Butia eriospatha X Syagrus glaucescens

[buffy]

Alright folks, Alberto's cross is stepping out of the toddler phase and is starting to show some adult characteristics. The fronds are flat, rigid so far. The character is distinctive, but I don't think we're dealing with a mature look yet.

What do you call this property of an offset pinnae tip. Every pinnae shows this:

[tank]

Awesome, thanks for the update. How old is it?

[buffy]

2 years 2 months

[Alberto]

I´m very glad to see your palm Buffy! I have one that is about the same size as yours! I´ll take a look at the leaflets and see if they also show the same "offset pinnae tip" :-)

I´m very curious how they will look in the future, with some trunk.

Soon I´ll have S. glaucescens pollen and will cross my very silvery B.catarinensis (I tried to cross it with the very blue S. microphylla but all the seeds are little compact stones )

[Alberto]

Today I took a look at the tips of my B.eriospatha x S. glaucescens and also the S. romanzoffiana x S. glaucescens and BOTH show the same "offset pinnae tip". I´m not sure how common is this trait in cocosoids.....

[buffy]

So its something to do with glaucescens. Looking at my Lorenzi book of Brazilian palms, I'm seeing several Syagrus showing this offset in pictures, but no where is it described.

[Tropicdoc]

Interesting that the fronds are flat. In most standard mules, the leaflets come off on an upward v angle like a butia. IMO flat fronds = tropical look

[buffy]

Not a great picture, but you can now see that the pinnae are splitting with an offset.

[tank]

Buffy,

Are the leaves thicker than a typical butiagrus? Any glaucous coloring on the leaves? Thanks for the update.

[Alberto]

The strap leaves are a lot bigger than a pure B.eriospatha and they have a carboard consistence. Not showing real glaucous collor yet.

[Alberto]

.

[tank]

Thanks Alberto,

Definitely looks different than a typical butiagrus.

Any plans to attempt this hybrid again?

[Alberto]

Yes! For a real silver dwarfish Butyagrus, I´ll try S. glaucescens pollen on my most silver Butia catarinensis. I´m waiting for the pollen......

[buffy]

That's a great confirmation photo, Alberto. Yes, course fronds. I'd say I'm seeing a hint of wax on the petioles, but very deep green otherwise. Alberto's looks exactly like mine so far.

[tank]

Alberto,

Any thoughts on trying this hybrid with a Butia yatay mother? Do you have access to a mature B. yatay? Seems as though it may result in a larger silvery hybrid.

[Alberto]

Yes I have fruiting Butia yatay. I´ll try it on this palm also.

Here is my bigger B.erio x S.glaucescens

[Alberto]

B.erio / S.glaucens / Butyagrus leaflets

2nd pic :Detail of leaflets, underside. (Sorry not very clear but you will have an idea)

3th pic; detail of leaflets , from above

[mnorell]

Buffy--

Has yours gone through a winter in the ground? My experience with pure S. glaucescens in Natchez was that it would defoliate around 26-27F and return very slowly. A 23F winter finally killed it there. I'm curious how much cold tolerance those Butia genes impart.

[tank]

B.erio / S.glaucens / Butyagrus leaflets

2nd pic :Detail of leaflets, underside. (Sorry not very clear but you will have an idea)

3th pic; detail of leaflets , from above

Thanks Alberto,

Great pics!

They hybrid is definitely more glaucous than the Butia mother.

What is the minimum temperature that your hybrids (B x S. glaucescens) have been exposed to?

[buffy]

It has not seen a winter yet. My guess is that it will take the upper teens. But there is only one way to find out. This first winter, I will cover it will a moving blanket and add heat if things get ugly. There's not reason to subject it to abuse as it gets established. I'm hoping that there's some synergy with the thick leaves and Butia's hardiness.

Here's another noteworthy characteristic in the frond. Look carefully at the frond. See what looks like leaf tip imprints like an agave. See how they match up with where the pinnae tip offset. The missing tip may be mechanical in nature from a tight growing point and thick fronds. Just conjecture on my part.

[Alberto]

Mine have also not seen real cold. This winter was fairly warm, but all the nights with chance of frost i covered all my little palms.I think there is no reason to let so young seedlings totally exposed., since native palms sometimes have spearpull when young and after some years of growth they are "hardier". The influence of the "cytoplasmatic inheritance" (the egg is from the Butia) also will contribute to the the overall cold hardiness I think..... (hope.....)

[Alberto]

It has not seen a winter yet. My guess is that it will take the upper teens. But there is only one way to find out. This first winter, I will cover it will a moving blanket and add heat if things get ugly. There's not reason to subject it to abuse as it gets established. I'm hoping that there's some synergy with the thick leaves and Butia's hardiness.

Here's another noteworthy characteristic in the frond. Look carefully at the frond. See what looks like leaf tip imprints like an agave. See how they match up with where the pinnae tip offset. The missing tip may be mechanical in nature from a tight growing point and thick fronds. Just conjecture on my part.

Nice picture! I´ll take a look and see if mine also show this "leaf tip imprints"

[buffy]

If you look close. It's an imprint, but there's also a leaf thickening at the very tip of the pinnae and of the imprints.

[Mandrew968]

So its something to do with glaucescens. Looking at my Lorenzi book of Brazilian palms, I'm seeing several Syagrus showing this offset in pictures, but no where is it described.

Love that book--love your hybrid too.

[tank]

Mandrew,

You growing S. glaucescens down your way?

I only know of one fruiting tree in Florida, although that probably means there are several. Would love to get some pollen and hybridize some of our north Florida butias.

[Mandrew968]

Jason, I actually do not have one, nor have I ever seen one in person. I do have plenty of Coconut pollen, if we wanna go down that road again seriously, I am trying to think of some pollen you might actually want, that I have... arikury?

[tank]

Jason, I actually do not have one, nor have I ever seen one in person. I do have plenty of Coconut pollen, if we wanna go down that road again seriously, I am trying to think of some pollen you might actually want, that I have... arikury?

Thanks for the Coconut pollen but I've got some at my families house down south that started flowering last year. Not sure if I'd even bother trying.

Any other "unusual" syagrus would be great, as long as it isn't too much trouble. The steps are pretty easy.

1. Wait until the flower starts dropping pollen.

2. Cut the upper half of the flower/pollen into a paper grocery bag. Usually most of the male flowers are on the upper end of the inflorescence. Its usually easy to see where the male flowers start to thin out and the females start to become thick. I'm definitely not familiar with every syagrus or butia, but generally this is how their inflorescences are set up.

3. If possible, place the paper bag in a dry warm spot, under 100F, probably next to a sunny window in an air conditioned house, and let the pollen slowly dry for a day or two. Merrill Wilcox had a drying oven that kept the pollen, I believe, around 90 or 95F. Most of us do not have access to this.

4. At this point, Merrill would use a mechanical sifter to seperate out the maximum amount of pollen from the flowers/stems/other debris. He would then ad some silica drying crystals and put it in a tupperware and keep it in the fridge. Probably fine to just add the silica crystals to the paper bag and ship the pollen off.

5. Most folks cut the sifted pollen with talc powder. The few times that I've hybridized I used an eye dropper to disperse the "cut" pollen on to the emasculated and receptive female flowers. Keep the hybridized flowers in a garbage bag or pillowcase or something to keep pollenators from accessing your flowers. Usually pollenated the receptive flowers 3 or 4 times over the few days that the female flowers are receptive.

There are a couple threads on this forum detailing this.

The process is actually very simple if you're careful. I'm sure other folks have more elaborate and efficient ways of doing it but this way works pretty well.

Let me know if you're interested and we can work something out.

[buffy]

Here's a weird thing. My hybrid is starting to show tip hooks like a Jubaea. Weird.

[Mandrew968]

Jason, I actually do not have one, nor have I ever seen one in person. I do have plenty of Coconut pollen, if we wanna go down that road again seriously, I am trying to think of some pollen you might actually want, that I have... arikury?

Thanks for the Coconut pollen but I've got some at my families house down south that started flowering last year. Not sure if I'd even bother trying.

Any other "unusual" syagrus would be great, as long as it isn't too much trouble. The steps are pretty easy.

1. Wait until the flower starts dropping pollen.

2. Cut the upper half of the flower/pollen into a paper grocery bag. Usually most of the male flowers are on the upper end of the inflorescence. Its usually easy to see where the male flowers start to thin out and the females start to become thick. I'm definitely not familiar with every syagrus or butia, but generally this is how their inflorescences are set up.

3. If possible, place the paper bag in a dry warm spot, under 100F, probably next to a sunny window in an air conditioned house, and let the pollen slowly dry for a day or two. Merrill Wilcox had a drying oven that kept the pollen, I believe, around 90 or 95F. Most of us do not have access to this.

4. At this point, Merrill would use a mechanical sifter to seperate out the maximum amount of pollen from the flowers/stems/other debris. He would then ad some silica drying crystals and put it in a tupperware and keep it in the fridge. Probably fine to just add the silica crystals to the paper bag and ship the pollen off.

5. Most folks cut the sifted pollen with talc powder. The few times that I've hybridized I used an eye dropper to disperse the "cut" pollen on to the emasculated and receptive female flowers. Keep the hybridized flowers in a garbage bag or pillowcase or something to keep pollenators from accessing your flowers. Usually pollenated the receptive flowers 3 or 4 times over the few days that the female flowers are receptive.

There are a couple threads on this forum detailing this.

The process is actually very simple if you're careful. I'm sure other folks have more elaborate and efficient ways of doing it but this way works pretty well.

Let me know if you're interested and we can work something out.

Heck yeah, I will be on the lookout. Maybe Allagoptera brevicalyx pollen? mine has already set seed and will hopefully pop in a month or two...

[Mandrew968]

Here's a weird thing. My hybrid is starting to show tip hooks like a Jubaea. Weird.

Are you talking about the zig zag tip of the leaflets? My syagrus schizophylla does that--thought it was a defficiency(boron or zinc issue)? The palm looks otherwaise very robust and is a profuse seeder.

[buffy]

Here's a weird thing. My hybrid is starting to show tip hooks like a Jubaea. Weird.

Are you talking about the zig zag tip of the leaflets? My syagrus schizophylla does that--thought it was a defficiency(boron or zinc issue)? The palm looks otherwaise very robust and is a profuse seeder.

No. This is different. Jubaea like hooks. Not the squirrelly zig-zags. Actually, it looks more like Jub X Butia hooks.

[iamjv]

Good looking hybrid Buffy !!!!

[Josh-O]

Beautiful looking palm Buffy!! How can I get one of those puppies?

[Alicehunter2000]

Jason, I actually do not have one, nor have I ever seen one in person. I do have plenty of Coconut pollen, if we wanna go down that road again seriously, I am trying to think of some pollen you might actually want, that I have... arikury?

Thanks for the Coconut pollen but I've got some at my families house down south that started flowering last year. Not sure if I'd even bother trying.

Any other "unusual" syagrus would be great, as long as it isn't too much trouble. The steps are pretty easy.

1. Wait until the flower starts dropping pollen.

2. Cut the upper half of the flower/pollen into a paper grocery bag. Usually most of the male flowers are on the upper end of the inflorescence. Its usually easy to see where the male flowers start to thin out and the females start to become thick. I'm definitely not familiar with every syagrus or butia, but generally this is how their inflorescences are set up.

3. If possible, place the paper bag in a dry warm spot, under 100F, probably next to a sunny window in an air conditioned house, and let the pollen slowly dry for a day or two. Merrill Wilcox had a drying oven that kept the pollen, I believe, around 90 or 95F. Most of us do not have access to this.

4. At this point, Merrill would use a mechanical sifter to seperate out the maximum amount of pollen from the flowers/stems/other debris. He would then ad some silica drying crystals and put it in a tupperware and keep it in the fridge. Probably fine to just add the silica crystals to the paper bag and ship the pollen off.

5. Most folks cut the sifted pollen with talc powder. The few times that I've hybridized I used an eye dropper to disperse the "cut" pollen on to the emasculated and receptive female flowers. Keep the hybridized flowers in a garbage bag or pillowcase or something to keep pollenators from accessing your flowers. Usually pollenated the receptive flowers 3 or 4 times over the few days that the female flowers are receptive.

There are a couple threads on this forum detailing this.

The process is actually very simple if you're careful. I'm sure other folks have more elaborate and efficient ways of doing it but this way works pretty well.

Let me know if you're interested and we can work something out.

Tank, thanks for the instructions, the other thread you mentioned went into detail concerning the female flower but almost nothing concerning pollen collection. I printed it out and will add to my paper copy of the other thread. May give it a shot. I really would like to start backcrossing my mules with queen pollen. To get something of a colder hardy queen lookalike.

How long you reckon the pollen would stay good in the fridge or freezer?

[tank]

Jason, I actually do not have one, nor have I ever seen one in person. I do have plenty of Coconut pollen, if we wanna go down that road again seriously, I am trying to think of some pollen you might actually want, that I have... arikury?

Thanks for the Coconut pollen but I've got some at my families house down south that started flowering last year. Not sure if I'd even bother trying.

Any other "unusual" syagrus would be great, as long as it isn't too much trouble. The steps are pretty easy.

1. Wait until the flower starts dropping pollen.

2. Cut the upper half of the flower/pollen into a paper grocery bag. Usually most of the male flowers are on the upper end of the inflorescence. Its usually easy to see where the male flowers start to thin out and the females start to become thick. I'm definitely not familiar with every syagrus or butia, but generally this is how their inflorescences are set up.

3. If possible, place the paper bag in a dry warm spot, under 100F, probably next to a sunny window in an air conditioned house, and let the pollen slowly dry for a day or two. Merrill Wilcox had a drying oven that kept the pollen, I believe, around 90 or 95F. Most of us do not have access to this.

4. At this point, Merrill would use a mechanical sifter to seperate out the maximum amount of pollen from the flowers/stems/other debris. He would then ad some silica drying crystals and put it in a tupperware and keep it in the fridge. Probably fine to just add the silica crystals to the paper bag and ship the pollen off.

5. Most folks cut the sifted pollen with talc powder. The few times that I've hybridized I used an eye dropper to disperse the "cut" pollen on to the emasculated and receptive female flowers. Keep the hybridized flowers in a garbage bag or pillowcase or something to keep pollenators from accessing your flowers. Usually pollenated the receptive flowers 3 or 4 times over the few days that the female flowers are receptive.

There are a couple threads on this forum detailing this.

The process is actually very simple if you're careful. I'm sure other folks have more elaborate and efficient ways of doing it but this way works pretty well.

Let me know if you're interested and we can work something out.

Tank, thanks for the instructions, the other thread you mentioned went into detail concerning the female flower but almost nothing concerning pollen collection. I printed it out and will add to my paper copy of the other thread. May give it a shot. I really would like to start backcrossing my mules with queen pollen. To get something of a colder hardy queen lookalike.

How long you reckon the pollen would stay good in the fridge or freezer?

I think Merrill mentioned up to a year. I've never kept in the fridge for more than 3 or 4 months. Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in. I think Merrill and one or more of his friends wrote a paper with the general instructions that he used. It may be floating around on the web. I'll look at some of my old backups to see if I have a copy of his process.

This is my 4th year in my current house and I'm hoping the few butias that I planted out will start flowering soon. Its really nice to have smaller plants to work with. One of the mules I created starting flowering last year which is kinda cool.

On a side note, a couple of the coconuts that I planted down at my families house in SW FL have started flowering. Nice and short and easy to access.. Might be time to start chasing the white whale.

[Josh-O]

Its nice to see some great knowledge being shard. I'm learning something too

[tank]

Here is one of his articles. I feel like there is one that is more thorough than this one but I could not locate it. Nice picture of the receptive female flowers in this one though. Also, use Tim Hopper's method of pollinating the female flowers. It's MUCH less tedious and seems to be just as effective as the one described in this article.

http://www.plantapalm.com/vpe/horticulture/vpe_horticulture5.htm

[Alberto]

Soon I´ll have the B. eriospatha X Syagrus glaucescens seeds again . Now I have seeds of the tableland S. romanzoffiana x Syagrus comosa. My son Hendrik is an Agronomy student and I gave him 200 seeds to sell. He will receive the orders, make the envelops, ship them etc. They will be sent in a discrete bubble envelop, that doesnt rattle and registered so it can be tracked.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/44187-hybrid-seeds-paranas-tableland-s-romanzoffiana-x-syagrus-comosa/

[buffy]

Alberto: Mine suffered four nights in the mid-20s with heavy frost in November with no damage. That's about as cold as I'll let it go unprotected at this time, but encouraging, nonetheless.

[Alberto]

Hi Buffy! Yes that´s certainly encouraging! I think that the cytoplasmatic inheritance (female´s cell structure) is an important factor in the cold hardiness. When palms mature cold hardiness also improves.