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Is my Mule Sterile?


Alicehunter2000
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Just gets worse from here, lol

alltherulesmendelian[1].jpg

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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3 minutes ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

Yes... I scraped the endocarp with my nail and revealed the white coconut meat (endosperm ). I also noted before I cut with bolt cutters that I had a functional pore as described on the illustration. 

throw some in a community pot, grow them up for 3 years and let us know what they look like.

 

Carlsbad, California Zone 10 B on the hill (402 ft. elevation)

Sunset zone 24

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I don't believe it is self pollinated ..... we come from the land of Butia odorata here .....probably literally 100's within a 10 mile radius. They all fruit profusely. My neighbors was flowering at the same time as my mule....less than 100ft. Away. Bees out the wazoo!  I believe this to be a (BxS)xB. This mule is constantly sending up spathes....many abort. I currently have a spathe where only maybe 10 seeds are developing....everything else aborted. 

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Back when I was ordering hybrids from Patric, he explained to me that most mules are not receptive to foreign pollen but some are. As we all know mules are almost all self sterile. This is what I believe this mule to be (self-sterile). Mules that are receptive to outside pollen is much more likely. Patrick has a (or some) mules that he pollinate's with Jubaea, Butia, and Syagrus .... no one seems to question as to whether or not his "triple" hybrids will only show the characteristics of only a single species. I am curious as to why you all would think this seed (if developed) would only produce either a strait queen or strait butia?

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Pal, you have the mescarp labled as endosperm on your illustration. 

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Endosperm is the white

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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I think I just yanked the embryo out of the endosperm....it was even more white and you can see the hole it left.

20151212_201604.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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The seed pictured above is able to germinate, no doubt about that.  If it came from your Mule then it was crossed back with another species.  Even the very few mules that don't abort the fruit will be completely solid, but not full size.  The same thing occurs to Butia that has been cross pollinated with Queen or Jubaea pollen, but didn't "take".

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2 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

Compared to my Lytocaryum seedling it would have already a very enlarged embryo?

566ccd670727c_SyagrusweddellianaIMG_0868

Pal I think you're just a little confused. The seed on the right has not been sliced like the one on the left. The one on the right has only been cracked exposing the kernel. Inside the kernel is the endosperm and embryo. The cracked shell functions like a coconut husk protecting the kernel (embryo and endosperm). :)

Los Angeles, CA and Myrtle Beach, SC.

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6 hours ago, Brad Mondel said:

Pal I think you're just a little confused. The seed on the right has not been sliced like the one on the left. The one on the right has only been cracked exposing the kernel. Inside the kernel is the endosperm and embryo. The cracked shell functions like a coconut husk protecting the kernel (embryo and endosperm). :)

Oh, now it’s clear. :D I didn’t think that the endocarp (shell) is soooo thick:blink: And I hadn’t seen the other photo with the endosperm (kernel) being crashed …:

566d511cf2d42_Mule20151212_201604.thumb.

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My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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12 hours ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

Back when I was ordering hybrids from Patric, he explained to me that most mules are not receptive to foreign pollen but some are. As we all know mules are almost all self sterile. This is what I believe this mule to be (self-sterile). Mules that are receptive to outside pollen is much more likely. Patrick has a (or some) mules that he pollinate's with Jubaea, Butia, and Syagrus .... no one seems to question as to whether or not his "triple" hybrids will only show the characteristics of only a single species. I am curious as to why you all would think this seed (if developed) would only produce either a strait queen or strait butia?

If you have a receptive Mule (and I believe you do), why not obtain Jubae pollen and start dusting her? 

Coral Gables, FL 8 miles North of Fairchild USDA Zone 10B

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4 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

Oh, now it’s clear. :D I didn’t think that the endocarp (shell) is soooo thick:blink: And I hadn’t seen the other photo with the endosperm (kernel) being crashed …:

566d511cf2d42_Mule20151212_201604.thumb.

This is so exciting! :) cool illustration pal! I really enjoy these. 

Los Angeles, CA and Myrtle Beach, SC.

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16 minutes ago, Brad Mondel said:

This is so exciting! :) cool illustration pal! I really enjoy these. 

Thanks, I was totally confused by the first photos, thinking that the blue-white outer part were the mesocarp … :blink: But now I can see that it is all together only the small seed. It would be interesting to get posted a pic showing the hole shape of the seed (with its endocarp/shell), if it looks like a round Butia seed or longer and not so smooth like a Syagrus:huh:

My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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Thanks everyone for the input. Jubaea pollen would be hard to get, what I would really like to do would be a (BxS)xS ....

A reliably cold hardy 9a/8b queen-like paLM would be great for us up here in the cold north. Queen pollen should be easier to get as well.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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18 minutes ago, Alicehunter2000 said:

Thanks everyone for the input. Jubaea pollen would be hard to get, what I would really like to do would be a (BxS)xS ....

A reliably cold hardy 9a/8b queen-like paLM would be great for us up here in the cold north. Queen pollen should be easier to get as well.

sounds like there is a possibility for this to work.

look like you have a cool up and coming pollination project.:greenthumb:

I'll be your first customer if you pull this off :drool:

Carlsbad, California Zone 10 B on the hill (402 ft. elevation)

Sunset zone 24

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Throw those seeds in a community pot and see what shakes out. I'll bet a couple of interesting muleys develope.

Coral Gables, FL 8 miles North of Fairchild USDA Zone 10B

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Just plant some seeds, keep warm and wait for them to pop.

Some will, in my limited experience. My Mule of Doom has sex-buds somewhere. Here and there a seed sprouts.

Keith did any of the ones I sent you sprout? If not, or if yes, I'll send more when they're available.

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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9 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Just plant some seeds, keep warm and wait for them to pop.

Some will, in my limited experience. My Mule of Doom has sex-buds somewhere. Here and there a seed sprouts.

Keith did any of the ones I sent you sprout? If not, or if yes, I'll send more when they're available.

I am always happy to try and germinate some F2 Mulies as well Dave. :D

Ben Rogers

On the border of Concord & Clayton in the East Bay hills - Elev 387 ft 37.95 °N, 121.94 °W

My back yard weather station: http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/hdfForecast?query=37.954%2C-121.945&sp=KCACONCO37

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I called first dibs, lol

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Ben and Keith:

I'll keep you both in mind. Cold hardy material is a top priority where you both are.

That said, I wish some seeds would come along. TONS of flowers (20 spend flower stalks!) no seed this year.

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Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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I have no problems sending some seeds yall's way. Really unsure how many would be viable....I didn't even clean them just waited for the ants and bugs to clean most of the pulp and threw them in a pot. When I get time, I will try and dig them out, clean properly and send ya'll some. Most all appear to be sinkers but since there was no attempt to purposely pollinate them....not sure the bees got to all of them. May cut a few more open to get an idea of percentage with embryo. I got two more spathes ready to open....wish I had some queen pollen.

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David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Thanks Dave and David!  I'm always looking for new germination projects, experiments, and - yes - cold hardy material!

Ben Rogers

On the border of Concord & Clayton in the East Bay hills - Elev 387 ft 37.95 °N, 121.94 °W

My back yard weather station: http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/hdfForecast?query=37.954%2C-121.945&sp=KCACONCO37

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11 hours ago, _Keith said:

I called first dibs, lol

beat you to it. read above :lol:

Carlsbad, California Zone 10 B on the hill (402 ft. elevation)

Sunset zone 24

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Just now, Josh-O said:

beat you to it. read above :lol:

Keith and I have greater needs. :D

Ben Rogers

On the border of Concord & Clayton in the East Bay hills - Elev 387 ft 37.95 °N, 121.94 °W

My back yard weather station: http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/hdfForecast?query=37.954%2C-121.945&sp=KCACONCO37

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2 minutes ago, Ben in Norcal said:

Keith and I have greater needs. :D

hehehehehehe:D

Carlsbad, California Zone 10 B on the hill (402 ft. elevation)

Sunset zone 24

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I got money. 

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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On 14/12/2015, 9:33:46, Alicehunter2000 said:

I have no problems sending some seeds yall's way. Really unsure how many would be viable....I didn't even clean them just waited for the ants and bugs to clean most of the pulp and threw them in a pot. When I get time, I will try and dig them out, clean properly and send ya'll some. Most all appear to be sinkers but since there was no attempt to purposely pollinate them....not sure the bees got to all of them. May cut a few more open to get an idea of percentage with embryo. I got two more spathes ready to open....wish I had some queen pollen.

Maybe, just maybe, I will be able to send to you Allagoptera pollen...

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Bad news to report.....just got finished cracking open about 20 more seeds nothing but wood and some that looked like this. Remember I did not pollinate these seeds so I am still hopefull that it is possible since I found that one.....anyways I think it would be a waste of time and money to try and send these to you all. I got spathes opening constantly so I will try and intentionally pollinate some in the future. Sorry everyone. 

20151219_142919.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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