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Cocos nucifera on Madeira Island


Cluster
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So I took some last pictures yesterday of the coconuts while in Funchal (I am already back in Lisbon). I checked the two coconuts from the Garden of Almirante de Reis as well (you can check them as they were last December in post 166).

Both of them look dry, the first one still looks sick, while I am no expert or anything, maybe it is due to being dry or lacks nutrients, what I can say is that the next coconut has fronds that double or even triple the size of this one, even though it still looks dry. I also verified many archontophoenix cunninghamianas that looked very dry, still I would say cocos seem to demand the most water by far.

I hope this fellow is well fed in the future

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Zoomed in

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The 2nd coconut, I am not sure if it is because it is not very tall yet, but the fronds of this coconut look very big, the picture does not show it well, the base of its trunk is also almost impossible to hug, if it was watered properly and not trimmed to oblivion this specimen would be one of the best looking coconuts on the island in my opinion:

2h3ssa9.jpg

9uyg53.jpg

Edited by Cluster
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In this last picture I took the final panoramic shot of the marina coconuts (just for memories/record till August!) and also noticed that the last coconut picture from post 251 has some young coconuts! Since this is the tallest coconut tree in the marina I am hoping they will just give up and let it have the coconuts (wishful thinking i know...).

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The tall has some coconuts there (left side)

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So at the moment I am checking the fruits of two coconuts, this one I show here and the next one near the dwarf which I mentioned on post 251 picture 3. A lot of time will pass till August, if I am lucky I may find some people to take pictures from time to time or at least describe me how they are doing:)

Edited by Cluster
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Thank you, much to learn and to show still! At some point if possible I even want to grow a coconut at my place. Might not be as warm as in the best places on the island, but at least I could try to get nice soil and water for it knowing it will not be trimmed to oblivion. I learn about many types of coconuts, I still do not know if Maypan or Samoan(Fiji) types are self pollinators!

Meanwhile I try to gather as much information and will see if it is possible to stop this palm butchering on our island:)

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Reading more and more about the different Coconut varieties! I have been trying to understand the difference between Pacific/Panama tall and Atlantic/Jamaican tall. From what I gathered here in palmtalk the Atlantic ones have spherical crowns while the Pacific talls have umbrella crowns. Since we see a lot of trimmed Coconuts in Madeira it is hard to know if the umbrella shape is due to trimming or most of them are in fact Pacific tall varieties? While comparing to the Canaries coconuts it also seems to me they do not have the spherical crown. I do like the Jamaican tall spherical crown more than the Pacific tall crown, but I think what we have on both islands is the later. As for the dwarf cultivar, they seem to also have spherical crowns (at the least the ones in Fairchild tropical garden, Florida). One thing I read as well is that temperature/water and good nutrition may have some impact on the spherical crown? What do you think?

Edited by Cluster
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All of these palms are in Florida. Most of them are close to my house.

Here's a Jamaican tall.

post-3598-0-76953700-1424268520_thumb.jp

Here is a pair of them.

post-3598-0-08771200-1424268749_thumb.jp

These are Panama talls.

post-3598-0-40510800-1424268557_thumb.jp

Another shot

post-3598-0-63973900-1424269052_thumb.jp

This is a Malayan Dwarf.

post-3598-0-39864500-1424268641_thumb.jp

This is a Maypan

post-3598-0-84215600-1424268682_thumb.jp

It's difficult to say what variety the coconuts on Maderia are as they are stunted. The Newport beach coconut is a Hawaiian tall but it grows slowly and small because of the climate. I would think that the ones on Maderia and the Canary islands would be West African talls due to the proximity to Africa, but it's hard to be sure. Jamaican talls are very closely related to the West African tall.

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

Palmetto.gif

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Fruit is also an excellent way to tell the variety. Jamaican talls have long, triangular and pointy coconuts. With the husk removed, the inner nut is the size and shape of a goose egg. Panama talls are more circular in shape and the coconut inside is nearly perfectly spherical, but also larger than a Jamaican tall, with about twice the volume usually. Malayan dwarves are also circular in shape, but smaller than the Panama tall. Maypans are an intermediate size between Panama tall and Malayan, but the trees produce more nuts on average than either parent.

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

Palmetto.gif

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Pargomad, exactly they all seem to have this umbrella.

Keith, thank you for the input. Looking at your pictures it is even harder to distinguish the Jamaican from the Panama, since one of the Panama does have a nice sphere! The bole does look slightly different though and the color of the Panama seems more dark green opposed to the more olive green of the Jamaican (maybe it is due to the picture as the sky looks over saturated )?

Regarding the Jamaican I just read your awesome old thread (Gizella Kopsick Palm Arboretum http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/21028-gizella-kopsick-palm-arboretum/) where you show us how the coconuts from the 2nd picture you posted in this thread evolved from 1993 till nowadays. What is cool about it is that it shows us that those Jamaican did not use to have spherical crowns and after some years they, somehow, developed the ability to retain more and longer fronds giving it the spherical look. The coconuts in the Marina are way younger, maybe they are indeed Jamaican/African. What I know for sure is that the one I show from Regency Hotel is from Florida as I spoke with the people that brought it many years ago. Seeing as Florida has both talls it does not help :). As for non stunted coconuts did you see the two in the private garden, they do not lack water there but they seem rather young.

Regarding the Malayan type, I was told they can also curve a bit and the one in the Marina does look that way. A question, though, can Malayan get the graceful spherical look (the people I asked in Palmtalk say they do but it is not as frequent/easy as a Jamaican) often?

A final question regarding the Fiji Dwarf variety, I could not find many pictures of grown up Fiji coconuts and I see people claiming they have bigger and wider fronds than Malayan while others claim they have small (but wide) fronds, some say they do not have a spherical crown but this picture says otherwise:):53.2.GIF

It is all confusing some people also say they can self pollinate others say they do not self pollinate like the other dwarfs:)

Thank you.

Ps:Temperatures in Madeira have been more normal during the last week, reaching more than 23 C (73.4 ) in Funchal (lido) and similar temperatures in Ponta do Sol.

Edited by Cluster
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The differences in Jamaican vs Panama tall is easiest to tell from the fruit. Here are some articles on the different varieties with pictures that may help you out. Note the difference in fruit size and shape.

Panama tall:

http://www.cogentnetwork.org/images/publications/catalog/countries/Panama_175-177.pdf

West African tall (similar to Jamaican tall, especially in fruit shape):

http://www.cogentnetwork.org/images/publications/catalog/countries/Cote_dIvoire_39-43.pdf

Fiji dwarf:

http://www.cogentnetwork.org/images/publications/catalog/countries/Fiji_49-53.pdf

The Fiji dwarf is very easy to tell from other varieties. The leaves are much shorter than many other varieties, but they contain more leaflets and the leaflets are wider.

The coconuts that were shipped from Florida are probably Malayans or Maypans. Panama talls are very rare in Florida and mostly grown only by palm people and Jamaican talls were all but wiped out in South Florida except for a few places. The coconuts grown at the big nurseries are pretty much all either Malayans or Maypans.

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

Palmetto.gif

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Hello again and thank you for the info. The coconut tree in the Regency Palace probably went there 12/14 years ago ore maybe even more. In any case maybe the talls both Archipelagos have are tall hybrids like the Maypan. In the picture Pargomad posted before the nut seems way rounder than the Jamaican talls:

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I also found another coconut picture around:

PuertoDeMoganGC.jpg

This last one I am not s sure but they still look way rounder:)

In any case I have been reading those links Keith posted and all of the coconuts are spherical there, Malayan and Fiji included! Maybe coconuts need to get more mature and nice climate/nutrition to get that crown as the pictures from Keith's 2009 thread suggest.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Yes the temperatures have been quiet high the last couple of days, this being the 3rd coldest month (just slightly warmer than the other 2) is quiet warm. It is still not raining however and that is quiet dramatic not just for palms that might not have assistance but also to defend against forest fires.

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I am just back from 2 months in Indonesia. There Cocos nucifera grows to perfection. I do not think you can get them as good in the cooler climates of the Canary Islands or Madeira. They will grow but not as good as in the constant hot humid tropics.

Alexander

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I found an old picture of the seafront of Funchal when there were lots of coconut trees before they were removed in 2009. Look at their fronds ! Those ones were some beautiful and robust exemplars.

149704790_73b2469507_o.jpg

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Alexander, you are most likely right, however they can look better than what they look in many of my pictures with proper water, soil conditions and not over pruning them like they are doing. For example the coconuts in the marina barely have any soil around and they look a bit dry. In the southwest they are barely getting any water (even though it is warmer there than in Funchal ). It has been very dry the last couple of months and this week a new cold front began, but at least it might finally rain (already did a bit yesterday)!

Pargomad, those pictures make me happy and sad! Happy because maybe one day we can dream in having more of those coconuts, sad because they were taken away. Can't wait to start out my cocos report again when I am back there:)

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I hope with the new front of the capital (the part still unbuilt) they will plant some cocos, and also in the new hotels (like the one cristiano ronaldo is building in the praia formosa, it would be the best place for growing cocos on the beach).

Maybe someday they'll start selling Coconut trees in Garden centers on the island, because for now I'm sure there's no cocos buyable directly on Madeira.

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2392667265_2343b6d222_o.jpg

Here we have the proof that they actually kill the coconut trees on the island, surely due to bad cares and for aesthetic reasons... We can see that its "head" has been cut...

Edited by Pargomad
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Indeed it looks like it:(. What is worth also mentioning is how much the middle and left coconuts have grown in these years, for comparison look at post 278.

Quinta das cruzes palm does indeed resemble a coconut tree.

Edited by Cluster
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Hey Kevin,

That is indeed a juvenile coconut palm at Quint das cruzes. Maybe a Green Malayan Dwarf or maybe a tall, hard to tell at that age and from the distance the photo was taken at.

John

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that is a nice plumeria tree. did you take this photo recently. it still has its leaves must be warm there now

I've just found what I think to be a baby cocos in the garden of the Quinta das cruzes in Funchal ! Am I right ? 13972884890_1085cd57ca_b.jpg

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Hello again and thank you for the info. The coconut tree in the Regency Palace probably went there 12/14 years ago ore maybe even more. In any case maybe the talls both Archipelagos have are tall hybrids like the Maypan. In the picture Pargomad posted before the nut seems way rounder than the Jamaican talls:

31783539.jpg

I also found another coconut picture around:

PuertoDeMoganGC.jpg

This last one I am not s sure but they still look way rounder:)

In any case I have been reading those links Keith posted and all of the coconuts are spherical there, Malayan and Fiji included! Maybe coconuts need to get more mature and nice climate/nutrition to get that crown as the pictures from Keith's 2009 thread suggest.

Those pictures are from the Canary Islands, right? Mate I've never seen the 1st one, I was writing a post of Tazacorte now to reply here and that picture is new for me. WOW they also got mature cocos flowering. :o

Big thanks!! :greenthumb:

Edited by pRoeZa*

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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We already have a european Hawaii in Europe : the Canary islands. Here go some examples:

I wish Madeira was like this... The Canary islands are definitely the most beautiful islands in Europe.

hehe true my friend! :greenthumb:

But those ones are very famous coconuts in the Canary islands, I will show you some that aren't very famous and are in uncommon places! Those ones are located in La Palma island:

playa-y-puerto-de-tazacorte.jpg

2pq71wn.jpg

2lwwrcp.jpg

Gran Canaria Island: (well, here and specially in this zone are very common, but those ones don't appear if you google coconuts in Canaries :) )

19bdqu.jpg

@Cluster, I can say that none European island can be compared to Hawaii. Hawaii has a very different climate. Also, I would say that the most approximate climate in Europe (for me Madeira, Azores and Canaries are Europe, I don't count French Polinesia for example, that's Europe "de jure" hehe) is the climate from La Palma island.

The official climate chart of Tazacorte town is: (already average temps)

19 19 19,5 20 21 22,5 24 25 24,5 23 21,5 20

Making a overall 21.6ºC average. Well, being 19ºC the average in January and February makes me think that the average temps for the 2 coldest months are 21/17 but can be 20/18 also or 22/16... idk.

The winters are sooo mild/confortable, even more than in Gran Canaria. The funny thing is that this is the northern island of Gran Canaria!. Personally I would say that this is the most approximative climate to Hawaii but obviously none place in Europe can compare to Hawaii's climate. At least to the south coast of Hawaii. Writing all this I'm getting impressed because I searched now for the climate in La Palma island and I can see that only a few places in Gran Canaria and Tenerife have a better climate. (talking for Canary Islands) But I say again that none European climate is comparable to the climate of the south coast of Hawaii.

I am very impressed also, that in the driest and northernmost canarian island, the cocos grow quite well. They grow on the natural soil (all sand) and they get only the water from the sky because no irrigation pipes are seemed in the surroundings (and in their location no irrigation can be done for them), which means less than 100mm per year. About 80mm for be more exactly.

Those ones are located in La Graciosa Island (which is the smallest island and the is the last one with 100% traditional costums, having less than 1.000 habitants in the entire island and the economy being mainly fishing, something that was the motor of the canarian economy some centuries ago!)

9r3lzp.jpg

Look at the first ones. Those are on the seafront, and the last ones are from a private garden. The other ones are between houses which appear to protect them a bit from the wind; those ones on the seafront present wind damage, right ? Look at the phoenixes in exposed areas, they also have the same light damage in the leaves. It's for the wind or it's a insect?? I can say too that this island has got a looot of wind almost all the year.

Edited by pRoeZa*

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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2392667265_2343b6d222_o.jpg

Here we have the proof that they actually kill the coconut trees on the island, surely due to bad cares and for aesthetic reasons... We can see that its "head" has been cut...

But why they cutted the "head" of that coconut ? The coconut was ill or something? :crying::crying::crying: I know how you feel... here (where I live, not Canary Islands) we have a proper climate for roystonea regia and when I've seen that 1 of the only few ones from here was cutted down... I would slap the responsible for that... :rant: it's very sad to see something like this. :crying:

Edited by pRoeZa*

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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It was a lot of time since I don't writted nothing in this post and I cannot say nothing more than CONGRATULATIONS, CLUSTER!!!

Very good thread and very good photo-reportage. You take it very seriously and put high quality photos and you explain everything from every place. :greenthumb: Hope to see more photos from you!!! :winkie:

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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Proeza, that is why I love the canarian islands ! Despite having the quite same climate with Madeira, they know how to handle with ornamental trees and palmtrees ! When I have nothing to do I love spending my time wandering on street view on the canary islands because it's so beautiful to me (I hate Madeira on street view because the pictures were taken in Winter in 2009, meanwhile the pics of the canarian islands are recent and were taken in summer).

The difference with the portuguese and the spaniards about gardening is that the spaniards love to plant subtropical and tropical trees (with perennial leaves) meanwhile in Portugal they do not care about that, they'd rather plant shadow trees, tropical or temperate... We can see this on Madeira where You have avenues with a lot of trees like jacarandas, tipuanas tipu, london plane trees, etc. On the canarian islands they plant lots of roystoneas, delonix regia, cocos and a lot of palms...

I just hope Madeira, one day, will look like the canarian islands and will stop planting temperate trees.

Edited by Pargomad
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2392667265_2343b6d222_o.jpg

Here we have the proof that they actually kill the coconut trees on the island, surely due to bad cares and for aesthetic reasons... We can see that its "head" has been cut...

But why they cutted the "head" of that coconut ? The coconut was ill or something? :crying::crying::crying: I know how you feel... here (where I live, not Canary Islands) we have a proper climate for roystonea regia and when I've seen that 1 of the only few ones from here was cutted down... I would slap the responsible for that... :rant: it's very sad to see something like this. :crying:

Im not so sure they cut the head of that coconut. doesn't look like a chainsaw cut to me. plus if they were gonna cut it down they would cut it at the base. looks more like crown rot.

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I know that from 2000 to 2006 there were around 52 coconut trees on the island, 2 in Santa Cruz, 4 in Caniço de baixo, 37 in Funchal, 2 in Ponta do sol, 5 in Madalena do Mar, 2 in Paul do Mar and 4 coconut palms on Porto Santo. Now in 2015 there are approximately 25 coconut trees on Madeira and 3 on Porto Santo... 2 in Santa Cruz, 1 in Caniço de Baixo, 15 in Funchal, 1 in Ponta do Sol, 4 in Madalena do mar and 2 in Paul do mar. Even el Hierro on the Canary islands has more coconut trees than us... They are removing all the coconut trees on the island and maybe some day (I hope not) there will be no more coconut palms on the island... it's a shame !

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Hello Proeza thank you! When I am back to the island I will continue my report and inform you guys of what is going on:).

Regarding those pictures, they are indeed form the Canary Islands. We were trying to figure out if Madeira and Canary Islands shared the same type of coconuts as they look similar. So I was trying to look at the seeds from those palms to guess if it was from a Jamaican Tall, Pacific all or maypan:). Do you actually know any coconut on Canary Islands that has a spherical crown? From Keith's old thread (which I linked on this page) it seems that apparently they may need some years till they get that look.

Regarding Lanzarote coconuts, it is indeed amazing if they do not get rain I would not imagine this being possible, they do look very dry though. If you look at the last 2 pictures from post #268 and the pictures from post #269 you can see two coco palms planted on the beach's volcanic rocks that are also suffering from drought. Madeira has been having no rain in the south and southwest coast, 4 months and something without raining. In these last 3 days this has changed and is raining a lot.

Regarding the Hawaii of europe, I think it is mostly used because of the awesome surf waves an the look of the green hills that look quiet similar to the ones in Hawaii(look at the pictures I posted before). Our other islands do not look as similar because they are more flat. The climate of Madeira while not being warm like Hawaii is always mild, there is no real cold there and most days you can wear tshitr during the day in the winter, especially with sun:). Some zones on the island are warmer than Funchal (Like Ponta do Sol (Lugar de baixo weather station) ) and even Ponta do Sol, however Madeira has very bad coverage of those warm places.

Pargomad, yes Portuguese people do not care much what they plant, Madeira would look better with more trees with perennial leaves. Still the south zone does look very tropical, everyone and their mother has a banana at least:D

As for my attempt at trying out the coconut in our garden at 140 m, I wonder if there will be a problem with our sprinklers, we use them to keep the grass green?

Thank you

ps: Have you guys noticed how much the cocos grew since 2009?!

Edited by Cluster
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Yes, madeira does look tropical in summer or spring, the southern coast with all those banana fields and also other tropical fruits such as sugar cane, mangos, avocados, etc... The northern coast also looks tropical but there you have more vineyards than bananas. The forest (the laurissilva and eucalyptus forest) looks a lot like a jungle (when I was a child I thougt this was like Jurassic park). But in fall or winter you see this "tropical athmosphere" disappearing with the loss of leaves from the temperate trees on the island, for example the plane trees and poplars give you the impression you're in England. In summer you don't notice them because the leaves are all green and the temperate trees are like invisible in the middle of the subtropical and tropical flora. On the Canary islands you don't see temperate or mediterranean trees on the coastline, but only higher in the perfect micro climate floor. You can have fields of banana trees at the sea level with coconut palms and other tropical palms, then higher (above 500 m) you have a typical mediterranean micro climate with almond trees, vineyards, chestnut trees, pinetrees, etc.

On Madeira it's different, on the coast where 70% of the madeirans live, you have a bunch of tropical, subtropical, mediterranean and temperate trees, so it's normal to see banana trees just next to a plane tree and a olive tree and THIS breaks the tropical athmosphere... On the Canary island you can feel like you were on a tropical island, in a desert, in southern Europe, in a jungle, etc...

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Proeza, that is why I love the canarian islands ! Despite having the quite same climate with Madeira, they know how to handle with ornamental trees and palmtrees ! When I have nothing to do I love spending my time wandering on street view on the canary islands because it's so beautiful to me (I hate Madeira on street view because the pictures were taken in Winter in 2009, meanwhile the pics of the canarian islands are recent and were taken in summer).

The difference with the portuguese and the spaniards about gardening is that the spaniards love to plant subtropical and tropical trees (with perennial leaves) meanwhile in Portugal they do not care about that, they'd rather plant shadow trees, tropical or temperate... We can see this on Madeira where You have avenues with a lot of trees like jacarandas, tipuanas tipu, london plane trees, etc. On the canarian islands they plant lots of roystoneas, delonix regia, cocos and a lot of palms...

I just hope Madeira, one day, will look like the canarian islands and will stop planting temperate trees.

Well, it depends on which island you are talking about. Generally the Canary Islands are slightly warmer than Madeira; (it depends in which island are you talking about, because it can be quite warmer than Madeira or in a few spots on the north and east coast could be even colder, think that the difference is big in the same island, actually you can go from 20ºC on the northern coast to 19ºC in a spot of the mid-east coast and then 23ºC at the south.west coast) the northern coast of the biggest islands have a very similar climate (like Cluster said some time ago, the North Coast of Tenerife has almost the same climate as Madeira, it's a bit bit warmer on winters but in springs, summers and autumns the climate is the same) but places like La Palma (Tazacorte zone for example) or the South coast of both Gran Canaria and Tenerife; and the "desert" islands, which are Lanzarote, Fuerteventura and La Graciosa are a bit or quite warmer than Madeira. (another time it depends in which island, as I said depending in which spot it is; there are spots even colder than in Madeira)

Specially in winters, where the average maximum is 2-3ºC warmer and the average minimum depends by day, but normally is 2-3-4ºC warmer. (I mean for the official climate chart of Madeira which says that in January the average temps are 18-19/13) but also it's a big difference in summers too, Madeira got for average 25/18 26/19 in July and August while for example those places I mentioned before get 30/22 31/23 on summers. Sincerely I prefer a looot of times 25/18 because in those 30/22-31/23 the night is so warm and humid and it's stinky and it's non very comfortable... The same happens here where I live in Valencia; summers are just so stinky and warm; i'd prefer a milder climate. Without air conditioning running ASAP 24/7 you think you are in Cuba or Malvines or something, very warm and hot... you are sweating everytime you go out on the streets. :( (I hate this)

What I'm reading, it says that in some spots of Madeira the average annual temps get to 20ºC; but the warmest islands are Ilhas Selvagens. right? Here says that those islands are even warmer than Madeira and the average annual temperature here (Ilhas Selvagens) is ~20ºC; and in some places in the Canary Islands it arrives to 23ºC the mean annual average while the zones with the biggest amount of population get about 22ºC as the average yearly temperature, like Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, which gets 21.8ºC as the year average. It's a different climate; Bermudas instead have a very similar climate to Canary Islands but Madeira is milder.

Canary Islands can mean a lot of things. Remember that those islands have very different climates, from an almost tropical jungle to a totally Sahara desert, this happens from an island to another. The quite same climate is where Cluster said, like for example in North Tenerife. The island which has the most similar climate to Madeira it's El Hierro. Madeira and El Hierro have almost the same average temperatures; and even almost the same amount of rain. (It depends on which part of the island we talking about, but I refer to the eastern part which gets about 500-600mm per year and mainly in winters, like in Madeira) and it has a very mild climate, like in Madeira.

Canary Islands tend to be very hot on summers, while Madeira is a lot milder. Obviously it's a difference being on 29ºN with 32ºN... Madeira is located at 32ºN and the climate is not very different with El Hierro which is at 28ºN; so obviously you have a very great climate of course. The luckiest guys are located on Bermudas. 32ºN and they got almost the same temperatures as the hottest spots on the entire Canary Islands, which are 3-4º more at the south.

Bermudas, with 20/16 on winters, and the lowest temperature is 7ºC; almost the same as in LPGC where is 9ºC the lowest temperature recorded. In Bermuda they could grow quite well coconuts, and it has of course, but the climate it's not very appreciated, like it happens in a lot of parts of the Canaries or in Madeira. Coconuts in Bermudas are mainly in the gardens of the hotels.

If you do a quick Google search you'll find this:

Front_Street_Hamilton_Bermuda.jpg

hamilton_1213129c.jpg

Front_Street,_Hamilton,_Bermuda.jpg

CIDP, Dracaenas... Those kinds of palm trees/plants grow even in Scilly island, UK. (Scilly Island is a 9b/10a very very very mild island located in the English Channel)

Edited by pRoeZa*

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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Guys, obviously all I write it's for climatic and informational purposes, i'm not trying to make any stupid climate battle. Don't mind of my ubication and don't mind of my predilection, think in a second that I'm not from Spain hehe! For example, places in Florida at 28ºN are quite more warmer than the warmest islands on the Canaries. They get real cold in severe cold waves, but they also get 27ºC at day and 20ºC at night by the end of March... Well, that's 100% tropical and for my taste that is very very stinky, while in the entire summer they get 32-33/25-26 and half of the summer is raining. Everytime a lot of warm, a lot of humidity... that's even stinkier than here. :sick:

I love meteorology and normally I look everyday for temps in Azores, Madeira, Canary Islands, Spain, Portugal, Malta, Cyprus, Greece... And who cares if the Canaries are a bit warmer ¿? Madeira still has got a very beautiful climate and a very very mild and appropiate climate to live in, as I said I'd prefer a lot more to live in Madeira on summers. More hot in winters, and a bit bit more in spring, would make Madeira the best climate in the world. Personally talking, for me, the best climate actually is the one in La Palma island at Tazacorte; where you get on winters 21-22/16-17 (some days 20/15 too) making in the eternal spring!

Also Madeira would grow quite well coconuts, maybe they will not be growning up like in the hottest points of the Canaries or Bermudas, because like a lot of users from this forum know, coconuts need the magic 20ºC every day in winters to be enjoying their environment, but you don't have any cold in Madeira so you can plant them and them will grow up! Like we all saw in this thread, growing coconuts in Madeira it's not impossible (of course lol!) and they grow good with the proper cares! We can see here that even after a colder winter than normal they get this aspect which is not bad at all:

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But in a private garden... looks very beautiful.

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Soon I will be making a thread only for the Canary Islands, from El Hierro to La Graciosa. I hope you guys pass in my thread and take a seat when it's gonna be made! :)

By "streetviewing" I discovered a lot of impressive coconuts but also a lot of impressive roystoneas, in which the oldest ones have a cuban 15-20m size. (well this is not very impressive although roystonea grows well in the southernmost coast of continental Spain, but of course not as well as in the Canaries by far; in contintental Spain are species with ~10m but as tall as those in the Canaries... not)

Edited by pRoeZa*

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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It's difficult to say what variety the coconuts on Maderia are as they are stunted. The Newport beach coconut is a Hawaiian tall but it grows slowly and small because of the climate. I would think that the ones on Maderia and the Canary islands would be West African talls due to the proximity to Africa, but it's hard to be sure. Jamaican talls are very closely related to the West African tall.

I think that the one from Newport Beach died this year. Street view from October 2014: (October, before the entire 2014-2015 winter and in October is still quite warm... :( :( :(...) http://goo.gl/maps/8e99u

This one was with a lot of special care and his soil was hotter than normal or something like that, I don't remember very well what I readed but in the own plaque of the coconut it says that it's on a special microclimate and it has a hotter soil.

Those are 2014 photos...

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Really I am suffering seeing how this little plant is suffering. Definetly placing a coconut in a place like that is a very big challenge; but it's very very far from it's glorious days at the beggining of the 21th century... a true pity. :crying:

Edited by pRoeZa*

I live in Altea, Spain 38°34'N 0º03'O. USDA zone 11a. Coastal microclimate sheltered by mountains. 
The coconuts shown in my avatar are from the Canary Islands, Spain ! :)

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Hey Proeza don't worry, according to the normals 81-2010 from our official meteo institute (IPMA), Funchal is like wikipedia says(their source comes from IPMA):

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so the coldest month is February with 19,7 average high and 13,4 low, the warmest months are August and September with 20 low and 26,4 high. The problem with the data from Funchal is that they changed the weather station at some point and the new one is warmer they also have another station in Lido zone which is warmer than the new one.

As for our warmer zones they are located in the southwest coast, there is not much data but Ponta do Sol (Lugar de baixo) is one official station that is as close as we have to the warmest spots:

I show you this thesis(http://digituma.uma.pt/bitstream/10400.13/41/1/DoutoramentoJ.%20Carlos%20Magro%20Esteves.pdf) table with official data from IPMA where you can see the Funchal station against Ponta do Sol in a period of 4 years:

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The private coconut gardens are located in the southwest coast near the sea, a place called Paul do Mar, which I predict is slight warmer than Ponta do Sol, which I can explain if you are interested. The pictures were taken during the last February (the coldest month).

One of the things I want to do this summer is to get a reliable thermometer and check various locations to test many of the micro climates in a very rudimentary way:)

Edited by Cluster
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Proeza I can't wait for your new thread about the canarian cocos ! And for the quite same climate I mentioned earlier, I meant they had a macaronesian climate (of course there are a lot of micro climates, even on Madeira), I didn't say they had the same temperatures etc, I just added it was the same type of climate.

Cluster, I think Madeira's climate is actually underestimated. I do think Madeira has a warmer climate than what people think. Even the madeirans don't know how blessed they are with this mild and enough warm subtropical climate (might be for this reason why they don't plant a lot of extreme tropical trees like the coconut palm).

A few months ago I sent an email to the municipality of Funchal (gardening department) asking why they don't plant cocos anymore and why they keep planting temperate trees like plane trees. But they didn't answer. I should send a message again to another email.

I'm also thinking about creating a new thread about ornamental palms and trees of Madeira with maybe everyday a new plant or palmtree with informations, currency on the island and some pictures. What do you think ?

Edited by Pargomad
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It is funny you think like that as well, because I have been thinking the same for the last coupe of years. Even a friend of mine from the continent has this wrong idea that is cold! and rainy there, because the media maybe does not speak much about it unless something big (like the huge storm some years ago) affects the island. They also think Algarve an south Spain is what is warm, disregarding the islands. Another reason is we have few weather stations on the island located in the warmer spots. When I ask the people there if they know coconuts grow there they had no clue it was possible :P. I start to believe even a cyrtostachys renda might grow there, though I would like to see those tried out there I still prefer coconuts! The climate in the special spots, might even be considered Tropical in terms of temperatures.

I would try to talk with them again:P

You could also create a new thread to speak about Madeira of course and people might be interested to visit us. This one is mostly around cocos, but I guess speaking here about landscape and other palms/trees from time to time does not hurt it and adds interest:). Though if you find cocos link them here too, we want to see Madeira coco news! :)

Edited by Cluster
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The climate of Madeira has always been, for me, kind of mysterious. My mother comes from there and since I was born I've spent some summers there but I actually remember only two : summer 2009 and summer 2012.

In summer 2009 I had the impression Madeira's climate was very humid and mild (I remember a lot of humidity, also rain and temperatures hardly reaching 30 degrees celsius). I did see some cocos but at this time I couldn't believe they grow on the island.

In summer 2012 it was the opposite ! Hot temperatures reaching 36 degrees, everything dry (even the leaves of the coconut palms of the marina and parc almirante reis were dry and burnt ! ) and forest fire.

So since 2012 I'm looking at Madeira's climate differently. I even think it's getting warmer with the years.

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