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PalmTreeDude

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On 7/4/2022 at 11:20 PM, kinzyjr said:

@chinandega81 You bring up a lot of good points in your post.

There are palms and other plants that would have been unthinkable in both cities 20+ years ago.  You mentioned Miami was already urbanized in the 1980s so the impact couldn't be from just urbanization alone.  Likewise, when cities smaller than 30,000 people show a sharp warming trend, there must be more than urbanization in play.  Here are some 30-year intervals for Bartow which had a population of just under 20,000 people in 2020.  A 6F increase in 30 year averages over 100 years is a pretty significant increase.  That takes you from a low zone 9b to a mid-zone 10a and exponentially increases your options for exotic plants.

image.png.101b4d2103f9f41d3f94d9d801a93506.png

 

Quoted from the is miami warmer thread. 

The hardiness increase isn't linear here in Bartow/Lakeland FL. It dipped down for several decades late midcentury after a mild 20s to 50s era surrounding WW2. 

The late midcentury including famous 60s and 80s freezes and the 1977 snow and 79 blizzard era was colder. Likewise the 19th century (1800s) was cold after a mild 18th century with Royals reported NE of Orlando. 

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37 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

@PortCharlotteCocos advised me that the averages from Lakeland Linder (KLAL) are just a smidge short of the temperature threshold for tropical (January Daily Mean = 62.2 vs. 64.4).  With the UHI effect, it is possible that the Koppen threshold for temperature could be met in the City Hall/Hollis Gardens area.  Doesn't mean a whole lot because of the record and/or average lows, but kind of interesting none the less.  Winter Haven is pretty close as well.

202304112100_Lakeland_Wikipedia.jpg.a1aa73b4d3e6132a9b0edb160b391c0e.jpg

Some of these places that are near or over the 18C 64.4 F Koppen tropical threshold have record lows below 20, sometimes even below 15, not only a hard freeze but a deep freeze to levels associated with daytime highs that can be freezing (not tropical). SPI and south Texas are over 60F in January, but have been down to about 10 and just had low 20s in the 2021 freeze and power crisis. 

They have hotter summers but much drier and more continental winters. SFL and Miami Beach record lows are all milder at the same latitude compared to Texas. 

The same cold snap, 'translated' over to FL longtitude, would not have made south beach go below 30 vs 25 at SPI, or MIA and FTL break their 27 ish record, or 24 in WPB, like the low 20s in RGV Brownsville McAllen, and Orlando wouldn't have gone below 15 like Houston. 

Edited by Aceraceae
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4 minutes ago, Aceraceae said:

Quoted from the is miami warmer thread. 

The hardiness increase isn't linear here in Bartow/Lakeland FL. It dipped down for several decades late midcentury after a mild 20s to 50s era surrounding WW2. 

The late midcentury including famous 60s and 80s freezes and the 1977 snow and 79 blizzard era was colder. Likewise the 19th century (1800s) was cold after a mild 18th century with Royals reported NE of Orlando. 

I agree ;)   It's very cyclical and a lot of the events have parallel events. (Ex. 1835 freeze and 1985 freeze).  We've had a good run in Central Florida, but any winter could be the one.

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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1 hour ago, Aceraceae said:

Orlando wouldn't have gone below 15 like Houston. 

Orlando is a lot further south than Houston. North Florida and the corresponding latitude in Texas have near identical record lows. But it is somewhere around Orlando that record lows start to diverge due to the peninsular moderation and the effect is exaggerated every bit further south you go. Miami is more moderated than Tampico and is probably comparable to somewhere in northern Veracruz. A rapid jump in record lows and moderation also occurs around southern Tamaulipas into Veracruz as not only the latitude decreases but the coastline curves to the southeast and any Arctic air is moderated by the Gulf directly to the north and northwest whereas Tampico has land to the north and northwest. 

Ecology wise, the neotropical dominant flora and fauna starts just north of Tampico where record lows would be in the mid 20s. Crocodile, boa, and other tropical reptiles reach their northern limit just north of Tampico. In an extreme 500 year event like 1899, even the native vegetation would take a beating. 

Please no 1899 soon 😱image.jpg.1c8dff608757279277999570d4849337.jpg.05eaa00efa1652fccc35790c1ac751c8.jpg

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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On 9/18/2016 at 11:15 AM, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

So that definition means that bownsville, tx/ south texas coast would be classified as tropical as well?

Nah, January is too cold in Brownsville

Screen Shot 2023-04-12 at 10.24.59 AM.png

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On 10/9/2016 at 4:31 PM, DavidLee said:

Sorry Florida does not have any tropical regions. Just because Coconuts grow here does not mean the climate is tropical. Brazil's amazon area is tropical, wet and dry season is the only seasons they have. No Spring, No Summer, No Fall, No Winter.

Your subjective definition is waaayy too restrictive.

By your logic, most of the Caribbean is not tropical.

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On 10/9/2016 at 4:28 PM, Palmaceae said:

I think the reasoning here is true tropical areas are south of the tropic of cancer and north of the tropic of capricorn. But I also see the point concerning the Köppen definition, so this also has been a topic of conversation. Not sure what the true answer is, that is if there really is a true answer.

I am just happy I can grow tropical plants!  ;)

I've never understood the logic behind people who argue that. Maybe if they want to define tropical geographically speaking, but it is useless climatically.

Is Bogota tropical? Not at all despite its latitude...because of the geography.

Is Miami tropical? Yes, again despite its latitude....because of its geography

Edited by cocoforcoconuts
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13 hours ago, Xenon said:

Orlando is a lot further south than Houston. North Florida and the corresponding latitude in Texas have near identical record lows. But it is somewhere around Orlando that record lows start to diverge due to the peninsular moderation and the effect is exaggerated every bit further south you go. Miami is more moderated than Tampico and is probably comparable to somewhere in northern Veracruz. A rapid jump in record lows and moderation also occurs around southern Tamaulipas into Veracruz as not only the latitude decreases but the coastline curves to the southeast and any Arctic air is moderated by the Gulf directly to the north and northwest whereas Tampico has land to the north and northwest. 

Ecology wise, the neotropical dominant flora and fauna starts just north of Tampico where record lows would be in the mid 20s. Crocodile, boa, and other tropical reptiles reach their northern limit just north of Tampico. In an extreme 500 year event like 1899, even the native vegetation would take a beating. 

Please no 1899 soon 😱image.jpg.1c8dff608757279277999570d4849337.jpg.05eaa00efa1652fccc35790c1ac751c8.jpg

Bear in mind, many of these locations have seen lower record lows than this depiction of the 1899 freeze shows, especially for Central and South Florida.  Key West has been to 41F, Tavernier 37F (?), reading not shown on the map and Orlando 18F.  Heck, I believe West Palm Beach has been to 26F.

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On 10/11/2016 at 5:12 PM, Yunder Wækraus said:

 The problem here is that we are discussing three different things. First, there is the fact that the true tropics are wholly confined to that part of the earth between the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn. As I'm sure most of you know, it is only between those two points that the sun is directly overhead for at least one day out of the year. It is a fact, though not a defining fact, that many beautiful plants generally can only be found between the Tropic of Cancer and Capricorn.  So, when we discuss "tropical plants," what we are discussing are those plans which tend to be found in the true tropics. Of course, boundaries are never quite as sharp as one would like them to be, and there are some areas just outside of the true tropics in which many plans, which we consider to be tropical plants because they are otherwise confined to the tropics, do indeed grow. No part of Florida is within the two tropics; the line passes between the Keys and Cuba. However, if we define tropical zones as those parts of the earth in which plants which are otherwise confined to the tropics can also grow outside said tropics, then we have two different ways of including Florida into the tropical zone: first, we can invoke the Köppen classification system; Second, we can go by areas in which tropical plants are seen to grow (which would include points as far north as Merritt Island in Florida). So we are left with three definitions of tropical climate: climates which just so happen to be located between the Tropic of Capricorn and Tropic of Cancer;  climates which fit within the Köppen tropical zone; and climates which can support well-known tropical plants, such as coconuts. Of those three options, the Köppen one is by far the least useful. It is not based on geography, and, in general, it fails to actually cover zones which otherwise share the same flora.

Animals too. There are tropical species of fauna native to south Florida such as American Crocodiles. Not to mention all of the dozens of invasive tropical species from exotic strictly tropical places that thrive in south Florida.

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16 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

@PortCharlotteCocos advised me that the averages from Lakeland Linder (KLAL) are just a smidge short of the temperature threshold for tropical (January Daily Mean = 62.2 vs. 64.4).  With the UHI effect, it is possible that the Koppen threshold for temperature could be met in the City Hall/Hollis Gardens area.  Doesn't mean a whole lot because of the record and/or average lows, but kind of interesting none the less.  Winter Haven is pretty close as well.

202304112100_Lakeland_Wikipedia.jpg.a1aa73b4d3e6132a9b0edb160b391c0e.jpg

 

15 hours ago, Aceraceae said:

Some of these places that are near or over the 18C 64.4 F Koppen tropical threshold have record lows below 20, sometimes even below 15, not only a hard freeze but a deep freeze to levels associated with daytime highs that can be freezing (not tropical). SPI and south Texas are over 60F in January, but have been down to about 10 and just had low 20s in the 2021 freeze and power crisis. 

They have hotter summers but much drier and more continental winters. SFL and Miami Beach record lows are all milder at the same latitude compared to Texas. 

The same cold snap, 'translated' over to FL longtitude, would not have made south beach go below 30 vs 25 at SPI, or MIA and FTL break their 27 ish record, or 24 in WPB, like the low 20s in RGV Brownsville McAllen, and Orlando wouldn't have gone below 15 like Houston. 

Someone could probably make a pretty good zone map by taking the January mean temperature and subtracting the average daily range. That says how warm it gets, and how vulnerable it is to cold. A high average with a small range is ideal.

Lakeland would be 62.2 - (73.7 - 50.6) = 39.1

By comparison, St. Petersburg would be 62.1 - (69.8 - 54.3) = 46.6.

The end number doesn’t mean anything by itself, but would be good for comparison purposes. My back of envelope math puts Miami around 53.

Edited by RedRabbit
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On 9/18/2016 at 10:15 AM, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

So that definition means that bownsville, tx/ south texas coast would be classified as tropical as well?

not quite. the record low in brownsville is 16f (same as central london and tokyo for comparison), and that would be devastating to most fully tropical flora, even with fast warmup that Texas is known for. 
its also a bit too cold in the winter on average.

 

and i just replied to a 6 year old post. whoops

Edited by poof
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10b los angeles

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3 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

 

Someone could probably make a pretty good zone map by taking the January mean temperature and subtracting the average daily range. That says how warm it gets, and how vulnerable it is to cold. A high average with a small range is ideal.

Lakeland would be 62.2 - (73.7 - 50.6) = 39.1

By comparison, St. Petersburg would be 62.1 - (69.8 - 54.3) = 46.6.

The end number doesn’t mean anything by itself, but would be good for comparison purposes. My back of envelope math puts Miami around 53.

 

The problem with your formula is that the wider the average temperature swing, the lower the end result.  For example, let's say we have these numbers:

65 - (75 - 55) = 45.  Such a location is warmer than St. Petersburg by every metric, yet scores lower by your method. 

Edited by Jimbean
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Brevard County, Fl

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4 hours ago, Jimbean said:

 

The problem with your formula is that the wider the average temperature swing, the lower the end result.  For example, let's say we have these numbers:

65 - (75 - 55) = 45.  Such a location is warmer than St. Petersburg by every metric, yet scores lower by your method. 

My idea is that the bigger temperature range the less stable the climate. Less stability = more potential for extreme cold. The average matters too though as some astute members here have pointed out. 

For the example you gave, does that place actually exist? If it does, it would be interesting to test the theory! Those numbers are pretty close to Clewiston’s climate which I’m thinking may be a little less favorable than St. Pete when it comes to growing tropical plants.

Edited by RedRabbit
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25 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

For the example you gave, does that place actually exist? If it does, it would be interesting to test the theory! Those numbers are pretty close to Clewiston’s climate which I’m thinking may be a little less favorable than St. Pete when it comes to growing tropical plants.

Yes, places like Ft. Myers, Naples Airport and Everglades City.  Even places like Homestead.  St. Pete is not going to overcome the sheer latitude difference, especially in a 100 or 500 year freeze. 

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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16 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

My idea is that the bigger temperature range the less stable the climate. Less stability = more potential for extreme cold. The average matters too though as some astute members here have pointed out. 

For the example you gave, does that place actually exist? If it does, it would be interesting to test the theory! Those numbers are pretty close to Clewiston’s climate which I’m thinking may be a little less favorable than St. Pete when it comes to growing tropical plants.

Melbourne: 63.3 - (73.2 - 53.5) = 43.6

St. Petersburg: 62.1 - (69.8 - 54.3) = 46.6.

Melbourne is warmer except for the average low, which is 0.8F cooler, and scores 3F less on that index

Record low for Melboure is either 17F set in January 1977 or 19F set in December 1983.  Record low for St. Petersburg is 22 set in December 1962, if I remember correctly.

 

Untitled.png.1aa75f7f21c2c3f16e0dde848c72b882.png

Brevard County, Fl

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22 hours ago, Xenon said:

Yes, places like Ft. Myers, Naples Airport and Everglades City.  Even places like Homestead.  St. Pete is not going to overcome the sheer latitude difference, especially in a 100 or 500 year freeze. 

Naples airport is a good example and might bust my theory. I still think the general idea has merit, but can probably be expressed better.

5 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Melbourne: 63.3 - (73.2 - 53.5) = 43.6

St. Petersburg: 62.1 - (69.8 - 54.3) = 46.6.

Melbourne is warmer except for the average low, which is 0.8F cooler, and scores 3F less on that index

Record low for Melboure is either 17F set in January 1977 or 19F set in December 1983.  Record low for St. Petersburg is 22 set in December 1962, if I remember correctly.

 

Untitled.png.1aa75f7f21c2c3f16e0dde848c72b882.png

That seems pretty well in line with my theory. Less stable climate = more extreme cold. Melbourne has been a good bit colder than St. Pete so it seems to hold there at least. 

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On 4/12/2023 at 12:32 PM, cocoforcoconuts said:

Your subjective definition is waaayy too restrictive.

By your logic, most of the Caribbean is not tropical.

Not at all. Seems like you've never lived in the tropics. If it dropped to 50°F/10°C, people would freeze to death. How cold does it get in Manila, Penang, or Cairns?

I checked for Cairns. It's 6°C in 1919, 1932, and 1946. That's like 5 sigma below the mean. Forget Köppen.

Mackay (@-19°lat) has a minimum recorded of 7.8° since 1950.

Edited by SeanK
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5 hours ago, SeanK said:

Not at all. Seems like you've never lived in the tropics. If it dropped to 50°F/10°C, people would freeze to death. How cold does it get in Manila, Penang, or Cairns?

I checked for Cairns. It's 6°C in 1919, 1932, and 1946. That's like 5 sigma below the mean. Forget Köppen.

Mackay (@-19°lat) has a minimum recorded of 7.8° since 1950.

Actually I have lived in Thailand and Belize, but thank you for your false assumption Mr. Atlanta.

6ºC for Cairns? That's cute, the record low for Belize City is 10.9ºC.

That's besides the point anyways. Your relative comfort is a completely useless and arbitrary metric for delineating climate zones. Can you do that? Sure I guess, but what utility does that provide?

Your own example would not even qualify as tropical based off the criteria the other poster put forth to which I contested ("wet and dry season is the only seasons they have. No Spring, No Summer, No Fall, No Winter"). Cairns shows clear seasonal variation with a January daily mean of 27.9ºC (82.2ºF) and July daily mean of 21.7ºC (71.1ºF) with the average lows between those 2 months dropping from 24.0ºC (75.2ºF) to 17.2ºC (63.0ºF). THAT is the point, his criteria is waaay too restrictive.

I argue the flora and fauna that can survive is the most useful metric for classifying a climate. There is a reason why the landscaped flora of South Florida is completely different from the rest of the southeastern United States (even north Florida or adjacent inland central Florida), yet virtually identical to the Caribbean.

I reference landscaping because native flora of course relies upon more than just climate since you are dealing with natural dispersal corridors/barriers, and South Florida is contiguous with the subtropics to the north, but isolated from the tropics to the south. Fauna of course has more dispersal ability and unsurprisingly, you see native fauna in South Florida that are tropical species at the northern extent of their range such as American crocodiles and coral reefs (not to say there is not native tropical flora as well such as royal palms, mahogany, etc.). Not to mention the literal hundreds of nonnative/invasive species from the equatorial tropics that THRIVE in South Florida but are climate restricted from northward expansion.

It is conspicuously obvious to anyone with eyes that the flora and fauna climate transition barrier lies between Central and South Florida with overlap along coastal Central Florida (I am of the position that while coastal Central Florida is of course not tropical, there should be a new classification indicating a transitional zone as it is silly to call the climate of Anna Maria Island the same as Richmond, Virginia considering the clear difference in flora and fauna survivability), so I ask again, what is the utility in grouping South Florida with the regions to the north based off your comfort during the colder months?

Final point, yes there are some uber sensitive species that can only survive in the absolute most equatorial climates with no seasonal variation such as lipstick palms, but they are the exception rather than the norm. If you want to recognize the minor variation of species survivability amongst tropical climates and create a separate category for equatorial climates with near zero variation as the other poster argued, then call that something else ("equatorial" climate for example) because the tropical climate refers to the general* climate you see in the tropics, i.e. the regions between the tropic of cancer and tropic of capricorn.

*Of course there is more nuance, hence the "general".  As I stated in a previous post, geography has a role to play which is why Bogota is not tropical at all despite its position well within the tropics, yet Miami is despite being just a tad north.

Edited by cocoforcoconuts
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15 hours ago, cocoforcoconuts said:

Actually I have lived in Thailand and Belize, but thank you for your false assumption Mr. Atlanta.

6ºC for Cairns? That's cute, the record low for Belize City is 10.9ºC.

That's besides the point anyways. Your relative comfort is a completely useless and arbitrary metric for delineating climate zones. Can you do that? Sure I guess, but what utility does that provide?

Your own example would not even qualify as tropical based off the criteria the other poster put forth to which I contested ("wet and dry season is the only seasons they have. No Spring, No Summer, No Fall, No Winter"). Cairns shows clear seasonal variation with a January daily mean of 27.9ºC (82.2ºF) and July daily mean of 21.7ºC (71.1ºF) with the average lows between those 2 months dropping from 24.0ºC (75.2ºF) to 17.2ºC (63.0ºF). THAT is the point, his criteria is waaay too restrictive.

I argue the flora and fauna that can survive is the most useful metric for classifying a climate. There is a reason why the landscaped flora of South Florida is completely different from the rest of the southeastern United States (even north Florida or adjacent inland central Florida), yet virtually identical to the Caribbean.

I reference landscaping because native flora of course relies upon more than just climate since you are dealing with natural dispersal corridors/barriers, and South Florida is contiguous with the subtropics to the north, but isolated from the tropics to the south. Fauna of course has more dispersal ability and unsurprisingly, you see native fauna in South Florida that are tropical species at the northern extent of their range such as American crocodiles and coral reefs (not to say there is not native tropical flora as well such as royal palms, mahogany, etc.). Not to mention the literal hundreds of nonnative/invasive species from the equatorial tropics that THRIVE in South Florida but are climate restricted from northward expansion.

It is conspicuously obvious to anyone with eyes that the flora and fauna climate transition barrier lies between Central and South Florida with overlap along coastal Central Florida (I am of the position that while coastal Central Florida is of course not tropical, there should be a new classification indicating a transitional zone as it is silly to call the climate of Anna Maria Island the same as Richmond, Virginia considering the clear difference in flora and fauna survivability), so I ask again, what is the utility in grouping South Florida with the regions to the north based off your comfort during the colder months?

Final point, yes there are some uber sensitive species that can only survive in the absolute most equatorial climates with no seasonal variation such as lipstick palms, but they are the exception rather than the norm. If you want to recognize the minor variation of species survivability amongst tropical climates and create a separate category for equatorial climates with near zero variation as the other poster argued, then call that something else ("equatorial" climate for example) because the tropical climate refers to the general* climate you see in the tropics, i.e. the regions between the tropic of cancer and tropic of capricorn.

*Of course there is more nuance, hence the "general".  As I stated in a previous post, geography has a role to play which is why Bogota is not tropical at all despite its position well within the tropics, yet Miami is despite being just a tad north.

6°C for 70 winters. I'd say about 5 sigma below average minimum. Since you've lived in the tropics, you know what I mean. Iguanas don't fall from the trees in the tropics. Can you grow C.renda in Miami? Yeah, but that's pretty much its limit. Never saw one in WPB or Orlando or Naples.

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2 hours ago, bubba said:

This C renda has done quite well.D24DF0F5-47D0-4C0E-8C03-BB5D1BDDC484.thumb.jpeg.978f871ef2bdabee71411f25be437622.jpeg

Thank you. You're in the Miami area, right? And there's spotting on the leaflets. 

My comments are planned to give readers realistic expectations what will grow well where they live. If we have to cover things in the winter, it becomes a burden once they reach 2 meters height.

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These are north of Addison Mizner’s old monkey jungle located in PB. It is a good deal north of Miami and no special measures have been taken whatsoever to protect it from cold.

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12 hours ago, SeanK said:

6°C for 70 winters. I'd say about 5 sigma below average minimum. Since you've lived in the tropics, you know what I mean. Iguanas don't fall from the trees in the tropics. Can you grow C.renda in Miami? Yeah, but that's pretty much its limit. Never saw one in WPB or Orlando or Naples.

So your evidence that Miami is not tropical is.....one of the most cold sensitive plants on the planet.....can still grow there? Thanks for confirming my point.  Also, why even mention Orlando? I very unambiguously stated inland Central Florida is in no way tropical (nor even coastal C.F.) as evidenced by the clearly visible difference in the flora and fauna there.

And iguanas going into torpor (but not dying) during infrequent cold snaps every few years? You have not offered any sort of logic as to why that should render South Florida not tropical, because again, there is no utility in drawing lines around torpor frequency between SoFLo and the Caribbean. Green iguanas still thrive in South Florida all the same

9 hours ago, SeanK said:

Thank you. You're in the Miami area, right? And there's spotting on the leaflets. 

My comments are planned to give readers realistic expectations what will grow well where they live. If we have to cover things in the winter, it becomes a burden once they reach 2 meters height.

Yet they do no such thing seeing as telling people they should adhere to subtropical standards for landscaping if they live in South Florida is utter nonsense, as evidenced by just walking around there and opening your eyes. 

If you want to discuss the odd exception of a select few ultra-cold sensitive equatorial plants (that don't even thrive throughout the entirety of the tropics for that matter), then say so specifically addressing them. But don't make broad sweeping generalizations based off those exceptions, and if you are going to, at least offer an example that will not survive in South Florida lol

11 hours ago, bubba said:

This C renda has done quite well.D24DF0F5-47D0-4C0E-8C03-BB5D1BDDC484.thumb.jpeg.978f871ef2bdabee71411f25be437622.jpeg

Living the good "subtropical" life 😂

I'll repeat my unanswered question from before, what is the utility in grouping South Florida with the regions to the north when the flora and fauna survivability is completely different to those places but virtually the same as its tropical neighbors to the immediate south?

Edited by cocoforcoconuts
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On 4/22/2023 at 3:18 PM, cocoforcoconuts said:

Actually I have lived in Thailand and Belize, but thank you for your false assumption Mr. Atlanta.

6ºC for Cairns? That's cute, the record low for Belize City is 10.9ºC.

That's besides the point anyways. Your relative comfort is a completely useless and arbitrary metric for delineating climate zones. Can you do that? Sure I guess, but what utility does that provide?

Your own example would not even qualify as tropical based off the criteria the other poster put forth to which I contested ("wet and dry season is the only seasons they have. No Spring, No Summer, No Fall, No Winter"). Cairns shows clear seasonal variation with a January daily mean of 27.9ºC (82.2ºF) and July daily mean of 21.7ºC (71.1ºF) with the average lows between those 2 months dropping from 24.0ºC (75.2ºF) to 17.2ºC (63.0ºF). THAT is the point, his criteria is waaay too restrictive.

I argue the flora and fauna that can survive is the most useful metric for classifying a climate. There is a reason why the landscaped flora of South Florida is completely different from the rest of the southeastern United States (even north Florida or adjacent inland central Florida), yet virtually identical to the Caribbean.

I reference landscaping because native flora of course relies upon more than just climate since you are dealing with natural dispersal corridors/barriers, and South Florida is contiguous with the subtropics to the north, but isolated from the tropics to the south. Fauna of course has more dispersal ability and unsurprisingly, you see native fauna in South Florida that are tropical species at the northern extent of their range such as American crocodiles and coral reefs (not to say there is not native tropical flora as well such as royal palms, mahogany, etc.). Not to mention the literal hundreds of nonnative/invasive species from the equatorial tropics that THRIVE in South Florida but are climate restricted from northward expansion.

It is conspicuously obvious to anyone with eyes that the flora and fauna climate transition barrier lies between Central and South Florida with overlap along coastal Central Florida (I am of the position that while coastal Central Florida is of course not tropical, there should be a new classification indicating a transitional zone as it is silly to call the climate of Anna Maria Island the same as Richmond, Virginia considering the clear difference in flora and fauna survivability), so I ask again, what is the utility in grouping South Florida with the regions to the north based off your comfort during the colder months?

Final point, yes there are some uber sensitive species that can only survive in the absolute most equatorial climates with no seasonal variation such as lipstick palms, but they are the exception rather than the norm. If you want to recognize the minor variation of species survivability amongst tropical climates and create a separate category for equatorial climates with near zero variation as the other poster argued, then call that something else ("equatorial" climate for example) because the tropical climate refers to the general* climate you see in the tropics, i.e. the regions between the tropic of cancer and tropic of capricorn.

*Of course there is more nuance, hence the "general".  As I stated in a previous post, geography has a role to play which is why Bogota is not tropical at all despite its position well within the tropics, yet Miami is despite being just a tad north.

It would be nice if you could specifically address and refute the premises to my argument rather than just vaguely ask how commonly do you see a particular ultra cold-sensitive equatorial species in SoFlo.

Edited by cocoforcoconuts
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23 minutes ago, __nevii said:

Why do you say that?

Because it's z10b. Minimum temp 35°F. 

That's not tropical. Even cocoforcoconuts knows that. At 35°, you can have frost.

One might argue about Freeport, GBI which hit 3°C in 1977 and 5°C in 2022. However, those are more outliers than are Miami's z11 temps.

Edited by SeanK
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On 4/12/2023 at 1:05 PM, RedRabbit said:

 

Someone could probably make a pretty good zone map by taking the January mean temperature and subtracting the average daily range. That says how warm it gets, and how vulnerable it is to cold. A high average with a small range is ideal.

Lakeland would be 62.2 - (73.7 - 50.6) = 39.1

By comparison, St. Petersburg would be 62.1 - (69.8 - 54.3) = 46.6.

The end number doesn’t mean anything by itself, but would be good for comparison purposes. My back of envelope math puts Miami around 53.

It would be interesting to compare SoFL stats with coastal QLD. I saw somewhere a comparison of Brisbane to Miami.

 

Oz_Koppen.JPG

Oz_USDA.JPG

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I never really worried too much over whether South Florida is tropical or subtropical.  I suspect it’s likely somewhere in between.   Most of the trees around town are palm trees of one kind or another, so it looks and feels very tropical.    Most of these get zero care from regular people, aside from lawn irrigation.   They are just regular “trees” to locals.   

There is a hot-wet and warm-dry season, without what most people would consider “seasons”.   It hits the 40s at night a couple times, briefly some years, and sometimes the high 30s some years.   Almost every day of the year it reaches 70 degrees during the day, regardless of the month, except for a few cold days.   

Those cold days limit growing the uber-tropical stuff, that is less cold hardy than C. renda.   The real limitation for many palms is the soil and dry season though.   The soil in many areas is high pH sand or limestone, and the dry season is long and very hot at times.  There are desert-like conditions for long stretches of months sometimes, and the soil is also desert-like near the coast.  

You can grow a lot of regular palms (Foxtails, Coconuts, Adonidia, etc…) with little care, and a lot of finicky tropical palms with critical care if you’re willing to amend a lot and pour on the water, but you can’t grow every palm that grows in rainforests.   Some die from the cold, some melt from the heat of 85 degree nighttime lows, others die from the soil and nematodes.  

Overall, I’m focusing a lot more on native, and Cuban, and Caribbean, and Reunion/Round Island palms lately, because they are very happy here, and still rare enough to be interesting, and are overjoyed to get some TLC, while still allowing you to take a vacation sometimes.  

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Here’s an example from Fort Lauderdale 2022….

We had 10 out of 365 days that it did not reach a high temp of 70 degrees during the day in 2022.   Those days limit certain palms.   
 

December 25th-27th 2022 I got the most cold damage I’ve seen at the house yet….  Some bromeliads burned moderately.  All my palms were fine.   It seemed to be caused by 50 degree daytime highs, more than the nighttime lows….

ED596F22-54D5-4AA4-A5C7-637E00ED6951.thumb.jpeg.2ba5e9d9a45cf6b3e4f4740a85581789.jpeg

January had the coldest night, but that didn’t seem to cause any damage.   

FD850FD5-8366-4C36-979A-0B1AD51F3CF9.thumb.jpeg.efb6670e2aff2c4bc20ab7174ba18640.jpeg

Still it does get cool here for short periods every year.   
99E6A9CB-2776-4FC1-99AC-01B9E3B58FA5.thumb.jpeg.2f78e347fe0aeb07064db42f23a375d9.jpeg

Frost forms as surface temps reach freezing temperature.   That temperature number is defined by water turning to a solid.  Thermometers located above the area may be warmer than the surface with frost, but that surface is always at 32F/0C or below.   That’s why frost appears to form when temps appear to read higher than 32F.  The thermometer isn’t the same temp as the surface the frost on on.  

I’ve never seen frost here, but I’ve only lived here 13 or 14 years.  

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7 hours ago, SeanK said:

 

Oz_USDA.JPG

1 Needle Palm Sabal minor

2 Windmill palm (cool summer) Sabal palmetto (hot summer)

3 Chinese fam palm L. chinensis

4 majesty palm christmas palm king palm

5 lower coconut palm level in high heat/humidity (FL not CA), at least washies even in cool coast mediterannean and oceanic climes

6 coconuts even in marginal humidity or rainy winter med climates (Israel, San Diego SW desert Puerto Penasco northern Mexico), to C. renda in SFL

7 C. renda and breadfruit equatorial almost everywhere, but this could even tropical highlands where cocos would still be marginal in a cool zone 13 

-- 

an 8 or zone 14 would be mean min above 68 F / 20 C or 70 F 21 C ultratropical equatorial islands (Palmyra Atoll, Nauru), to tropical deserts too extreme for life such as Dallol Ethiopia, in a -400 ft (-125 meters) elevation polyextreme valley, the Danakil Depression.  Nauru is the most equatorial climate on Earth, every month has an average low of 77/25 C and rainfall is more even than in monsoonal Palmyra Atoll, which is also regarded as most tropical-oceanicity index. 

0 could be a band just outside of zone 1 where the mildest winters are survivable but protection is mostly necessary, such as Boston/NYC/long island and Nantucket, and even unfrozen Great Lakes microclimates Cleveland/Buffalo Rochester NY. 

Edited by Aceraceae
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On 4/22/2023 at 10:18 PM, cocoforcoconuts said:

 

Final point, yes there are some uber sensitive species that can only survive in the absolute most equatorial climates with no seasonal variation such as lipstick palms, but they are the exception rather than the norm. 

Lipstick palms definitely are not cold hardy or cool tolerant palms but they can take some cooler, but still warm weather. In Santa Cruz de Tenerife which just makes it as a tropical koppen climate, with the coldest month being 18.9c/66.1f, there is a lipstick palm there that seems to be doing pretty well. This winter I'm pretty sure it had no protection. The temperature in the coldest month there has an average max of 21c/70fc and low of 16c/61f.  Not bad for 28N (the same latitude as Orlando FL). Record low there is 9.5c/49.1f.

Screenshot_20230425-044030820 (1).jpg

Edited by Foxpalms
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14 hours ago, SeanK said:

Miami is subtropical. 

And once again you refuse to address any of my arguments because you know your claim is completely illogical and you cannot refute them.

Enjoy your personal arbitrary temperature threshold of no utility and resulting delusion. Meanwhile, the official Koppen classification and common sense dictates it is absolutely indeed tropical.

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13 hours ago, SeanK said:

Because it's z10b. Minimum temp 35°F. 

That's not tropical. Even cocoforcoconuts knows that. At 35°, you can have frost.

One might argue about Freeport, GBI which hit 3°C in 1977 and 5°C in 2022. However, those are more outliers than are Miami's z11 temps.

Your argument gets worse the more you elaborate. Hardiness zones are now what dictate climate?!

I guess Tijuana and Miami have the same climate then

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5 hours ago, SeanK said:

January 19, 1977

 

21 hours ago, cocoforcoconuts said:

And once again you refuse to address any of my arguments because you know your claim is completely illogical and you cannot refute them.

Enjoy your personal arbitrary temperature threshold of no utility and resulting delusion. Meanwhile, the official Koppen classification and common sense dictates it is absolutely indeed tropical.

Seeing a theme here in your comments

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On 4/25/2023 at 11:34 PM, cocoforcoconuts said:

 

Seeing a theme here in your comments

Did it snow in Thailand or Belize?

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2 hours ago, SeanK said:

Did it snow in Thailand or Belize?

It has in Thailand. So Thailand isn’t tropical then I guess. 

https://thethaiger.com/news/national/doi-inthanon-in-chaing-mai-spots-first-frozen-dew-of-the-year/amp

Zone 8b, Csb (Warm-summer Mediterranean climate). 1,940 annual sunshine hours 
Annual lows-> 19/20: -5.0C, 20/21: -5.5C, 21/22: -8.3C, 22/23: -9.4C, 23/24: 1.1C (so far!)

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10 hours ago, ShadyDan said:

Well, I guess not at high altitude. Has it snowed in the mountains of Colombia or Hawaii? Those areas must be rated differently than sea-level.

 

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On 4/24/2023 at 12:10 PM, SeanK said:

Because it's z10b. Minimum temp 35°F. 

That's not tropical. Even cocoforcoconuts knows that. At 35°, you can have frost.

One might argue about Freeport, GBI which hit 3°C in 1977 and 5°C in 2022. However, those are more outliers than are Miami's z11 temps.

That's incorrect. The mean minimum temp for 1993-2022 (past 30 years) is 43 according to Nowdata. That means Miami is 11a.

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