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Polar Vortex vs. Large Palms in Zone 9a


Alicehunter2000

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Tom I'm taking the same approach. All your suggestions are spot on we are just a half zone apart. In your opinion what 9b palms would you try if you were me.

Here are three L. decora 10 ft. clear trunk.....all the damage was from transplant. ...no damage from cold....these are winner's.attachicon.gif20140116_083328.jpgattachicon.gif20140116_083355.jpgattachicon.gif20140116_083404.jpg

L Decora will get big crowns and look great, my favorite livistona. If I am growing in your area I'd "grow in" the cold hardy palms you have so that the crowns are almost touching where possible, let them expand for a year or two. At the same time, I would put more cold hardy smaller ones in around the perimeter, especially the direction where the coldest cold comes from. While doing this, I would identify warm areas closer to the house or between the house and your cold hardy palms with the eye that you could heat the area in a pinch without worrying about wind blowing all the heat away. then I would look at kentiopsis oliviformis, beccariophoenix alfredii, teddy triangle, and dypsis pembana all in a area that you can heat in a pinch. these are all 9b IMO and all survived my cold event in 2010. Of these the pembana and teddy triangle are probably a little more cold tender than the other two. With a densely planted warm spot with overhead cover, you may be able to grow a nice tropical area including these palms. Also be prepared to cover them with cloth during cold snaps for a few years. I covered a small(3 gallon size) achrontophoenix alexandre triple in 2010 that surely saved them in that cold event. Now I have more overhead cover and dense plantings and they are 12-14' overall, looking great. These archies should be much more capable now of taking a radiational cold event with the buds 5-7' above ground level and they do have some live oak overhead now. If I were you, I'd think critical mass of cold hardy palms for a warm jungle, but still have an area near a stone fire pit or other heat source where all the 9b palms are planted. It will be easier to protect them if they are all proximate to each other.

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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K. Oliviformis? I would not have even considered it before now. I worry as much about frost as we can have heavy frost sometime....guess that's where the heavy canopy comes into play. Would a regular triangle be more hardy than the hybrid you mentioned?

Here is the A. wrightii ....approximately 7 ft overall. ... no damage.post-97-0-68930400-1389932525_thumb.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Tom I'm taking the same approach. All your suggestions are spot on we are just a half zone apart. In your opinion what 9b palms would you try if you were me.

Here are three L. decora 10 ft. clear trunk.....all the damage was from transplant. ...no damage from cold....these are winner's.attachicon.gif20140116_083328.jpgattachicon.gif20140116_083355.jpgattachicon.gif20140116_083404.jpg

L Decora will get big crowns and look great, my favorite livistona. If I am growing in your area I'd "grow in" the cold hardy palms you have so that the crowns are almost touching where possible, let them expand for a year or two. At the same time, I would put more cold hardy smaller ones in around the perimeter, especially the direction where the coldest cold comes from. While doing this, I would identify warm areas closer to the house or between the house and your cold hardy palms with the eye that you could heat the area in a pinch without worrying about wind blowing all the heat away. then I would look at kentiopsis oliviformis, beccariophoenix alfredii, teddy triangle, and dypsis pembana all in a area that you can heat in a pinch. these are all 9b IMO and all survived my cold event in 2010. Of these the pembana and teddy triangle are probably a little more cold tender than the other two. With a densely planted warm spot with overhead cover, you may be able to grow a nice tropical area including these palms. Also be prepared to cover them with cloth during cold snaps for a few years. I covered a small(3 gallon size) achrontophoenix alexandre triple in 2010 that surely saved them in that cold event. Now I have more overhead cover and dense plantings and they are 12-14' overall, looking great. These archies should be much more capable now of taking a radiational cold event with the buds 5-7' above ground level and they do have some live oak overhead now. If I were you, I'd think critical mass of cold hardy palms for a warm jungle, but still have an area near a stone fire pit or other heat source where all the 9b palms are planted. It will be easier to protect them if they are all proximate to each other.

L decora is solid in 9a, super solid. I am still undecided on B alfredii. I have renewed faith in D decipiens.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Ive installed some ground warmers!

Looks cool at night too...

Ive got these things spread out all over...

Halogen lamps put off the heat, these are not...

These are LED night light floods...

Kentiopsis? Hmmm. I like those palms fersum reason

;)

post-3028-0-19106100-1389960795_thumb.jp

post-3028-0-48884200-1389960868_thumb.jp

Brandon, FL

27.95°N 82.28°W (Elev. 62 ft)

Zone9 w/ canopy

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Are Kentiopsis that cold hardy? They aren't listed on the PSNCC site for Norcal so I have not tried them yet...

Ben Rogers

On the border of Concord & Clayton in the East Bay hills - Elev 387 ft 37.95 °N, 121.94 °W

My back yard weather station: http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/hdfForecast?query=37.954%2C-121.945&sp=KCACONCO37

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Ive installed some ground warmers!

Looks cool at night too...

Ive got these things spread out all over...

Halogen lamps put off the heat, these are not...

These are LED night light floods...

Kentiopsis? Hmmm. I like those palms fersum reason

;)

How much are those LED Floods running nowadays?

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Did someone say Kentiopsis oliviformis? Let me see how many I can fit in my truck....I wonder if this palm is the one Dave is looking for in his post, THE most cold hardy pinnate palm.

Yep I put in 3 of kens kentiopsis after the 2010 freeze. the first two in February 2011, and the third in august 2011. here is the before an after, first after install in feb 2011 then the jungle as it is today. David, this is my warm crown shafted area. the KO are bookended by some big royals I got cheap and there are also some achronto alexander and myolensis and dypsis in there too. the kentiopsis are the most cold hardy.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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Are Kentiopsis that cold hardy? They aren't listed on the PSNCC site for Norcal so I have not tried them yet...

Kentiopsis oliviformis are quite hardy, I ended up buying a specimen from JD Andersen that Dan kept in Murietta and survived 24F apparently without any damage. These are tough palms. Now I don't really know if they can truly withstand 24F without showing some sort of burn on the leaves. I suspect they're probably slightly more hardy than a regular king, but only slightly more.

In Northern California, I would recommend growing them to some size in a greenhouse before planting them out. They need more root mass and crown mass to be able to take our Winter chill, especially in Sunset zone 15 and colder.

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here is the porch view looking out showing more of the other plantings and how KO stand over them along with live oak.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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Queen palms are looking better than expected. They appear to have about 30 percent damage. I have learned in the past not to count my chickens before they hatch as they can show damage much later. They are about 10 ft. Clear trunk

.post-97-0-45507900-1390016476_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-03333300-1390016536_thumb.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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David,

My larger queens are just fine. It is the smaller ones that took a beating. Around the area most queens look OK, but every once in a while you see on that looks awful. I am not sure if this is genetic variance or other environmental factor or health factor.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Tom, your backyard setup looks very similar in dimension as mine. Interesting that you have some raised beds with retaining wall pavers....I was actually thinking of doing the same thing. I planted everything a little bit too high and now was thinking of putting pavers pathways through the area. Problem is that a rain would wash the soil down onto the paths.....small retaining walls would be the solution....and they create interest and dimension.

Keith, yes loving. The L. decora. ...got bunches of seedlings ready to pot up.

Ken, I'll trade you some S. Marautiformis for some...lol

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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There does seem to be a lot of variability for both queens and Washingtonia's around here as well .. just happy I seemed to have gotten a colder hardy pair.

Here is my green "S. Urseana" .....although I'm not convinced that is indeed what it is....whatever it is it got about 25 percent damage.post-97-0-98462000-1390018688_thumb.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Keith, my bad, I have CFL floods, theyre energy efficient, and put off that "bluish" LED type light... They were $6ea, vs the $15 LED version...

Trust me, theyre geewhiz. :)

Ive got olskool halogen lamps to put in on those "hard freeze" warning nights that we get every once in awhile... I reckon theyd boost up the palm survival rate a lil bit.

-Ray.

Brandon, FL

27.95°N 82.28°W (Elev. 62 ft)

Zone9 w/ canopy

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I seem to have missed out on knowing about the potential of Kentiopsis, it looks so tropical and sounds like it could be hardier than Archontophoenix. That's great news, maybe the slow growth is what has kept it out of popularity in marginal areas.

Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked.

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Keith, my bad, I have CFL floods, theyre energy efficient, and put off that "bluish" LED type light... They were $6ea, vs the $15 LED version...

Trust me, theyre geewhiz. :)

Ive got olskool halogen lamps to put in on those "hard freeze" warning nights that we get every once in awhile... I reckon theyd boost up the palm survival rate a lil bit.

-Ray.

Ah, I have CFL floods too. Last time I looked at LED floods the cost was outrageous so I was curious if you had found a deal. But after seeing your post, t I went back and re-priced the LED floods. The price is down from outrageous to high, which is a good thing. I am looking forward to the move from CFL to LED, but that may still be a couple years off, or more.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Here is my latest damage assessment.

post-1207-0-55821500-1390061475_thumb.jp

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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here is the porch view looking out showing more of the other plantings and how KO stand over them along with live oak.

Tom, is that your patio? That looks really nice and tropical!

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Tom, your backyard setup looks very similar in dimension as mine. Interesting that you have some raised beds with retaining wall pavers....I was actually thinking of doing the same thing. I planted everything a little bit too high and now was thinking of putting pavers pathways through the area. Problem is that a rain would wash the soil down onto the paths.....small retaining walls would be the solution....and they create interest and dimension.

Keith, yes loving. The L. decora. ...got bunches of seedlings ready to pot up.

Ken, I'll trade you some S. Marautiformis for some...lol

David,

the ground in my yard sloped too steeply from the fence and the yard slopes towards a pond just past the neighbor. I had a serious erosion issue and I reacted by putting the raised bed in. the bricks are only in front of the bed as that is how steep the slope is. So my plan involved lots of plantings to stop erosion. You are right though it does add dimension and I like it. One point is make sure you put some anti weed cloth behind the landscape wall to trap the soil. this way you will not lose any soil when it rains hard, works great.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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here is the porch view looking out showing more of the other plantings and how KO stand over them along with live oak.

Tom, is that your patio? That looks really nice and tropical!

thanks axel,

yeah its getting really dense back there, hard to take a pic since everything is so close. All my zone 10 stuff is back there. I have 3 species dypsis, 4 species achrontophoenix, the kentiopsis, foxtail, royals, all along the back patio in a warm spot. You really cant get a pic of it all anymore as things are kind of densely planted. there is a 12' 3 piece sliding glass door that slides away and the patio becomes part of the great room. this is where we spend all our time at home and in summer it is nice and cool with a nice heavily dappled shade atmosphere.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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As Keith said damage reveals itself slowly. Everything seams a bit more damaged t than originally thought. More leaf damage. Even P. dacts. Close by were all burned by the cold.post-97-0-98595500-1390188858_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-63013000-1390189142_thumb.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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I agree. I thought my queen was fine but two days after the cold the spear pulled. The leaves are fried but still green somehow. I threw it out...

Los Angeles, CA and Myrtle Beach, SC.

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Hope you didn't throw the queen away? They can survive a spear pull if treated with hydrogen peroxide.

Noticed the big Sabal causiarum has about 20 percent damage to the upper fronds. That sucks. It got really cold and windy....not a good combo evidently.

Good news is that the fried alba spear is still tight. Spring cannot come quickly enough.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Spears tight on even the small triangle's and majesties but they look 100 percent fried ...probably just a matter of time. One of the big queens large fronds collapsed. Even the A. wrightii is showing a little leaf damage.

29, 27, 33 are expected lows this week......insult to injury.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Yep this winter went down hill fast after the new year. :indifferent:

On a positive note that would be great to hear your triangle and majesties surviving this onslaught!

Tyler

Coastal Zone 9a

''Karma is a good girl, she just treats you exactly how you treat her"

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BTW I am thinking about planting out a Ravenea glauca this spring. I believe they are a tad more hardy that the R. rivularis.

Tyler

Coastal Zone 9a

''Karma is a good girl, she just treats you exactly how you treat her"

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I did throw it out. It's not really worth it to me to treat it when I can get another one this spring for $10 or so. It was a youngster. I did notice two larger queens on the way to campus and they are 110% fried with a few collapsed fronds. Two of my washies look better already but it's suppose to freeze again this week...

Butia, sabal, and rhapidophyllum are untouched. Livistona is a bit brown but the spears are strong.

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Los Angeles, CA and Myrtle Beach, SC.

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BTW I am thinking about planting out a Ravenea glauca this spring. I believe they are a tad more hardy that the R. rivularis.

Nice, will be interesting to see how it does.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Arch....I always view struggling palms as a way to work on treatment techniques. Practice on them so that when you got something you really want to save, you will have the skills to increase your odds of success.

BTW. ....got cold again last night......28 degrees F. And windy. Palms are getting put to the test here. Left a couple of Caryota sp. Out on the patio.....not looking too great....dark green. .....stupid me.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Thanks for the advice.

Last season one my butias had crown rot, it's spear came clean out. I treated the crown, trunk, and soil with hydrogen peroxide. It is now a beautifully dense palm with a full head of hair. I thought it was wild how the crown and the soil bubbled like an infected wound.

Los Angeles, CA and Myrtle Beach, SC.

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P. sylvestris x canary hybrid showing about 50 percent damage now. 10 ft. clear trunk.post-97-0-64624500-1390487238_thumb.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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P. sylvestris x canary hybrid showing about 50 percent damage now. 10 ft. clear trunk.attachicon.gif20140123_082131.jpg

Pretty much everything in my yard, cept for the Mules and Butia are looking like that now. I just invested heavily in fertilizer. The palms will have a lot of fronds to replace.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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@19 degrees you got thumped, wouldn't expect that again for a long long time..........next winter j/k

Tyler

Coastal Zone 9a

''Karma is a good girl, she just treats you exactly how you treat her"

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Here is my latest damage assessment.

Whoa 80% foliage loss on canaries? Mine are planted in the most exposed place you could think of and they saw the same temperature if not lower once and there was zero damage.. maybe genetic difference or different type/length of freeze I guess.

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I've seen canaries around town with zero damage and I've seen others with a significant amount of damage. Probably is genetic variation as the wind made it the same temps about everywhere around here. My palms are still undergoing some transplant shock, being only planted about 10 months ago. I expect things to harden up after a few years if they make it that long. Realistically, I think everything will make it barring anymore 20 degree temps this winter. Everything except maybe the tall alba and maybe the queens (and several smaller things).

I hear things are about to get pretty bad in Houston, sleet and snow? :bummed: ....hope it doesn't come your way and/or you have an action plan in place.

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Here is my latest damage assessment.

Whoa 80% foliage loss on canaries? Mine are planted in the most exposed place you could think of and they saw the same temperature if not lower once and there was zero damage.. maybe genetic difference or different type/length of freeze I guess.

This same palm saw 3 nights in a row 3 years ago with temps of 21,19,20 with hardly any damage. It has to be environmental in nature. This year, on heavy clay soils we saw near 100 inches of rain where our normal is 60. I must assume there was root damage and the palms were not as resilient as a result.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Uh oh.. i didnt even know about the sleet, we're all out of town, as long as it doesnt get below 28 I think I'll be Ok, thanks for the heads up!

Yup the gulf coast winters are so wet that can really ruin things, the worst combination is when the cold front comes in and drenches the soil, then it freezes repeatedly, then it warms up fast and maybe rains some more.

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34 degrees and snow within 20 miles of me now. Is this the day after tomorrow?

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Keith......your pretty far down state ...yes? :blink2:

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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