A really unknown Dypsis in Andasibe ...

[olivier971]

As i said in a previous post, Jean-Pierre and i found a very special species of Dypsis during our last trip in Andasibe – Madagascar. First, we saw an adult in Maromizaha reserve, not very beautiful, perhaps it was ill. But we were immediately surprised by the specific position of the leaflets all around the rachis, and by its very long petiole. Crownshaft and new leaf were totally white.

After some discussion with different people inside the reserve, a young guy accepted to bring us to go and see another one. After a quite long trecking inside forest a part of paths, we finally discovered a young one, very colorful and with exactly the same leaves and specific position of leaflets.

According to our new young guide, this palm is very rare because usually eaten by local population. It’s the same with Dypsis pilulifera.

At the end of our trip, we saw another young specimen in Mitsinjo reserve, with very different colours, this time with a new petiole white, and with a lot of scales, but with exactly the same position of leaflets.

So the problem is that, accordind to us, the only byg Dypsis known in this area is Dypsis pilulifera, and those specimens are very different with D pilulifera because of their leaflets positions. Those specimens seem to be closed to D oropedionis, D tokoravina or D bejofo, but those species are not known in this area. So we don’t know at all what this could be ...

So I would be very interested by your ideas ….

Here are the photos :

- In Maromizaha reserve :

The first adult one :

[olivier971]

The second one, a young specimen :

[olivier971]

[olivier971]

In Mitsinjo reserve :

The third one, another young specimen, but with very different colours

[LJG]

Wow Olivier, I think you just found a rare and seldom seen Dypsis that some growers here in SoCal have that we had no idea where it came from or what it was. It came to SoCal via Alfred as "Ovobontsira" and Mardy Darian and Ron Lawyer are the only people I know that grew it. Ron was over here last month and in talking to him our best guess was maybe a locality of Dypsis oropedionis as the two have some similarities (but are also difference in appearance). One of the unique characteristics of this plant is the smooth, dark green petioles it has. It is the only larger Dypsis that I have seen with smooth, green petioles.

Will the guide you recommended remember where this Palm is? I will be there in October. I would love to see it in habitat.

[LJG]

Sorry, forgot the photos. What do you think? Same plant? My two had the shade protection removed this spring and suffered a little but really seem to be able ton handle sun at a young age as the newest leaves don't get burned.

[Geoff]

All photos of Dypsis ovobontsira I have seen show a non-plumose leaf… Here are a few shots of Bill Austin's plant

[richnorm]

Why would you doubt that your pictured palm is oropedionis Len? Agree Olivier's have similarities to that species which has been shown to be very variable but really a question for a botanist up close.

[Jimbean]

That's cool!

[Gtlevine]

(

Edited December 2, 2014 by Gtlevine

[comic097]

Great lookers

[Kennybenjamin]

Great looking palms alright!! Hopefully this one of mine is the same? I notice a couple of pics above with a bit a colour to the new leaf... Mine also displays this colour. I know of 1 other much larger specimen in the ground here in Brisbane that also shows a similar leaf structure but I have not noticed if it's new leaf has colour or not?

Daryl might have a pic of the larger inground specimen or else I can get a few in another day or 2

[LJG]

Why would you doubt that your pictured palm is oropedionis Len? Agree Olivier's have similarities to that species which has been shown to be very variable but really a question for a botanist up close.

As I stated I think the plant might be some type of Oropedionis (just a hunch), but there is indeed doubt for a few reasons:

1) Oropedionis doesn't come from any where near where Ovobontsira comes from. So unless Alfred threw some rudimentary name on the seed, one would expect the seed to have come from the northeast.

2) POM describes Oropedionis as having a petiole "densely scaly". This palm is smooth green. No indument/scaling anywhere. All the plants from that seed source are like this.

3) It was faster and easier to grow then what I have seen going around as Oropedionis (that I also have in my garden).

4) I have not seen the variability you have in Oropedionis. They all looked the same from Hawaii to Florida from what I saw. Once they get bigger they start developing the scaling on the petiole POM talks about (seen in pic below) and also the new spear is reddish-orange at the base but as you can see in the unknown plant, it is smooth green-yellow.

Like you said, without a botanist and flowering plant I doubt we will ever know. From reading Oliviers post it seems we won't be seeing this palm for some time as they cut down most the adults it looks like.

One other interesting thing is that Drainsfeld said Oropedionis is closest allied to Dypsis pilulifera. So maybe this is just some form of Pilulifera?

[Kennybenjamin]

In Mitsinjo reserve :

The third one, another young specimen, but with very different colours

Excuse my ignorance but is there anyway that this specimen could be similar to manangerensis?? It appears to have a similar leaf structure with colour to the new leaf and pattern on the petiole?? It certainly looks very different to the pics in posts 2 and 3

[Josh-O]

Kenny, My D. manangerensis is much smaller than the picture of course but the leaf structure and leaflets look identical. Mine just flushed a new leaf with the exact some color. I'll post pictures when it stops raining. My guess is the top few pictures looks like Dypsis oropedionis. I also have a small one and it looks very similar.

you know how it goes when we think we have figured it out. Chances are were probably wrong.

Great pictures Oliver!!!

[humangenomaproject]

If Len is going to Madagascar in October then I may buy a ticket to tag along (on my tricycle). Cool thread guys!!!

[BS Man about Palms]

I am lucky to have one recovering at Lens and one thing I noticed about these palms from seedling stage versus oreopedonis is the oreo. start with leaves in a flat plane and then eventually go plumose. The ones Len and Ron and I have showed plumose from little tiny leaves..

Great finds again Oliver! Thanks for sharing... after going to Nong Nooch, I can't help but wonder if they are a new species or hybrids.

[richnorm]

Why would you doubt that your pictured palm is oropedionis Len? Agree Olivier's have similarities to that species which has been shown to be very variable but really a question for a botanist up close.

As I stated I think the plant might be some type of Oropedionis (just a hunch), but there is indeed doubt for a few reasons:

1) Oropedionis doesn't come from any where near where Ovobontsira comes from. So unless Alfred threw some rudimentary name on the seed, one would expect the seed to have come from the northeast.

2) POM describes Oropedionis as having a petiole "densely scaly". This palm is smooth green. No indument/scaling anywhere. All the plants from that seed source are like this.

3) It was faster and easier to grow then what I have seen going around as Oropedionis (that I also have in my garden).

4) I have not seen the variability you have in Oropedionis. They all looked the same from Hawaii to Florida from what I saw. Once they get bigger they start developing the scaling on the petiole POM talks about (seen in pic below) and also the new spear is reddish-orange at the base but as you can see in the unknown plant, it is smooth green-yellow.

Like you said, without a botanist and flowering plant I doubt we will ever know. From reading Oliviers post it seems we won't be seeing this palm for some time as they cut down most the adults it looks like.

One other interesting thing is that Drainsfeld said Oropedionis is closest allied to Dypsis pilulifera. So maybe this is just some form of Pilulifera?

Thanks Len, I ask because what I am growing as oropedionis looks very much like your plant albeit more colourful. They came in under another name years ago. Have been assuming they were oropedionis but maybe they are not! Exceedingly slow until planted but moving along nicely now.

[Hilo Jason]

The pictures posted make me think of a couple palms that Greg Haman has in his garden and also Dennis in point loma has something that sure looks like what's above. No idea what it actually is though. I'm out of the country so I can't post pics of those that I have but I'm sure someone else can.

[olivier971]

thanks a lot for all your comments and proposals ..

of course i thought first those palms could be Dypsis oropedionis, but, as some of you said before, it seems that there are some differences.

Also, D oropedionis is not known at all in this area and in this type of habitat: http://maps.iucnredlist.org/map.html?id=38552

And also, i think D oropedionis is not known to be edible.

I don't think hose palms are D pilulifera because we saw both nearby, ans as you notice, the disposal of leaflets are very different.

So that's why i don't know what this could be, perahps the same some of you have in culture as you show us with photos, but not sure at all ...

[BS Man about Palms]

I also meant to add that the first one made me think of Dypsis sp. white.... now known as Dypsis luecomalla I think?

[Geoff]

leaves still wrong for D leucomalla

[BS Man about Palms]

Oops, I saw the flat leaves and realize now that was a palm behind it.

[LJG]

leaves still wrong for D leucomalla

Dypsis leucomala now.jpg

Looks like a Saint Lucei.

[Dypsisdean]

leaves still wrong for D leucomalla

Dypsis leucomala now.jpg

Looks like a Saint Lucei.

I don't think Geoff will mind if I correct him. Yes, that was a St. Lucei. And to be triple sure I asked Jeff M. who sent me a pic of the real D. luecomalla. Interestingly enough, I do see some similarities of the two in the fronds, that I didn't notice before. But the crownshaftal region is much different.

[richnorm]

Oops, I saw the flat leaves and realize now that was a palm behind it.

So presumably given what Olivier said it's a pilulifera with regular leaves in habitat!!!

[Pedro 65]

Great habitat pics as usual Oliver

Glad to see we have a Dypsis sp in the garden here that looks just like your post 2 and ours is stretched from lots of shade as well.

re Post 1 , I thought the same as BS as well, a very stretched Leucomala ?

Pete

[olivier971]

Will the guide you recommended remember where this Palm is? I will be there in October. I would love to see it in habitat.

Yes, Len, the guide i recommended to you knows very well how to go in those reserves and can find and book for you local guides to go and see all those palms in forest