B. afredii Zone 9a Hardy?

[_Keith]

Yes, this year I was blessed with gifts. I guess the powers above knew this was my tightest garden budget year ever and blessed me. Well, if we have a mild winter they have blessed me, if not I shall be forgiveness from the gift bearers. This is one of the 4 B. alfredii quite happy and pushing a new front. You can see another of the 4 in the background. All are pushing a new frond, so I guess they are happy in their new environment.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

B. alfredii is a solid USDA zone 9b palm, but below 25F it will start to show damage. So if you're on the upper end of 9a, you should be safe and only get some damage. In a subtropical climate, alfredii is good anywhere that you can grow a bismarckia. In fact, I'd say it's got the same tolerance to a wet frost that bismarckia has, which is not very much. But dry cold should be good into the 24F range.

In terms of PalmPedia zone, I'd put it in subtropical 3A: http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/SPECIES_ZONE_SCALE_3A:_The_Bismark_Zone

[JD in the OC]

A great palm that will be much more popular in Mediterranean and Desert climates for years to come! Nice tree!

[_Keith]

1. They are under outside canopy of a very large Live Oak. Frost protection, and that big Oak sucks up moisture like a sponge. About the best I can do for it.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

1. They are under outside canopy of a very large Live Oak. Frost protection, and that big Oak sucks up moisture like a sponge. About the best I can do for it.

If you know it's going to drop into the low 20's, I would recommend you protect it until it gets a little bigger.

[Tassie_Troy1971]

looks perfect Keith !

[_Keith]

1. They are under outside canopy of a very large Live Oak. Frost protection, and that big Oak sucks up moisture like a sponge. About the best I can do for it.

If you know it's going to drop into the low 20's, I would recommend you protect it until it gets a little bigger.

Low 20s is a once every 15 to 20 year thing here. Average winter is a low of may 27/28 and that is only for a few hours in the early morning on one or two nights. Last 2 years we were easily 10a. 2010 was a 15 year record low where it got to 20ish for 3 nights in a row. It is just that one arctic blast we get every 15 to 20 years on average that changes our zone lower. We can easily make a 10 year stretch without going below 26 even for an hour. Years without a freeze or a frost are not unheard of. It is like living in a temperature roller coaster, but with an irregular dip. Who know?

[Tropicdoc]

^{Come on Keith... getting cold feet already!? I really think they are gonna make it through cold with no frost.}

[_Keith]

^{Come on Keith... getting cold feet already!? I really think they are gonna make it through cold with no frost.}

Doc, you are ruining the suspense. Work with me, here. LOL.

[Tropicdoc]

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

1. They are under outside canopy of a very large Live Oak. Frost protection, and that big Oak sucks up moisture like a sponge. About the best I can do for it.

If you know it's going to drop into the low 20's, I would recommend you protect it until it gets a little bigger.

Low 20s is a once every 15 to 20 year thing here. Average winter is a low of may 27/28 and that is only for a few hours in the early morning on one or two nights. Last 2 years we were easily 10a. 2010 was a 15 year record low where it got to 20ish for 3 nights in a row. It is just that one arctic blast we get every 15 to 20 years on average that changes our zone lower. We can easily make a 10 year stretch without going below 26 even for an hour. Years without a freeze or a frost are not unheard of. It is like living in a temperature roller coaster, but with an irregular dip. Who know?

What you describe sounds like USDA 9b, not 9a. If I take what you just said literally, here's what it translates to math wise:

Take 40-45 year stretch, two of those 40 years are say 20F estreme low

4 ten year stretches where it never gets below 26, out of which say 2 years out of each 10 years it's not below freezing, so say 32F min.

Let's see, that would be:

(20+20+4 x(8 x 26 + 2 * 32))/42 = 26.85F, clearly cooler USDA zone 9b, but not a 9a by any means.

So what the heck are you worried about? Your alfredii will be just fine, especially under the canopy.

[_Keith]

1. They are under outside canopy of a very large Live Oak. Frost protection, and that big Oak sucks up moisture like a sponge. About the best I can do for it.

If you know it's going to drop into the low 20's, I would recommend you protect it until it gets a little bigger.

Low 20s is a once every 15 to 20 year thing here. Average winter is a low of may 27/28 and that is only for a few hours in the early morning on one or two nights. Last 2 years we were easily 10a. 2010 was a 15 year record low where it got to 20ish for 3 nights in a row. It is just that one arctic blast we get every 15 to 20 years on average that changes our zone lower. We can easily make a 10 year stretch without going below 26 even for an hour. Years without a freeze or a frost are not unheard of. It is like living in a temperature roller coaster, but with an irregular dip. Who know?

What you describe sounds like USDA 9b, not 9a. If I take what you just said literally, here's what it translates to math wise:

Take 40-45 year stretch, two of those 40 years are say 20F estreme low

4 ten year stretches where it never gets below 26, out of which say 2 years out of each 10 years it's not below freezing, so say 32F min.

Let's see, that would be:

(20+20+4 x(8 x 26 + 2 * 32))/42 = 26.85F, clearly cooler USDA zone 9b, but not a 9a by any means.

So what the heck are you worried about? Your alfredii will be just fine, especially under the canopy.

As I said, it is roller coaster. A few warm years and it is on its way. A cold one and it is toast.

[Tropicdoc]

He's probably worried about another 2010. From which I heard his A. Cunningham got torched even under canopy. Like you told me, Axel, there are no mountain ranges between us and Canada. We are sitting ducks when a serious coldfront heads down. Even just a little water helps. 9b climates are in New Orleans (South of Lake Ponchartrain) and Galveston (South of Galveston Bay) I do think I agree with Keith's description of our climate. And I think I run a tad bit warmer than him.

[sonoranfans]

• They are under outside canopy of a very large Live Oak. Frost protection, and that big Oak sucks up moisture like a sponge. About the best I can do for it.

If you know it's going to drop into the low 20's, I would recommend you protect it until it gets a little bigger.

Low 20s is a once every 15 to 20 year thing here. Average winter is a low of may 27/28 and that is only for a few hours in the early morning on one or two nights. Last 2 years we were easily 10a. 2010 was a 15 year record low where it got to 20ish for 3 nights in a row. It is just that one arctic blast we get every 15 to 20 years on average that changes our zone lower. We can easily make a 10 year stretch without going below 26 even for an hour. Years without a freeze or a frost are not unheard of. It is like living in a temperature roller coaster, but with an irregular dip. Who know?

What you describe sounds like USDA 9b, not 9a. If I take what you just said literally, here's what it translates to math wise:

Take 40-45 year stretch, two of those 40 years are say 20F estreme low

4 ten year stretches where it never gets below 26, out of which say 2 years out of each 10 years it's not below freezing, so say 32F min.

Let's see, that would be:

(20+20+4 x(8 x 26 + 2 * 32))/42 = 26.85F, clearly cooler USDA zone 9b, but not a 9a by any means.

So what the heck are you worried about? Your alfredii will be just fine, especially under the canopy.

As I said, it is roller coaster. A few warm years and it is on its way. A cold one and it is toast.

I agree, the next 2-3 years will determine if it makes it.

[palmsnbananas]

Sorry but heck no!! There's a really good alfredii cold hardiness thread on here somewhere that gives some good info!

My opinion is it's not even close they will die easily!

Of course if they're under canopy, and your a high 9a then I'm not sure, but I do know that in Houston it's a sure goner!

That shouldn't stop you from trying anyways though!

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Sorry but heck no!! There's a really good alfredii cold hardiness thread on here somewhere that gives some good info!

My opinion is it's not even close they will die easily!

Of course if they're under canopy, and your a high 9a then I'm not sure, but I do know that in Houston it's a sure goner!

That shouldn't stop you from trying anyways though!

The cold hardiness thread actually demonstrates a pretty clear consensus that this palm is safe in dry cold down to around 22F, but is sensitive to actual white frost or ice acumulating on the leaves. basically it's almost identical in cold sensitivity to a bismarckia - tender when young and hardier and hardier as it gets larger. Under canopy it should easily thrive in keith's garden as long as he's truly only in the low 20's every 20 years or so.

[Xenon]

Sorry but heck no!! There's a really good alfredii cold hardiness thread on here somewhere that gives some good info!

My opinion is it's not even close they will die easily!

Of course if they're under canopy, and your a high 9a then I'm not sure, but I do know that in Houston it's a sure goner!

That shouldn't stop you from trying anyways though!

Houston aside from the far northern and western suburbs is most definitely a high 9a bordering on 9b. We do not have 2010 winters every year! Most of Houston was also 20ish in that freeze and downtown "only" got to 25F. Like S. Louisiana, we can go many winters without a major freeze. Short radiational freezes in the high 20s don't seem to be that damaging.

[Phoenikakias]

B. alfredii is a solid USDA zone 9b palm, but below 25F it will start to show damage. So if you're on the upper end of 9a, you should be safe and only get some damage. In a subtropical climate, alfredii is good anywhere that you can grow a bismarckia. In fact, I'd say it's got the same tolerance to a wet frost that bismarckia has, which is not very much. But dry cold should be good into the 24F range.

In terms of PalmPedia zone, I'd put it in subtropical 3A: http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/SPECIES_ZONE_SCALE_3A:_The_Bismark_Zone

Are you kidding? Latania in the same zone with Bismarckia?!?! Saribus also must be distinguished between the variety with blackish petioles and the other with the green one. Former is fairly cold sensitive.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

B. alfredii is a solid USDA zone 9b palm, but below 25F it will start to show damage. So if you're on the upper end of 9a, you should be safe and only get some damage. In a subtropical climate, alfredii is good anywhere that you can grow a bismarckia. In fact, I'd say it's got the same tolerance to a wet frost that bismarckia has, which is not very much. But dry cold should be good into the 24F range.

In terms of PalmPedia zone, I'd put it in subtropical 3A: http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/SPECIES_ZONE_SCALE_3A:_The_Bismark_Zone

Are you kidding? Latania in the same zone with Bismarckia?!?! Saribus also must be distinguished between the variety with blackish petioles and the other with the green one. Former is fairly cold sensitive.

I agree, latania does not belong on that list. Those hardiness zones need some edits.

[palmsnbananas]

No way that threat clearly showed I forget who it was had a 8ft Alfredii that was almost outright killed in the low 20's.

I have a bismarckia and had 3 alfredii's and the bismarck has survived 18 with no protection and the 3 alfredii were toasted completely at 23 degrees and I mean nuked and they were in a somewhat sheltered position away from wind and under a ledge to protect them from rain.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

No way that threat clearly showed I forget who it was had a 8ft Alfredii that was almost outright killed in the low 20's.

I have a bismarckia and had 3 alfredii's and the bismarck has survived 18 with no protection and the 3 alfredii were toasted completely at 23 degrees and I mean nuked and they were in a somewhat sheltered position away from wind and under a ledge to protect them from rain.

why don't you post your results in the thread? Were yours large or small and what size was your bizzie? Bismarckia are actually only tissue hardy to about 28F and only become more hardy with size mostly because of the increase in mass. In fact, the hardiness of bizzies is derived mostly from their ability to recover from fire damage in habitat.

I have an alfredii I just planted that was exposed to 25F last Winter about 20 miles further inland. It had zero trace of any damage whatsoever and it was fully exposed, no overhead canopy. That was a dry freeze.

[sonoranfans]

No way that threat clearly showed I forget who it was had a 8ft Alfredii that was almost outright killed in the low 20's.

I have a bismarckia and had 3 alfredii's and the bismarck has survived 18 with no protection and the 3 alfredii were toasted completely at 23 degrees and I mean nuked and they were in a somewhat sheltered position away from wind and under a ledge to protect them from rain.

I also have experienced bismarckias being much more frost tolerant than B alfredii. In 2010, my alfredii was frost burned to the ground @ 28F and fully recovered over 2 years. An even more exposed bismarckia at a bit smaller size had only 30-40% damage on the two lowest of 5 leaves. My bigger 15 gallon bismarckia just laughed at the frost, no damage. The lowest leaves of bismarckia have the least wax on them and I think this is why the lower ones may get frost damage. However, once established, the lower leaves get more wax coating. Wax is an insulator and a waterproof one so it makes sense that the silver bizzies are somewhat frost tolerant. I do also add a caveat, bismarckias with wet feet in winter do poorly, they wont be as cold hardy in climates with wet winters. My lone bizzie that died in 22F cold(x 2 nights in a row) in my Arizona house got bud rot and spear pull while the three that survived never pulled a spear. the one that pulled a spear was a pretty white one, but it was planted near a flower garden that was getting frequent irrigation. When I dug it out the clay under the palm was wet, too wet. I had dug the hole 3' deep and 4' wide and amended but it apparently didn't drain fast enough to be near a flower garden.

[palmsnbananas]

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/8924-beccariophoenix-alfredii/?hl=+alfredii%20+cold%20+tolerance

This is the definitive thread and since I have first hand experience in the gulf coast I can tell you it would be extreeemely difficult to keep them alive, I know they are extremely beautiful and mine grew amazingly well before that particular winter but the frosts are really brutal to this palm. If you could go 2 years without a significant freeze it may have time to recover but consecutive years down to 24 or so would surely kill any alfredii I think.

[sonoranfans]

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/8924-beccariophoenix-alfredii/?hl=+alfredii%20+cold%20+tolerance

This is the definitive thread and since I have first hand experience in the gulf coast I can tell you it would be extreeemely difficult to keep them alive, I know they are extremely beautiful and mine grew amazingly well before that particular winter but the frosts are really brutal to this palm. If you could go 2 years without a significant freeze it may have time to recover but consecutive years down to 24 or so would surely kill any alfredii I think.

The problem with this thread is that most of the palms(all but 1) were seedlings that were not established. The remaining larger palm saw a big cold event not common in 9a and had no overhead protection. I can agree that it will be difficult in Houston, Houston got some pretty nasty weather including ice storms over that period. Not sure what the other gulf coast areas get. I think established adult cold tolerance is still an open question with B Alfredii.

[Phoenikakias]

No way that threat clearly showed I forget who it was had a 8ft Alfredii that was almost outright killed in the low 20's.

I have a bismarckia and had 3 alfredii's and the bismarck has survived 18 with no protection and the 3 alfredii were toasted completely at 23 degrees and I mean nuked and they were in a somewhat sheltered position away from wind and under a ledge to protect them from rain.

I also have experienced bismarckias being much more frost tolerant than B alfredii. In 2010, my alfredii was frost burned to the ground @ 28F and fully recovered over 2 years. An even more exposed bismarckia at a bit smaller size had only 30-40% damage on the two lowest of 5 leaves. My bigger 15 gallon bismarckia just laughed at the frost, no damage. The lowest leaves of bismarckia have the least wax on them and I think this is why the lower ones may get frost damage. However, once established, the lower leaves get more wax coating. Wax is an insulator and a waterproof one so it makes sense that the silver bizzies are somewhat frost tolerant. I do also add a caveat, bismarckias with wet feet in winter do poorly, they wont be as cold hardy in climates with wet winters. My lone bizzie that died in 22F cold(x 2 nights in a row) in my Arizona house got bud rot and spear pull while the three that survived never pulled a spear. the one that pulled a spear was a pretty white one, but it was planted near a flower garden that was getting frequent irrigation. When I dug it out the clay under the palm was wet, too wet. I had dug the hole 3' deep and 4' wide and amended but it apparently didn't drain fast enough to be near a flower garden.

I agree Tom, I have had a recent very bitter experience with wet feet of Bismarckia. I had left by accident a dripping emitter open during winter although I had checked it to be closed. But it turned out that the emitter could not be turned clockwise (it is the way one can turn off the emitter) because of salt accumulation. have you ever tried despite the spear pull to save this Bismarckia?

[Tropicdoc]

The reason I gave the alfrediis to Keith is because I have no canopy. I had been reading on palmtalk that frost will really damage Alfredii leaves. So, even if the Alfredii would survive they would be ugly we will have a few frosts pretty much every winter. But, these palms I believe can survive some cold without frost. Axel backs this up. So..... Good luck Keith!

[_Keith]

The reason I gave the alfrediis to Keith is because I have no canopy. I had been reading on palmtalk that frost will really damage Alfredii leaves. So, even if the Alfredii would survive they would be ugly we will have a few frosts pretty much every winter. But, these palms I believe can survive some cold without frost. Axel backs this up. So..... Good luck Keith!

In that scenario they are in the best So. Louisiana has to offer, They are under outer Live Oak canopy on the south side of the home.

[cajuntropics]

Good luck with the alfredii Keith. My mom has a live oak and she seems to get away with murder under it! Bromeliads,dioon spinulosum,dieffenbachia,etc...

[sonoranfans]

No way that threat clearly showed I forget who it was had a 8ft Alfredii that was almost outright killed in the low 20's.

I have a bismarckia and had 3 alfredii's and the bismarck has survived 18 with no protection and the 3 alfredii were toasted completely at 23 degrees and I mean nuked and they were in a somewhat sheltered position away from wind and under a ledge to protect them from rain.

I also have experienced bismarckias being much more frost tolerant than B alfredii. In 2010, my alfredii was frost burned to the ground @ 28F and fully recovered over 2 years. An even more exposed bismarckia at a bit smaller size had only 30-40% damage on the two lowest of 5 leaves. My bigger 15 gallon bismarckia just laughed at the frost, no damage. The lowest leaves of bismarckia have the least wax on them and I think this is why the lower ones may get frost damage. However, once established, the lower leaves get more wax coating. Wax is an insulator and a waterproof one so it makes sense that the silver bizzies are somewhat frost tolerant. I do also add a caveat, bismarckias with wet feet in winter do poorly, they wont be as cold hardy in climates with wet winters. My lone bizzie that died in 22F cold(x 2 nights in a row) in my Arizona house got bud rot and spear pull while the three that survived never pulled a spear. the one that pulled a spear was a pretty white one, but it was planted near a flower garden that was getting frequent irrigation. When I dug it out the clay under the palm was wet, too wet. I had dug the hole 3' deep and 4' wide and amended but it apparently didn't drain fast enough to be near a flower garden.

I agree Tom, I have had a recent very bitter experience with wet feet of Bismarckia. I had left by accident a dripping emitter open during winter although I had checked it to be closed. But it turned out that the emitter could not be turned clockwise (it is the way one can turn off the emitter) because of salt accumulation. have you ever tried despite the spear pull to save this Bismarckia?

Kostantinos this was about 7 years ago, just after I joined palmtalk, before I learned all the wisdom of saving spear pulled palms on palmtalk. Perhaps it could have been saved by daconil/peroxide and perhaps just cutting off the stem/dead material would have worked(see bizzie cold tolerance thread on this site. I have saved at least half a dozen cold damaged palms by what I have learned here. Those who have not visited the cold hardy section here should do so, it could make the difference between a live recovering palm and a dead one.

I look forward to reports on alfredii. It could be that larger ones are less susceptible to frost burn. In my

9b area, I expect these will be more prominent in the landscape in the future as larger specimens become available. Most people don't want to start with a seedling, they are not patient enough.

Edited October 14, 2013 by sonoranfans

[Alicehunter2000]

We'll see how this one does

[Zeeth]

We'll see how this one does20131022_174347.jpg

Wrong pic?

[Alicehunter2000]

Lol.....yes......got a new phone....new technology for me especially when I'm used to a flip phone. I was thinking of another thread when I posted the C. alba. Wish I had an B.alfredii to try up here. But should probably see how this winter goes at the new digs first.

[_Keith]

Hmmm, fire on the beach, extra room at no fee. I could be convinced to run help you protect your palms even at the expense of my own, lol.

[Sutter Bob]

My prediction:

Will be ok thanks to the canopy.

Another story if out in the open.

[Alicehunter2000]

Hmmm, fire on the beach, extra room at no fee. I could be convinced to run help you protect your palms even at the expense of my own, lol.

Wife says just bring plenty of baked goodies.

[palmsnbananas]

Sorry but heck no!! There's a really good alfredii cold hardiness thread on here somewhere that gives some good info!

My opinion is it's not even close they will die easily!

Of course if they're under canopy, and your a high 9a then I'm not sure, but I do know that in Houston it's a sure goner!

That shouldn't stop you from trying anyways though!

Houston aside from the far northern and western suburbs is most definitely a high 9a bordering on 9b. We do not have 2010 winters every year! Most of Houston was also 20ish in that freeze and downtown "only" got to 25F. Like S. Louisiana, we can go many winters without a major freeze. Short radiational freezes in the high 20s don't seem to be that damaging.

Tonight in Houston: 19 deg Katy and 19 deg Sugarland !!

[_Keith]

And 20 at my house, so we will get a feel for how those B. alfredii will do. But they were young, and not established, so I did take some steps to protect them a bit. I covered them, well at least the growing points with Oak Leaves, and then threw a blanket over the top. That might get them another 5 degree hedge, but they will still see 25 easily tonight. Last night they saw 26 degrees unprotected. And they had already seen 31, 31, and 30 this year. It has been a chilly one, so they will get their Zone 9a test right in my yard.

[palmsnbananas]

Same thing happened to me, the year that I planted 3 of them is the year it got down to the high teens, but I didn't protect them at all! Good luck!

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

And 20 at my house, so we will get a feel for how those B. alfredii will do. But they were young, and not established, so I did take some steps to protect them a bit. I covered them, well at least the growing points with Oak Leaves, and then threw a blanket over the top. That might get them another 5 degree hedge, but they will still see 25 easily tonight. Last night they saw 26 degrees unprotected. And they had already seen 31, 31, and 30 this year. It has been a chilly one, so they will get their Zone 9a test right in my yard.

Your forecast is 24F, if it doesn't get any lower you'll be fine. One of my alfredii is in my cold pit in the lower garden as a test, it was 26F at 6 feet, and probably quite a bit colder at 2 feet height given the intense inversion cold. It was below freezing for the entire night, and it did that 5 nights in a row. Yet not a trace of damage. I mean nothing at all, the thing looks perfect even after 5 weeks of mid 70's to low 80's.

The six footer I planted in my upper garden where it only got to 31F was opening a new leaf right as the cold passed through. That leaf has a tiny, tiny hint of injury from 31F as it has fully opened now. I can't get that thing to stop growing, it's pushing yet another leaf out followed by a new spear. Faster than my parajubaea.

Moral of the story: you don't want fresh growth exposed to cold, even 32F, but the older growth is easily hardy to the mid 20's if not more provided there's no frost forming on the leaves.

[_Keith]

And 20 at my house, so we will get a feel for how those B. alfredii will do. But they were young, and not established, so I did take some steps to protect them a bit. I covered them, well at least the growing points with Oak Leaves, and then threw a blanket over the top. That might get them another 5 degree hedge, but they will still see 25 easily tonight. Last night they saw 26 degrees unprotected. And they had already seen 31, 31, and 30 this year. It has been a chilly one, so they will get their Zone 9a test right in my yard.

Your forecast is 24F, if it doesn't get any lower you'll be fine. One of my alfredii is in my cold pit in the lower garden as a test, it was 26F at 6 feet, and probably quite a bit colder at 2 feet height given the intense inversion cold. It was below freezing for the entire night, and it did that 5 nights in a row. Yet not a trace of damage. I mean nothing at all, the thing looks perfect even after 5 weeks of mid 70's to low 80's.

The six footer I planted in my upper garden where it only got to 31F was opening a new leaf right as the cold passed through. That leaf has a tiny, tiny hint of injury from 31F as it has fully opened now. I can't get that thing to stop growing, it's pushing yet another leaf out followed by a new spear. Faster than my parajubaea.

Moral of the story: you don't want fresh growth exposed to cold, even 32F, but the older growth is easily hardy to the mid 20's if not more provided there's no frost forming on the leaves.

My forecast for last night was 26 and we pretty much got there. My forecast for tonight is 20, and it is pretty sure we will get there as it is already 28 prior to midnight. My forecast for tomorrow night is again, 26.