Long and Lat

[spockvr6]

(Ray, Tampa @ Apr. 12 2007,14:30)

QUOTE

 A more realistic 300 heating hours would actually translate to somewhere like Detroit, Michigan or Bangor, Maine.

I think you forgot a zero with those locations!

[SubTropicRay]

Alright 3000 hours, and throw Brooksville in there too.

[PalmsZA]

Hi Guys

Ed: thats a good map.

To put our climate into perspective I live at about 300m ASL in a valley and about 10km from the ocean. The lowest temp recorded fo far is 4.5c last winter and stats from my area have the lowest temp at 3c. It can get chilly here as it is right now......cold and wet and we are only in April. It got to 14c last night (the lowest since Sept 2006) so Autumn is well on her way down South. Closer to the coast at a mates house, he hasnt seen below 12c for 7 years.

Durban has a good palm/other tropicals climate with bread fruit trees at the bot gardens and C.renda's growing well, if a little scrapy looking by the end of winter, I would be able to grow those two species in my valley!

Cheers

Dennis

[Tyrone]

Dennis, You've got a great climate. It's good to hear from you again.

regards

Tyrone

[NBTX11]

(bgl @ Apr. 05 2007,16:30)

QUOTE

. ANY other area this close to the North Pole (and it's equivalent to being about 400 miles further north than Pt. Barrow, Alaska) is definitely covered by ice and snow 12 months of the year.

This is at a latitude (approx. 70 N) almost exactly that of Pt. Barrow, which is a VERY cold place, no matter when you go there.

Bo-Göran

Barrow is actually snow free during the short cool summer with averages in the 45-50F range and record highs as high as 80F (actually 79F is the all time record high).

Interior AK, including areas north of the arctic circle, can get downright HOT in the summer, much more so than northern Europe.  Interior AK averages in the 70s in the summer, frequently gets up to 90F and has been as hot as 100F.  

Of course they get brutally cold in the winter, everyone knows that.

[NBTX11]

(Ray, Tampa @ Apr. 12 2007,11:17)

QUOTE

Jack, Tampa's 18F you referenced is an even bigger anomaly than the freeze you guys had this winter.

I believe it has dipped below freezing in Brisbane before.  Someone (Daryl, Wal etc.) please confirm or correct me.  Tampa's 18F in 1962 is very much an anomaly and definitely not the norm.  In fact, I've dipped below 30F only twice in the last 17 years and nowhere near that 1962 low temperature.  Why does my howetown get such a bad wrap when it comes to cold weather??  It's not that cold here.  I just like to bitch a lot.  I will say it's probably the coldest (as is all of Florida) location on earth at these latitudes.  Miami is at 26 and change N latitude and has "frozen" many times.  How many other places on earth get those temps at that latitude?!

Whoever has heated their homes in Tampa for 300 plus hours is a complete wimp.  I'd love to know the definition of "heating hours".  Is that when temps dip below 60F outside???   I can count the number of times I ran the heat this year on two hands and it's nowhere near 300 hours.  Man, there are some really tempetature sensitive folks living around me.  I guess that's why it's condsidered a "cold" climate.

Ray I agree with you, I used to live in Tampa and it is very warm and mild most of the winter.  30s is very cold for Tampa.

As far as Miami, since the record low is 32F, I would say they have had One "official" freeze in history, not "many times".  I bet Miami Beach has never had a freeze.  I know many inland locations (homestead, etc) have gotten into the 20s before.

[NBTX11]

(spockvr6 @ Apr. 12 2007,13:47)

QUOTE

[As an example of the format of the below, "100/104 - 8" means that LA spends 8 hours a year with the temp between 100 and 104F.  

Los Angeles, CA

100/104 - 8

95/99 - 8

90/94 - 9

85/89 - 17

80/84 - 53

75/79 - 194

70/74 - 632

65/69 - 1583

60/64 - 234

55/59 - 2055

50/54 - 1181

45/49 - 394

40/44 - 74

35/39 - 4

30/34 - 0

Miami, FL

100/104 - 0

95/99 - 0

90/84 - 45

85/89 - 864

80/84 - 1900

75/79 - 2561

70/74 - 1605

65/69 - 871

60/64 - 442

55/59 - 222

50/54- 105

45/49 - 77

40/44 - 36

35/39 - 12

30/34 - 0

This goes to show you that Miami spends very little time during the year below 65F, where as LA spends a ton of time in the 50s.

[SubTropicRay]

Hi Jim,

Miami had more than one freeze in the 1980's alone.  If you include 1962, that's 4 right there with 1983, 1985 and 1989.  Maybe many times is a bit of an overstatement but it has happened more often than one would think.  The freeze events are usually in the 29-32F range and last for short periods of time.

Miami Beach received snow flurries in 1989.

Ray

[NBTX11]

(Ray @ Tampa,Apr. 13 2007,13:33)

QUOTE

Hi Jim,

Miami had more than one freeze in the 1980's alone.  If you include 1962, that's 4 right there with 1983, 1985 and 1989.  Maybe many times is a bit of an overstatement but it has happened more often than one would think.  The freeze events are usually in the 29-32F range and last for short periods of time.

Miami Beach received snow flurries in 1989.

Ray

I am not dispting what you are saying, but that is not what weather.com shows.  I personally wasn't there.

Yahoo weather shows a low of 32F all time.

http://weather.yahoo.com/climo/USFL0316_f.html

They show 32F for the low on 1/20/77 and 12/24/89.  No other freezes shown.

Weather.com also shows an all time low of 32F.

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatolo...onthly/USFL0316

Are both of these websites wrong to list the all time record low of 32F?

I realize it probably got colder than that in areas of the city.

Also, it can snow at temps above 32, so Miami beach may have only got down to 33 or 34 during the same snaps, I don't know, I am only speculating.  My guess is that the beach was a couple degrees warmer when the airport hit 32F (or wherever they took the readings from).

My point is that, 1) personally I hardly consider right at 32F a freeze, and 2) it happens so infrequently if ever that I think saying it happens frequently gives the wrong impression.  I think it would be safe to say that Miami (in the city or near the beach) will never see below 30F (and probably 32F) in our lifetimes.  Outlying areas yes, but that is another story.

[happ]

(syersj @ Apr. 13 2007,16:04)

QUOTE

(Ray @ Tampa,Apr. 13 2007,13:33)

QUOTE

Hi Jim,

Miami had more than one freeze in the 1980's alone.  If you include 1962, that's 4 right there with 1983, 1985 and 1989.  Maybe many times is a bit of an overstatement but it has happened more often than one would think.  The freeze events are usually in the 29-32F range and last for short periods of time.

Miami Beach received snow flurries in 1989.

Ray

I am not dispting what you are saying, but that is not what weather.com shows.  I personally wasn't there.

Yahoo weather shows a low of 32F all time.

http://weather.yahoo.com/climo/USFL0316_f.html

They show 32F for the low on 1/20/77 and 12/24/89.  No other freezes shown.

Weather.com also shows an all time low of 32F.

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatolo...onthly/USFL0316

Are both of these websites wrong to list the all time record low of 32F?

I realize it probably got colder than that in areas of the city.

Also, it can snow at temps above 32, so Miami beach may have only got down to 33 or 34 during the same snaps, I don't know, I am only speculating.  My guess is that the beach was a couple degrees warmer when the airport hit 32F (or wherever they took the readings from).

My point is that, 1) personally I hardly consider right at 32F a freeze, and 2) it happens so infrequently if ever that I think saying it happens frequently gives the wrong impression.  I think it would be safe to say that Miami (in the city or near the beach) will never see below 30F (and probably 32F) in our lifetimes.  Outlying areas yes, but that is another story.

Thanks for the data, Jim    Nice to have others interested in climatology.

Per the NWS the records are as follows [keep in mind that the data only goes back some 50 years for Miami Beach whereas Miami & Los Angeles are well over 100 yrs.  These figures are the all-time record lows.

JAN

Miami Beach 32

Miami 28

Los Angeles 28

FEB

Miami Beach 37

Miami 27

Los Angeles 34

DEC

Miami Beach 32

Miami 30

Los Angeles 30

[NBTX11]

Hmmm...maybe the all time record lows of 32F shown by Yahoo and Weather.com are actually for Miami Beach, if those figures are correct Happ.  That would explain Ray's comments that it has been colder than 32F in Miami before.

[richtrav]

Don

Actually the readings in Argentina are all from fairly low altitudes, I left out any high-altitude temps - they are really low. I've read where the Andes has a kind of deflective effect which enhances the cold waves coming down (or up) from Antarctica, not unlike the setup that can occur east of the Front Range of the Rockies. Even at the tropic at low altitude some impressive cold fronts can go through in the middle of summer. There is an old book called Las Heladas en la Argentina (or something like that) that gives extensive data. When I was last there in the summer of 2000-01 there was plenty of frost damage north of Quilino Cordoba - enough to freeze jacarandas back to very large diameter wood, and again north of Tucuman as you head towards Jujuy. The native tabebuias and Chorisia had been blasted back in a couple of spots, and some eucalyptus around the Tucuman-Jujuy border had lost about 15 ft of their top.

As for Tampa, readings of 20F or less are rare but not unprecedented - they occurred on 2 nights in Feb 1835, Dec 1894 (19F), Feb 1899 (only 21.5, but had the longest period - 28 consecutive hours - of subfreezing weather), Jan 1940 (18F), Jan 62 (18F), Dec 1983 (19F) and Jan 85 (21F). For some reason they were relatively spared from '89, only 24 I believe. Still, the big difference between Tampa and, say, the Daytona or even Orlando area is that the low temps tend to be briefer even if the absolute lows are similar. And which part of town you're in makes a big difference also.

And yes it does freeze in the Miami area, somewhere around here I have some fading pictures of badly burned palms from Fairchild taken in 1990. The way the Ficus benjamina had died back in that area made me suspect they had about 28 or so in Dec 89.

[SubTropicRay]

I wouldn't misinform you Jim.

The late John Bishock lived in Miami for the majority of his life.  He always spoke about the smell coming from the rotting vegetation after the more "severe" freezes.  He and wife Faith lived near Fairchild where the low was 26F in 1989.

[NBTX11]

I just wonder why all the "official" all time lows are 32F for Miami.  Like I said, maybe those are actually for Miami Beach.  Other than that, I can't figure out why Yahoo weather and Weather.com list 32F for all time low.

[richtrav]

Weather.com is not the best source in the world for records. If the local bureau is nice they'll post a history of their record temps on their website. For Florida (mostly central FL) there is an obscure book called A History of Florida Citrus Freezes that lists lots of temperature data

[happ]

Jim

Individual weather web sites are often anecdotal.  Official, meaning recognized by international standard of records, are national/public data.

Check your local NSW site.

[NBTX11]

Why would a site called "WEATHER.com" be antecdotal.  How difficult would it be for them to find out data, if we can look up data on NWS sites.  This does not make sense to me.  We can look up data, but they can't take the time to put correct data on their site?

[happ]

What I mean is that one can not link to government web sites since they are public. Other commercial weather services gather data, which is valuable & augments NWS.  The archives for NWS data is now $40 a year [if was $10 until Reagan raised it   ].

For example, I freely supply temperature/rainfall readings to the American Meteorological society & am a weather observer for the NWS [only  a few course/workshops are necessary].  One first organization requires annual membership and the other charges for information beyond a year old.

In other words, the study of data going back centuries is incorporated with ever-growing resources of information [calculated by event and norms of climate] is expensive for private web sites.

[PalmsZA]

Hi Ty

I actually meant to say that I coulndt grow those to plants in my valley.......maybe I should give 'em a go...

Nice to hear from you too, been watching CWC and Super 14 so havent spent much time on the site.... I get the feeling SA (I still cant believe we lost to Bangladesh!!!) and Aus are going to meet in the Semi's....its gonna hurt!

Cheers for now

Dennis

[SubTropicRay]

Weather.com has never been a favorite weather source for past or present data.  The NWS is the keeper of all reliable historical information.

[spockvr6]

Great historical data can be found here for the southeast----

http://www.sercc.com/climateinfo/historical/historical.html

[Tyrone]

(PalmsZA @ Apr. 16 2007,06:54)

QUOTE

I actually meant to say that I coulndt grow those to plants in my valley.......maybe I should give 'em a go...

Dennis, With a little help fom plastic, I'm sure you would.  

We have been down to 6C (garden hasn't seen below 8C) already though max's are in the low to mid 20's, with 30C on Monday. We got 40mm of rain on Sunday, which is April's total average rainfall for us. Even though it's cooled right down my Hydriastele wendlandiana is growing like a rocket.

regards

Tyrone