Cocos nucifera on Madeira Island

[Cluster]

@Pargomad Where did you see an euterpe edulis (I have one in a pot but that is not public yet:P)?

[IlyaIvanov]

8 minutes ago, Pargomad said:

Here is a list I’ve established over the last years about the variety of palms that grow or can be grown on Madeira island. For that, I based myself on a phytogeographic study, on some statements made here on the forum and, finally, on my trips there or on some photos I saw on the internet. I would like to make clear that this is a non-exhaustive list and if you have any useful addition or comment, don't hesitate and tell me on the comments below ! 

- Acoelorraphe wrightii

- Adonidia merrilli

- Acrocomia aculeate

- Allagoptera arenaria

- Archontophoenix alexandrae

- Archontophoenix cunninghamiana

- Arenga engleri

- Bismarckia nobilis

- Brahea armata

- Brahea dulcis

- Butia capitata

- Caryota maxima

- Caryota mitis

- Caryota urens

- Chambeyronia macrocarpa

- Chamaedora costaricana

- Chamaedorea elegans

- Chamaedora erupens

- Chamaerops humilis

- Cocos nucifera

- Copernicia alba

- Dypsis decaryi

- Dypsis lutescens

- Euterpe edulis

- Howea belmoreana

- Howea forsteriana

- Hyophorbe lagenicaulis

- Hyophorbe verschaffeltii

- Jubaea chilensis

- Latania lontaroides

- Livistona australis

- Livistona chinensis

- Livistona mariae

- Livistona saribus

- Phoenix canariensis

- Phoenix dactylifera

- Phoenix reclinata

- Phoenix roebelenii

- Polyandrococos caudescens

- Ptychosperma elegans

- Ptychosperma macarthurii

- Ravenea rivularis

- Rhapis excelsa

- Rhopalostylis sapida

- Roystonea borinquena

- Roystonea oleracea

- Roystonea regia

- Sabal mauritiiformis

- Sabal mexicana

- Sabal minor

- Sabal palmetto

- Sabal uresana

- Serenoa repens

- Syagrus botryophora

- Syagrus romanzoffiana

- Trachycarpus fortunei

- Trithrinax brasiliensis

- Veitchia arecina

- Wallichia caryotoides

- Washingtonia filifera

- Washingtonia robusta

- Wodyetia bifurcata

 

Now, If I had a house there I would definitely try to recreate a typical tropical Hawaiian garden with common palm species used there such as cocos nucifera, adonidia merrilli, pritchardia sp., roystonea sp. , dypsis lutescens, latania loddigesii, etc. 

Thanks for the list! 

[Cluster]

That was for January, forgot to mention:) The warmest parts of Funchal are probably very close to Bermuda, the extreme lows are warmer in Funchal as it is more protected from such events.

[Pargomad]

18 minutes ago, Cluster said:

Here is my 2 cents:

In very warm and protected areas of Cyprus and similar Mediterranean, you might be able to keep them up. Not sure it would survive 30 year old extremes in these areas, though, if you do not intervene, which for a coco will be too many weeks with rain and low temperatures. It is better to have 0 degrees min/14max and sunshine for 2 days than 16/8 and rain for 2 weeks. If you have surrounding walls it gives an extra leg for sure and those that can have a mild success usually plant them in such locations by having the coco near a south wall or even more.

Your location will be warmer than all these spots, the UV will be stronger, only the sunshine remains in question and how good your soil drainage is. If indeed you have low wind that helps too. Take care of drainage first and then shelter and sunshine.

@Pargomad I do not believe we have seen that coconut in Santa Cruz do you mean the Gaula one?

Those studies of the north coast are probably wrong, the only thing you can compete with is probably the lows, but mean and high temperatures will be higher on average in the south/southwest. Why do I say this? More sunshine in the south, prevailing winds are NE, which means the Foehn effect will have an impact on the south/southwest coast more often. When the wind rotates to SW then the north might be warmer. There have been a few coastal stations before and now, one used to be in Ponta Delgada (do now know what altitude, ponta delgada can go higher up than one expects) and Porto Moniz one that is currently online. Both are cooler than Funchal, the lows of Porto Moniz are very good though. Another reason is to be addicted to the car thermometer, it is rare to see the north as warm as the south and Gaula is warm by the way, so are parts of Funchal,.

I am almost sure Center Funchal and West Funchal can be as warm as SW coast, ideally you will probably want to be on a slope in the south side 200/300 meters from the sea or so, this will give you higher max and the drainage from the slope and proximity to the sea will hold great lows.

I'm sorry I meant the Gaula one. 

I used the data available on the official Portuguese institute (IPMA) displayed on their website. It is the only detailed map we have about the island. There's nothing else available for us and I'm not sure they will conduct a rigorous study about this any time soon. Until then, we're only to speculate. 

About the Euterpe edulis, I think I read somewhere they were growing it in a hotel in Paúl do Mar, but I'm not sure if it's in a greenhouse or not.

[IlyaIvanov]

5 minutes ago, Cluster said:

That was for January, forgot to mention:) The warmest parts of Funchal are probably very close to Bermuda, the extreme lows are warmer in Funchal as it is more protected from such events.

The only negative thing about Funchal Lido is that it's soo dry, total precipitation in 2019 was 124mm! That's drier than Porto Santo (340mm)

EN_S_Precipitacao_Anual_0022.xlsx

[Cluster]

4 minutes ago, Pargomad said:

I'm sorry I meant the Gaula one. 

I used the data available on the official Portuguese institute (IPMA) displayed on their website. It is the only detailed map we have about the island. There's nothing else available for us and I'm not sure they will conduct a rigorous study about this any time soon. Until then, we're only to speculate. 

About the Euterpe edulis, I think I read somewhere they were growing it in a hotel in Paúl do Mar, but I'm not sure if it's in a greenhouse or not.

I understand but still there is no data, just modelling there, it is very hard to model Madeira. From my experience in the north, Ponta Delgada, Porto da Cruz and those cliffs near Faja da Areia in São Vicente are warm. Porto Moniz a bit windy but maybe a bit more inland and would be good. In Ponta Delgada there are pristine flowering Heliconias rostratas. Maybe Faial can ahve potential too, but usually Faial is further way from the ocean and higher altitude.

 

What location for the coconut in the north? I could check it one of these days, I am pretty sure you can grow them in the north with the right drainage and altitude. 

 

 

[Cluster]

10 minutes ago, IlyaIvanov said:

The only negative thing about Funchal Lido is that it's soo dry, total precipitation in 2019 was 124mm! That's drier than Porto Santo (340mm)

EN_S_Precipitacao_Anual_0022.xlsx 108.97 kB · 0 downloads

If you are lucky you can have a place that has access to levadas/irrigation water, then it is easier to deal with.

[Pargomad]

13 minutes ago, Cluster said:

I understand but still there is no data, just modelling there, it is very hard to model Madeira. From my experience in the north, Ponta Delgada, Porto da Cruz and those cliffs near Faja da Areia in São Vicente are warm. Porto Moniz a bit windy but maybe a bit more inland and would be good. In Ponta Delgada there are pristine flowering Heliconias rostratas. Maybe Faial can ahve potential too, but usually Faial is further way from the ocean and higher altitude.

 

What location for the coconut in the north? I could check it one of these days, I am pretty sure you can grow them in the north with the right drainage and altitude. 

 

 

I don't know, a friend of mine who is a botanist there told me there was one in Calhau (de São Jorge?) in a private garden. I never checked it. 

I really don't know, sometimes I feel there's a huge gap between what official data tells us and what it is like in reality. The only thing I'm sure about is that Madeirans don't exploit the potential of their climate to the full. Just the other day I saw they had replaced two coconut trees in a hotel by the pool in Funchal by two trachycarpus fortuneii... This species can succesfully grow here in Switzerland...    

[IlyaIvanov]

13 minutes ago, Pargomad said:

I don't know, a friend of mine who is a botanist there told me there was one in Calhau (de São Jorge?) in a private garden. I never checked it. 

I really don't know, sometimes I feel there's a huge gap between what official data tells us and what it is like in reality. The only thing I'm sure about is that Madeirans don't exploit the potential of their climate to the full. Just the other day I saw they had replaced two coconut trees in a hotel by the pool in Funchal by two trachycarpus fortuneii... This species can succesfully grow here in Switzerland...    

I grow Trachycarpus Fortuneii here in Czechia (zone 7a) It's one of the toughest plams there is. I am surprised it isn't too warm for them in Madeira.

I wonder where do they put the Cocos that they replaced. I would gladly take one 😀

Edited September 18 by IlyaIvanov

[Cluster]

14 minutes ago, Pargomad said:

I don't know, a friend of mine who is a botanist there told me there was one in Calhau (de São Jorge?) in a private garden. I never checked it. 

I really don't know, sometimes I feel there's a huge gap between what official data tells us and what it is like in reality. The only thing I'm sure about is that Madeirans don't exploit the potential of their climate to the full. Just the other day I saw they had replaced two coconut trees in a hotel by the pool in Funchal by two trachycarpus fortuneii... This species can succesfully grow here in Switzerland...    

I hate they are not aware of their potential, I don't think I know this hotel?! In any case it seems to be too late now?

[Pargomad]

22 minutes ago, Cluster said:

I hate they are not aware of their potential, I don't think I know this hotel?! In any case it seems to be too late now?

They died like 7 years ago, and I just found out they had replaced them with trachycarpus.

Here’s how the hotel looked like:

and this is now:

[IlyaIvanov]

Why did they die?

[Pargomad]

2 hours ago, IlyaIvanov said:

Why did they die?

I don't know! Probably bad care.

[Pargomad]

I just came across these photos from 15 years ago. At that time there were more coconut trees on the island, especially in Funchal at the seafront. Enjoy.

[Cluster]

I guess is is time to update the island news.

As for the coconuts that could die, this usually can happen if the palm does not get enough water or too much water or bad soil (poor drainage)/not enough soil.

The ones that are planted with enough and good soil usually fair pretty well, in fact the coconut at 200 meters altitude, Funchal, looks very nice.  After I spoke with the owner it became much better, now he does not trim the coco as much and he started adding some bunny manure to it.

[Pargomad]

I was looking at some photos of beaches in Tenerife's northern coast and La Palma today and I was wondering why there are so many differences with Madeira. I'm always amazed to see coconut trees growing on the black sand on the Canary islands, but for some reason, they never tried that in Madeira. Here are three photos of some beaches in Tenerife north and La Palma:

 

Those areas share a similar climate with the southwestern coast of Madeira: temperatures are roughly the same but the climate is drier there than in Madeira, so they need more irrigation.  Yet, you can see natural and artificial beaches full of coconut palms, which gives an exotic atmosphere to the place.

In contrast, on Madeira island, beaches usually are completely empty. Sometimes there are some date palms and london plane trees in seapromenades surrounding them.  

Praia Formosa in Funchal: 

Machico beach surrounded by london planes: 

I can't help but wonder how the island would look like if it had been colonized by Spain. I used an AI for fun and turned the photos above into a Spanish version of Madeira. Here's what I got: 

Here's another photo of Funchal nowadays. Then the Spanish version below: 

 

If Madeira were Spanish, there wouldn't be any temperate deciduous tree at sea level, (not even mediterranean trees), there would be palm trees everywhere, especially date palms, and the beaches would feature small populations of coconut trees. Unlike the Portuguese, Spaniards love palm trees and are fully aware of the potential of their climates. 

[Foxpalms]

@Pargomad I agree that they need to take advantage of Madeira's climate more, but parts of Tenerife's northern coast seem to be quite a bit warmer than Funchal. In March it got up to 38c there this year. I think they had heatwave in early August where it got up to 44c. The coconuts on the northern coast look better than the ones on the southern coasts in my opinion, likely because of the increased humidity and rainfall.

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Foxpalms