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Washingtonia filifera seedling variation


Las Palmas Norte

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On 5/10/2023 at 4:57 PM, jwitt said:

Not only laugh, but love water

 

palm-canyon-washingtonia-filifera-roots-water.jpg

Dry heat + unlimited groundwater  =  happy washingtonias. As long as soil drains decently well i'm not sure you can overwater them in summer. I water my seedlings from trays and they are thirty almost daily. I always throw seeds next to creek for that reason because they pop up easily. 

What they don't like and what leads to root rot is cool damp weather that entire soaks the entire rootball. Winter they need drastically less water, and a groundwater source gives them some degree of control over water intake as opposed to being inundated inconsistently from above. 

 

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On 5/10/2023 at 4:57 PM, jwitt said:

Not only laugh, but love water

 

palm-canyon-washingtonia-filifera-roots-water.jpg


here’s a 4 month Timelapse of a volunteer Washingtonia that was 6 months old roughly at time of 2nd pic. It grew so quickly because it received daily water from irrigation and full sun.

45A9548A-CD28-49C0-8E6B-439A94841FC8.jpeg

46BACBE6-C87D-47ED-8361-4A137DFEC6DF.jpeg

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1 hour ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Dry heat + unlimited groundwater  =  happy washingtonias. As long as soil drains decently well i'm not sure you can overwater them in summer. I water my seedlings from trays and they are thirty almost daily. I always throw seeds next to creek for that reason because they pop up easily. 

What they don't like and what leads to root rot is cool damp weather that entire soaks the entire rootball. Winter they need drastically less water, and a groundwater source gives them some degree of control over water intake as opposed to being inundated inconsistently from above. 

 

So now it is root rot. 

I just find it strange you just don't find them growing wild(in the desert) other than swamps or other wet areas.  

Can't think of many climates wetter and or cooler than Eureka, Ca or Brooking, Or. But yet there they are. 

Heck, I know of more than a half dozen that survived the lowest documented temperatures for this species while in a year round water table of less than 5'.  This in a climate with average winter lows in the teens.  Can also throw in intermittent rain and snow.  Even several feet of snow at once.  Heck they grow in the middle of the world's largest contiguous cottonwood forest in the world, which says nothing but wet roots. 

The simple fact of these palms thriving in Mediterranean climates worldwide says otherwise.  Winter wet, summer dry.....

Seems to me they do fairly well in your climate. Until:  the sudden "flash" freeze, preceded by actively growing weather, then the week(s) after of clouds, wet,  and freeze that is harmful in certain climates. 

The plant itself is suffering from the start just by being started in a pot.  That is a evolutionary trait of this palm and it's need for water.  They suffer in a pot. 

Heck, tremendous growth from these palms has been documented In your state by direct sowing. Much moreso than transplanting from a pot. 

If it was root rot, filifera would be falling over in those Texas winds. 

Heck, filifera trunks show scarring like seen in Texas is not really found much elsewhere.  Why?

Heck, wasn't filifera one of the "better" performers coming out of palmageddon?

Your picture of the incredible volunteer growth is actually telling. I'll bet that palms water intake mostly is deep(not irrigation), but supplied from the parking lot and roadway runoff, or at least the wetter soil under both. And I bet those roots are well under that parking lot soaking up year round water.  Otherwise that median it is growing in would full on grass(prairie).

So in my mind, that palms future worry is not the wet, but moreso the flash freeze followed by clouds with no warmup for week(s).  

On the other hand, they seem to do great for sometime in N Texas regardless of wet and dry years.  That being said, one would naturally conclude some other factors must come into play. 

It's the extreme flash freeze and what follows that threaten the longevity of this palm in your climate.  The suddenness and longevity of these events are not seen much elsewhere.........at least in my mind. 

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47 minutes ago, jwitt said:

So now it is root rot. 

I just find it strange you just don't find them growing wild(in the desert) other than swamps or other wet areas.  

Can't think of many climates wetter and or cooler than Eureka, Ca or Brooking, Or. But yet there they are. 

Heck, I know of more than a half dozen that survived the lowest documented temperatures for this species while in a year round water table of less than 5'.  This in a climate with average winter lows in the teens.  Can also throw in intermittent rain and snow.  Even several feet of snow at once.  Heck they grow in the middle of the world's largest contiguous cottonwood forest in the world, which says nothing but wet roots. 

The simple fact of these palms thriving in Mediterranean climates worldwide says otherwise.  Winter wet, summer dry.....

Seems to me they do fairly well in your climate. Until:  the sudden "flash" freeze, preceded by actively growing weather, then the week(s) after of clouds, wet,  and freeze that is harmful in certain climates. 

The plant itself is suffering from the start just by being started in a pot.  That is a evolutionary trait of this palm and it's need for water.  They suffer in a pot. 

Heck, tremendous growth from these palms has been documented In your state by direct sowing. Much moreso than transplanting from a pot. 

If it was root rot, filifera would be falling over in those Texas winds. 

Heck, filifera trunks show scarring like seen in Texas is not really found much elsewhere.  Why?

Heck, wasn't filifera one of the "better" performers coming out of palmageddon?

Your picture of the incredible volunteer growth is actually telling. I'll bet that palms water intake mostly is deep(not irrigation), but supplied from the parking lot and roadway runoff, or at least the wetter soil under both. And I bet those roots are well under that parking lot soaking up year round water.  Otherwise that median it is growing in would full on grass(prairie).

So in my mind, that palms future worry is not the wet, but moreso the flash freeze followed by clouds with no warmup for week(s).  

On the other hand, they seem to do great for sometime in N Texas regardless of wet and dry years.  That being said, one would naturally conclude some other factors must come into play. 

It's the extreme flash freeze and what follows that threaten the longevity of this palm in your climate.  The suddenness and longevity of these events are not seen much elsewhere.........at least in my mind. 

 

Obviously, they are only prone to root rot during winter, that's why not one single person in the history of the world has ever recommended not cutting back on watering during winter. Washie filiferas are serious desert plants, Heat + a groundwater source is how you get 30 foot tall washingtonia in a dozen years here. On the other hand, having a filifera planted in swampy soil that doesn't drain well is how you get root rot, and that's why it's difficult to find them in climates like zone 8 PNW, and why they start having issues in the teens in humid climates. Additionally, having access to a groundwater supply and being able to effectively regulate water intake is in no way similar to being drenched from above at inconsistent intervals

The bottom line is the more cold humidity they have to endure, the more likely they are to get bacterial or fungal rots. Clearly being in a desert climate you've never encountered this - have you ever actually found a single study proving this? I'm all ears if so I'm trying to learn more like anyone and am only basing my opinion off every single thing I've ever read

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by DreaminAboutPalms
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13 minutes ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Obviously, there is a major difference between having a groundwater source and  they are only prone to root rot during colder times of year, that's why not one single person in the history of the world has ever recommended not cutting back on watering during winter. Washie filiferas are serious desert plants, Heat + a groundwater source is how you get 30 foot tall washingtonia in a dozen years here. On the other hand, having a filifera planted in swampy soil that doesn't drain well is how you get root rot, and that's why it's difficult to find them in climates like zone 8 PNW. 

The more humidity they have to endure, the more likely they are to get bacterial or fungal rots. Clearly being in a desert climate you've never encountered this. Have you ever found a single study proving this?

Additionally, having access to a groundwater supply and being able to effectively regulate water intake is in no way similar to being drenched from above at inconsistent intervals

 

 

 

 

Looks like the solar stopped the fungus!

 

 

20230506203212.jpg

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Cold humidity?

Like winter? ABQ vs Dallas

Pretty close.  

Or could it be other factors?average-relative-humidity-united-states-of-america-albuquerque-us.webp.acb9adaa42dc2b48cf0041f291087fd5.webpaverage-relative-humidity-united-states-of-america-dallas.webp.c999e40a09d6dcb75ec7d00794981a21.webp

 

 

 

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I think most z8's are going to find some difficulty overwintering a filifera seedling outdoors. 

But take those z8 filifera and overwinter under leaves and I bet they fare better.  Even with the higher humidity under the leaves. 

And yes, they are much more tender when young.  Moreso when they are actively growing. 

 

 

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, jwitt said:

I think most z8's are going to find some difficulty overwintering a filifera seedling outdoors. 

But take those z8 filifera and overwinter under leaves and I bet they fare better.  Even with the higher humidity under the leaves. 

And yes, they are much more tender when young.  Moreso when they are actively growing. 

 

 

 

 

 

The seedlings can get by just fine usually simply because they’re shielded from everything, it’s when they get a little bit bigger and trunk that they are a little more vulnerable to the effects of wind - I’ve lost some this way 

Here’s one in a parking lot facing northwest that survived December

AF8BA730-3733-4A3E-8D47-2681D86E07DF.jpeg

Edited by DreaminAboutPalms
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2 hours ago, jwitt said:

Cold humidity?

Like winter? ABQ vs Dallas

Pretty close.  

Or could it be other factors?average-relative-humidity-united-states-of-america-albuquerque-us.webp.acb9adaa42dc2b48cf0041f291087fd5.webpaverage-relative-humidity-united-states-of-america-dallas.webp.c999e40a09d6dcb75ec7d00794981a21.webp

 

 

 

other factors are certainly at play without a doubt and I can think of about 20, but Dallas essentially sits on the continental divide, and as soon as you go east it turn into humid subtropical and Vice versa. As soon as you go east of the 35, Filiferas become less and less common. And hybrids take up a higher proportion of Washingtonia you see
 

Dallas isn’t overly humid in the winter, but sitting on a sort of continental divide between Humid and dry, some years it is more so than others. The difference between humidity in the low 50’s versus it being close to 70 is pretty significant though and cities with that margin of difference have vastly different landscapes.

Filifera aren’t water intolerant, they just do not like lots of water in the crown, and too much leads to the black spots and during freeze events can lead to rot. and in dryer climates the water will evaporate faster. But like you said, there are other factors at stake - one of the most significant being that Texas warms up super quick post freeze. Often times Washingtonia will have a newish frond rot down close to the base inside a crown after a hard freeze with a lot of ice, and because it warms up fast the spear starts moving right away again and it doesn’t stay in the crown and rot everything else like in the pic below. I’ve had this same thing happen multiple times to different Washingtonia
 

Honestly though Texas really is not really a good climate to measure the wet cold tolerance of Filiferas because the ability of Texas to quickly warm up after the freeze allows them to survive other conditions that are less than ideal and that’s a much stronger factor than the wet cold tolerance. Not only that but even out of the 50+ 2 story plus Washingtonia alive in DFW the Majority are fairly hybridized

2DEEB811-359B-4F34-81CF-ADE0F73164F2.jpeg

Edited by DreaminAboutPalms
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4 hours ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:


 

Dallas isn’t overly humid in the winter, but sitting on a sort of continental divide between Humid and dry, some years it is more so than others. The difference between humidity in the low 50’s versus it being close to 70 is pretty significant though and cities with that margin of difference have vastly different landscapes.


 

Honestly though Texas really is not really a good climate to measure the wet cold tolerance of Filiferas because the ability of Texas to quickly warm up after the freeze allows them to survive 

If you average the 3 winter months for both cities, one come in at mid 50's and the other mid 60's.  You think that is what determines landscape.  Little hint, dewpoint is the real measurement of moisture in the air.  Since the dewpoint can never be below the air temperature,   35f degree air is dry, regardless of the humidity. Kind of like the world's highest dewpoints happen in deserts bordering water(Persian gulf), the hotter the air, the more moisture it can hold. 

Can you identify a deep freeze(below 10f) at DFW with a quick warmup?  There in lies the truth.  

Seems to me and my colder climate, that DFW big freezes are 100's of hours longer than our longest.  Duration?

I think it is the non warmup after the event that caused palmageddon. Not to mention 2011 in DFW, or the 1980's.  It's the consecutive hours below freezing post the big freeze that are lethal. That weather is usually cloudy and windy in DFW, for literally a week if not more. 

I won't mention that palmageddon happened after basically a zone 10 winter in N Dallas in mid February.  Warmest on record up to that event(29f on 2 nights). 

Meanwhile, you claim water or humidity is what kills em there(at least the ones in pots), yet show multiple examples of them naturalizing.  I believe, the clue is in this fact, or what mother nature is showing us. 

Kind of like keeping a live oak in a pot.....

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1 hour ago, BigBilly said:

Do filfera die to root rot or just plain humidity ?

Good question

Or maybe seedlings are more sensitive when constrained in a pot?

IMG_8698 (1).JPG

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3 minutes in seedlings growing naturally how nature intended

 

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9 hours ago, jwitt said:

3 minutes in seedlings growing naturally how nature intended

 

Sounds like you think that it's breaking news that washingtonia have access to water in their natural environment, and that because of this it means that they do just as well in humid swampy climates as they do in their natural environment.

Crown watering is the same to the palm as having roots access a water table right? 

Perhaps the rot is from not watering enough? 

Edited by DreaminAboutPalms
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14 hours ago, jwitt said:

If you average the 3 winter months for both cities, one come in at mid 50's and the other mid 60's.  You think that is what determines landscape.  Little hint, dewpoint is the real measurement of moisture in the air.  Since the dewpoint can never be below the air temperature,   35f degree air is dry, regardless of the humidity. Kind of like the world's highest dewpoints happen in deserts bordering water(Persian gulf), the hotter the air, the more moisture it can hold. 

Can you identify a deep freeze(below 10f) at DFW with a quick warmup?  There in lies the truth.  

Seems to me and my colder climate, that DFW big freezes are 100's of hours longer than our longest.  Duration?

I think it is the non warmup after the event that caused palmageddon. Not to mention 2011 in DFW, or the 1980's.  It's the consecutive hours below freezing post the big freeze that are lethal. That weather is usually cloudy and windy in DFW, for literally a week if not more. 

I won't mention that palmageddon happened after basically a zone 10 winter in N Dallas in mid February.  Warmest on record up to that event(29f on 2 nights). 

Meanwhile, you claim water or humidity is what kills em there(at least the ones in pots), yet show multiple examples of them naturalizing.  I believe, the clue is in this fact, or what mother nature is showing us. 

Kind of like keeping a live oak in a pot.....

“mInOr dIfFeReNcEs”

F51DEE53-25B1-4721-BA7A-6717C92B0B5A.webp

C311DB8D-AD9C-4700-9F90-8946B48CDEA6.webp

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2 hours ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Perhaps the rot is from not watering enough? 

Rot in the desert with fungus present in all "filifera".  Weird.

You claim filifera dislike wet ground and even ice cold water on their roots.  Easily disproven. 

Then you come up with humidity maps showing year-round humidity, when the discussion was winter(cold) humidity. 

Maybe, just maybe filifera abhor pots and especially seedlings in pots. At a minimum it stunts them.  Heck your own pics of the Dallas volunteers kind of show this.  Maybe present a pic of a healthy looking filifera in a pot. 

At the end of the day, all I am saying is maybe this species of palm does better direct seeded.

Yes they do grow naturally in select microclimates in the desert. In fact, in standing water, that can be very hot and humid at times. Even ice cold rivers in the winter/spring(snowmelt).

Take that water away and they die.

Heck, the most explosive growth shown, heavily came out of Dallas in the past. Direct seeded, or very small(1gal) plants. Even in cold/humid/wet Dallas. Imagine that!

ANy data on those quick warmups that you claim palms love in Dallas? Very interested. Maybe we could compare different cities.

Even a picture of a filifera falling over from root rot would be cool! Or are you talking in a pot outside in winter?

Edited by jwitt
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12 hours ago, jwitt said:

3 minutes in seedlings growing naturally how nature intended

 

Enjoyed the video thanks! But the only thing I'm desperately trying to find the pictures or videos of 1-2-3-years-old WAFI seedlings growing in those native stands showing clearly petioles to see if there's any red coloration among the smaller specimens, giant breathtaking motherpalms is one thing but looks like nobody is taking any closeup pictures of the "weed" there

Edited by MSX
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3 hours ago, jwitt said:

Rot in the desert with fungus present in all "filifera".  Weird.

You claim filifera dislike wet ground and even ice cold water on their roots.  Easily disproven. 

Then you come up with humidity maps showing year-round humidity, when the discussion was winter(cold) humidity. 

Maybe, just maybe filifera abhor pots and especially seedlings in pots. At a minimum it stunts them.  Heck your own pics of the Dallas volunteers kind of show this.  Maybe present a pic of a healthy looking filifera in a pot. 

At the end of the day, all I am saying is maybe this species of palm does better direct seeded.

Yes they do grow naturally in select microclimates in the desert. In fact, in standing water, that can be very hot and humid at times. Even ice cold rivers in the winter/spring(snowmelt).

Take that water away and they die.

Heck, the most explosive growth shown, heavily came out of Dallas in the past. Direct seeded, or very small(1gal) plants. Even in cold/humid/wet Dallas. Imagine that!

ANy data on those quick warmups that you claim palms love in Dallas? Very interested. Maybe we could compare different cities.

Even a picture of a filifera falling over from root rot would be cool! Or are you talking in a pot outside in winter?

What exactly do you want to prove? If you have any actual value to provide I'm all ears. 

Obviously they won't do well with zero water - not a single person on the history of this website has argued against this. 

Obviously they do better direct seeded - not a single person on the history of this website has argued against this.

 

Did you do not know that palms require less water in the winter? 

Or that crown watering is not the same to a palm as having groundwater access - did you know that some palms actually prefer one over their other? 

If you think that it's impossible for filiferas to rot I suggest getting out and traveling more. 

Honestly I'm enjoying this, even more so now that I'm thinking you might actually be serious- you equate filifera growing in habitat in the desert with their roots in water (which everyone already knew) means that filiferas love receiving tons of water in the crown during winter time. Then you'll go find like one pic of a washingtonia hybrid growing in the southeast and say "see look washingtonias love wet cold in winter". 

Please prove everyone wrong and go crown water your filifera everyday in the wintertime, especially right before a single digit freeze, and make sure to post pics on here.

 

 

Edited by DreaminAboutPalms
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8 hours ago, MSX said:

Enjoyed the video thanks! But the only thing I'm desperately trying to find the pictures or videos of 1-2-3-years-old WAFI seedlings growing in those native stands showing clearly petioles to see if there's any red coloration among the smaller specimens, giant breathtaking motherpalms is one thing but looks like nobody is taking any closeup pictures of the "weed" there

 This pic is from one of the native stands. Maybe a three year old. 

I have not seen closeups of the seedlings.

palm-canyon-washingtonia-filifera-petiole-detail.jpg

Edited by jwitt
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5 hours ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Please prove everyone wrong and go crown water your filifera everyday in the wintertime, especially right before a single digit freeze, and make sure to post pics on here.

 

 

 

Nature does it here for me. Nearly every single digit event here is preceded by rain and/or snow.  Oh, and single digits(if not lower) are fairly common in my 7b climate.  

I would never crown water a filifera in winter.  I have never advocated such. 

But here is this year's pic directly preceding our annual minimum.

348272191.jpg

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On 5/13/2023 at 7:16 AM, DreaminAboutPalms said:

What they don't like and what leads to root rot is cool damp weather that entire soaks the entire rootball.

 

And they really dislike extended freezes(minus the quick warmups) apparently too. 

 

Screenshot_20230514-185846.png

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10 minutes ago, jwitt said:

And they really dislike extended freezes(minus the quick warmups) apparently too. 

 

Screenshot_20230514-185846.png

As they say, only smoothbrains argue in absolutes

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On 5/14/2023 at 10:19 AM, MSX said:

Enjoyed the video thanks! But the only thing I'm desperately trying to find the pictures or videos of 1-2-3-years-old WAFI seedlings growing in those native stands showing clearly petioles to see if there's any red coloration among the smaller specimens, giant breathtaking motherpalms is one thing but looks like nobody is taking any closeup pictures of the "weed" there

Here is what you are looking for

 

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On 5/14/2023 at 11:19 AM, MSX said:

Enjoyed the video thanks! But the only thing I'm desperately trying to find the pictures or videos of 1-2-3-years-old WAFI seedlings growing in those native stands showing clearly petioles to see if there's any red coloration among the smaller specimens, giant breathtaking motherpalms is one thing but looks like nobody is taking any closeup pictures of the "weed" there

100% True Filifera do not. 

From what I’ve seen, the most Filifera dominant hybrids will have the the thick trunk, and overall Filifera appearance except the leaves are slightly more green and not quite as stiff and accompanied by red on the petioles. These can easily pass as Filifera at first glance when mature and are probably 90% Filifera but not pure and I’ve run into that problem numerous times trying to start true Filifera seedlings 

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Pure Filifera just have a different look, and when you see one it’s not a question if whether or not it’s a hybrid or a Filifera. I think the paler leaves and stiffer fronds differentiate the pure breads from the 90/10 Filifera dominant hybrids 

7444B959-D520-441B-BF6A-1E1F308037FA.webp

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What I consider pure to look like outside their native range

Screenshot_20221116-175734.thumb.png.45d9e7c7dd432978126d28664ba06243.png

 

elmers-4.jpg.04b5effd8f0ac67cf9f11fb5f8ac2d9c.jpg

Crown is what convinces me on filifera from underneath

Screenshot_20230103-153401.thumb.png.85a17c77f61019420e5efdd720af0bfe.png

Robusta crown from underneath 

Screenshot_20230103-153514.thumb.png.b8714a1515374ec571f7c63845246db3.png

 

Could it be heavy filifera hybrid? Or something we are missing that has not been discussed on this board?

image.png.f8875b9cc759a6e06ef3688b4ac39c02.png

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4 hours ago, jwitt said:

Here is what you are looking for

 

Yes, that's exactly it! Thanks a lot!

1.jpg

2.jpg

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23 hours ago, jwitt said:

What I consider pure to look like outside their native range

Screenshot_20221116-175734.thumb.png.45d9e7c7dd432978126d28664ba06243.png

 

elmers-4.jpg.04b5effd8f0ac67cf9f11fb5f8ac2d9c.jpg

Crown is what convinces me on filifera from underneath

Screenshot_20230103-153401.thumb.png.85a17c77f61019420e5efdd720af0bfe.png

Robusta crown from underneath 

Screenshot_20230103-153514.thumb.png.b8714a1515374ec571f7c63845246db3.png

 

Could it be heavy filifera hybrid? Or something we are missing that has not been discussed on this board?

image.png.f8875b9cc759a6e06ef3688b4ac39c02.png

Probably , also the pic is from Monaco I believe so very different climate than natural habitat and I do believe that has an impact on aesthetics of individual specimens. 

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"only in areas......subject to marine influence"

Very telling!

 

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1 hour ago, jwitt said:

"only in areas......subject to marine influence"

Very telling!

7D77C225-A8D1-4466-86B5-515D0FAEA307.png

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4 minutes ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

EA59A90F-FFBB-4D1B-99F6-5431D5FEFC5E.png

Sounds like some kind of joke. 

Nice container plant! 

 

 

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