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Jealous of Europe's Weather


Yunder Wækraus
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Can you imagine what palm-growing conditions would be like in the American South if we had a tall range of east-west mountains (like the Alps) separating Texas through to the Carolinas from south-driving arctic blasts AND if the gulf stream warmed America's coast the way it now warms Wester Europe? Check out this map that shows where European cities are situated relative to American locations of the same latitude. They're growing palms and citrus in Spain, parts of France, Italy, Greece, Turkey, etc., but Jacksonville Florida, which is across from Africa, is too cold for commercial citrus production! 'Tis unfair. http://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/post/125519562883/map-of-north-american-and-european-cities

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C'est l vie! BTW I am also VERY envious of the californian winter at same latitude and proximity to sea as is my garden, but ... hey, c'est la vie!

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I am jealous of South Florida's weather...Can't find that in Europe...

What you really should be jealous of is our seas...no sharks and tropical like sandy beaches with warmer water than South Fla's. 30C...

''To try,is to risk failure.......To not try,is to guarantee it''

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Looks like I’m in southern France, close it the coast. Between Seattle and Portland on the European map. One thing we have in common with France is are winter weather is like Paris, foggy; rainy.

Locally where finally dipping below 90F this week. No rain in site.

Edited by Palm crazy
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Lol. I suppose my post title could be misunderstood. I don't want Europe's weather (or North Africa's deserts). But I would like America to be equally temperate. When's the last time Libya had freezing hail? I'm guessing never :-)

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Actually hail is pretty common(up to a few times a year) in my part of Greece and other warm areas here and happens with warm temperatures. Apart from the mechanical damage it causes, plants don't really care about it. I usually get it in spring or early summer with warm or even hot temperatures and hailstones can be big and even carpet the ground in some cases

I bet Libya does have seen hail in numerous occasions. It's not a precipitate of cold regions only, even rainforests see it every now and then

''To try,is to risk failure.......To not try,is to guarantee it''

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I am jealous of South Florida's weather...Can't find that in Europe...

What you really should be jealous of is our seas...no sharks and tropical like sandy beaches with warmer water than South Fla's. 30C...

No sharks? There are plenty of sharks in the Mediterranean sea, including Great Whites, though thankfully attacks on humans is very rare...

And Libya doesn't just get hail, they sometimes can get snow too...

145ed22f0327e50c9d33403c04e7a00b86507997

But no I wouldn't want to live there either :mrlooney:

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Malta - USDA Zone 11a

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We certainly do have sharks in the mediterranean, many kinds including the well known great whites and blue sharks, but with 6 human attacks since 1967(?) and only half of them fatal, i think we are fine.....I have not seen a shark during any of my dives either, and i am actually quite keen on sharks and want to dive with them. I went diving in the Florida Keys as well in a place famed for hammerhead sharks but saw no shark at all, but i have dived many more times in Greece than elsewhere. I even got to see a dolphin last summer on a dive at my favourite diving spot in Repi island :)

''To try,is to risk failure.......To not try,is to guarantee it''

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Actually hail is pretty common(up to a few times a year) in my part of Greece and other warm areas here and happens with warm temperatures. Apart from the mechanical damage it causes, plants don't really care about it. I usually get it in spring or early summer with warm or even hot temperatures and hailstones can be big and even carpet the ground in some cases

I bet Libya does have seen hail in numerous occasions. It's not a precipitate of cold regions only, even rainforests see it every now and then

Here in the rain forest in the equatorial low land humid tropics every once in a while it hails. A rare event but I have seen it.

Here is a video of one of the events. It is also a good video of what the rain storms here frequently look like. When it decides to rain it comes down. Of course it rains a lot. In southern Brazil hail is relatively common. We also have sharks here. They swim 1,500 miles up the Amazon River. I imagine they even make it to Peru.

https://youtu.be/Vopi6eDDFcQ

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Don Kittelson

 

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03° 06' 07'' South 60° 01' 30'' West

Altitude 92 Meters / 308 feet above sea level

1,500 kms / 932 miles to the mouth of the Amazon River

 

Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil - A Cidade da Floresta

Where the world´s largest Tropical Rainforest embraces the Greatest Rivers in the World. .

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Click here to visit Amazonas

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Great video, thunders are falling one after the other! I love this weather and get to see similar in Pyrgos, but nothing like true rainforest weather!!!!

Nice to hear you have seen hail firsthand there too! Did you notice anything in particular to plants afterwards? Was the undergrowth where hail collected, damaged or did not care? I don't see anything more than shredded leafs here but my plants have some hardiness to them while young tropical tree seedlings probably do not, so its interesting wether they remain ok through such events

''To try,is to risk failure.......To not try,is to guarantee it''

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There was not enough to do any damage I believe. Now in my home state, Montana in the USA there is sometimes hail as big as golf balls or more. And, there it does do damage.

Here we actually get more violent storms this time of the year when cold fronts from Antarctica make it this far. It is only the very tail end of the cold fronts, but when it interacts with heated air it can get violent.

dk

Don Kittelson

 

LIFE ON THE RIO NEGRO

03° 06' 07'' South 60° 01' 30'' West

Altitude 92 Meters / 308 feet above sea level

1,500 kms / 932 miles to the mouth of the Amazon River

 

Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil - A Cidade da Floresta

Where the world´s largest Tropical Rainforest embraces the Greatest Rivers in the World. .

82331.gif

 

Click here to visit Amazonas

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I am jealous of South Florida's weather...Can't find that in Europe...

What you really should be jealous of is our seas...no sharks and tropical like sandy beaches with warmer water than South Fla's. 30C...

Are your waters really warmer than ours? That's kind of interesting. The waters off of where I live are between 20 C in winter and 30 C in summer, but it's really only swimmable 4 or 5 months out of the year without a wetsuit.

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

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We certainly do have sharks in the mediterranean, many kinds including the well known great whites and blue sharks, but with 6 human attacks since 1967(?) and only half of them fatal, i think we are fine.....I have not seen a shark during any of my dives either, and i am actually quite keen on sharks and want to dive with them. I went diving in the Florida Keys as well in a place famed for hammerhead sharks but saw no shark at all, but i have dived many more times in Greece than elsewhere. I even got to see a dolphin last summer on a dive at my favourite diving spot in Repi island :)

The last fatality due to a shark attack in Malta was in the 1950's, but a windsurfer had his board bitten into in 2010. Apparently the area between Malta & Sicily is the main breeding area for Great Whites in the Med & one of the largest ever caught was accidently netted in Malta in 1987...

We also have Blacktip Reef Sharks here, though they are rare & also Sand Tiger Sharks... I think they are beautiful creatures, but unfortunately many people think they are monsters due to films like 'Jaws' :mellow2:

Malta - USDA Zone 11a

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I am jealous of South Florida's weather...Can't find that in Europe...

What you really should be jealous of is our seas...no sharks and tropical like sandy beaches with warmer water than South Fla's. 30C...

Are your waters really warmer than ours? That's kind of interesting. The waters off of where I live are between 20 C in winter and 30 C in summer, but it's really only swimmable 4 or 5 months out of the year without a wetsuit.

I was wondering that too so I did a little looking. The water temps in Greece are similar to parts of FL but its a big state.

Using http://www.seatemperature.org/

Here is Athens monthly average water temp

athens.png

Jacksonville FL (North FL)

jacksonville-beach.png

Tampa (West Coast)

tampa.png

Miami (South FL)

miami.png

There are lots of other cities on that site as well.

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I was in Greece for 3 weeks this summer and I rarely got into the water to swim- very chilly. It's not as warm as the southeast Atlantic ocean but then again, I swam in the Aegean Sea off the coast of Crete rather than mainland Greece. Very chilly. But then again, very little to no waves and crystal clear water.

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Just to make something clear; Aegean Sea (to which is also included the Athens Bay called Saronikos and also grosso modo the sea surrounding the Crete) is distinguished by strong currents and this is natural because it stretches right between the Dardanelles strait and the Suez canal linking the enclosed Med to the much colder Black Sea and the very warm Red Sea respectively.Now that a second and bigger canal has become recently available for ship traffic in Egypt, it remains for us to see how and to which extent the marine enviroment will be affected. But this is a very overlooked aspect due to the prevailing geopolitical consequences... Currents make here the water cooler but they also clean it very fast! Do not forget that Med (as its name reveals) is or used to be a quite enclosed sea. I remeber having taken a sea bath in an isolated place in the Ligurian gulf (which belongs to west mediterranean basin) to realise with terror how much unclear (in comparison of course) the water was, but it was also definitely warmer!

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Lol. I suppose my post title could be misunderstood. I don't want Europe's weather (or North Africa's deserts). But I would like America to be equally temperate. When's the last time Libya had freezing hail? I'm guessing never :-)

You seem overlooking the fact that Europe geographically is not a continent of itself but rather the WESTERN (more or less...) COASTAL part of a single super continent called EURASIA. So the rules of distinction between western vs eastern coastal weather pattern, which apply on EVERY continent, apply as well on Europe as the western coastal part of EURASIA. So there is also in the american continent the equivalent part with temperate climate on its western coastal part. Nature makes no discrimination. For your dreams to come true in the eastern coastal part of North America, earth must reverse the spinning around its axis, very .. apocalyptic I must say! :winkie:

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I am jealous of South Florida's weather...Can't find that in Europe...

What you really should be jealous of is our seas...no sharks and tropical like sandy beaches with warmer water than South Fla's. 30C...

Are your waters really warmer than ours? That's kind of interesting. The waters off of where I live are between 20 C in winter and 30 C in summer, but it's really only swimmable 4 or 5 months out of the year without a wetsuit.

Adriatic sea is very warm for example. Sea temperatures here are 27-30C during summer.

Here near Dubrovnik sea was in 29-30C range whole month.

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The sea is very warm in some areas here, such as Skiathos island, where the surface waters are always upwards of 30C during the summer(32-33C can be a daily occurrence. Of course if you dive down to around the 17m mark, temperature drops dramatically, sometimes as low as 13-16C, but usually around 24C). I have been going to this island for 12years for its calm and warm waters, not even a day ruined by heavy wind and choppy sea.

Areas that get frequent currents can be chillier and open expanses of sea, such as the more exposed beaches of Crete, are chillier than most of the Greek coastal areas but if you look for more enclosed gulfs you can still find very warm waters. Islands that are not hit by wind as much such as Skiathos, some of the less exposed Aegean sea islands(especially their southern, wind protected sides), part of Euvoia, Peloponnesos and others(we got an astonishing number of beautiful islands here compared to the total land mass) have waters with 30C + surface waters. Saronicos gulf(where Athens is also located) is not overly warm nor chilly and its certainly not one of our best seas!

The ionian sea is a bit chillier but within reason, its just more open and temperatures of 30C are not that usual, more like 26-28C

The sea is swimmable for 5-6 months easily without a wetsuit and some people swim all year. If i lived closer to the sea, i would certainly be one of them! The earliest i have swam without a wetsuit is mid-March and it was ok. The enclosed waters, such as in beaches and gulfs, are warmer than the temperature measurements of the graphs

''To try,is to risk failure.......To not try,is to guarantee it''

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Can you imagine what palm-growing conditions would be like in the American South if we had a tall range of east-west mountains (like the Alps) separating Texas through to the Carolinas from south-driving arctic blasts AND if the gulf stream warmed America's coast the way it now warms Wester Europe? Check out this map that shows where European cities are situated relative to American locations of the same latitude. They're growing palms and citrus in Spain, parts of France, Italy, Greece, Turkey, etc., but Jacksonville Florida, which is across from Africa, is too cold for commercial citrus production! 'Tis unfair. http://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/post/125519562883/map-of-north-american-and-european-cities

Nice map, and I know what you mean, I've thought about that a lot too. The climate would be much nicer if we either had a nice large east-west mountain range, or if Canada was ocean instead of Canada that would help a lot (sorry Canada).

Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked back to the stone age of zone 8.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am jealous of South Florida's weather...Can't find that in Europe...

What you really should be jealous of is our seas...no sharks and tropical like sandy beaches with warmer water than South Fla's. 30C...

Are your waters really warmer than ours? That's kind of interesting. The waters off of where I live are between 20 C in winter and 30 C in summer, but it's really only swimmable 4 or 5 months out of the year without a wetsuit.

Adriatic sea is very warm for example. Sea temperatures here are 27-30C during summer.

Here near Dubrovnik sea was in 29-30C range whole month.

The sea temperatures in the Mediterranean have been above average this summer, it doesn't normally get to 30C...

Malta - USDA Zone 11a

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I am jealous of South Florida's weather...Can't find that in Europe...

What you really should be jealous of is our seas...no sharks and tropical like sandy beaches with warmer water than South Fla's. 30C...

Are your waters really warmer than ours? That's kind of interesting. The waters off of where I live are between 20 C in winter and 30 C in summer, but it's really only swimmable 4 or 5 months out of the year without a wetsuit.

Adriatic sea is very warm for example. Sea temperatures here are 27-30C during summer.

Here near Dubrovnik sea was in 29-30C range whole month.

The sea temperatures in the Mediterranean have been above average this summer, it doesn't normally get to 30C...

He is saying Adriatic sea not Mediterranean.

Adriatic always get warmer because it's enclaved (it ends) on Croatia and all warm currents go there; if you see the temperature charts always in the Adriatic area are as warm as the hotter parts of the Mediterranean.

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am jealous of South Florida's weather...Can't find that in Europe...

What you really should be jealous of is our seas...no sharks and tropical like sandy beaches with warmer water than South Fla's. 30C...

Are your waters really warmer than ours? That's kind of interesting. The waters off of where I live are between 20 C in winter and 30 C in summer, but it's really only swimmable 4 or 5 months out of the year without a wetsuit.

Adriatic sea is very warm for example. Sea temperatures here are 27-30C during summer.

Here near Dubrovnik sea was in 29-30C range whole month.

The sea temperatures in the Mediterranean have been above average this summer, it doesn't normally get to 30C...

Here at Adriatic, sea temperatures from 27-30C are normal every summer ( near Dalmatia ). Adriatic sea is very warm.

Mediterranean sea is not the same as Adriatic. Like pRoeZa* already said, Adriatic is enclaved.

Edited by Cikas
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Here at Adriatic, sea temperatures from 27-30C are normal every summer ( near Dalmatia ). Adriatic sea is very warm.

Mediterranean sea is not the same as Adriatic. Like pRoeZa* already said, Adriatic is enclaved.

Still isnt that warm. I dont know where U get all that informations from? Everything above 27C isnt normal and alltime max. is still 28.8C. I dont get it?

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Here at Adriatic, sea temperatures from 27-30C are normal every summer ( near Dalmatia ). Adriatic sea is very warm.

Mediterranean sea is not the same as Adriatic. Like pRoeZa* already said, Adriatic is enclaved.

Still isnt that warm. I dont know where U get all that informations from? Everything above 27C isnt normal and alltime max. is still 28.8C. I dont get it?

Nope that max is for period from 1911-1961. And not all station where active back then.

http://www.hrt.hr/295179/vrijeme-i-promet/vremenska-prognoza-1482015

Here in Dubrovnik max temperatures every summer are from 27-30C.

Even in September.

Screen_Shot_09_01_15_at_11_54_PM.png

Edited by Cikas
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  • 1 year later...
On 8/2/2015, 1:04:09, Yunder Wækraus said:

Can you imagine what palm-growing conditions would be like in the American South if we had a tall range of east-west mountains (like the Alps) separating Texas through to the Carolinas from south-driving arctic blasts AND if the gulf stream warmed America's coast the way it now warms Wester Europe? Check out this map that shows where European cities are situated relative to American locations of the same latitude. They're growing palms and citrus in Spain, parts of France, Italy, Greece, Turkey, etc., but Jacksonville Florida, which is across from Africa, is too cold for commercial citrus production! 'Tis unfair. http://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/post/125519562883/map-of-north-american-and-european-cities

Actually, it might be worth it for the coastal South to start again with commercial citrus production, at least with strong basis around satsumas and kumquats; temperatures haven't been below 20F in most of the region in decades, and it appears that the mid 20th century might have actually been a time of unusual cold (with the warmer, more stable weather being more normal). People already can have garden citrus, and out and about (not super-protected with TLC). Places like Houston and South Louisiana have had sugar-cane cultivation in the 1800s, and still continue to do so. I believe that sugar cane is a more tender crop than citrus, so if sugarcane can be grown commercially, so can citrus.

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2 hours ago, AnTonY said:

Actually, it might be worth it for the coastal South to start again with commercial citrus production, at least with strong basis around satsumas and kumquats; temperatures haven't been below 20F in most of the region in decades, and it appears that the mid 20th century might have actually been a time of unusual cold (with the warmer, more stable weather being more normal). People already can have garden citrus, and out and about (not super-protected with TLC). Places like Houston and South Louisiana have had sugar-cane cultivation in the 1800s, and still continue to do so. I believe that sugar cane is a more tender crop than citrus, so if sugarcane can be grown commercially, so can citrus.

Garden citrus...Sure. Commercial, it will never happen. New Orleans, South Texas, and other southern states are just way too risky for a commercial operation to take that chance. As was discussed above - all of the southern US is essentially one powerful, polar vortex away from a hard freeze. With the exception of South Florida. Those are just facts. Again, there are no real mountains to protect from a strong dip in the jet stream at just the right time, and bye bye. Hell, Houston hit 20f in some areas two weeks ago. I have a mature Washington Navel in my backyard that took some damage at a 27f we hit in Dec.

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South Texas is already a big producer of grapefruit. I don't think commercial citrus will ever be a big thing along the upper Texas Gulf coast, but I suspect as long term trends move towards this area being a low 9b and more coastal areas warm 9b/low 10a that small farms may be in the future. As Antony mentioned, satsumas are hardier, and there are cultivars that can take temperatures around 10 degrees F. I haven't seen any satsumas in the area that look fazed at all. My parents have a navel orange that's been in the ground 20 years in a completely unprotected spot. It defoliated in the freeze but will survive. We had already harvested a couple hundred oranges.

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I've been monitoring the Mediterranean on Wunderground and it isn't really warm unless you're right by the water. Even then it still gets cold along the French and Italian Riviera. Valencia Spain, Malta, and Sicily seem like some of the best places. I will say Europe doesn't look tropical at all so if tropical is what you want Europe isn't the right place.

Weather aside, there are plenty of other things about Europe that make me jealous. Between the history and natural beauty of the Mediterranean there's just nothing remotely like it in the US.  

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Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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In Europe/Med. do you have any currents similar to the Gulf Stream off East Coast of Florida? This is an extremely deep and vigorous current or river of very warm ocean water year round. Even in January it remains 85F. It averages 4-5 miles off Lake Worth, 10-12 miles off Jupiter and 2 miles off the Northend of PB. An 85F. Current 2 miles off your immediate coast can certainly translate into an interesting microclimate. Notable distinctions  exist in the level of tropical foliage and palms that can be grown nearest to the Stream and it's heat. Just wondering if any comparable current or situation exists in the Med. or nearby waters?

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What you look for is what is looking

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55 minutes ago, RedRabbit said:

I've been monitoring the Mediterranean on Wunderground and it isn't really warm unless you're right by the water. Even then it still gets cold along the French and Italian Riviera. Valencia Spain, Malta, and Sicily seem like some of the best places. I will say Europe doesn't look tropical at all so if tropical is what you want Europe isn't the right place.

Weather aside, there are plenty of other things about Europe that make me jealous. Between the history and natural beauty of the Mediterranean there's just nothing remotely like it in the US.  

Well this winter is not the best example. Most of Europe right now has the coldest winter in the last 50 years.

But average climate wise, Europe is much warmer continent than North America ( In Europe we can grow plants that North America can not on the same latitude ).

Europe is definitely not tropical, but southern Europe is sub-tropical.

Edited by Cikas
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3 hours ago, NorCalKing said:

Garden citrus...Sure. Commercial, it will never happen. New Orleans, South Texas, and other southern states are just way too risky for a commercial operation to take that chance. As was discussed above - all of the southern US is essentially one powerful, polar vortex away from a hard freeze. With the exception of South Florida. Those are just facts. Again, there are no real mountains to protect from a strong dip in the jet stream at just the right time, and bye bye. Hell, Houston hit 20f in some areas two weeks ago. I have a mature Washington Navel in my backyard that took some damage at a 27f we hit in Dec.

Well the official state fruit is grapefruit and Texas is the birthplace of many red varieties like Ruby Red and Rio Red. Plenty of orange production too. But you're mostly right, much of the production is focused on a few counties in the deep south (upper end of zone 9b and 10a). The industry seems to be rebound from really bad freezes (like the 80s). There are a ton of royal palms, huge ficus, and even a few coconuts in that area...going to be carnage when the next big freeze comes. 

 

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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35 minutes ago, Cikas said:

Well this winter is not the best example. Most of Europe right now has the coldest winter in the last 50 years.

But average climate wise, Europe is much warmer continent than North America ( In Europe we can grow plants that North America can not on the same latitude ).

Europe is definitely not tropical, but southern Europe is sub-tropical.

I know it is a lot warmer, but there just isn't much growing there. Apart from oranges in Rome, some Ficus in Malta/Greece, and a few palms I didn't see anything tropical looking in Europe when I visited last. There are more tropical looking plants in Jacksonville, Florida by comparison. I'm guessing that has to do with it being much drier there.

Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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1 hour ago, RedRabbit said:

I know it is a lot warmer, but there just isn't much growing there. Apart from oranges in Rome, some Ficus in Malta/Greece, and a few palms I didn't see anything tropical looking in Europe when I visited last. There are more tropical looking plants in Jacksonville, Florida by comparison. I'm guessing that has to do with it being much drier there.

It depends on which plants you consider tropical looking and in which part of Europe you have been:)

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Edited by Cikas
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There's some commercial mango production in the warmest parts of Andalusia. I think I also remember reading about one (or more) of the Anona spp. being grown commercially too. Some really nice stuff growing on the Costa del Sol...saw some fabulous landscaping in a documentary about Marbella. Plenty of threads on this board showcasing the tropical plants in Málaga too. 

The northern coast of Spain also has some interesting climates. A Coruña (at 43N) is an oceanic zone 10 much like San Francisco with slightly warmer summers. Many oceanic/cloudforest palms would probably grow well there. 

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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8 hours ago, NorCalKing said:

Garden citrus...Sure. Commercial, it will never happen. New Orleans, South Texas, and other southern states are just way too risky for a commercial operation to take that chance. As was discussed above - all of the southern US is essentially one powerful, polar vortex away from a hard freeze. With the exception of South Florida. Those are just facts. Again, there are no real mountains to protect from a strong dip in the jet stream at just the right time, and bye bye. Hell, Houston hit 20f in some areas two weeks ago. I have a mature Washington Navel in my backyard that took some damage at a 27f we hit in Dec.

That's the point, the more moderated micro-climates in the SE US locales can take the burden of citrus production. So while areas of Houston had temps of 20 (or below) during the past freeze, other areas went no lower than the upper 20s; citrus stays in the more moderate areas. Same goes for Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, etc. And with strong basis around satsumas and kumquats, you have a hardy citrus collection that would help minimize damage extents in the event of a powerful freeze (if it ever comes again).

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