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Sabal causiarum 'Lisa'


Alicehunter2000
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I'm calling out Tom GA to provide more photographic evidence of this palms existence. Much like the BigFoot of the Northwest, or the Loch Ness Monster; Sabal causiarum 'Lisa' seems like it might be a hoax to lure tourists to the Bamboo Farm in Georgia. Just like those 'monsters', all we have is one grainy photo as "proof" of this Monster Palm's existence. Here it is.........

post-97-0-82555800-1398991111_thumb.jpg

So is it real....or an elaborate prank?

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David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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I'm calling out Tom GA to provide more photographic evidence of this palms existence. Much like the BigFoot of the Northwest, or the Loch Ness Monster; Sabal causiarum 'Lisa' seems like it might be a hoax to lure tourists to the Bamboo Farm in Georgia. Just like those 'monsters', all we have is one grainy photo as "proof" of this Monster Palm's existence. Here it is.........

attachicon.gifSabal lisa causiarum.jpg

So is it real....or an elaborate prank?

Actually, that photo looks more like Sabal causiarum 'Ugly'

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In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Knowing the crowd on this forum, if such a palm truly existed - we would have been all over it.

My vote is - HOAX :bemused:

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Coral Gables, FL 8 miles North of Fairchild USDA Zone 10B

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Not a hoax at all. Tom collected the seed and I grew them up to a 3 gal. size and then we planted them out in July, 2004 (year may be wrong).

Here are some photos showing the progress. Palm to Tom's right is the S. caus. 'Lisoid' and then one to his left is one that developed normally. I wish I had dated these pictures when I took them.

DSCN0626.jpg

Here is the planting about two years after it was put in without Tom in the picture. S. causiarum's in the rear:

DSCN0625.jpg

Close up of the Lisoid S. causiarum:

DSCN0628.jpg

This photo is of the same palm in 2012 (yippee, I dated a photo). Notice the small diameter of the trunk. The S. causiarum (not shown) next to it has a massive trunk with characteristic ligules.

DSC_0029_zps3dc42dec.jpg

The whole Sabal area at the Bamboo Farm in 2012:

DSC_0015_zpsc72c9acb.jpg

I remember talking to Dr. Kyle Brown at his house one time and he had a similar experience with Sabal seed germinating and being remarkably different from the parent. I think that Sabals have some frisky genes!

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Joseph C. Le Vert

Augusta, GA

USA

Zone 8

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By the way, one of the other Lisoid types throws variegated leaves every once in a while (wide cream stripes). It is right next to the ones in the photos, but I'll have to look for a photo of it.

Joseph C. Le Vert

Augusta, GA

USA

Zone 8

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Any more recent photo's would be great. ....I'm still not convinced...lol....but in all sincerity.....why would it have a thinner trunk? What makes Lisoid different from Lisa?

Does Lisoid produce viable seed? Do the seed come up true? So many questions. ...but what I find almost more amazing than the palm itself, is the lack of awareness that people here on Palmtalk have about it.....now that is amazing!

I feel kind of like Christopher Columbus. ...I "discovered" a new cultivar ( for Palmtalk)..even though you Indians ( Tom GA and JLeVert) have been there since the beginning.

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David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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'Lisoid' is my name for it. The name has no botanical or horticultural merit at all. I have no idea why the trunk is so thin. So far it hasn't had any seed, so who knows what the seed would produce? It is an interesting looking palm....not exactly beautiful to me, but maybe it will improve with age when the trunk is more prominent.

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Joseph C. Le Vert

Augusta, GA

USA

Zone 8

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Here is a picture of one of the S. causiarum from the same batch of seed. Notice the papery ligules characteristic of S. causiarum.

DSC_0074.jpg

Another 'Lisoid' picture with the 'normal' S. causiarum to its left and a S. minor at the lower right. I wish I had a date for this picture, but I'm guessing 2009 or maybe a year earlier.

DSC_0039.jpg

That variegated one that I mentioned earlier is back and slightly to the right of the front Lisoid. I keep looking through old files of pictures and finding things. I'll post any others as they 'appear'.

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Joseph C. Le Vert

Augusta, GA

USA

Zone 8

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OK, I take back the ugly comment and ditto the "stunning" comment above. Congrats on having such a unique plant.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Lisoid, you're stunning! :wub2: I love you!

Shirleypt.png

There are several mature Wodyetia bifurcata in my neighborhood--that helps determine my zone, right? :blink:

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I have to say it is not of causiarum parentage based on the trunk size and lack of ligules, but I have never seen a 'lisa' that was not admirable.

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What are the odds that you pick up seeds below a Sabal causiarum and up pops a Sabal palmetto "Lisa" ....... must be a better chance to win the lottery.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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When they started growing, the leaves were different early on. I thought that maybe a little RoundUp had drifted over toward the seedlings. Both had fused leaflets and one had the occasional variegation. But they never grew out of their weirdness and you see the results. I wish they would bloom. Maybe we have something new and interesting here.

I've never seen a Sabal 'Lisa' up close and personal, but from the pictures I've seen, the trunks looked like normal Sabal palmetto.

Any observations from anybody on the trunk size?

Joseph C. Le Vert

Augusta, GA

USA

Zone 8

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Is it possible that some of the seeds were mixed up with sabal Lisa? Who or what was your seed source?

Los Angeles, CA and Myrtle Beach, SC.

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Joseph, I can't see this coming from a regular Causiarum. The thin trunk doesn't fit. Causiarum also loses the boots fairly fast--yours looks to be holding like a palmetto does. In any event, it is a 'lisa' and that is about as nice a palm as you can grow outside!

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Seed source was an S. causiarum in Tampa or on the Univ. or Florida campus in Gainesville. The palm had a monster trunk and normal causiarum leaves. All the seeds were grown in a community pot. I have never seen or grown (to my knowledge) an S. 'Lisa'. My only experience of them is from pictures and advertisements. As I posted earlier, Sabal (like Butia) seems to have some friskiness in the gene department and there are occasional oddities that appear. Dr. Kyle Brown has had the same experience with very dwarf Sabals coming from monster Sabals. I plead ignorance to the cause of all this. It is a cool palm whatever it is and wherever it came from.

Joseph C. Le Vert

Augusta, GA

USA

Zone 8

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I just wanted to say this is an awesome looking palm!

Also, hopefully you'll find this useful; if you're using Windows you can right-click on a file, select "properties" and it will tell you the date the file was created and last saved. Not much help for non-digital photographs but might provide a clue for the dates of some of your pictures.

Thanks for posting this info, and being involved with creating a public garden to display a great variety of palms.

DSC_0029_zps3dc42dec.jpg

Woodville, FL

zone 8b

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Thanks, Redbeard. I'll try clicking around and getting some dates on those pictures.

Joseph C. Le Vert

Augusta, GA

USA

Zone 8

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Sabal Lisa is named for the wife of the man who discovered it not so many years ago.

I am not totally surprised that the Lisa trait may also occur in other Sabal species. As many species are hard to tell apart in the first place they must be closely related. The fused leaf mutation may show up on their genomes as well as on palmetto. Just because no one has stumbled across other Sabal "Lisoids" doesn't mean they don't exist. Sabal Lisas have cropped up all over FL. I have two on my property I grew from seeds I collected.

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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Don't mean to hi-jack a super awesome! thread, but not too long ago while searching for palm info, I came across a photo of a Chamaerops humilis that maybe(---?) has a little Lisa going on…not that it is…..it's just that the one behind it looks normal.

Shirleypt.png

There are several mature Wodyetia bifurcata in my neighborhood--that helps determine my zone, right? :blink:

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It's some kind of genetic mutation. I have a Wag that is showing the same signs. Has been for as long as I've had it.

I know one of Dick Douglas' Ch, humilis had a similar trait. It was called "the freak". Perhaps someone has a picture of it....

Oakley, California

55 Miles E-NE of San Francisco, CA

Solid zone 9, I can expect at least one night in the mid to low twenties every year.

Hot, dry summers. Cold, wet winters.

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Whatever it is, it's beautiful. I've seen a similar mutation in a C. Humilus before, however it looked ugly and weedy. The fronds were dwarfed and fused together. It looked like blades of grass coming out of a trunk.

Los Angeles, CA and Myrtle Beach, SC.

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Dick Douglas had a freak Chamaerops that he called 'mutant', but that palm has quite different leaflets.

Numerous gardeners in the NorCal area have progeny from this palm. It is self-fertile, and the seedlings come true to the mother plant.

It always elicts a strong response, either positive or negative ! :)

post-31-0-97255000-1399581470_thumb.jpg

post-31-0-22015100-1399581488_thumb.jpg

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San Francisco, California

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That looks exactly like the Chamaerops I saw. I think it's ugly, but some people find beauty in it I suppose.

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Los Angeles, CA and Myrtle Beach, SC.

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Dick tried to give me one of these, it was difficult to decline in a diplomatic manner. I would never plant this in my garden. :sick:

San Francisco, California

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'd take one if offered. But I have a soft spot for plants other people think are ugly.

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  • Upvote 1

Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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It kind of looks like a succulent, or a cactus of some sort, sorta.

Agreed, i think it's pretty cool looking. Ha, too bad nobody sells these our I'd buy one!

Blake

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There's are really nice 12-15' C.humilus by my house that looks just like this 'Lisa' look you're talking about. It's always stood out to me but I love never heard that term before. I'll have to swing by and snap a picture for you guys.

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Jerod

SurfCityPalms.com

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There's are really nice 12-15' C.humilus by my house that looks just like this 'Lisa' look you're talking about. It's always stood out to me but I love never heard that term before. I'll have to swing by and snap a picture for you guys.

'Vulcano' maybe?

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And seeds if possible please!

There's are really nice 12-15' C.humilus by my house that looks just like this 'Lisa' look you're talking about. It's always stood out to me but I love never heard that term before. I'll have to swing by and snap a picture for you guys.

Blake

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Agreed, i think it's pretty cool looking. Ha, too bad nobody sells these our I'd buy one!

Me too : )

And seeds if possible please!

2nd

Edited by fr8train
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I just wanted to say this is an awesome looking palm!

Also, hopefully you'll find this useful; if you're using Windows you can right-click on a file, select "properties" and it will tell you the date the file was created and last saved. Not much help for non-digital photographs but might provide a clue for the dates of some of your pictures.

Thanks for posting this info, and being involved with creating a public garden to display a great variety of palms.

DSC_0029_zps3dc42dec.jpg

These don't make viable "true" seed by chance to they? I thought I remember them typically being created from mutations in Sabal palmetto offspring.

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No seeds have been produced yet. It remains to be seen what these tree's seeds will produce. It should be easy enough to tell whether they are actually S. palmetto or S. causiarum offspring. Just plant a few, say 125 miles north of Savannah, and see what the foliage does below 15F. If it is S. causiarum it will start burning from the outer edge in. S. palmetto would have no damage at that temperature.

Joseph C. Le Vert

Augusta, GA

USA

Zone 8

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I think it is possible that Sabal Lisa is mutation which creates some sort of metabolic disorder in the palm. This results in both the fusion of leaflets and could create a smaller trunk in diameter. There are certainly parallels in human diseases such as those that cause morbid obesity at one end of the scale and severe thiness on the other. Cystic fibrosis comes to mind as I had a great friend die from it at the age of 29 and he could eat 5000 calories a day and not ever weigh more that 120 pounds.

patrick

Bonita, California (San Diego)

Zone 10B

10 Year Low of 29 degrees

6 Miles from San Diego Bay

Mild winters, somewhat warm summers

10 Miles North of Mexico/USA Border

1 acre

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