Best palms for temperate area

[nomolos]

These are my picks

Bangalow

Kentia

Hedyscepe Canterburyana

Dypsis Decipiens

Butia capita or eriospatha

caryota mitis and urens

livistonia Chinensis

Arenga engleri

Ceroxlyn

parajubea

Queen palm

Eutrepe edulis

Howea belmoreana

Oraiopsis appendiculata

Rhapalostylis

Arenga Pinnata

Brahea armata + edulis

Chambeyronia macrocarpa

Jub

Crystostachys renda(just making sure your concentrating)

Phoenix rupicola

Majestic palm or Ravenea glauca

sabal uresana

Washington palm

Are there many I missed. Just trying to go for the reliably hardy ones.

Cheers

Sol

[The Germinator]

You hit most of the ones I have in the ground, ut heres a couple;

Foxtail

Peach Creek King

Canary Date

Senagal Date

Cheap Dates

Hell!, Most all dates

Triangle

[Bennz]

while it obviously depends on definition of 'temperate', I would add Dypsis onilahensis and baronii for that cane-palm look. And of course some Roystonea and Cocos to act as tall canopy for those Crystostachys renda.

[Zac in NC]

Wow, if thats temperate, then what I am growing must be sub-arctic. Sabals(some) and Trachies and Rhapidophyllum and Serenoa. Chamaerhops and Butia are marginal. I'd love to try Brahea moorei in my garden though. (if you can't tell, I am being just a bit sarcastic)

Zac

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Many of the Chamaedorea's grow well in a temperate climate

regards

colin

[tim_brissy_13]

Hi Sol,

Are you still in Tassie?  If so, most of those should do well there, although I'd be surprised if Caryota mitis grew, they struggle in Adelaide and don't grow in Melbourne.  Along with Ben and Colin's suggestions, Dypsis albofarinosa, Linospadix, Laccospadix and Lytocaryum should do well.

[nomolos]

(tim_brissy_13 @ Feb. 25 2007,06:19)

QUOTE

Hi Sol,

Are you still in Tassie?  If so, most of those should do well there, although I'd be surprised if Caryota mitis grew, they struggle in Adelaide and don't grow in Melbourne.  Along with Ben and Colin's suggestions, Dypsis albofarinosa, Linospadix, Laccospadix and Lytocaryum should do well.

Hi Tim Thanks for that

Still in Tas

Yes I remember you telling me about your experience Caryota Mitis.

I ordered this plus a few others palms from Qld about 4 yrs ago and this is the only one still in existence. In fact its thriving, I even took it out of the ground when I moved about a year and a half ago and it didn't worry it. It may be just a tough one?  I'll post a pic in a few days.

Ps Is Jo and Adam still on the board?

Cheers

[BobbyinNY]

I'm curious to know what the definition of Temperate is....    I'm a zone 7a (well this year, 7b so far), and the only palms that I know for a fact will survive here without protection is Rhapidophyllum hystrix, maybe Trachy...

[nomolos]

(BobbyinNY @ Feb. 25 2007,22:18)

QUOTE

I'm curious to know what the definition of Temperate is....    I'm a zone 7a (well this year, 7b so far), and the only palms that I know for a fact will survive here without protection is Rhapidophyllum hystrix, maybe Trachy...

Say zone 9

[Jim in Los Altos]

(nomolos @ Feb. 25 2007,19:50)

QUOTE

Say zone 9

I'm in zone 9b (10a most winters) and many of the palms listed on this thread were heavily damaged this winter such as Bangalows, Howeas, Caryotas, Chambeyronias, etc. And forget about Foxtails. They've totally wimpy to anything under 30F (-1C). At 26F (-1C) this colder than usual winter here , it still qualifies as 9b. I love pushing the envelope but when it gets cold like this winter it's not fun having to cut off nearly every leaf on many palms and not fun to look at either.      

[MattyB]

I think you've just about got it for zone 9.

I'd add a few maybes like:

Pseudophoenix sargentii

Jubeopsis caffra

Kentiopsis oliviformis

....slow, but just might work

[Alicehunter2000]

C. microspadix

S. repens (silver or green)

Bismarkia

[Daryl]

Sol, it never ceases to amaze me what grows down in Hobart, considering it is about the same latitude as New York!

Calamus muelleri would be worth a try...

Daryl

[nomolos]

Thanks Darryl I never thought of calamus

Rome is also the same latitude, and we have the warm pacific currents

Hobart while a lot further south is much better than say  Canberra or even Mt Dandenong in Melbourne for palm growing

I also think if palma are grown from seed they are generally hardier than imported palms

[BobbyinNY]

Say zone 9

See, now I'm totally confused........ I've always thought that 9a thru 10a was SubTropical.... I've been told that zone 7 and 8 are considered Temperate....

[John Case]

(BobbyinNY @ Feb. 26 2007,06:49)

QUOTE

Say zone 9

See, now I'm totally confused........ I've always thought that 9a thru 10a was SubTropical.... I've been told that zone 7 and 8 are considered Temperate....

Most people, in this area at least, consider the San Franicso Bay Area and the LA basin to be a 'Mediterranean' climate......

so.......is this a temperate or sub-tropical? It depends. During the summers in the inland areas it is hot and dry..very Med in feel. Spring and Fall, perhaps sub-tropical..cool and wet in theSpring, warm and dry in the fall.

Winter is the wild card here. It is the most variable season....from T-shirt and shorts in December to parkas in the next week (or Day).

9a,b, 10a, b, are not specific enough to clissify what we are. The Western Garden Book has many more classifications for California....and even then there are problems.

I'm certain that each area of the country has its own climatic issues......

[BobbyinNY]

Most people, in this area at least, consider the San Franicso Bay Area and the LA basin to be a 'Mediterranean' climate......

so.......is this a temperate or sub-tropical? It depends. During the summers in the inland areas it is hot and dry..very Med in feel. Spring and Fall, perhaps sub-tropical..cool and wet in theSpring, warm and dry in the fall.

Winter is the wild card here. It is the most variable season....from T-shirt and shorts in December to parkas in the next week (or Day).

9a,b, 10a, b, are not specific enough to clissify what we are. The Western Garden Book has many more classifications for California....and even then there are problems.

I'm certain that each area of the country has its own climatic issues.....

That's very interesting, John.... So I guess temperate would kinda mean that there isn't much of a fluctuation in Temperature throughout all the seasons - which I guess would kinda describe the SF Bay area with it's kind of springlike temps all year long (of course warmer in summer, cooler in winter).

Then I guess we couldn't be temperate, because we can get really hot in the summer (over 100f at times), and really cold in the winter (below 10f), but even if you look at the difference in the averages for my area (85f/70f-summer, 40f/27f-winter) that's still a big spread.

[Bennz]

(BobbyinNY @ Feb. 26 2007,09:49)

QUOTE

Say zone 9

See, now I'm totally confused........ I've always thought that 9a thru 10a was SubTropical.... I've been told that zone 7 and 8 are considered Temperate....

Hi Bobby,

We have cross-cultural problems here. Temperate in Australasia (Aussie/NZ) is anything colder than subtropical. For us it usually is related to mean air temp and latitude, rather than min. temps. For example, in Australia some of the most reliably frost areas (zone 11) are in the extreme southern parts of coastal  Victoria at about lat. 38S. But nobody would call it subtropical there! By contrast, even in tropical latitudes you only need to go a comparatively short distance from the coast to see some pretty nasty winter frosts (zone 9), in otherwise tropical conditions.

I am at 39.5S, and have seen frost at this house twice in my 36 years of living here. And 'frost' in this context means crawling around on my knees and identifying a small patch of ice on grass, maybe coin-sized. I'm reliable zone 10, some small areas of zone 11. But my mean annual air temp is only 15C, so I'm very much temperate, not subtropical.

If it helps, we have problems ubnderstanding what you northern hemisphere people are talking about too sometimes!

Ben

[BobbyinNY]

We have cross-cultural problems here. Temperate in Australasia (Aussie/NZ) is anything colder than subtropical. For us it usually is related to mean air temp and latitude

That's kinda what I thought it meant here too.....  which is why I've always known my area to be considered "Warm Temperate"... now maybe there isn't an exact definition of what Temperate is to a standard..

If it helps, we have problems ubnderstanding what you northern hemisphere people are talking about too sometimes!

 I'll never get used to someone talking about winter in July..lol

[NBTX11]

(Bennz @ Feb. 26 2007,15:05)

QUOTE

(BobbyinNY @ Feb. 26 2007,09:49)

QUOTE

Say zone 9

See, now I'm totally confused........ I've always thought that 9a thru 10a was SubTropical.... I've been told that zone 7 and 8 are considered Temperate....

Hi Bobby,

We have cross-cultural problems here. Temperate in Australasia (Aussie/NZ) is anything colder than subtropical. For us it usually is related to mean air temp and latitude, rather than min. temps. For example, in Australia some of the most reliably frost areas (zone 11) are in the extreme southern parts of coastal  Victoria at about lat. 38S. But nobody would call it subtropical there! By contrast, even in tropical latitudes you only need to go a comparatively short distance from the coast to see some pretty nasty winter frosts (zone 9), in otherwise tropical conditions.

I am at 39.5S, and have seen frost at this house twice in my 36 years of living here. And 'frost' in this context means crawling around on my knees and identifying a small patch of ice on grass, maybe coin-sized. I'm reliable zone 10, some small areas of zone 11. But my mean annual air temp is only 15C, so I'm very much temperate, not subtropical.

If it helps, we have problems ubnderstanding what you northern hemisphere people are talking about too sometimes!

Ben

Bobby, zone 9 in the southern US is subtropical, because that area is usually around the gulf coast for the most part.

Bennz,

I am at 29N, and I see frost every year.  But I also see extreme heat during a very long hot humid summer (basically April through Oct at least).  We also get winter time heat.  It can by 30C in the midde of winter (or can get below 0C/32F).

[nomolos]

Bobby I think extremes of temperature are hard on palms, here in Hobart our extreme minimum was -2.8 celsius approx in the 1980s. Generally about one to 2 degrees is about as low as it goes. Our winters are cool without too much fluctuation between max an min. I think when say a king palm gets temps between 4 celsius and 13 celsius during winter - the ocaasional drop to zero does not worry them. Also they develop a cold tolerance as they acclimatise.

[Kathy]

We have cross-cultural problems here. Temperate in Australasia (Aussie/NZ) is anything colder than subtropical. For us it usually is related to mean air temp and latitude

It's all very confusing, but it looks like it is really about latitude, and here's what one website had to say (I believe this is from Wikipedia on another site:)

"In geography, temperate latitudes of the globe lie between the tropics and the polar circles. The changes in these regions between summer and winter are generally subtle, warm or cool, rather than extreme, burning hot or freezing cold. However, a temperate climate can have very unpredictable weather. One day it may be sunny, the next it may be raining, and after that it may be cloudy. These erratic weather patterns occur in summer as well as winter.

The north temperate zone extends from the Tropic of Cancer at about 23.5 degrees north latitude to the Arctic Circle at about 66.5 degrees north latitude. The south temperate zone extends from the Tropic of Capricorn at about 23.5 degrees south latitude to the Antarctic Circle at about 66.5 degrees south latitude.

Within these borders there are many individual climate types, which are generally grouped into two categories: continental and maritime....."

It continues with Aristotle's input:

"The idea of a temperate "zone" was first hypothesized by the ancient Greek scholar Aristotle. He said that the earth was divided into three types of climatic zones, based on their distance from the equator.

Thinking that the area near the equator was too hot for habitation, Aristotle dubbed the region around the equator (from 23.5° N to 23.5° S) as the "Torrid Zone." He reasoned that from the Arctic Circle to the pole was permanently frozen. He called this uninhabitable zone the "Frigid Zone." The only area that Aristotle believed was livable was the "Temperate Zone", lying between the "Frigid Zone" and the "Torrid Zone". One of the reasons Aristotle believed that the Temperate Zone was the best for life could come from the fact that he lived in that zone.

As knowledge of the earth's geography improved a second "Frigid Zone" was discovered south of the equator around the Antarctic and a second "Temperate Zone" was discovered south of the equator."

[BobbyinNY]

Very Interesting, Kathy...... I'll take the "torrid" zone over the "Frigid" zone anyday , but for now I guess I'll just settle for Temperate.

[Gaston in Argentina]

Parajubaeas, all.-

Gaston, AR

[ron@springhammock]

I like the terms semitropical for the gulf coast climate and subtropical for the west coast climate.  Semitropical better defines the fact that we have true low tropical weather for most of the year but than we switch to a temperate climate for the winter with definite freezes.  Subtropical better defines the almost tropical climate of the West Coast, with cooler temps but only moderately varying temperatures (most of the time).  

Here's my zone 9 list.

Acoelorrhaphe wrightii

Acrocomia aculeata

Acrocomia totai

Allagoptera arenaria

Archontophoenix sp.

Areca triandra  

Arenga australasica

Arenga engleri

Arenga micrantha

Bactris mexicana 01(4’)- no damage

Bismarckia nobilis (blue form)

Most Brahea sp.

Most Butia sp.

Calamus caryotoides

Most Chamaedorea sp.

Chuniophoenix hainanensis

Chuniophoenix nana

Coccothrinax argentata

Coccothrinax crinata  

Copernicia alba

Copernicia macroglossa

Dypsis baronii  

Dypsis decipiens

Gastrococos crispa

Geonoma schottiana

Hyphaene coriacea

Jubaea chilensis

Jubaeopsis caffra

Licuala spinosa

Most Livisitona sp.

Nannorhops ritchiana

Most Phoenix sp.

Plectocomia himalayana

Pseudophoenix sargentii

Ravenea glauca  

Ravenea rivularis

Ravenea xerophylla

Most Rhapis sp.

Most Sabal sp.

Serenoa repens

Syagrus romanzoffiana

Thrinax morrisii

Trachycarpus sp.

Trithrinax sp.

Wallichia densiflora

Wallichia disticha

Washingtonia sp.

[richnorm]

A few of the pritchardias may be worth a try eg beccariana, hillebrandii, minor.    Can't remember if you had Geonoma undata either.  Dypsis ambositrae sails through the Auckland winter and keeps growing..

[sebastian]

Heres a good list, that was put together by some of the southern posting palm growers.

http://www.mtechsystems.com/palms/melbpalms.htm

[SunnyFl]

Ron, thanks for posting your zone 9 list.  I was glad to see A. triandra on it.  It's a lovely palm for a shady spot.

I notice you listed D. baronnii - would you also include the onilahensis, which I thought was about the same in its requirements.  It's a stunning palm, but quite slow.

I wish we could see more of these palms in cultivation, but a few excellent selections are so hard to find in FL - and two are even FL natives!  With all the rows of exotic palms in the stores - you'd think they could find some room for our own C. argentata and T. morrissii - two beautiful palms!

Raveneas are wonderful additions to the zone 9 list - and glauca is probably a better choice than rivularis, since its water needs are so much lower.  It's perfect for a xeriscaped garden..... 

But just try finding it in FL!  

[nomolos]

Tim here is my Cayota Mitis from about two years ago will repost another pic soon

Here is a kentia growing in Hobart

Here is a palm I photographed today, I'm guessing a bangalow

[John Case]

(BobbyinNY @ Feb. 26 2007,10:52)

QUOTE

Most people, in this area at least, consider the San Franicso Bay Area and the LA basin to be a 'Mediterranean' climate......

so.......is this a temperate or sub-tropical? It depends. During the summers in the inland areas it is hot and dry..very Med in feel. Spring and Fall, perhaps sub-tropical..cool and wet in theSpring, warm and dry in the fall.

Winter is the wild card here. It is the most variable season....from T-shirt and shorts in December to parkas in the next week (or Day).

9a,b, 10a, b, are not specific enough to clissify what we are. The Western Garden Book has many more classifications for California....and even then there are problems.

I'm certain that each area of the country has its own climatic issues.....

That's very interesting, John.... So I guess temperate would kinda mean that there isn't much of a fluctuation in Temperature throughout all the seasons - which I guess would kinda describe the SF Bay area with it's kind of springlike temps all year long (of course warmer in summer, cooler in winter).

Then I guess we couldn't be temperate, because we can get really hot in the summer (over 100f at times), and really cold in the winter (below 10f), but even if you look at the difference in the averages for my area (85f/70f-summer, 40f/27f-winter) that's still a big spread.

Bobby,

On reflection, it appears that a Mediterranean climate requires a big marine influence, which we have in California (coast) when the wind blows correctly.

Where I live (and Kathy, and Patrick), we get the marine influence most of the time. However, when that influence breaks down we bake in the summer (last summer 116 degrees) and freeze in the winter.

Nearer the coast (Dick, for example) less of a fluctuation, on the coast, even less.

Hope this helps,

[Kathryn]

I summarized some climate information from Wikipedia and posted it in the weather/climate forum.

Using the terms tropical, subtropical and temperate are just as confusing as the terms frost and freeze - they don't necessarily have the same meaning to everyone.

In the Wikipedia information, New Orleans is considered subtropical. The winter temperature doesn’t normally go below 30°F (-1°C), but sometimes drops into the low 20’s (-5°C). I think the last time we got down to 22°F was in January 2002. Since then we haven’t gotten below 28°F (-2°C) and this winter we got down to 30 or 32°F about five nights throughout the winter.

In New Orleans we don’t have dry and rainy seasons as in south Florida. We get about 65 inches (165 cm) spread evenly throughout the year. My climate is very similar to John and Faith’s in Myakka. I can still hear John saying “Kate, you got this palm at your place? It took 22°F here so you need to plant it”, as we walked around his place and then he loaded me up with many great palms to take home.

When referring to climates, I find it’s best to use actual data rather than the terms subtropical or USDA Zone 9.

Kathryn

[ron@springhammock]

(SunnyFl @ Feb. 28 2007,07:36)

QUOTE

Ron, thanks for posting your zone 9 list.  I was glad to see A. triandra on it.  It's a lovely palm for a shady spot.

I notice you listed D. baronnii - would you also include the onilahensis, which I thought was about the same in its requirements.  It's a stunning palm, but quite slow.

I wish we could see more of these palms in cultivation, but a few excellent selections are so hard to find in FL - and two are even FL natives!  With all the rows of exotic palms in the stores - you'd think they could find some room for our own C. argentata and T. morrissii - two beautiful palms!

Raveneas are wonderful additions to the zone 9 list - and glauca is probably a better choice than rivularis, since its water needs are so much lower.  It's perfect for a xeriscaped garden..... 

But just try finding it in FL!  

I do have a nice A. triandra in the shade.  A while back I posted a picture of them being sold at Walmart, dirt cheap.  Now I wish I bought some.

Several years back after a hard freeze I noticed that Leu Garden's D. onilahensis didn't do so well, while their D. baronnii had no problem.  They actually cut the D. onilahesis well into the crown to remove the damaged tissue; leaving just a stump.  It has recovered well since, but considering that several of their other Dypsis palms showed no damage, I didn't feel very confident about its freeze hardiness.  I do have a D. onilahensis in a large pot.  I've tried D. baronnii several times, and they seem to rot away on me, but if I could keep one alive, I don't think the typical lows around here would bother them.

I planted several R. rivularis along a mucky stream bed I have behind my house and in that type of environment they are stunning.

As for native palms, they are by far the most numerous palm on my property, namely Serenoa repens but also several Sabals and Rhapidophyllums.  I would like to find some additional shades of Serenoa repens to contrast with my native greens.  I'm also working on adding several south florida natives.

[Tyrone]

Most of the coastal area of Southern Australia has very mild minimum temperatures due to the maritime influence as already mentioned. When considering palms to grow there the minimum temp is not the defining reason why a palm will or will not grow there. It's the amount of winter and in some cases summer degree hours that can be generated that makes the difference.

A case in point is Albany in SW OZ at about 35.5S. It has a very strong maritime climate and will not normally drop below 2C in winter, but for most of the winter months it won't get above 15-16C, and you can almost forget a 20C day until well into spring. By just looking at min temps one could assume that with a bit of protection you could grow Areca catechu down there, but there is nowhere near the amount of growth degrees down there to kick it along, so it's impossible to grow it there.

I think the US is a different situation because the determining factor is the absolute minimum temps encountered, so zones are used extensively. The US seems to have that "continental" influence which drops the temps way down at times in places like Florida which is quite warm if you look at average temps. Here in OZ, US zones have very little relevance.

Now when considering temperate, subtropical and Mediteranean climates.

Mediteranean climates can encompass both subtropical and temperate climate zones. Mediteranean climates typically have dry summers and wet winters, and only occur on the western side of a large land mass. So the west coast of Australia from Kalbarri down to Cape Leeuwin is medditeranean, but the subtropics end just south of Perth. The warm temperate zone starts at this point. The same is true in the US with California being Mediteranean, but subtropical from around San Diego south into Mexico, and north from San Diego being warm temperate. A similar area exists on the western coast of South Africa and of course in the Mediteranean.

As far as "subtropical" is concerned some consider this to be where the average max temps in winter do not drop below 18C. So Perth on the west and Port Macquarie in the east which are both around 32S mark the end of the sub tropics.

regards

Tyrone

[Tyrone]

Sol,

I'm totally amazed with what you can grow down there. Keep us all posted with how your garden progresses and keep trying new things.

regards

Tyrone

[Randy]

I would vote for roystonea regia and wodyetia...

[NBTX11]

(Tyrone @ Mar. 02 2007,23:12)

QUOTE

As far as "subtropical" is concerned some consider this to be where the average max temps in winter do not drop below 18C. So Perth on the west and Port Macquarie in the east which are both around 32S mark the end of the sub tropics.

There are large areas of the US where the winter max never drops below 18C (around 64F).  This applies to basically ALL of Florida, including north Florida, the Southern half of Texas and a very large area of California.  Not to mention parts of Arizona, and probably areas immediately along the gulf coast, such as Louisiana (New Orleans).  So according to that method, there is a huge area of the US that is subtropical.  Many of those same areas can and do see an occasional freeze though.

[Tyrone]

(syersj @ Mar. 03 2007,14:47)

QUOTE

(Tyrone @ Mar. 02 2007,23:12)

QUOTE

As far as "subtropical" is concerned some consider this to be where the average max temps in winter do not drop below 18C. So Perth on the west and Port Macquarie in the east which are both around 32S mark the end of the sub tropics.

There are large areas of the US where the winter max never drops below 18C (around 64F).  This applies to basically ALL of Florida, including north Florida, the Southern half of Texas and a very large area of California.  Not to mention parts of Arizona, and probably areas immediately along the gulf coast, such as Louisiana (New Orleans).  So according to that method, there is a huge area of the US that is subtropical.  Many of those same areas can and do see an occasional freeze though.

Yes, I would consider quite a large part of southern USA would fit the technical subtropical definition. Subtropical climates can get light frosts, that's not unusual.

regards

Tyrone

[Tyrone]

Sol, Have you ever tried Pinanga coronata. I'm totally amazed how this one performs for me. Although I'm a lot warmer than you, with a bit of protection against a north facing wall and a wind break to block cold winds it may just grow for you. You could probably get it to grow in full sun too, as you never get really hot. This will help you keep the winter soil temps up.

Also were you growing a Licuala ramsayi down there? If so, how is it going? I would say that Pinanga coronata and Licuala ramsayi would have the same cold tolerance and warmth needs.

Maybe these are a little tropical, but you've already amazed me with what you're growing now.

regards

Tyrone

[nomolos]

Hi tyrone

Thanks for the suggestions

I moved the Licuala into a pot as was moving house, I forgot to water it and it perished.

Will start another one however. I'll look into the pinanga

Sol

[tim_brissy_13]

Sol, at that size, its hard to tell what fishtail you have.  If its not clumping yet, it may be urens, himalayana or gigas/obtusa, and I wouldn't be surprised if these grew down there.  If you're into Calamus, I'm sure a few would grow.  muellerii and caryotoides for sure, possible moti and australis.