Sabal sp. 'Birmingham' in Knoxville, TN

[Bigfish]

Back in 2006, as part of the Southeast Palm Society Hometown Grant, I planted a couple of Sabal sp. 'Birmingham' palms in Knoxville on the UT campus. Thought I'd show the progression of one of them here, and how it is doing today.

Planted on June 29, 2006 as about a five gallon palm:

Here's a 2010 picture of the palm, starting to form a trunk:

Fast-forward another four years to February of 2014, right after the Polar Vortex. This was after a low of -1F and a few other single digit lows, as well as several times where the temperature didn't rise above freezing for several days.

As many of you know, cold damage doesn't show up sometimes for weeks or even months on palms. This was the same palm a few months later in June 2014. Not completely defoliated, but probably about 80% defoliated.

Getting a fat little trunk now:

A friend of mine swung by there the other day to see how it's looking today. All things considered, not too bad considering the brutal winter last year! This was taken after the 7F low earlier this month. I just hope this time it retains all of these leaves and can grow a full crown again. If it defoliates again for the second year in a row, I'm afraid it would probably start going into decline.

Chubby little fella!

[Bigfish]

BTW, here is the other 'Birmingham' in downtown Knoxville. It is (was) the same age as the other one. This is what it looked like last February (2014):

And this is what it looked like in June 2014:

It looked like it was starting to grow a new leaf, but upon closer inspection it also looked like there was quite a bit of crown rot. I have not received any updates on this palm, so I think it's dead.

[Flow]

Frank, thank you very much for these pictures.

Knoxville seems to have very similar average winter lows to my place altough their summers are much warmer.

Still, we almost never see -18C, normally not below -10/12C where I live and thus I guess the Birmingham should be fine worth a shot. What do you think?

If only they were available here..:-(

[Advective]

I'm impressed by its relative speed of growth. I hadn't considered one before because I thought trunking was a 20 year ordeal. Any guesses on the number of fronds it puts out in a growing season?

[Zeeth]

Very cool!

[SailorBold]

It appears to pull itself into the ground and form a subterranean trunk? Was there significant snow with those freezes?

[smithgn]

Awesome pictures, Frank. It's always really cool to see pictures of a palm progressing through the years. I'm only a few years into the palm growing hobby/addiction, but I've snapped a bunch of photos so hopefully I can have some pictures in the future to add like you have done with this sabal- Birmingham.

So both of these were planted at the same time... Any difference in locations as far as overall temperatures go? If they were the same age and relatively the same size as planted, does this support the theory that every palm, even if it's the same species, has different tolerances to adverse conditions? Sometimes people will come across an iron-clad hardy palm of lets say, a L. Chinensis. Someone else will try it thinking they'll get the same results and it will wind up dying during mild-cold as opposed to the other "iron-clad" hardy palm holding through same conditions just fine.

Edited January 19, 2015 by smithgn

[905palms]

Thanks for sharing! I wish I was ballsy enough to try leaving one out around here. The winds are the real enemy when it comes to exposure in these parts.

[Bigfish]

Frank, thank you very much for these pictures.

Knoxville seems to have very similar average winter lows to my place altough their summers are much warmer.

Still, we almost never see -18C, normally not below -10/12C where I live and thus I guess the Birmingham should be fine worth a shot. What do you think?

If only they were available here..:-(

Sabals really need a climate with hot summers to grow their best. In would probably do fine in your winters, but since your summers are mild, it would grow at a snail's pace.

I'm impressed by its relative speed of growth. I hadn't considered one before because I thought trunking was a 20 year ordeal. Any guesses on the number of fronds it puts out in a growing season?

Well all of the leaves that you see on it in those last pics were from last year. I can't tell exactly, but looks like about 5-7 leaves grown last year. With a full crown, a nice hot summer, lots of water and the occasional feeding, this palm can be expected to grow 7-8 leaves per year, maybe even more. They definitely speed up as they get larger. I've read other people complain about how painfully slow they are, but this really hasn't been my experience with this one. When I attended school there from 2006-2010, I fertilized it every year a couple of times per year. I imagine it's been on its own since then.

It appears to pull itself into the ground and form a subterranean trunk? Was there significant snow with those freezes?

Yes, I am pretty sure all Sabals form a subterranean trunk before they start growing an above-ground trunk. Knoxville got a little more snow than we did in Middle TN last winter, but I don't think there was any real significant events. Nothing more than an inch or two at one time probably, but I haven't checked the weather records either.

Awesome pictures, Frank. It's always really cool to see pictures of a palm progressing through the years. I'm only a few years into the palm growing hobby/addiction, but I've snapped a bunch of photos so hopefully I can have some pictures in the future to add like you have done with this sabal- Birmingham.

So both of these were planted at the same time... Any difference in locations as far as overall temperatures go? If they were the same age and relatively the same size as planted, does this support the theory that every palm, even if it's the same species, has different tolerances to adverse conditions? Sometimes people will come across an iron-clad hardy palm of lets say, a L. Chinensis. Someone else will try it thinking they'll get the same results and it will wind up dying during mild-cold as opposed to the other "iron-clad" hardy palm holding through same conditions just fine.

They were the same age and size at planting. The one in downtown that died was a bit slower growing than the one on the Ag Campus, but as you can see it had a little trunk forming also. I am pretty disappointed that it perished because it was in a great spot right in front of the UT Conference Center, so it was highly visible. I'm going to try and see if I can talk them into letting me plant another one in its place. I'm really not sure why it died. It is a more sheltered location than the Ag Campus palm, which is pretty exposed. It is in downtown, surrounded by buildings and lots of concrete. It could be that the downtown location was more windy, since sometimes it can be like a wind tunnel on streets in the downtown portions of a city. Then again, it might have just been a wimp.

[_Keith]

Great tracking. The kind that really adds to the palm body of knowledge.

[sashaeffer]

Great tracking. The kind that really adds to the palm body of knowledge.

Yes, thanks for the great pictures over time. I happen to have one in the ground that I protect this, it's first winter but nice to see it's limitations like shown here. Hope it surprises and comes back.

[Alicehunter2000]

Those are some low temps....so is Birmingham variety supposed to be the hardiest?

[maesy]

How hardy is s.riverside compared to s.birmingham?

Marcel

[Bigfish]

Those are some low temps....so is Birmingham variety supposed to be the hardiest?

Well, it is supposed to be the hardiest trunking Sabal. Sabal Louisiana is on par with it, but takes much longer to form a trunk and doesn't grow as tall as S. Birmingham.

How hardy is s.riverside compared to s.birmingham?

Marcel

I have never grown S. Riverside, but I've heard of it getting cold damage at much higher temps than Birmingham. People that have grown Riverside in the SE report damage in the high single digits to low teens (F). Birmingham seems good to the very low single digits (F) before getting cold damage.

[sashaeffer]

Those are some low temps....so is Birmingham variety supposed to be the hardiest?

Well, it is supposed to be the hardiest trunking Sabal. Sabal Louisiana is on par with it, but takes much longer to form a trunk and doesn't grow as tall as S. Birmingham.

How hardy is s.riverside compared to s.birmingham?

Marcel

I have never grown S. Riverside, but I've heard of it getting cold damage at much higher temps than Birmingham. People that have grown Riverside in the SE report damage in the high single digits to low teens (F). Birmingham seems good to the very low single digits (F) before getting cold damage.

I have quite a variety of Sabals and the Birminham is known as the most cold hardy "trunking" sabal. Riverside is one of the least cold hardy...cold hardy but not single diget cold hardy.

[Flow]

What about x brazoriensis? I was once told it was equally hardy as Birmingham but larger.

[905palms]

What about x brazoriensis? I was once told it was equally hardy as Birmingham but larger.

I hope so, I've germinated a dozen of these last month...

[Bigfish]

What about x brazoriensis? I was once told it was equally hardy as Birmingham but larger.

I don't think it's any larger, from photos I've seen. I think Birmingham is hardier by a little bit than S. x brazoriensis. I had a S. x brazoriensis die on me in Knoxville from a 10F low though, so they are quite variable as far as hardiness goes. Haven't tried one since, but probably should soon. They have a nice form.

[Flow]

I found the thread on Toby Spanner's board where he says that Birmingham looks like a too short version of S. palmetto whereas S. x brazoriensis is a massive plant (also larger than palmetto). Anyways, these two are the only trunking candidates for me.

I have had seeds from penny's palms. Birmingham germinated like weeds but x brazoriesis was much harder.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Flow

[Bigfish]

I found the thread on Toby Spanner's board where he says that Birmingham looks like a too short version of S. palmetto whereas S. x brazoriensis is a massive plant (also larger than palmetto). Anyways, these two are the only trunking candidates for me.

I have had seeds from penny's palms. Birmingham germinated like weeds but x brazoriesis was much harder.

Where is Toby's board? I guess S. x. brazoriensis might be a little bit bigger as far as width and leaf size, but certainly not eventual height. They are both pretty slow as far as growing a trunk goes.

[905palms]

I found the thread on Toby Spanner's board where he says that Birmingham looks like a too short version of S. palmetto whereas S. x brazoriensis is a massive plant (also larger than palmetto). Anyways, these two are the only trunking candidates for me.

I have had seeds from penny's palms. Birmingham germinated like weeds but x brazoriesis was much harder.

Hey Flow, I got Brazoria seeds last year from Penny's and waited until this year to try. They were great, and all germinated with a good heat source, even after 1 full year. They have great seeds. I was also lucky to have a couple germinate in a planting outside and the seedlings have survived (so far) to -11C, with good mulch on them. They are super slow to grow however.

[Zeeth]

I found the thread on Toby Spanner's board where he says that Birmingham looks like a too short version of S. palmetto whereas S. x brazoriensis is a massive plant (also larger than palmetto). Anyways, these two are the only trunking candidates for me.

I have had seeds from penny's palms. Birmingham germinated like weeds but x brazoriesis was much harder.

I've tried finding pics of a S. birmingham and all I see is ones similar to those in this thread. Do you have any examples of pictures of trunking individuals?

[Scot from SC]

Check out Gary Hollar's webpage. He has been raising cold hardy palms in North Carolina for decades. He has a whole page of Birmingham pictures. Here is a link to the Birmingham page:

http://www.garysnursery.com/SabalBirmingham.html

[Zeeth]

Check out Gary Hollar's webpage. He has been raising cold hardy palms in North Carolina for decades. He has a whole page of Birmingham pictures. Here is a link to the Birmingham page:

http://www.garysnursery.com/SabalBirmingham.html

Thanks for the link, it includes a picture of one with a decent amount of trunk. Pretty cool that this can be grown in such cold areas!

[Scot from SC]

Hey Keith,

It is an incredible palm. I have several Birminghams and Brazorias, along with the standard palmetto, etc. I hope mine start trunking soon. They are really neat palms. Gary raises other palms as well. If you scroll to the bottom of his page he has links. Someone mentioned Penny's Palms as well. Mr. Penny is about 45 minutes away from me here in South Carolina. Here is a link to his page:

http://pennyspalms.com/index.html

Edited January 23, 2015 by Scot from SC

[Flow]

I found the thread on Toby Spanner's board where he says that Birmingham looks like a too short version of S. palmetto whereas S. x brazoriensis is a massive plant (also larger than palmetto). Anyways, these two are the only trunking candidates for me.

I have had seeds from penny's palms. Birmingham germinated like weeds but x brazoriesis was much harder.

Where is Toby's board? I guess S. x. brazoriensis might be a little bit bigger as far as width and leaf size, but certainly not eventual height. They are both pretty slow as far as growing a trunk goes.

Here you go Frank, this is the thread about x brazoriensis: http://palmenforum.de/viewtopic.php?id=2517&order=ASC&p=2 . It's German speaking though. You can, however, post in English and still get an answer. Most people understand.

I found the thread on Toby Spanner's board where he says that Birmingham looks like a too short version of S. palmetto whereas S. x brazoriensis is a massive plant (also larger than palmetto). Anyways, these two are the only trunking candidates for me.

I have had seeds from penny's palms. Birmingham germinated like weeds but x brazoriesis was much harder.

Hey Flow, I got Brazoria seeds last year from Penny's and waited until this year to try. They were great, and all germinated with a good heat source, even after 1 full year. They have great seeds. I was also lucky to have a couple germinate in a planting outside and the seedlings have survived (so far) to -11C, with good mulch on them. They are super slow to grow however.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I got bad seeds. That happened only once and I got a full refund. I'm very pleased with them. It's just that literally all Birmingham germinated and very few of the x brazoriensis did, even with extra heat. Bad luck, I guess.

cheers

Flo

[Zeeth]

Here's the post with a rough translation of the post so others can read it.

Palme Per Paket schrieb:

Sabal x brazoriensis wurde 2011 von D.H.Goldman, Lockett & Read in Phytotaxa 27: 20 beschrieben. Sabal x texensis ist davon ein Synonym, allerdings kein gültig beschriebener, nur ein provisorischer Name von Lockett. Sabal texana ist ein Synonym für S. mexicana und Sabal sp. "Birmingham" ist vermutlich eine Hybride, ganz genau weis das aber niemand. Noch Fragen?

Grüsse, TOBIAS

Ja, könnte die Birmingham auch einfach eine x brazoriensis sein? Da wurde ja auch schon minor und palmetto als Eltern vermutet. Hat die je jemand verglichen?

Lg Flo

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Ganz sicher nicht. Sabal "Birmingham" sieht aus wie eine etwas zu kurz gekommene S. palmetto. Die ursprüngliche Pflanze existiert übrigens nicht mehr, nur angebliche Nachkommen davon.
S. x brazoriensis ist dagegen eine gewaltige Pflanze, deutlich grösser als S. palmetto und mit eher flachen Blättern mit sehr grosser Lamina, die an S. minor erinnern, nur wesentlich grösser.

Grüsse, TOBIAS

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Translated:

Palme Per Paket schrieb:

Sabal x brazoriensis was written about in 2011 by D.H.Goldman, Lockett & Read in Phytotaxa 27: 20. Sabal x texensis is a synonym thereof, however it's not an official name, but a provisional one by Lockett. Sabal texana is a synonym for S. mexicana and Sabal sp. "Birmingham" is presumably a Hybrid, but no one knows for sure. Any more questions?

Greetings, TOBIAS

Yes, could the Birmingham also simply be a x brazoriensis? It's also supposed to have minor and palmetto as parents. Has anyone compared them?

Lg Flo

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Definitely not. Sabal "Birmingham" looks like a slow growing S. palmetto. The original plant no longer exists, only alleged descendants thereof.
S. x brazoriensis is, however, an enormous plant, distinctly larger than S. palmetto and with rather flat leaves with very large lamina that resembles S. minor, only much larger.

Greetings, TOBIAS

[Flow]

Thanks Keith

[Bigfish]

Hmm...well, I don't really see how S. x brazoriensis can be called larger than S. palmetto. Palmetto grows a much taller trunk and leaves can get pretty large also. S. brazoriensis is distinctly different in many aspects, but grows a much shorter, fat trunk.

There are not a whole lot of large S. Birminghams to photograph because there aren't a lot of second generation plants left. There were quite a few volunteer plants that came up in the neighborhood where the original plant was, but a lot of them have been destroyed because it was in a neighborhood in Birmingham, Alabama where one or two houses were destroyed by fire I believe. It wasn't exactly a nice neighborhood either, and from what I've heard, homeowners didn't like people coming to look at the palms, ask questions, etc. I'm not sure if any of those palms are left. One got transplanted to Birmingham Botanical Gardens. Gary Hollar got some of the original second generation plants, and there are a few also planted in Raleigh, NC at a couple of the parks there. A friend of mine in Alabama has an old one as well. Beyond that, what you mostly see in pictures is third generation palms. Some of them are producing seed now as well. I got mine from Gary.

[Bigfish]

Well, here is the last update on this palm:  It's dead.  It tried pushing out some green leaves early in the year, but the next time someone went to see it, this is what they saw.  I only hope that it was dead when they chainsawed it.  It did have 9 good years here.  R.I.P.!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brad Mondel]

It's funny this thread popped up because I'm in Knoxville right now. Poor thing couldn't make it, perhaps if it was on a south wall.

[Bigfish]

It was surrounded by concrete sidewalks and the road is close, but a wall would have been better.  The Needle Palm near it is close to the wall...ah, hindsight.  This and the other Birmingham downtown that died in the previous winter both got bud rot.  If I ever plant another in my own yard, it will get the meristem wrapped in the winter.

[cm05]

I was always under the impression that Sabal minors were immune to bud rot. Sad to see it went out like that.

I never knew Birminghams trunked so quickly though, now I want one lol.

[Bigfish]

2 hours ago, cm05 said:

I was always under the impression that Sabal minors were immune to bud rot. Sad to see it went out like that.

I never knew Birminghams trunked so quickly though, now I want one lol.

I don't think that any palm is immune to bud rot.  If it gets cold enough and stays wet enough so that water can reach the bud and freeze, it's just bad news.  

 

Sabal sp. 'Birmingham' isn't S. minor though, BTW.  Until someone does a DNA analysis on it, however, it's anyone's guess.  This palm was relatively fast-growing for a 'Birmingham'.  It had all-day sun, lots of radiant heat from the concrete and asphalt nearby, and was irrigated.  You better believe those factors helped it!

[Adam-LSA25]

 It is good to know Sabal Birmingham will grow in Knoxville; I live here off of Cedar Bluff,  and I just acquired some seeds. I’ve  also planted a Jubaea, Capitata, and a mule.  I’m On the edge of my seat waiting to see how it all turns out.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

@Adam-LSA25 All three of those are borderline here when they are small and the mule is borderline even when it is large so I hate to be the bearer of bad news but they will not make it in a full zone colder than I am.

[Fusca]

1 hour ago, Adam-LSA25 said:

 It is good to know Sabal Birmingham will grow in Knoxville; I live here off of Cedar Bluff,  and I just acquired some seeds. I’ve  also planted a Jubaea, Capitata, and a mule.  I’m On the edge of my seat waiting to see how it all turns out.

Hey Adam,

Welcome to PalmTalk!  Go Vols!  Joe's right about the Jubaea, Butia and the mule - they won't survive long term without MAJOR protection every winter.  I'm growing Butias and Mules here in San Antonio.

I grew up in Knoxville, although didn't live on the west side with all the traffic.  The first and only palm I ever grew in Knoxville was a Sabal minor that I had dug from a neighbor's swamp property.  It didn't take the transplant well and died a slow death.    That was back in the middle 90's - but it didn't keep me from growing palms!  I really got interested after moving to Texas back in 2000 and have grown them ever since.  I never knew about the Sabals at UT from this thread until now.  Did you ever hear about the record cold temp in Knoxville?  We hit -24º F (-31º C) one night in 1985!  I remember it because I was still at UT and I could see the top of the Park Bank bldg downtown (with time and temp) from my apartment window.  That day Knoxville was the coldest spot anywhere in the US!  Of course I wasn't gardening back then, but I remember hearing about a TON of ornamental stuff that got toasted.  It's been a tough winter for a lot of us, but nothing like that winter!

Jon