Washingtonia filifera seedling variation

[MSX]

22 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

I am germinating Native Stand Filifera, and what Appeared to be real deal at best Filifera Tx 3F Survivors FAR from any Robusta had a chance, and out in the open away from buildings. Also probably 50 years old. I have had a nursery in the past so some experience growing these things. Should have some results to share.

I also Have my personal Filiabusta 4F survivor putting out flowers now. With no chance of a cross pollination. Just hope the seeds form before the utilities take it down.

 

It would be very interesting to see how the purest Native Stand W. filifera looks like at its earliest life stages

[Collectorpalms]

My native stand Filifera put out very quick deep tap roots, so that makes sense that could be a distinctive trait. 

[DreaminAboutPalms]

55 minutes ago, MSX said:

But W. filiferas are known to be naturally slower growers compared to w. robustas/hybrids so by doing this I mean by eliminating slower growers & selecting the fastest ones don't you leave the ones that might have more of w. robusta traits/genes?

While I only need actually one or two W. filifera palms for my lot, taking into account their adult size I just don't have room for more, I germinated 25 seeds, killed 5 seedlings by breaking down the roots while transplanting them, etc, some just died without any reason, so I have 20 left for the moment, now they're 5-month-old, and what I want to say at this stage I don't see any major differences between them in terms of growth speed or coloring, so I don't have clear understanding for now how to select "the best ones" among them, it is sad that at some point I have to get rid of most of them.

 

I waited until mine were about 8 months old to start getting rid of some. I'm not just looking at overall size and growth rate, but overall healthiness too. I'm also factoring in how they handled temps in low 20's and ice this winter. The ones that are filiferas will just have a stockier appearance while robustas want to go vertical right away. As they get older the differences between them will be more pronounced

 

[DreaminAboutPalms]

In pic with reddish trunk is one that had a double spear pull early in January after temps in low 20’s and ice. In Other pics those Palms showed no damage whatsoever. All from same batch of seeds. Obviously some from a batch will show more robusta traits and some Filifera, but once you separate them into two groups some simply will just not be as healthy and will look kind of scraggly. With that being said you can’t really tell when they are just tiny strap leaf seedlings. I had some that looked pure robusta as seedlings and now are looking more and more like a hybrid. 
 

leaving them out in cold is a good way to test them. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by DreaminAboutPalms

[Collectorpalms]

2 hours ago, MSX said:

It would be very interesting to see how the purest Native Stand W. filifera looks like at its earliest life stages

I should be repotting some grown in community deep pots very soon. Ill snap a pic. without soil. i just gave them their first dose of palmgain fertilizer. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[jwitt]

You literally lose years of growth by starting filifera in pots compared to inground seeding.  

Just my .02¢

[Collectorpalms]

4 minutes ago, jwitt said:

You literally lose years of growth by starting filifera in pots compared to inground seeding.  

Just my .02¢

oh, no they will rot the first rainy cloudy weather here. El Paso west, OK!

Edited May 20, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[jwitt]

11 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

oh, no they will rot the first rainy cloudy weather here. El Paso west, OK!

Wonder what the seedling understory is like? 

Shady and damp? Although no overhead liquid. 

Often wondered if a plate of glass or clear plastic above seedlings would help seedlings (or more emulate desert condition) in "rotting climates".  At least until they get some size. 

All that put aside, there is a huge difference I have seen personally with these palms with seeding in place vs. transplant/potting.  Huge = <1year growth. 

All that said,  rainy and cloudy is not much of a thing here concerning any plant.  

 

 

 

 

[Collectorpalms]

20 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Wonder what the seedling understory is like? 

Shady and damp? Although no overhead liquid. 

Often wondered if a plate of glass or clear plastic above seedlings would help seedlings (or more emulate desert condition) in "rotting climates".  At least until they get some size. 

All that put aside, there is a huge difference I have seen personally with these palms with seeding in place vs. transplant/potting.  Huge = <1year growth. 

All that said,  rainy and cloudy is not much of a thing here concerning any plant.  

 

 

 

 

One yeah, a year after the freeze there are robusta seedlings 2 feet tall. If you do get a little west of me in central Texas, like Austin.. but they have the soil nutrients they like. There are some Filifera heavy that do sprout fine and I am sure San Antonio. I still bet they not 100 % pure Filifera seedlings, at best 3/4 or 5/6 Filifera. But that’s just not my zone. I am like Swampy and the humidity and rain zap the nutrients faster than they cant be replaced. Like you said overhead clear cover and watering from below until they are 5 gallon size is the key. Also the right nutrients!

Edited May 20, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[MSX]

3 hours ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

leaving them out in cold is a good way to test them.

Interesting way to eliminate robusta genes from the batch, but what temperature range is officially considered killing for robustas and still safe for filiferas?

[Collectorpalms]

15 minutes ago, MSX said:

Interesting way to eliminate robusta genes from the batch, but what temperature range is officially considered killing for robustas and still safe for filiferas?

I had Moapa Nevada Washingtonia Filifera in nice filled out pinnate 1 gallon pots. They were killed by a heavy frost and 25F, the actual temperature at the ground was likely lower. They go into decline pretty quickly from stress. Growing under the canopy of a mother plant in soil they are probably never bothered. Maybe I could have rehabbed them knowing what I know now, but IN POTS, bad idea.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[MSX]

3 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

I should be repotting some grown in community deep pots very soon. Ill snap a pic. without soil. i just gave them their first dose of palmgain fertilizer. 

It's strange that I couldn't find any source, research on the Internet, anything with the detailed photos of pure W. filiferas from native habitats showing its life stages from the first root, eophyll, cataphyl, first true leaf, first palmate leaf, again colors and so on. Yes, we see plenty of photos of those wonderful mature specimens from the habitats but we don't know how they grow from the scratch. This was actually the only page/thread I came across. Nobody has documented that before while this information is interesting and important as a reference for people like me, true fans of Washingtonia palms who live thousands miles away from the habitats

Edited May 20, 2022 by MSX

[Collectorpalms]

You would need Pure Robustas to compare, and that is another whole debate.

[Jimhardy]

Washys are definitely one palm that does not like living in a pot...mine started to go into decline once the

roots have had enough of twisting around the bottom of the container...in fact, of the 7 I started with the only 2 still going were

in bigger pots to start.

[DreaminAboutPalms]

On 5/20/2022 at 12:14 PM, MSX said:

Interesting way to eliminate robusta genes from the batch, but what temperature range is officially considered killing for robustas and still safe for filiferas?

Palms in pots will get hotter in warm weather and colder in cooler weather. So when exposing them to cooler temps I would add at least 5 degrees to kill temp as a buffer of safety. Also make sure they are covered overhead, I had mine out on a covered balcony and just a night of mid-low 20's was enough to get some of them to burn and spear pull while others looked like nothing had happened. 

That being said there is no real set temperature, obviously humidity and other factors affect this, but you can see two identical looking palms in identical growing conditions and one will get fried and one will be fine. In central Texas I've seen pencil thin trunked hybrids come back while a fat trunked filifera down the street bit the dust. You could go collect hundreds of seeds from those filifera in ABQ, but I would bet less than half will grow up to be able to tolerate those conditions. I think there is a lot we still don't know about the Washingtonia genus. I've heard theories that there are multiple different types of pure robusta and pure filifera 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by DreaminAboutPalms

[Collectorpalms]

1 hour ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Palms in pots will get hotter in warm weather and colder in cooler weather. So when exposing them to cooler temps I would add at least 5 degrees to kill temp as a buffer of safety. Also make sure they are covered overhead, I had mine out on a covered balcony and just a night of mid-low 20's was enough to get some of them to burn and spear pull while others looked like nothing had happened. 

That being said there is no real set temperature, obviously humidity and other factors affect this, but you can see two identical looking palms in identical growing conditions and one will get fried and one will be fine. In central Texas I've seen pencil thin trunked hybrids come back while a fat trunked filifera down the street bit the dust. You could go collect hundreds of seeds from those filifera in ABQ, but I would bet less than half will grow up to be able to tolerate those conditions. I think there is a lot we still don't know about the Washingtonia genus. I've heard theories that there are multiple different types of pure robusta and pure filifera 

 

Where are there pencil thin Washingtonia left in central Texas? zone 8? ( I consider central Texas zone 8a/8b) some of Austin is zone 9, and San Antonio within the loop is zone 9. There WAS one rather thin survive in Bryan, but it died. El Paso doesnt count!

Any any rate! That is why I am trying two different Native Filifera stands, old isolated Filifera survivors in central Texas 3F, and then a hybrid for sure that survived my yard... that has been a rocket for my humidity and soil.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[Collectorpalms]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284857189_Distribution_and_Regional_Ecology_of_Californian_Palm_Oases_Interpreted_from_Google_Earth_Images

Edited May 22, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[DreaminAboutPalms]

1 hour ago, Collectorpalms said:

Where are there pencil thin Washingtonia left in central Texas? zone 8? ( I consider central Texas zone 8a/8b) some of Austin is zone 9, and San Antonio within the loop is zone 9. There WAS one rather thin survive in Bryan, but it died. El Paso doesnt count!

Any any rate! That is why I am trying two different Native Filifera stands, old isolated Filifera survivors in central Texas 3F, and then a hybrid for sure that survived my yard... that has been a rocket for my humidity and soil.

Around Downtown austin there are some rather thin hybrids that pulled through. Maybe not quite pencil thin in all cases but that being said there are still a lot of thicker trunked hybrids and purish  looking Filiferas that were killed 

pic 1: shorter slower growing one with more Filifera genes died while taller one prevailed 

pic 2: 2nd from left survived, and based on how fried that canary is after this winter this is not in a favorable microclimate 

 

pic 3: look towards the back there are some very thin survivors 

 

pic 4: two of the three are very strong on robusta genes and got pretty burnt this past winter 

Edited May 22, 2022 by DreaminAboutPalms

[Collectorpalms]

11 minutes ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Around Downtown austin there are some rather thin hybrids that pulled through. Maybe not quite pencil thin in all cases but that being said there are still a lot of thicker trunked hybrids and purish  looking Filiferas that were killed 

pic 1: shorter slower growing one with more Filifera genes died while taller one prevailed 

pic 2: 2nd from left survived, and based on how fried that canary is after this winter this is not in a favorable microclimate 

 

pic 3: look towards the back there are some very thin survivors 

 

pic 4: two of the three are very strong on robusta genes and got pretty burnt this past winter 

Look at Temperatures distribution around central Austin. 10-13F. Still a Zone 8a, I was down to 7a. I was there after the freeze and saw Washingtonia Filifera half green, Trachycarpus still green.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[Collectorpalms]

Meanwhile, me No power 4F. I have two survivors. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[DreaminAboutPalms]

20 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

Meanwhile, me No power 4F. I have two survivors. 

First two pics saw at least 7-8 degrees I believe and in last pic, defoliated again this winter but still kicking and saw 6 degrees. I live close to all of these and saw 6 degrees at my place. These are literally some of the only surviving Washingtonia in the immediate area.

Austin was also much drier going into freeze than College station which helped. Once you get out of downtown heat island area only survivors are close up against buildings. Thats the only way thin trunked hybrids have a chance long term here 

Edited May 22, 2022 by DreaminAboutPalms

[Marius]

On 5/22/2022 at 2:59 AM, Collectorpalms said:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284857189_Distribution_and_Regional_Ecology_of_Californian_Palm_Oases_Interpreted_from_Google_Earth_Images

This distribution map is great!  I found B armata, W robusta and B brandegeeii on Google earth using it. 

[DreaminAboutPalms]

A batch of “filifera” seedlings I germinated a month ago. Seem to be liking my patio which habit gone below 80 degrees in 6 weeks. Still look pretty Filifera ish. We will see as they age 

[MSX]

On 7/30/2022 at 10:36 PM, DreaminAboutPalms said:

A batch of “filifera” seedlings I germinated a month ago. Seem to be liking my patio which habit gone below 80 degrees in 6 weeks. Still look pretty Filifera ish. We will see as they age

This is a good start!

Where do the seeds come from? Native stand?

[DreaminAboutPalms]

19 hours ago, MSX said:

This is a good start!

Where do the seeds come from? Native stand?

Purchased off eBay, so don’t really know what you are getTing. Originally purchased so that I could germinate them and then guerrila plant but we’ll see I’ll probably keep the fastest and strongest ones.

all have roots coming through bottom of pots already. My balcony basically stays between 82 and 97 at all times 

[fr8train]

On 8/1/2022 at 9:39 AM, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Purchased off eBay, so don’t really know what you are getTing. Originally purchased so that I could germinate them and then guerrila plant but we’ll see I’ll probably keep the fastest and strongest ones.

all have roots coming through bottom of pots already. My balcony basically stays between 82 and 97 at all times 

How are they looking now?

[DreaminAboutPalms]

15 hours ago, fr8train said:

How are they looking now?

I guerilla planted like 70 of them around my old apartment complex in Austin so I'm not sure what their status is. 

With this batch and like every batch of washingtonia seeds, only a small percentage will have "ideal" characteristics, and some will show pure robusta traits, some will have more filifera characteristics but have fungal issues, and won't be able to take any water in crown, some will have be more of a mix. 

With hybrids, the best specimens from a batch of seeds tend to be the evenly balanced hybrids to filifera leaning in my experience.

[jwitt]

On 7/30/2022 at 11:36 AM, DreaminAboutPalms said:

A batch of “filifera” seedlings I germinated a month ago. Seem to be liking my patio which habit gone below 80 degrees in 6 weeks. Still look pretty Filifera ish. We will see as they age 

I bet those are root bound already. Cool you planted so many, hopefully they become specimens of Austin in a couple decades!

Sourcing is important in my mind. 

Take Phoenix for example, Hawaiian sourced Washingtonia hybrids all over!

 

Edited May 8 by jwitt

[DreaminAboutPalms]

22 hours ago, jwitt said:

I bet those are root bound already. Cool you planted so many, hopefully they become specimens of Austin in a couple decades!

Sourcing is important in my mind. 

Take Phoenix for example, Hawaiian sourced Washingtonia hybrids all over!

 

Agreed. And it’s becoming challenging to source Washingtonia with ideal characteristics because there’s very few places you can go and find pure Filifera with no robusta nearby, and everything’s a hybrid now. In Texas you can sort of get away with it for awhile, at least until a 2021 type event comes and leaves you with a 30 foot telephone pole in your yard. 

Here, i think if you want one or two long term Washingtonia you pretty much just have to toss a couple dozen seeds in the ground and wait. Some won’t make it past seedling stage, some will get fried first or second winter and not make it, some will be runts and grow slowly, but eventually you’ll be left with a few hardy ones that will last long term. Nearly all the massive Washingtonia survivors around central and north Texas are part of former mass plantings.

early 2022 I had 100ish Washingtonia seedlings. I kept the 30 healthiest ones when I moved to Dallas in February and left them all out through high teens and ice. About half showed no damage - the ones that did I sold some, and planted the rest in protected areas. A few died of fungal issues after a bunch of 50’s and rain last spring leaving me with about 10. This winter when Dallas got down to 11 degrees I had them all out on my porch, which was covered at least. Half perished, leaving me with just 5 survivors - 1 of which showed zero damage, 2 had spear pull but no damage on existing fronds, and 2 had spear pull plus partial defoliation. 

[fr8train]

On 4/12/2016 at 2:06 PM, aztropic said:

I have grown California fan palms a couple of times and they are ALWAYS green/white! Red is a bad sign and should be considered a hybrid!

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona 

Are they completely white as seedlings too? 

[ChicagoPalma]

Hey guys some help here, Im growing palm tree seeds that I ordered from amazon that were supposed to be trachycarpus but instead by seed size were a type or robusta. I germinated 6 and I believe only 4-5 of them germinated. Right now I don't know if they are filifera or not. I have two seedlings that shot up in height and two that are less vertical. The ones that are less vertical were the first ones to germinate.

[aztropic]

3 hours ago, fr8train said:

Are they completely white as seedlings too? 

 

54 minutes ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Hey guys some help here, Im growing palm tree seeds that I ordered from amazon that were supposed to be trachycarpus but instead by seed size were a type or robusta. I germinated 6 and I believe only 4-5 of them germinated. Right now I don't know if they are filifera or not. I have two seedlings that shot up in height and two that are less vertical. The ones that are less vertical were the first ones to germinate.

Washingtonia filifera leaf bases will always be white turning to green as the sun hits them. ANY sign of red on the leaf bases indicates that there is some robusta in the parentage.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[fr8train]

2 hours ago, aztropic said:

 

Washingtonia filifera leaf bases will always be white turning to green as the sun hits them. ANY sign of red on the leaf bases indicates that there is some robusta in the parentage.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

Do you think these are filibusta-ish, or is it too soon to know? 

They were white, but then I put them in the sun and some maroon developed. 

[aztropic]

😆Those are not leaf bases. WAAY too early to make a determination. After 1 or 2 character leaves develop,you will have a better idea. Probably will only have strap leaves this year,so you have to realize growing palms from seed takes a lot of patience. I am growing med fan 'vulcano' from seed,and don't expect to be able to pick out the seedlings showing the most 'vulcano' traits until about 5 years from now. 

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[fr8train]

12 hours ago, aztropic said:

😆Those are not leaf bases. WAAY too early to make a determination. After 1 or 2 character leaves develop,you will have a better idea. Probably will only have strap leaves this year,so you have to realize growing palms from seed takes a lot of patience. I am growing med fan 'vulcano' from seed,and don't expect to be able to pick out the seedlings showing the most 'vulcano' traits until about 5 years from now. 

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

I see cool 

 

I've grown vulcano too, but none ended up having the vulcano traits sadly. Same with a batch of Lisa seeds I got a while back, but I'm trying them again too. 🤞

[RJ]

I’m wondering what this one will end up being like. Left it outside for many a winter forget it about it, never shown but the slightest damage and seemed to laugh at our cold winter rains … 

[jwitt]

53 minutes ago, RJ said:

I’m wondering what this one will end up being like. Left it outside for many a winter forget it about it, never shown but the slightest damage and seemed to laugh at our cold winter rains … 

Not only laugh, but love water

 

[DreaminAboutPalms]

On 5/9/2023 at 6:55 PM, fr8train said:

Do you think these are filibusta-ish, or is it too soon to know? 

They were white, but then I put them in the sun and some maroon developed. 

Too soon to really tell. You’ll know when they’re a year old. Typically with hybrid seeds like what you have, the slight Filifera leaning ones  turn out the healthiest and do the best in tx. And there’s a lot of evidence of this. In Austin and in DFW many of the survivors are rather even looking hybrids with a slight Filifera lean. A lot have thinner trunks but more Filifera type leaves. And that’s exactly how my top performer out of my batch of 100 i started in 2021 is. Leaves are very Filifera ish but trunk has plenty of purple on it and it overall looks like a slightly Filifera leaning hybird
 

The hybrid seeds that will turn out the most Filifera looking typically can take zero water in crown and are prone to fungal issues, I found out the hard way, and the ones that are the most robusta ish can’t take any cold and can be kind of runtish 
 

[fr8train]

15 hours ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Too soon to really tell. You’ll know when they’re a year old. Typically with hybrid seeds like what you have, the slight Filifera leaning ones  turn out the healthiest and do the best in tx. And there’s a lot of evidence of this. In Austin and in DFW many of the survivors are rather even looking hybrids with a slight Filifera lean. A lot have thinner trunks but more Filifera type leaves. And that’s exactly how my top performer out of my batch of 100 i started in 2021 is. Leaves are very Filifera ish but trunk has plenty of purple on it and it overall looks like a slightly Filifera leaning hybird
 

The hybrid seeds that will turn out the most Filifera looking typically can take zero water in crown and are prone to fungal issues, I found out the hard way, and the ones that are the most robusta ish can’t take any cold and can be kind of runtish 
 

I'm not in San Antonio itself, I'm sort of out by Boerne. From what I've seen, the only Washingtonia that don't burn completely here are the ones that look most like filifera, so I'm kinda hoping they turn out as filifera as possible. The hybrids seem to come back, but they always look pretty rough, at least since I've moved here. This area is supposed to be 8B, but looking at the lows it might even be 8A. 

[DreaminAboutPalms]

Here is a seedling I’ve just started and below is the parent tree, which apparently has been here in Dallas since the 80’s and has quite a beat up trunk.

too soon to tell if it has any hybrid in it