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Copernicia vs Livistona


topwater

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Hi,

I'm hoping for some advice about Copernicia prunifera and Livistona saribus for the upper TX coast.  I'm in zone 9b with very hot summers and short, cold winters with an occasional freeze.  They will be going to two locations, both are in full sun and one is exposed to winter salt spray and very high winds.  I have no experience with either  

Thanks

 

 

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I just purchased both.  I am in So Cal in 10a/b can't be exact.  But I believe you should be fine with Either, but I'm positive the Livistona will do just fine, and the nursery I got the Copernicia is located in lake Elsinore were he gets extreme variance in hot $ cold and he had several full grown.  It's real hardy as well.  Good choices maybe plant the Copernicia were you get Salty air. Not an expert but my guess.  

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Growth rate is a concern, and around here, C.cheninses is a super slug, kind like an origami Washie.  Hope fully saribum will be faster  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

w

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Might consider planting the saribus in an area with some overhead cover to protect it from frost.  Leaves will more than likely get damaged if temps get into the mid to low 20Fs with heavy frost.  I think they look better when grown in the shade anyway, IMHO. 

C. prunifera are easy but will grow VERY slow if planted in an overly dry spot.

Edited by tank

Jason

Gainesville, Florida

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Young L. saribus get very tattered in the wind.  I'm considering pulling mine (they are already very sheltered) as we have regular winter winds here.

Ben Rogers

On the border of Concord & Clayton in the East Bay hills - Elev 387 ft 37.95 °N, 121.94 °W

My back yard weather station: http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/hdfForecast?query=37.954%2C-121.945&sp=KCACONCO37

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If you have wind, L. chinensis would be a better choice than L. saribus, which is also very slow.

Ben Rogers

On the border of Concord & Clayton in the East Bay hills - Elev 387 ft 37.95 °N, 121.94 °W

My back yard weather station: http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/hdfForecast?query=37.954%2C-121.945&sp=KCACONCO37

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There are a few Saribus up by Bush Intercontinental north of Houston in Mercer gardens which I'd classify as a warm 9A.  They are in a high pine canopy but seem to do well.  There are L. Chilensis all over Houston and always look good.  They seem to be a solid 9A palm in Texas.  I haven't seen any copernicia anywhere in Texas 9a or 9B.  I am trying a few C. Alba in 8B, but I am sure they will die.

Edited by TexasColdHardyPalms
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Dr. Sigler
 

Welcome aboard!

You might want to consider other livistona where you are. Some are very hardy to the cold, like L. australis, decora/decipiens and others.

 

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Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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You could put either L. saribus or L. chinensis in the shade - they will stretch and appear larger, plus have a more graceful look.  Also, there are two varieties of L. saribus - one with a green petiole (branch) and one with a black petiole.  I forget which L. saribus is hardier though...  I'm thinking that C. alba is a little more sensitive.  There is a forum member named "alicehunter" who lives in North Florida, probably in a climate similar to yours.  I know his C. albas have struggled.  I think that he may have tried L. saribus too.

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I looked at the saribus again today and I think Ben nailed it.  Might as well plant them in Dallas because that's where the foliage will be after the first tropical storm.  They could probably hang at my office though.

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The same nursery with the L. sab. and C. prun. also had a boat load of Coccothrinax barbadensis, which the owner says will do fine here.   I'm stupid about all Coccothrinax and will certainly buy a few, but my understanding is that they are 10b.  I can fake 10a most winters, but no way can 10b happen here.  I'm hoping to hear from some TX growers (Joseph :) ) to see if it's at all feasible.  Thanks and sorry for changing topic.

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Hi Dave,  I live an hour south of Screwston, which as you know, is the second largest palmy city in the USA.  You have to answer two questions at the nursery:   1) How many feet of CT are you willing to pay for on that queenie?   2) How many roebeliniii to go with it?  At that point your shopping is complete!  I've seen pics of your place, super cool.  As a matter of fact, if you ever find yourself in Hugetown, I have a bunch of teddy bears in 2 gallon pots I'll send back to La La with you (I thought they were 9b, sniff......sob).  Yours are gorgeous.  Nite

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I have a L. chinensis that I bought as 25 gallon and planted in the spring under low live oak canopy and I find it to be a medium speed palm. I'm not sure why everyone complains how slow they are. It has grown 3-4 fronds this summer. I am in the same climate zone as Texas City. I'd say very similar climates minus the salt. ...... I also have 3 baby teddy bears under the same oak. I read reports here that they went through mid-20s under canopy with no damage..... is that way inaccurate? I also have a 25 gallon C. alba from _Keith that I have yet to plant.

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I'm delighted to hear about the teddy bears because I've accumulated about ten of them from FL growers, although three have heels and I fear may be D. lastelliana instead.  Did yours over winter as well?  L. chinensis is very common around here, L. decora is less frequently seen, and I"ve never seen L. saribus so I'll buy a few regardless of the growth rate.   I"ve never seen any Copernicia here, so thats an auto-purchase.  The big question is how many of each and where to put them.   Ask me again in ten years why I call L. chinensis  slow!  I wonder if Keith would trade a couple of his LA sabals for a couple of teddy bears?

 

 

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Hi Dave,  I live an hour south of Screwston, which as you know, is the second largest palmy city in the USA.  You have to answer two questions at the nursery:   1) How many feet of CT are you willing to pay for on that queenie?   2) How many roebeliniii to go with it?  At that point your shopping is complete!  I've seen pics of your place, super cool.  As a matter of fact, if you ever find yourself in Hugetown, I have a bunch of teddy bears in 2 gallon pots I'll send back to La La with you (I thought they were 9b, sniff......sob).  Yours are gorgeous.  Nite

 

 

 

Thanks!

If I didn't already have a flock of potted Teddies, I'd book me a tickee to TX forthwith.

Try some anyway. Maybe under a Live Oak, near the edge of the canopy. (I see you did [ED])The lastelliana, too. (That's what the "heelers" are, I'm pretty sure.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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I'm delighted to hear about the teddy bears because I've accumulated about ten of them from FL growers, although three have heels and I fear may be D. lastelliana instead.  Did yours over winter as well?  L. chinensis is very common around here, L. decora is less frequently seen, and I"ve never seen L. saribus so I'll buy a few regardless of the growth rate.   I"ve never seen any Copernicia here, so thats an auto-purchase.  The big question is how many of each and where to put them.   Ask me again in ten years why I call L. chinensis  slow!  I wonder if Keith would trade a couple of his LA sabals for a couple of teddy bears?

 

 

See my PM

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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I have a L. chinensis that I bought as 25 gallon and planted in the spring under low live oak canopy and I find it to be a medium speed palm. I'm not sure why everyone complains how slow they are. It has grown 3-4 fronds this summer. I am in the same climate zone as Texas City. I'd say very similar climates minus the salt. ...... I also have 3 baby teddy bears under the same oak. I read reports here that they went through mid-20s under canopy with no damage..... is that way inaccurate? I also have a 25 gallon C. alba from _Keith that I have yet to plant.

I think the complaint on L. chinensis has more to do with the smaller sizes that tend to be sluggish. They tend to accelerate growth as they get larger I heard. I've never seen many with much trunk unless they are transplants from central/south Fl.

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Some Chinese grow at moderate rate....others slower.

L. saribus green petiole is colder hardy than C. alba in my experience....by several degrees.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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How about the green/black petiole Livistona?  I must confess I didn't know there we 2 types.  Most of our winters are 10a or 10b.  However, sooner or later we get a soul crushing 9b, 25 degree disaster to slap us back to reality.  What the cold doesn't kill, the Caribou finish off.    My bigger concern is can L. sauribus and C. prunifera take months of full sun at 95 degrees and 95% humidity without wilting, or will they need some shade to start.  My place is all Washies, CIPDs, and thank God, five Bizzies now. Those three laugh at the sky during the worst of our weather, but I know they are unique.  

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LOL ..... The green petiole Livistonia saribus is the way to go. You will probably be able to grow C. alba....not sure about prunifera. They can take the heat and full sun in our humidity. The saribus is kinda like chinensis in many ways....can handle full sun but look better in dappled shade. They appear to have similar cold tolorance and both seem to prefer humidity...both like a lot of water if soil drains well (not sure about clay).

You should be able to grow more than me as I get down to low 20's every few years. I am a cold 9a.

Livistonia nitida, saribus (green), chinensis, and decora all do well here. I also have a smaller australis that I'm sure will be ok too. Got a three hybrid Livistonia that will be eventually tested as well. 

I have a lot of different experiments in the ground. Been extremely pleased with Bismarkia. Got some Brahea clara showing a lot of promise. Parajubea sunkha sulked until our recent cool snap...might actually be growing (jury still out). I got 1 small Dypsis decipiens that is surviving. ....other stuff too. Just need to take a look around to remember.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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David, bizmarkia is hanging in for you? I bought sabal bermudana for the closest thing to it I thought would live. Nobody has commented on teddy bear cold tolerance under canopy.......

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Have you guys tried Chambeyronia macrocarpus in any zone 9 areas.  I have a few beauties from FL that will hit  the dirt March 1st.

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I have C. macrocarpa in a protected courtyard pool area. I protect it during freezes and sometimes supply heat. It is slow but steady and shows less wear and tear than a D. cabadae nearby. 

Certain Bismarkia individuals do remarkably well. I have had many that survived the Polar Vortex and Great Ice Storm of 2014? (Search for Large Palms vs. Polar Vortex thread) also at my old house...had several that survived the winters of 2010 and 2011.  Bismarkia ROCK! ....but certain individuals are definitely more hardy than others. Just got to find a good one.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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I agree about Bismarkia.  If it can handle the cool 9a parts of Houston, its going to absolutly take the town over, but its still pretty rare there. I think its going to do way better than the CIPDs, which all get trunk rot when they're old.  My biggest one is a rocket, its Washie\Wodyetia fast!  The others are at least medium fast.  Let us know how D. cabade takes the winter. The same nursery with the Cop. and Liv. also had D. cabadae, Licuala spinosa, Coccothrinax barbadensis, Archontophoenix alexandrae, Brahia armata, Phoenix reclinata, P. rupicola, P. pusilla, and even a few odd Roystonea, lol. Ive never seen any of the above IRL.  

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Topwater, too bad you are not 15 minutes south on Galveston. Most of those palms would make it there. I  used to live on Galveston, and was shocked at how much warmer than the mainland the island stayed in the winter.

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I thought League city on down would be a solid 9b, with 7 out of 10 winters being a 10a. I would have thought anything down towards san Louis pass would be an easy 10a, no?

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That's true for the far south of Galveston county, 70% of the winters are probably 10a.  However, the remaining 3 out of ten winters are a toss up between 10b and 9b, thats the rub.  And if it hits 25 degrees on Tiki Island, Galveston is going to see 25 as well. The Norfolk Pines are probably the best indicator.  They are trees down south, but you won't see many past TC\LM.  

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One very important thing about Bismarkia is they do not show the same cold tolorance in a pot. If roots experience even 31 degrees F. they are toast. Super root sensitive ...including cold. Either put them in the ground or keep them above freezing.

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David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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