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Jealous of Europe's Weather


Yunder Wækraus
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6 hours ago, Cikas said:

Well this winter is not the best example. Most of Europe right now has the coldest winter in the last 50 years.

But average climate wise, Europe is much warmer continent than North America ( In Europe we can grow plants that North America can not on the same latitude ).

Europe is definitely not tropical, but southern Europe is sub-tropical.

You never know, the cold that the US has witnessed over the past several decades may, in fact, be reflective of a cold period, meaning that the continent is otherwise warmer/more stable in winter.

But that aside, no, Europe is not necessarily a warmer continent than North America; much of the continent does not have as warm of averages throughout the year (summer or otherwise) as corresponding places in the US. All that happens is that Europe is more moderated in temperature than equivalent North American locations (especially on the eastern side of the continent), preventing as extreme of cold deviations; notice that even in the warmest areas of Europe, 70-80F temps are infrequent in winter, while they occur all the time in the Southern US. Even with the cold deviations, the averages end up being similar to, or warmer, than the European Med subtropics.

 

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6 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I know it is a lot warmer, but there just isn't much growing there. Apart from oranges in Rome, some Ficus in Malta/Greece, and a few palms I didn't see anything tropical looking in Europe when I visited last. There are more tropical looking plants in Jacksonville, Florida by comparison. I'm guessing that has to do with it being much drier there.

That comes down to the genetics of the humid subtropics vs the Med. The humid subtropics are very wet and rainy compared to Med climates (especially during summer, when evapotranspiration is at its greatest), allowing vegetation to grow superfluously; combine that with a (relatively) warm climate year-round, and you have evergreen character perpetuating itself. Even if things like live oaks, magnolias, etc are cold hardy, their presentation looks exotic and tropical, due to being broad-leaf evergreens. The spanish moss (a bromeliad from the tropical Americas) helps accentuate this aesthetic.

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To be fair there are plenty of tropical plants all over the Mediterranean, just because some may not have jumped out on you when visiting certain areas, does not mean they are not there...

Here in Malta for example public plantings are usually of the common palms or other typical Med style plants, but in private gardens many people grow lots of tropicals, including different palms & other exotics like Plumeria, Hibiscus, Musa, Crotons etc.. Just about every plant I have ever seen grown as a houseplant in the UK I have seen growing outside in Malta.

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Malta - USDA Zone 11a

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15 hours ago, Xenon said:

Well the official state fruit is grapefruit and Texas is the birthplace of many red varieties like Ruby Red and Rio Red. Plenty of orange production too. But you're mostly right, much of the production is focused on a few counties in the deep south (upper end of zone 9b and 10a). The industry seems to be rebound from really bad freezes (like the 80s). There are a ton of royal palms, huge ficus, and even a few coconuts in that area...going to be carnage when the next big freeze comes. 

 

 

18 hours ago, necturus said:

South Texas is already a big producer of grapefruit. I don't think commercial citrus will ever be a big thing along the upper Texas Gulf coast, but I suspect as long term trends move towards this area being a low 9b and more coastal areas warm 9b/low 10a that small farms may be in the future. As Antony mentioned, satsumas are hardier, and there are cultivars that can take temperatures around 10 degrees F. I haven't seen any satsumas in the area that look fazed at all. My parents have a navel orange that's been in the ground 20 years in a completely unprotected spot. It defoliated in the freeze but will survive. We had already harvested a couple hundred oranges.

 

Like NorCalKing wrote above, garden citrus are possible (as evidenced by what some of you have posted here about citrus growing in South TX) but commercial citrus would be too risky. We have a huge citrus industry here in the San Joaquin Valley - about 70% of the state's production is in Fresno, Tulare and Kern counties. University of CA has a large test orchard/lab with over 250 varieties of citrus in Lind Cove. (Fun fact, Orange County use to be the leading citrus growing region in California in the 1950s with over 60,000 acres of commercial groves. As of 2013, it had less than 71 acres of commercial citrus.)

I can tell you that when temperatures dip into the low 30s, commercial growers scramble to protect their crops by flooding their fields prior to a cold night, and running wind turbines and large propane heaters in their orchards all night long. The trees have no problem with the low 30s, but freezing temperatures affect the quality of the fruit. There's little value in an orchard of defoliated but living trees if the fruit is not of market quality. 

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2 hours ago, Jdiaz31089 said:

Like NorCalKing wrote above, garden citrus are possible (as evidenced by what some of you have posted here about citrus growing in South TX) but commercial citrus would be too risky. We have a huge citrus industry here in the San Joaquin Valley - about 70% of the state's production is in Fresno, Tulare and Kern counties. University of CA has a large test orchard/lab with over 250 varieties of citrus in Lind Cove. (Fun fact, Orange County use to be the leading citrus growing region in California in the 1950s with over 60,000 acres of commercial groves. As of 2013, it had less than 71 acres of commercial citrus.)

I can tell you that when temperatures dip into the low 30s, commercial growers scramble to protect their crops by flooding their fields prior to a cold night, and running wind turbines and large propane heaters in their orchards all night long. The trees have no problem with the low 30s, but freezing temperatures affect the quality of the fruit. There's little value in an orchard of defoliated but living trees if the fruit is not of market quality. 

Here's an interesting article on the Texas citrus industry: Texas Citrus

"Thus, the Texas citrus industry began, leading to a peak of more than 100,000 acres in the 1940s. Moreover, Texas' reputation for quality red grapefruit production was established by the varieties which originated within the Valley.

Changes and improvements in the Texas citrus industry have occurred primarily in response to natural disasters, particularly the freezes of the late 1940s, 1951, 1962, 1983, and 1989. From the earliest plantings of seedy oranges and white, seedy grapefruit, today's orchards are primarily seedless oranges and super-red seedless grapefruit. Other improvements over time include closer tree spacings, laser land leveling, low-volume irrigation systems including microsprayers and drip tubing, mechanical grove care equipment, more extensive use of herbicides for orchard floor management, and a juice processing facility for packinghouse eliminations.

A severe freeze over Christmas of 1983 destroyed 70 percent of that season's crop and reduced acreage from 69,200 acres to about 22,000 acres. No citrus fruit was produced during the 1984-85 season and only a modest amount in the 1985-86 season. Replanting was well underway, with approximately 36,000 acres in production, when another major freeze over Christmas of 1989 reduced the acreage to around 12,000. Obviously, production was curtailed at that point, and did not resume until the 1991-92 season. Although acreage increased to about 35,000 during the 1990's, urbanization, other land use, overall citrus economics, and other factors combined to lower citrus acreage to an estimated 27,000 acres in 2005.

The Texas citrus industry is almost totally located in the Lower Rio Grande Valley, with about 85 percent of the acreage in Hidalgo County, 14 percent in Cameron County and only about 1 percent in Willacy County...

The total value of the citrus industry to the Texas economy normally is more than $200 million. The total crop value to the grower usually tops $50 million annually.

The present outlook for the Texas citrus industry is fairly stable. Although the overall size of the industry has decreased to about 40 percent of that existing in 1980, the demand for premium quality Texas Rio Red grapefruit and Texas sweet oranges continues to weather the vagaries of the market."

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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9 hours ago, Jdiaz31089 said:

Like NorCalKing wrote above, garden citrus are possible (as evidenced by what some of you have posted here about citrus growing in South TX) but commercial citrus would be too risky. We have a huge citrus industry here in the San Joaquin Valley - about 70% of the state's production is in Fresno, Tulare and Kern counties. University of CA has a large test orchard/lab with over 250 varieties of citrus in Lind Cove. (Fun fact, Orange County use to be the leading citrus growing region in California in the 1950s with over 60,000 acres of commercial groves. As of 2013, it had less than 71 acres of commercial citrus.)

I can tell you that when temperatures dip into the low 30s, commercial growers scramble to protect their crops by flooding their fields prior to a cold night, and running wind turbines and large propane heaters in their orchards all night long. The trees have no problem with the low 30s, but freezing temperatures affect the quality of the fruit. There's little value in an orchard of defoliated but living trees if the fruit is not of market quality. 

South Texas, meaning the Rio Grade Valley, is a source of commercial citrus. It's all zone 9b country, with much of Cameron County solid zone 10. The record lows in Fresno are almost identical to those of Brownsville. I agree that the upper Gulf coast will likely not see commercial citrus production in our lifetime, but who knows.

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12 hours ago, SouthSeaNate said:

To be fair there are plenty of tropical plants all over the Mediterranean, just because some may not have jumped out on you when visiting certain areas, does not mean they are not there...

Here in Malta for example public plantings are usually of the common palms or other typical Med style plants, but in private gardens many people grow lots of tropicals, including different palms & other exotics like Plumeria, Hibiscus, Musa, Crotons etc.. Just about every plant I have ever seen grown as a houseplant in the UK I have seen growing outside in Malta.

Yes some cities (as Hyeres les Palmiers, France) are growing amazing public gardens. Same for Bormes-les-Mimosas or Le Lavandou (next to Hyeres). If you visit french riviera - I mean not by motorway - you may see a lot tropical plants. Go also to Monaco or Menton (close to Italy border. Several botanical garden and public landscapes tropical oriented.

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Check out the threads on Tresco Gardens in the Isles of Scilly too...amazing things like Rhopalostylis and Archontophoenix growing at nearly 50N

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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5 hours ago, necturus said:

South Texas, meaning the Rio Grade Valley, is a source of commercial citrus. It's all zone 9b country, with much of Cameron County solid zone 10. The record lows in Fresno are almost identical to those of Brownsville. I agree that the upper Gulf coast will likely not see commercial citrus production in our lifetime, but who knows.

Citrus is cultivated commercially in South Louisiana, which has similar winter temp profiles to the Upper Texas coast. The coastal areas of Alabama, Mississippi, and the Florida Panhandle also have (small-scale) commercial citrus production, and they see lower winter temps (record and average):

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/43/2/290.full

Therefore, the Upper Texas coast can start commercial citrus plantings with no issue, as can other areas of the coastal South (Georgia, South Carolina, etc).

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13 hours ago, AnTonY said:

Citrus is cultivated commercially in South Louisiana, which has similar winter temp profiles to the Upper Texas coast. The coastal areas of Alabama, Mississippi, and the Florida Panhandle also have (small-scale) commercial citrus production, and they see lower winter temps (record and average):

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/43/2/290.full

Therefore, the Upper Texas coast can start commercial citrus plantings with no issue, as can other areas of the coastal South (Georgia, South Carolina, etc).

I don't think anyone is saying it can't be done. But there's probably a reason why the farmers have shied away from large scale plantings. Look it's a pretty lucrative crop, why haven't they planted large scale citrus if there's money to be made? My guess, it's just way too risky. Here's a quick comparison - Fresno CA where there are many large scale commercial citrus groves has an all time record low of 18f. New Orleans 7f. Ask yourself if this was commercially viable, why on earth is there not a huge citrus industry?

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On 25/1/2017 09:10:51, Xenon said:

Check out the threads on Tresco Gardens in the Isles of Scilly too...amazing things like Rhopalostylis and Archontophoenix growing at nearly 50N

Yes that amazing. But one every 30 or 40 years a lot of plants are killed by a major cold wave.

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On 1/25/2017, 5:10:28, NorCalKing said:

I don't think anyone is saying it can't be done. But there's probably a reason why the farmers have shied away from large scale plantings. Look it's a pretty lucrative crop, why haven't they planted large scale citrus if there's money to be made? My guess, it's just way too risky. Here's a quick comparison - Fresno CA where there are many large scale commercial citrus groves has an all time record low of 18f. New Orleans 7f. Ask yourself if this was commercially viable, why on earth is there not a huge citrus industry?

True. A record low of 18F certainly would induce more confidence and comfort in citrus cultivation than a record low of 7F. But that 7F might never happen again for a very long time (and hasn't happened in over a century); indeed, the late 1800s when that temp occurred corresponded to the "Little Ice Age," which brought colder than usual temps to the Eastern US.

In the end, many areas of the South are just to warm and mild often in winter to pass up the chance of commercial fruit production. I don't know if sugar cane is hardier than citrus ( or has growth requirements that allow it to work in the South, but not citrus), but if it isn't, then places like coastal Texas and Louisiana have already beyond proven their ability to cultivate citrus, as they've had commercial sugar productions. For safety, strong cultivation can always be concentrated in more water-moderated areas (like Plaquemines Parish in LA, or Galveston Bay/Island for upper Texas coast), and GMO experiments can always yield cultivars that can take the occasional cold spells. The US South definitely might have to step up its agricultural game, especially with Trump's possible plan to tax Mexican imports for his wall...

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On 26 January 2017, zootropical said:

Yes that amazing. But one every 30 or 40 years a lot of plants are killed by a major cold wave.

Tresco Abbey Gardens has only ever had the one devastating cold snap, that was in January 1987 when it it dropped to -7C, the lowest ever recorded. Winters are usually frost free there & were very mild since the gardens were first created over 100 years ago. That cold snap in 1987 killed mature Rhopalostylis sapida & Archontophoenix cunninghamiana, as well as other mature palms such as Livistona australis which were many decades old. They have replanted since & now their Rhopalostylis (which were grown from seed from the original palms) are trunking & fruiting once more...

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Malta - USDA Zone 11a

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1. I think the truly best*** climate in Europe (***: I mean the most consistently warm... in winter, especially) would be somewhere between Malaga (Costa del Sol, Spain) and Almeria (Costa de Almeria, Spain)... Besides, that portion of coastline has got an evocative name, i.e. the Costa Tropical. Well, it's more a name used for touristic purposes than a reality, but indeed, the coast around Nerja and Motril is Europe's closest to tropical impressions.

2. The truly most impressive*** climate in Europe (***: I mean the warmest -in comparison to- its latitude) would be somewhere between Hyères (Var coast, France) and Menton (Maritime Alps, France). Indeed, in relation to its latitude, the French Riviera is one of the warmest areas (if not -the- warmest) in the world (in the world of 43 / 44° North areas) when you look both at its winter averages and its yearly averages. Olive trees, orange trees, lemon trees, palm trees and the fact that this portion of coastline is always green, even in winter, participates to its overall "almost tropical" looking.

____________________

3. Outside of the Mediterranean area, and well above 45° of latitude North (actually even closer to 50° North!), the Isles of Scilly (Cornwall, UK) get the most impressive winters: almost systematically freeze-free, it boasts palms, mimosas and so on! Actually, it's usually freeze-free (sub-zero temperatures) several years in a row and you get a few snowflakes every other winter! The only problem being that it's very cool, almost chilly, in summer... :rolleyes: With temperatures generally below 22°C (70°F), even during afternoons. And also, it's not really too sunny.

____________________

Anyway, most of southern Europe below 43° of latitude North is "subtropical Mediterranean" to the point that we could say that it's something like "part-time tropical" (lol :P ), let's say 3 to 5 months a year in the South of France (Provence or Languedoc regions), in central Italy (Tuscany or Rome regions), to more than half a year in the South of Spain (Andalusia), in the South of Greece (from Athens, to Crete and Rhodes islands).

Worth mentioning that the southern coast of Crete still holds the European record for the warmest long-term yearly average, at around 20°C, i.e. more than the Costa Tropical (but it can get colder at times in Crete, for example, this winter 2017).

PICTURES OF MENTON (FRANCE), looking like California! But almost TEN degrees more northerly! Something to be jealous of! lol ;) 

GBPIX_photo_64495.jpg GBPIX_photo_64494.jpg GBPIX_photo_64493.jpg

3ipk.jpg

Edited by DG57
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As for me, I'm jealous of California! :) Even if winters roughly are as mild as in southern Spain, there is something uncommon: it can get (at times) hot! in winter! Just a bit more inland than Santa Barbara or Los Angeles, with a Mediterranean climate, you can still have in December, January or February, sometimes, 30 to 35°C*** (86 to 95°F), and thus, even if the overall winter average is only of 17 to 18°C (62 to 64°F / just like southern Spain). If I reckon well, this is due to Santa Ana winds (Foehn effect over the high mountain ranges of California).

If only there wasn't the earthquake problem (I'm fairly frightened of that), I would think of moving to California. :) 

***: this is even more than Florida could get in winter! Even if Florida is more consistently warm than California in winter, of course.

Edited by DG57
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Yes french riviera have a very good climate. I am gardening nearby Hyères-les-Palmiers for 20 years now. But believe it or not we had temperature around -10 °C on the coastal plain in january 1985 (some place with -7°C others with - 14 °C. And I cannot plan to tender plants just because such event can happen again.

 

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On 28/1/2017, 2:29:40, DG57 said:

1. I think the truly best*** climate in Europe (***: I mean the most consistently warm... in winter, especially) would be somewhere between Malaga (Costa del Sol, Spain) and Almeria (Costa de Almeria, Spain)... Besides, that portion of coastline has got an evocative name, i.e. the Costa Tropical. Well, it's more a name used for touristic purposes than a reality, but indeed, the coast around Nerja and Motril is Europe's closest to tropical impressions.

2. The truly most impressive*** climate in Europe (***: I mean the warmest -in comparison to- its latitude) would be somewhere between Hyères (Var coast, France) and Menton (Maritime Alps, France). Indeed, in relation to its latitude, the French Riviera is one of the warmest areas (if not -the- warmest) in the world (in the world of 43 / 44° North areas) when you look both at its winter averages and its yearly averages. Olive trees, orange trees, lemon trees, palm trees and the fact that this portion of coastline is always green, even in winter, participates to its overall "almost tropical" looking.

____________________

3. Outside of the Mediterranean area, and well above 45° of latitude North (actually even closer to 50° North!), the Isles of Scilly (Cornwall, UK) get the most impressive winters: almost systematically freeze-free, it boasts palms, mimosas and so on! Actually, it's usually freeze-free (sub-zero temperatures) several years in a row and you get a few snowflakes every other winter! The only problem being that it's very cool, almost chilly, in summer... :rolleyes: With temperatures generally below 22°C (70°F), even during afternoons. And also, it's not really too sunny.

____________________

Anyway, most of southern Europe below 43° of latitude North is "subtropical Mediterranean" to the point that we could say that it's something like "part-time tropical" (lol :P ), let's say 3 to 5 months a year in the South of France (Provence or Languedoc regions), in central Italy (Tuscany or Rome regions), to more than half a year in the South of Spain (Andalusia), in the South of Greece (from Athens, to Crete and Rhodes islands).

Worth mentioning that the southern coast of Crete still holds the European record for the warmest long-term yearly average, at around 20°C, i.e. more than the Costa Tropical (but it can get colder at times in Crete, for example, this winter 2017).

PICTURES OF MENTON (FRANCE), looking like California! But almost TEN degrees more northerly! Something to be jealous of! lol ;) 

GBPIX_photo_64495.jpg GBPIX_photo_64494.jpg GBPIX_photo_64493.jpg

3ipk.jpg

Your pictures do not justice to the actual potential of Menton. You had to show pictures of Archontophoenix and superb Caryota specimens (and giant Ficus trees as well), which I  do know that they exist and thrive there!

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Actually, only one of these pictures is of Menton (the first one). The two other photos, with the palm-lined avenue (Syagrus?), are of Beausoleil (close to Monaco). Sorry for the misleading first information. :) 

@zootropical, indeed, in 1985, or even in 1956 (the two coldest winters you have ever had over there, in the French Mediterranean), parts of the Riviera did drop to -7°C / -10°C. But it concerned by then only the part from Cannes down south to the Var coast, and also, it happens only once or twice every 50 years. Also, I know that the northern part of the Riviera, between Nice and Menton, because of its situation just *south of* and *below* the Alps (there are very high peaks barely a few kilometers inland) makes it extremely mild. Saint-Jean-Cap-Ferrat, Monaco, Menton and other towns didn't ever make below -4°C, even in 1985. The very high mountains located just to the north of the coastline especially prevent it to be invaded by colder waves coming from the north of Europe. Anyway, you did right by precising this! Thanks.

Edited by DG57
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8 hours ago, DG57 said:

Actually, only one of these pictures is of Menton (the first one). The two other photos, with the palm-lined avenue (Syagrus?), are of Beausoleil (close to Monaco). Sorry for the misleading first information. :) 

@zootropical, indeed, in 1985, or even in 1956 (the two coldest winters you have ever had over there, in the French Mediterranean), parts of the Riviera did drop to -7°C / -10°C. But it concerned by then only the part from Cannes down south to the Var coast, and also, it happens only once or twice every 50 years. Also, I know that the northern part of the Riviera, between Nice and Menton, because of its situation just *south of* and *below* the Alps (there are very high peaks barely a few kilometers inland) makes it extremely mild. Saint-Jean-Cap-Ferrat, Monaco, Menton and other towns didn't ever make below -4°C, even in 1985. The very high mountains located just to the north of the coastline especially prevent it to be invaded by colder waves coming from the north of Europe. Anyway, you did right by precising this! Thanks.

I don't know Monaco microclimate because I am gardening around Hyères. But informations differs about the lowest temperature in 1985. 

Here a link to Plantaexotica. http://actus.societe-francaise-acclimatation.fr/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/2014janvier.pdf

In this issue, a article has been write by the actual director of Jardin Exotique de Monaco. - 7 °C in January 1989 inside this garden (source : director JM Solichon)... I also visited a private collection in Nice who grown large collection of palms/cycads/cactus. During this same period leaves of Cycas revoluta turn brown. So I think he get at least the same temperature.

We have to live such event to understand what can happen. When cold air fly above french riviera everybody can be touch...

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Is the winter of 1985 the one, that Jacques Deleuze calls it hiver terrible in his book about palms for the mediterranean region? If yes, I think the author gives a very detailed report about palm casualties in France during this winet.

Edited by Phoenikakias
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@zootropical, impossible that Monaco got to -7°C in January 1989, as Nice's coldest value during that very month was of +2°C. January 1989 didn't record any coldish values actually, and rather was a normal winter month. Here are the data:

data.thumb.jpg.af82d551fb0e179d68678a9e8

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1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

Is the winter of 1985 the one, that Jacques Deleuze calls it hiver terrible in his book about palms for the mediterranean region? If yes, I think the author gives a very detailed report about palm casualties in France during this winet.

Yes it is this winter. At this time I was in Paris and I didn't take care of plants. But since 1995, when I talk to gardeners around here, this winter is the reference in term of planting exotics. 

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On 24/1/2017 4:01:47, RedRabbit said:

I know it is a lot warmer, but there just isn't much growing there. Apart from oranges in Rome, some Ficus in Malta/Greece, and a few palms I didn't see anything tropical looking in Europe when I visited last. There are more tropical looking plants in Jacksonville, Florida by comparison. I'm guessing that has to do with it being much drier there.

Next time take a visit on the southern coast of Spain. You'll change your mind :)

Take a look to this: http://www.infojardin.net/foro_jardineria/temas/26520.html in Almuñecar, Spain you'll find:

rave1.jpg

papayo3.jpg

http://www.infojardin.com/imagenes-subir/getimg/525.jpg525.jpg

 

http://www.infojardin.com/imagenes-subir/getimg/108.jpg108.jpg

http://www.infojardin.com/imagenes-subir/getimg/1215.jpg1215.jpg

176.jpg

etc

 

 

 

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I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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On 28/1/2017 1:29:40, DG57 said:

 

1. I think the truly best*** climate in Europe (***: I mean the most consistently warm... in winter, especially) would be somewhere between Malaga (Costa del Sol, Spain) and Almeria (Costa de Almeria, Spain)... Besides, that portion of coastline has got an evocative name, i.e. the Costa Tropical. Well, it's more a name used for touristic purposes than a reality, but indeed, the coast around Nerja and Motril is Europe's closest to tropical impressions.

2. The truly most impressive*** climate in Europe (***: I mean the warmest -in comparison to- its latitude) would be somewhere between Hyères (Var coast, France) and Menton (Maritime Alps, France). Indeed, in relation to its latitude, the French Riviera is one of the warmest areas (if not -the- warmest) in the world (in the world of 43 / 44° North areas) when you look both at its winter averages and its yearly averages. Olive trees, orange trees, lemon trees, palm trees and the fact that this portion of coastline is always green, even in winter, participates to its overall "almost tropical" looking.

____________________

3. Outside of the Mediterranean area, and well above 45° of latitude North (actually even closer to 50° North!), the Isles of Scilly (Cornwall, UK) get the most impressive winters: almost systematically freeze-free, it boasts palms, mimosas and so on! Actually, it's usually freeze-free (sub-zero temperatures) several years in a row and you get a few snowflakes every other winter! The only problem being that it's very cool, almost chilly, in summer... :rolleyes: With temperatures generally below 22°C (70°F), even during afternoons. And also, it's not really too sunny.

____________________

Anyway, most of southern Europe below 43° of latitude North is "subtropical Mediterranean" to the point that we could say that it's something like "part-time tropical" (lol :P ), let's say 3 to 5 months a year in the South of France (Provence or Languedoc regions), in central Italy (Tuscany or Rome regions), to more than half a year in the South of Spain (Andalusia), in the South of Greece (from Athens, to Crete and Rhodes islands).

Worth mentioning that the southern coast of Crete still holds the European record for the warmest long-term yearly average, at around 20°C, i.e. more than the Costa Tropical (but it can get colder at times in Crete, for example, this winter 2017).

PICTURES OF MENTON (FRANCE), looking like California! But almost TEN degrees more northerly! Something to be jealous of! lol ;) 

GBPIX_photo_64495.jpg GBPIX_photo_64494.jpg GBPIX_photo_64493.jpg

3ipk.jpg

wow mate, you know a lot!

yup, that's the best climate in Europe. southernmost coast of Spain. Papayas thriving & fruiting, large cultivars of mango maded for exporting... I would like to live there. One question, where did you find those places at southern Crete with averages near 20ºC? 

After doing a long research in many european cities/towns I found that the warmest in the NOAA period of 1981-2010 and of an official station is Seville in Spain with 19.2ºC. After that goes Almeria with 19.1ºC. After that goes the city station of Athens but the period is not 1981-2010, is more recent.

Edited by pRoeZa*
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I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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This is how the city of Málaga looks in January

2mow2zs.jpg

 

Some more tropical species found in the named "Costa Tropical" of Spain

 

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I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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1 minute ago, pRoeZa* said:

This is how the city of Málaga looks in January

2mow2zs.jpg

 

Some more tropical species found in the named "Costa Tropical" of Spain

 

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Wow!

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Those are found in the coast of Alicante, at 38ºN! Palm tree oasis in Elche, between a very arid climate:

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This is Benidorm, which has an avg yearly temperature close to 19ºC:

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& Roystoneas in Dénia at 38.50ºN! and San Juan de Alicante at 38º25'N 

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But the most impressive for me is this one, Bétera which is inland, about 22km from the coast and at 39º 35'N !!

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A few more of the Roystonea paradise of Málaga!

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Edited by pRoeZa*
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I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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12 minutes ago, Jdiaz31089 said:

What species is this???

Raphia farinifera

If someone is interested, many photos were extracted from this thread: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/22691-palmeras-despues-del-invierno/

that palm tree and many more which I posted above (and all of that thread) is how it looks after the winter. This just shows how warm is the winter in Málaga, and it was on 2015, which was a slightly colder winter than in normal averages (not much, just a bit). 

Veitchia spp after the winter in Málaga:

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Dictyosperma album

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Rhophalistylis sapida

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In Málaga there are also lots of Hyophorbes (bottle palms), lots of Raveneas (although where I live at 38º55'N is pretty extended too) but mostly Roystoneas! 

Although as in any other Spanish city, the most extended palms are Washingtonias, followed by Phoenixes and Syagrus. 

Even in Madrid at the center of Spain and at 650m of altitude there are plenty of Phoenixes, followed by Washingtonias and Butias. More than Trachycarpus!

Some Madrid palms located at altitudes between 600 and 700m, and in the heart of Spain, far from the ocean/sea!

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Edited by pRoeZa*
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I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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When I traveled in Spain from Barcelona to Elche I won't something change after passing Valencia. The climate is more hot. Anyway I don't know Spain really but now I want to go back. But what about summer on the Costa Tropical? Everything burning without massive irrigation? 

I want in south Portugal last December and I was surprise because temperature are low. This maximum around 14 °C. Probably it wasn't the good moment.

Thank you for your pictures. Wonderfull plants.

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4 minutes ago, zootropical said:

When I traveled in Spain from Barcelona to Elche I won't something change after passing Valencia. The climate is more hot. Anyway I don't know Spain really but now I want to go back. But what about summer on the Costa Tropical? Everything burning without massive irrigation? 

I want in south Portugal last December and I was surprise because temperature are low. This maximum around 14 °C. Probably it wasn't the good moment.

Thank you for your pictures. Wonderfull plants.

The summer in Costa Tropical is pretty good, unless on sporadic hot waves from the Sahara, maximums stay at 29-30-31ºC. 

Talking about Costa Tropical, Motril's official station of AEMET recorded in late December of 2016 a max. of 25.0ºC, while on 11th January 24.0ºC.

Yesterday Motril recorded 22.7ºC. Today 20.8ºC. Probably the warmest zone in Europe. Probably, I don't know at 100% so I will not state anything. :lol:

Edited by pRoeZa*

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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8 minutes ago, DG57 said:

@pRoeZa*, absolutely stunning and incredible photos!! Thank you!

As for southern Crete being 20°C, it's on Wikipedia, but I had also got the info from the official Greek MetOffice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ierapetra

i tried to check the source which says 20.1ºC but the website doesn't work (http://magouliana.freehost.gr/klima.pdf) anyways, I checked the other sources and one talks about the sun hours and the other is what the climate chart says. 23.24ºC + 15.02ºC / 2 = 19.18ºC, so it would be the 2nd warmest spot in Europe.

Anyways it's possible also to be 20.1ºC, because the winter minimums are very high on that part of the Mediterranean.

Regards

Edited by pRoeZa*

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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On 30/01/2017 à, Phoenikakias said:

DG57, do you live in Nice around Parc des Sports?

Hey! No, I live in the North-East of France actually, between the city of Metz, and the city of Luxembourg: I'm at 15 km from the French-Luxembourg border. ;) 

@pRoeZa*, I have to go to the southern Costas next time I go on holidays!! I need to see that by myself! :D Fantastic!

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@pRoeZa*, worth noting that even if southern Crete gets nicely mild average minimums in winter, it's NOT as protected as the South Coast of Spain, the latter being protected by the Sierra Nevada. Southern Costas get cold far more rarely than Crete.

Edited by DG57
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55 minutes ago, DG57 said:

@pRoeZa*, absolutely stunning and incredible photos!! Thank you!

As for southern Crete being 20°C, it's on Wikipedia, but I had also got the info from the official Greek MetOffice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ierapetra

This link refers to Ierapetra, I 've been there and I assure you that there are places in southern Crete considerably warmer than Ierapetra, like Myrtos near Ierapetra (I was freezing during summer in Ierapetra while Myrtos was warm), Arvi, Xerokampos, Keratokampos.Cretans themselves use to make their summer vacation in fall in the souther coast of Sfakia. In Costa Tropica people may grow commercially Mangos, in Arvi people grow commercially bananas.

Edited by Phoenikakias
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8 hours ago, pRoeZa* said:

This is how the city of Málaga looks in January

2mow2zs.jpg

 

Some more tropical species found in the named "Costa Tropical" of Spain

 

P1010198.JPG

010320102120.jpg

ou0gmr.png

er0k2b.jpg

b80pli.jpg

post-9419-0-60519500-1428732245.jpg

a088yw.jpg

Wow, I've never seen anything remotely like this in Europe. 

Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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Most Crete weather stations are not something I would consider reliable (being placed on rooftops and such), regardless of such accuracy, some people believe Ierapetra, Paleochora and Lentas are among the warmest mean temperature places in Crete. However I believe they are not as protected against extreme weather as Spain etc, as someone mentioned before. 

Zootropical, yes 14 c max during December in southern Portugal is probably an outlier (though there are some micro climates there). If you think about it places like the coastal Viana do Castelo way further north at 41.70N have max of around 15 in January.

Just to add to the thread, there are also few micro climates in Portugal with no freezing temperatures as well. Some pictures I took last year:

Porto around 41.10N :

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Archontophoenix (Though I have seen better looking ones there):

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Lisbon area:

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Royals in Expo zone in Lisbon around 39N (one of the freezing free areas as far as I know):

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There are some Mangos in southern Portugal and a few people plant them in Lisbon for example. So there is indeed potential in southern Europe. 

Edited by Cluster
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