I just read the new Terms of Service and .....

[MarkF]

I confess I was horrified.

I realize that I am possibly the newest member of this society and so not a member of long standing or reputation, but I feel compelled to say something.

In my career I have worked with a number of commercial and public bodies to develop and execute digital strategies. In many of these cases I have helped draft and deploy terms of service for users/members. I have to say that the ToS on PalmTalk is the most onerous I have ever seen. When we developed the ToS at the BBC, we had armies of lawyers go over our drafts and never did we see anything so bad. The worst portion is this:

By posting Contributions to any part of the Websites, or making them accessible to the Websites by linking your account to any of your social network accounts, you automatically grant, and you represent and warrant that you have the right to grant, to the Company an unrestricted, unconditional, unlimited, irrevocable, perpetual, non-exclusive, transferable, royalty-free, fully-paid, worldwide right and license to host, use, copy, reproduce, disclose, sell, resell, publish, broadcast, retitle, archive, store, cache, publicly perform, publicly display, reformat, translate, transmit, excerpt (in whole or in part) and distribute such Contributions for any purpose, commercial, advertising, or otherwise, to prepare derivative works of, or incorporate into other works, such Contributions, and to grant and authorize sublicenses of the foregoing. The use and distribution may occur in any media formats and through any media channels. Such use and distribution license will apply to any form, media, or technology now known or hereafter developed. By uploading your Contributions, you hereby warrant that your Contributions are free of any digital rights management, including any software designed to limit the number of times the Contributions may be copied or played. Company may retain archived copies of your Contributions. Company does not assert any ownership over your Contributions; rather, as between us and you, subject to the rights granted to us in this Agreement, you retain full ownership of all of your Contributions and any intellectual property rights or other proprietary rights associated with your Contributions.

In essence, you can take of my contributions, alter them in any way you see fit, and then resell it either with my name attached or not, and profit from it. But it gets worse, if, like many people, we post a link to another site we then also surrender the same rights to anything on those sites. This is the biggest rights grab I have ever seen attempted. You have not offered members any voice in editing these Terms of Service, or any means of opting out or having their previous contributions, not made under this ToS, to be removed and segregated in some way. If you are going to be greedy, the least you can do for your members is to offer them an elegant way out. By simply grabbing rights and not offering members any way of redacting their earlier contributions is just simply theft.

I am confident that NO such malevolent intent existed when these ToS were written. I am hoping this was simply a task that rested in the hands of someone without experience in such matters. If so, I would highly recommend working WITH your precious community, to create something that serves that community, instead of picking its pocket.

[MarkF]

I'm trawling around PT to try to find out how to contact the forum leader in order to suspend all my conributed content, photos and links but there does not seem any obvious way to do so......

[LJG]

I'm trawling around PT to try to find out how to contact the forum leader in order to suspend all my conributed content, photos and links but there does not seem any obvious way to do so......

Don't over react like so many of the 'sky is falling' people that love the chaos it brings here do. The IPS is a non-profit. Do you think they are going to resell your photos? You make it sound like the group has a vindictive nature. Maybe this is just boilerplate language that needs to be corrected. I find it better to point out the stuff that is wrong, and work with the people who put this up. But others love to try and take their jabs.

[bgl]

Mark,

Well said! If the intent was to offend and alienate as many PalmTalk members as possible - great job! And what i find fascinating: in the Terms under "Regarding Content You Provide", again, section "e": ...or otherwise objectionable...". How ironic since these terms are obviously so objectionable to everybody.

And the IPS paid good money for this?

Bo-Göran

[MarkF]

I'm trawling around PT to try to find out how to contact the forum leader in order to suspend all my conributed content, photos and links but there does not seem any obvious way to do so......

Don't over react like so many of the 'sky is falling' people that love the chaos it brings here do. The IPS is a non-profit. Do you think they are going to resell your photos? You make it sound like the group has a vindictive nature. Maybe this is just boilerplate language that needs to be corrected. I find it better to point out the stuff that is wrong, and work with the people who put this up. But others love to try and take their jabs.

I agree that a measured action should take place to fix this and I hope that is what happens. But I don't feel I am overreacting. There are photos of the place where I live and personal details about me and my family here. This place has been robbed in the past and i would hate for that to happen again.

In my experience, non profits are the most active at selling member data and content -- I've worked with some of the biggest online communities and we all need to establish rules of behaviour/terms of service. Most of these are similar. In my experience, organizations include the kinds of IPR clause found in this new ToS only when they intend to use them. They always cause a lot of anxiety and result in membership decay. I've seen membership decay of 15-60% in public communities as a result of IPR rules like these. The more sophisticated guys to a little rights grabbing every year and eventually get what they want without alienating more than 5-10% of the membership. So I would say that at the very least this is a clumsy IPR grab. But it might also be a calculated attempt to prune the user base of members that are of no real use or benefit to the IPS in which case this could be fairly effective but a real hassle -- better to shut the whole thing down and start again with a strict application process ot join the community. It should be remembered that, if the IPS really wants to be a research-lead organization targeting academia, there many universities would never allow their profs to agree to such an IPR share as it is they, or so they believe, who own all the IPR coming out of their profs.

On the other hand, this could simply be a case of the decision makers not really bothering to read the ToS and consider its consequences or preparing he membership. I don't know what the IPS leadership is like so I couldn't say. But it's not uncommon for such important docs to go out without proper scrutiny.

But I do agree Len, a quorum of experienced people, in consultation with the membership and management, should reword this for the benefit of all in the calm light of day. The IPR section of this ToS actually opens the IPS up to all sorts of liabilities along with revenue opportunities. So if the real intent was legal protection, claiming some rights beyond your domain is not a good way of doing it. In the meantime, I think it is perfectly reasonable to either suspend the new ToS until such time as the document can pass a consultation process within the management and membership, or allow members to suspend their accounts and all content they have created that would otherwise fall prey to the new IPR terms. This shows respect for the membership and gives them the chance to proactively grant rights to the IPS rather than allow the IPS to simply take without asking.

[LJG]

I'm trawling around PT to try to find out how to contact the forum leader in order to suspend all my conributed content, photos and links but there does not seem any obvious way to do so......

Don't over react like so many of the 'sky is falling' people that love the chaos it brings here do. The IPS is a non-profit. Do you think they are going to resell your photos? You make it sound like the group has a vindictive nature. Maybe this is just boilerplate language that needs to be corrected. I find it better to point out the stuff that is wrong, and work with the people who put this up. But others love to try and take their jabs.

I agree that a measured action should take place to fix this and I hope that is what happens. But I don't feel I am overreacting. There are photos of the place where I live and personal details about me and my family here. This place has been robbed in the past and i would hate for that to happen again.

In my experience, non profits are the most active at selling member data and content -- I've worked with some of the biggest online communities and we all need to establish rules of behaviour/terms of service. Most of these are similar. In my experience, organizations include the kinds of IPR clause found in this new ToS only when they intend to use them. They always cause a lot of anxiety and result in membership decay. I've seen membership decay of 15-60% in public communities as a result of IPR rules like these. The more sophisticated guys to a little rights grabbing every year and eventually get what they want without alienating more than 5-10% of the membership. So I would say that at the very least this is a clumsy IPR grab. But it might also be a calculated attempt to prune the user base of members that are of no real use or benefit to the IPS in which case this could be fairly effective but a real hassle -- better to shut the whole thing down and start again with a strict application process ot join the community. It should be remembered that, if the IPS really wants to be a research-lead organization targeting academia, there many universities would never allow their profs to agree to such an IPR share as it is they, or so they believe, who own all the IPR coming out of their profs.

On the other hand, this could simply be a case of the decision makers not really bothering to read the ToS and consider its consequences or preparing he membership. I don't know what the IPS leadership is like so I couldn't say. But it's not uncommon for such important docs to go out without proper scrutiny.

But I do agree Len, a quorum of experienced people, in consultation with the membership and management, should reword this for the benefit of all in the calm light of day. The IPR section of this ToS actually opens the IPS up to all sorts of liabilities along with revenue opportunities. So if the real intent was legal protection, claiming some rights beyond your domain is not a good way of doing it. In the meantime, I think it is perfectly reasonable to either suspend the new ToS until such time as the document can pass a consultation process within the management and membership, or allow members to suspend their accounts and all content they have created that would otherwise fall prey to the new IPR terms. This shows respect for the membership and gives them the chance to proactively grant rights to the IPS rather than allow the IPS to simply take without asking.

Mark, if you post a photo or details about yourself online, you risk getting "robbed". Not sure how the Terms tie in there.

I am not on the Board but I am pretty confident the IPS is not looking to make money off your intellectual property. Sorry you had a bad experience with other non-profits.This is a community of palm people run by volunteers working to get with the digital age. They just started sending out a newsletter for example! Thanks for pointing out your concerns in a professional manner. Hopefully issues like this can be corrected quickly and we can move forward to improving the IPS and protecting it.

[_Keith]

Invoking the legal right to do something while not intending to it, when it will most certainly be found to be objectionable. does not seem logical.

[Cindy Adair]

I had assumed some sort of new terms would appear, but had hoped the Palmtalk committee would be given at least a first read to anticipate member concerns.

It is beyond the scope of the committee to understand all the legal considerations. However an initial quick scan on my part suggests some of the same issues mentioned here.

Perhaps this new IPS members only forum will be the appropriate place for reasonable airing of our concerns, preferably before major changes are made permanent. Editing suggestions sound reasonable and respectful to me.

The message beginning with "The IPS has issued" is of course short and to the point. However it is less than welcoming and gets our guard up right away. If it were softened by even a sentence or two explaining the reasons for the new terms and a bit about the process it might help.

In my business, I try to train everyone that saying "It's our policy" when confronted with a potentially unhappy person only raises their blood pressure. If we briefly explain the reason for the rule and sympathize with the need for the rule generally the outcome is much better.

I will reread it tomorrow (with the help of some caffeine) and also hope some explanations will be forthcoming as to the inclusion of the areas of concern. Maybe by then some of you more familiar with such disclaimers can make specific suggestions that will be more palatable.

[Leland Lai]

I too am not of a legal background, however, the root reason for the new TOS IS to mitigate risks and the management thereof. The IPS has worked 58 years to build up its endowment, generally from bequeaths of palm lovers who felt it worth while to support sustainability of the organization. The Board is entrusted with protecting that endowment since, right or wrong, The Society will have to defend itself. Web litigation is a fairly new field and yes, attorney review was part of the process. Our main concern was to have members acknowledge certain liabilities that come along with certain activities since this is a moderated website. The new TOS allows us to un-moderate the PM side but only with agreement to the new TOS. Most PT participants only see the limitations but few would be willing to contribute to any defense should any such occasion arise.

PM is on temporary extension and the TOS was a reviewed way of resolving to keep PM up and running. Some of you mention the cost of finding a solution to keeping PM a part of PT, however, the Board looks at this as an investment and tool for risk management, preserving our endowment so that the iPS can support such programs as PT to begin with. If any of you wish to press the donation button for each posting, the Society would be very grateful. Nothing is free or to everyone's liking these days...not MSN, not Facebook, etc.

[_Keith]

I too am not of a legal background, however, the root reason for the new TOS IS to mitigate risks and the management thereof. The IPS has worked 58 years to build up its endowment, generally from bequeaths of palm lovers who felt it worth while to support sustainability of the organization. The Board is entrusted with protecting that endowment since, right or wrong, The Society will have to defend itself. Web litigation is a fairly new field and yes, attorney review was part of the process. Our main concern was to have members acknowledge certain liabilities that come along with certain activities since this is a moderated website. The new TOS allows us to un-moderate the PM side but only with agreement to the new TOS. Most PT participants only see the limitations but few would be willing to contribute to any defense should any such occasion arise.

PM is on temporary extension and the TOS was a reviewed way of resolving to keep PM up and running. Some of you mention the cost of finding a solution to keeping PM a part of PT, however, the Board looks at this as an investment and tool for risk management, preserving our endowment so that the iPS can support such programs as PT to begin with. If any of you wish to press the donation button for each posting, the Society would be very grateful. Nothing is free or to everyone's liking these days...not MSN, not Facebook, etc.

Leland,

I see no benefit whatsoever to PT keeping PM functionality. We all have email addresses already, many of us have multiple options there. If this is in any way responsible for this policy, then I am in favor of just killing it. However, the objectionable parts of that policy, at least to me have absolutely nothing to do with the PM functionality.

As to contributing to the defense of IPS, I assume a part of my dues goes to that, and to paying the lawyer who wrote this new policy as well, whom as a member, I recommend we replace.

[joe_OC]

I too am not of a legal background, however, the root reason for the new TOS IS to mitigate risks and the management thereof. The IPS has worked 58 years to build up its endowment, generally from bequeaths of palm lovers who felt it worth while to support sustainability of the organization. The Board is entrusted with protecting that endowment since, right or wrong, The Society will have to defend itself. Web litigation is a fairly new field and yes, attorney review was part of the process. Our main concern was to have members acknowledge certain liabilities that come along with certain activities since this is a moderated website. The new TOS allows us to un-moderate the PM side but only with agreement to the new TOS. Most PT participants only see the limitations but few would be willing to contribute to any defense should any such occasion arise.

PM is on temporary extension and the TOS was a reviewed way of resolving to keep PM up and running. Some of you mention the cost of finding a solution to keeping PM a part of PT, however, the Board looks at this as an investment and tool for risk management, preserving our endowment so that the iPS can support such programs as PT to begin with. If any of you wish to press the donation button for each posting, the Society would be very grateful. Nothing is free or to everyone's liking these days...not MSN, not Facebook, etc.

Wow...SERIOUSLY?

So how does taking our intellectual property have anything to do with protecting the IPS and it's precious endowment? PT is part of the service we expect as IPS members. It's the ONLY value I see by being an IPS member. I pay the annual IPS fees to support PT.

I may not like everything on Facebook, but my data is my data. If there are things/ people I don't like, I can block them. The new TOS extends much further than protecting the IPS.

The fact that you said the BOD reviewed the new TOS carefully and still went forward with it tells me that YOU and the IPS BOD (for the most part) are way out of touch.

[PALM MOD]

I see no benefit whatsoever to PT keeping PM functionality.

Keith, I have explained a few places and times already. And the short story is that removing PMs will severely hinder my ability to moderate efficiently. It would add considerable inconvenience and trouble to what I can do easily now with the way PMs are an integral part of the admin and moderating features.

[_Keith]

I see no benefit whatsoever to PT keeping PM functionality.

Keith, I have explained a few places and times already. And the short story is that removing PMs will severely hinder my ability to moderate efficiently. It would add considerable inconvenience and trouble to what I can do easily now with the way PMs are an integral part of the admin and moderating features.

Dean, I understand that. You can have an email address from PT (or the IPS), published on PT, but we can email you from wherever. Most sites just have a form email to submit such things without having their own email system at all.

[PALM MOD]

I see no benefit whatsoever to PT keeping PM functionality.

Keith, I have explained a few places and times already. And the short story is that removing PMs will severely hinder my ability to moderate efficiently. It would add considerable inconvenience and trouble to what I can do easily now with the way PMs are an integral part of the admin and moderating features.

Dean, I understand that. You can have an email address from PT (or the IPS), published on PT, but we can email you from wherever. Most sites just have a form email to submit such things without having their own email system at all.

No Keith - you do not understand. And until you are privy to all the features and how everything is conveniently integrated for an administrator, from the reporting system, the warning system, etc. - everything right there designed for efficient review when I log in every morning - I don't expect you to. Just believe me. Why would I want to lie to you?

You would have me sorting through the last ten years of emails to try and remember why I warned a particular member 8-9 years previously - instead of one click in my Admin PMs.

[Moose]

I'll bet Dent Smith would be so proud of the evolvement of the IPS legacy ...

[LJG]

I'll bet Dent Smith would be so proud of the evolvement of the IPS legacy ...

Anything constructive to offer?

[MarkF]

First, I'd like to say I regret 'kicking a hornet's nest.' I'm sorry if my words were too inflammatory. I've dealt with this kind of issue many times in my career and so I have a sensitivity for this particular issue and had an almost instinctive reaction. I'm confident that the requirements for members, Dean, and the IPS can be met elegantly and swiftly but it will take a little more work. And from what I've been reading around PT, there are some great minds already uncovering these things. So this newbie will do his best to not upset the apple cart by keeping his dumb trap shut for now...

M

[Cindy Adair]

First, I'd like to say I regret 'kicking a hornet's nest.' I'm sorry if my words were too inflammatory. I've dealt with this kind of issue many times in my career and so I have a sensitivity for this particular issue and had an almost instinctive reaction. I'm confident that the requirements for members, Dean, and the IPS can be met elegantly and swiftly but it will take a little more work. And from what I've been reading around PT, there are some great minds already uncovering these things. So this newbie will do his best to not upset the apple cart by keeping his dumb trap shut for now...

M

I agree with you Mark that I am confident that we will go forward. I have appreciated your interest and comments with insight in an area far from my realm of expertise.

Many of us are clearly passionate about Palmtalk yet know Dean and the IPS as a whole need protection from potentially devastating litigation.

[PALM MOD]

First, I'd like to say I regret 'kicking a hornet's nest.' I'm sorry if my words were too inflammatory. I've dealt with this kind of issue many times in my career and so I have a sensitivity for this particular issue and had an almost instinctive reaction. I'm confident that the requirements for members, Dean, and the IPS can be met elegantly and swiftly but it will take a little more work. And from what I've been reading around PT, there are some great minds already uncovering these things. So this newbie will do his best to not upset the apple cart by keeping his dumb trap shut for now...

M

To my new neighbor - I welcome criticism. And you have taken the time to offer yours, both here and privately (where the answers to most of your questions would be more easily discussed in person). I hope we have the opportunity to PalmTalk in greater depth soon.

But please, don't stop caring, and don't stop contributing. Unless we all agree on everything forever, criticism is not only inevitable, but if constructive and courteous, it can often times turn into a positive.

[_Keith]

I see no benefit whatsoever to PT keeping PM functionality.

Keith, I have explained a few places and times already. And the short story is that removing PMs will severely hinder my ability to moderate efficiently. It would add considerable inconvenience and trouble to what I can do easily now with the way PMs are an integral part of the admin and moderating features.

Dean, I understand that. You can have an email address from PT (or the IPS), published on PT, but we can email you from wherever. Most sites just have a form email to submit such things without having their own email system at all.

No Keith - you do not understand. And until you are privy to all the features and how everything is conveniently integrated for an administrator, from the reporting system, the warning system, etc. - everything right there designed for efficient review when I log in every morning - I don't expect you to. Just believe me. Why would I want to lie to you?

You would have me sorting through the last ten years of emails to try and remember why I warned a particular member 8-9 years previously - instead of one click in my Admin PMs.

Dean, let me clarify that I do not think you lied to me, or think you have ever lied to me. Agree or disagree as we may I have no doubt of, and have never doubted your integrity.

[Toby]

I have to say I found the new ToS a bit hard to stomach and a bit too full of legalese, but I can see their necessity in an environment where you can be sued for just about anything, even if you have done nothing wrong.

In plain terms, the purpose is to cover the IPS from all eventualities, NOTHING else. The IPS HAS NEVER and WILL NEVER sell user data, period. I have been a member for well over two decades, and I think I know the society and the board of directors pretty well.

Please don't blow this out of proportion. We are a tiny plant society. I wonder how many of you have read the ToS of the software you are using, of Google, Facebook or wherever else you may be partaking?!

Best, TOBY

[doranakandawatta]

Mark,

Well said! If the intent was to offend and alienate as many PalmTalk members as possible - great job! And what i find fascinating: in the Terms under "Regarding Content You Provide", again, section "e": ...or otherwise objectionable...". How ironic since these terms are obviously so objectionable to everybody.

And the IPS paid good money for this?

Bo-Göran

I come out my jungle and get connected, and: ........ NEW TERMS OF SERVICE!!!!

If the intent was to offend and alienate as many PalmTalk members as possible - great job!

Why IPS BOD do not take holiday and go to plant some palms in any garden instead of doing that new story!

After the PM issue comes that! is it the way BOD is preparing elections?

At the time I wanted to ask when we can get a "2014 Palmtalk supporter tag" I am not sure I stay IPS member....

Better for me to go back to garden and check my seedlings.

Bo-Göran, what do they drink in IPS BOD meetings?

Best regards

Philippe

[bgl]

Bo-Göran, what do they drink in IPS BOD meetings?

Water!

[joe_OC]

Please don't blow this out of proportion. We are a tiny plant society. I wonder how many of you have read the ToS of the software you are using, of Google, Facebook or wherever else you may be partaking?!

Best, TOBY

We are a small community that has a shared interest in palms. Yet, the new TOS and all this talk about risks sure makes the IPS look and act like a large company...

[Toby]

Why IPS BOD do not take holiday and go to plant some palms in any garden instead of doing that new story!

After the PM issue comes that! is it the way BOD is preparing elections?

At the time I wanted to ask when we can get a "2014 Palmtalk supporter tag" I am not sure I stay IPS member....

Better for me to go back to garden and check my seedlings.

Bo-Göran, what do they drink in IPS BOD meetings?

Best regards

Philippe

Philippe, it has been mentioned elsewhere, but I will repeat it here, the new ToS have been produced by the risk management committee, they have not been reviewed or voted on by the BOD. This just to clarify.

I do think if the content license is adapted/clarified a bit, the ToS are acceptable.

Best, TOBY

[Toby]

Please don't blow this out of proportion. We are a tiny plant society. I wonder how many of you have read the ToS of the software you are using, of Google, Facebook or wherever else you may be partaking?!

Best, TOBY

We are a small community that has a shared interest in palms. Yet, the new TOS and all this talk about risks sure makes the IPS look and act like a large company...

Unfortunately we face many of the same risks. Personally, I find we worry too much about this, but people on the BOD with better knowledge of the litigious environment in the US think we must act.

Best, TOBY

[_Keith]

Why IPS BOD do not take holiday and go to plant some palms in any garden instead of doing that new story!

After the PM issue comes that! is it the way BOD is preparing elections?

At the time I wanted to ask when we can get a "2014 Palmtalk supporter tag" I am not sure I stay IPS member....

Better for me to go back to garden and check my seedlings.

Bo-Göran, what do they drink in IPS BOD meetings?

Best regards

Philippe

Philippe, it has been mentioned elsewhere, but I will repeat it here, the new ToS have been produced by the risk management committee, they have not been reviewed or voted on by the BOD. This just to clarify.

I do think if the content license is adapted/clarified a bit, the ToS are acceptable.

Best, TOBY

Toby, the Terms of Service is posted on this website, and one agrees by using the site, to them . This is clearly stated on the PT homepage. It is very much stated as an official and in place right now thing. There no "Coming Soon." If this is a non-approved draft, then that should be changed to "Proposed Terms of Service" and the content watermarked "Draft."

As you know, I am an avid fan of PT and support it by both small direct financial contribution, participation and by membership in IPS. And while I am member of the IPS, I am not so avid a fan of it. This apparent* continuous abandonment of procedures, protocol, and rules of order are of great concern to me. I hope that this will be addressed in a very direct manner at the Biennial in 2014.

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

The IPS has issued a new "Terms of Service" outlining the terms that users of PalmTalk must agree to abide by, and be aware of, if they intend to continue using the Forum. All new users will be required to agree to these terms. And all present users are hereby noticed that these terms apply to them as well.

NEW "TERMS OF SERVICE"

*On the abandonment of procedures, not being a board member, I can only rely upon what I hear from existing sitting board members, several board members actually, and statements made here on this forum. I am not pointing fingers and wish to convey that I do not think in any case there is any ill will or malice involved. But procedures and rules of order exist for a reason and should be followed until formally changed.

[doranakandawatta]

.....As you know, I am an avid fan of PT and support it by both small direct financial contribution, participation and by membership in IPS. And while I am member of the IPS, I am not so avid a fan of it. This apparent* continuous abandonment of procedures, protocol, and rules of order are of great concern to me.

I can make Keith's my words...

I hope IPS's manners will change.

....procedures and rules of order exist for a reason and should be followed until formally changed.

Why is it so difficult to follow the rules?

[Toby]

You can be sure I will bring this up at the Miami meeting, just like "exhibit A", if no changes to fix/scrap either have been made by then.

Best, TOBY

[Mandrew968]

I'll bet Dent Smith would be so proud of the evolvement of the IPS legacy ...

Anything constructive to offer?

Rarely.

[Succulentum]

for some reasons I stood away from palmtalk for a moment, what is my amazement today to see all this mess. I don't know who is the instigators of all that mess and why ? I will not waste my time to read all the post to forge my opinion, but not that direction to enhance IPS, and to get some new members. it will just encourage members to go elsewhere.
I remember the good times of fellowship on palmtalk ! a pity !

[doranakandawatta]

for some reasons I stood away from palmtalk for a moment, what is my amazement today to see all this mess. I don't know who is the instigators of all that mess and why ? I will not waste my time to read all the post to forge my opinion, but not that direction to enhance IPS, and to get some new members. it will just encourage members to go elsewhere.

I remember the good times of fellowship on palmtalk ! a pity !

I am glad an other french speaking member write so well what I feel too, Merci Jean-Bernard.

I wonder if the IPS directors, realize how, since mid-october, this mess is giving such a worldwide bad picture of Palmtalk!

[Walter John]

Most if not all have very little knowledge and understanding of my contribution to palms, fair enough, I'm just a poor boy from Wynnum, that's in Australia. Even more and probably everyone would have no idea of my involvement with major corporations and my assistance and involvement with minor voluntary groups like Palmtalk and Lifeline, hell, managing my own family as the senior member is tough enough.

I've told my grand daughter, "don't touch that piece of paper, that belongs to Nanna".

Then she touches it, and she gets admonished, why ? because she was told not to touch it.

What exactly happens if she touches it ?

Absolutely nothing.

[Kim]

I've decided to keep calm and carry on.

I realize that all the possible negatives contained in the terms of service could never come to pass due to inertia.

[doubravsky]

I'm with Kim.

[doranakandawatta]

Thank you Kim for your peaceful message,

I'll follow you trying to keep calm.

Philippe

[Toby]

I've told my grand daughter, "don't touch that piece of paper, that belongs to Nanna".

Then she touches it, and she gets admonished, why ? because she was told not to touch it.

What exactly happens if she touches it ?

Absolutely nothing.

Not quite Wal, she gets your attention whan she touches the paper!

Best, TOBY

[Kennybenjamin]

I've decided to keep calm and carry on.

I realize that all the possible negatives contained in the terms of service could never come to pass due to inertia.

Me too, palm talk is a great place to spend time and the people here are great people!! We all come here to see photos of palms all over the world and if people don't post pics it will severely diminish this website!!!

I don't believe the IPS wants to or is able to make money off my palm pics ( I certainly haven't figured out how too yet? )If the IPS wants to use any of my pics to promote palms then they have my permission to do so..... I post my pictures to show all you palmtalkers and hopefully give encouragement to newbies, ie to promote palms!!

[doranakandawatta]

palm talk is a great place to spend time and the people here are great people!! We all come here to see photos of palms all over the world and if people don't post pics it will severely diminish this website!!!