Climate of Extreme South Florida Truly Tropical?

[Yunder Wækraus]

11 hours ago, bubba said:

Updating you on the “lip of the lake” during the Florida artic incursion in January 2022. No helicopters necessary to protect winter corn crop! Not tropical but some things grow tropical!

It is the ultimate hidden spot! If I had the money, I'd buy land there now and try mangosteen, breadfruit, lipstick palms, etc. as a test

[Jimbean]

3 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

I lived in Indialantic, and healthy coconuts that predated the late 1980s, were functionally missing from neighborhoods once you left the lagoon shoreline in Melbourne and Palm Bay. One of my cousins, who grew up in Satellite Beach, moved to Palm Bay ~20 years ago, but well inland. He loves the tropical plants around which he was raised (he also lived in the Keys and the Bahamas), but coconuts and many other favored plants could not survive in his Palm Bay neighborhood. I'm sure there are spots where a coconut might survive for decades with the right protection, but only the island(s) are really capable of holding them in perpetuity. I have seen those who claim they all died on "Barrier Island" (which is, believe it or not, the official name for the island) during the freezes in the 1980s. I have family who have lived continuously on the island since before the moon landing, and that was news to them. I also had a neighbor in Indialantic who'd lived in the same house since the early '80s and kept coconuts the entire time. He never lost a single one to a freeze (though they were damaged by some), but he DID lose them to micro-bursts during hurricanes. Despite the danger from wind and freeze, there were a few large coconuts in our neighborhood that clearly predated the worst freezes of the 1980s. Of course, there is nothing on Brevard's barrier islands that compares to the oldest coconunts to be seen in Pahokee

That line represents 2010 survivors of coconuts.  I was not aware of numerous survivors of 1980's freezes.  That's interesting! 

[Yunder Wækraus]

2 hours ago, Ubuntwo said:

This might be relevant - broadleaf forest zones in Florida:

Accurate with the following changes: the southern and SE shore of Lake Okeechobee was originally a custard apple jungle, a unique forest system that is now completely gone. This ecological zone--found nowhere else in the USA (if, indeed, anywhere) was dominated by custard apple trees which were covered in the now-endangered moon vine and air plants. It was, arguably, the most uniquely tropical floristic forest zone in FL outside of the giant mangroves of extreme S. Florida and the tropical hammocks and larger forest tracks within the grayed-out zone in the above map. For more information about custard apple jungles and moon vines, please see Lawrence E. Will's wonderful book, Cracker History of Okeechobee.

[Yunder Wækraus]

3 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

That line represents 2010 survivors of coconuts.  I was not aware of numerous survivors of 1980's freezes.  That's interesting! 

If you're the in the area, the old man who lived in the same house might still be there. He lives in the first house on the north side of Washington Avenue coming from A1A. I left in January of 2018, so who knows what's happened since then, but I did interview him in about 2016 about the history of coconuts on the island. My cousin's husband used to own a business in beachside sliver of Melbourne (not Melbourne Beach), and he and my cousin were in Satellite Beach by the mid 1980s. They remember the worst freezes (icicles!), but it was not his perception that they lost many coconut palms in the neighborhood. I put more stock in the old Indialantic man's account because he actually had coconuts (and he grew up in the Miami area and would be well aware of major floral changes).

[Jimbean]

Here's a list of species I've found on the barrier islands of Brevard.  There are some forest hammocks that are nearly entirely tropical.  Sabal palmetto and Quercus virginiana are really the only common temperate species. 

Bursera simaruba

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=727

Ficus aurea

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2466

Ficus citrifolia

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3642

Annona glabra

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2172

Myrsine cubana

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3811

Ardisia escallonioides

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=760

Eugenia foetida

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=860

Eugenia axillaris

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2831

Myrcianthes fragrans

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2832

Sideroxylon foetidissimum

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=624

Sideroxylon tenax

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3285

Coccoloba diversifolia

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3579

Coccoloba uvifera

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3791

Citharexylum spinosum

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2182

Chrysobalanus icaco

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2765

Amyris elemifera

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3593

Erythrina herbacea

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3264

Guapira discolor

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2815

Scaevola plumieri

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2179

Psychotria nervosa

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2811

Psychotria tenuifolia

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2240

Avicennia germinans

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=736

Conocarpus erectus

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2807

Forestiera segregate

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=954

Krugiodendron ferreum

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3386

Laguncularia racemosa

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3621

Randia aculeata

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3620

Rhizophora mangle

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3926

Zanthoxylum fagara

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2804

Zanthoxylum clava-herculis

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3891

Exothea paniculate

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3084

Dodonaea viscosa

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2789

Damburneya coriacea

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2836

Clusia rosea

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2180&display=photos

Chrysophyllum oliviforme

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3582

Simarouba glauca

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=606

Quadrella jamaicensis

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2034

Randia aculeata

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3620

Euphorbia tithymaloides

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2395

Drypetes lateriflora

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=627 

[Aceraceae]

South Lake O. 

https://goo.gl/maps/PqpXogqde9AnB44a9

Brand new Feb 2022 Street View from Torry Island. 

https://goo.gl/maps/cYgu6ciXeft47pWS6

Jan 2022 view from the tower with a palm trying to grow in coconut form. 

Too bad the area around there is almost as bad as the towns around the Salton Sea. 

[AnTonY]

You know what's weird? Spanish moss is all over the place in the coastal SE US (i.e. Georgia and Carolinas), as well as Florida down to Tampa Bay. Yet, the stuff is so sparse when you get into the warmer, more humid/rainier climates seen in Miami/tropical Florida.

There's also a strange dearth of spanish moss in a lot of Gulf Coast cities like Houston, Mobile, Pensacola, etc.

[AnTonY]

The goal is to kill off the mid-latitude cyclone, a major factor in why even the best subtropical climates are inferior to true tropical climates (i.e. in additional to long duration dryness). Just look at what happened in Ft. Myers this past January, for instance. Even in Australia, they get big time hail in Brisbane, Coff's Harbour, etc not seen farther north in Cairns. 

[Ubuntwo]

1 minute ago, Aceraceae said:

South Lake O. 

https://goo.gl/maps/PqpXogqde9AnB44a9

Brand new Feb 2022 Street View from Torry Island. 

https://goo.gl/maps/cYgu6ciXeft47pWS6

Jan 2022 view from the tower with a palm trying to grow in coconut form. 

Too bad the area around there is almost as bad as the towns around the Salton Sea. 

Roystonea regia has naturalized in abundance on Kreamer Island, Lake O. I guess they like the muck + microclimate. This is about as close to the south rim of the lake as it gets:

48 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Accurate with the following changes: the southern and SE shore of Lake Okeechobee was originally a custard apple jungle, a unique forest system that is now completely gone. This ecological zone--found nowhere else in the USA (if, indeed, anywhere) was dominated by custard apple trees which were covered in the now-endangered moon vine and air plants. It was, arguably, the most uniquely tropical floristic forest zone in FL outside of the giant mangroves of extreme S. Florida and the tropical hammocks and larger forest tracks within the grayed-out zone in the above map. For more information about custard apple jungles and moon vines, please see Lawrence E. Will's wonderful book, Cracker History of Okeechobee.

The Annona glabra - Ipomoea alba association occurs nowhere else, as far as I can tell. Groves in Southwest Florida and some swamps in the Antilles are somewhat similar but decidedly less tropical in species composition. This little custard apple swamp in Big Cypress is as close as we can get, sans the moon vine! I am adding Cracker History to my reading list 

[Xerarch]

@Ubuntwo is the Annona glabra any good to eat? Is it any more tolerant to cold than it's relatives like soursop or sweetsop? Amazing to have one native to FL.

[Yunder Wækraus]

56 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

Here's a list of species I've found on the barrier islands of Brevard.  There are some forest hammocks that are nearly entirely tropical.  Sabal palmetto and Quercus virginiana are really the only common temperate species. 

Bursera simaruba

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=727

 

Ficus aurea

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2466

 

Ficus citrifolia

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3642

 

Annona glabra

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2172

 

Myrsine cubana

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3811

 

Ardisia escallonioides

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=760

 

Eugenia foetida

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=860

 

Eugenia axillaris

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2831

 

Myrcianthes fragrans

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2832

 

Sideroxylon foetidissimum

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=624

 

Sideroxylon tenax

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3285

Coccoloba diversifolia

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3579

 

Coccoloba uvifera

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3791

 

Citharexylum spinosum

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2182

 

Chrysobalanus icaco

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2765

 

Amyris elemifera

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3593

 

Erythrina herbacea

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3264

 

Guapira discolor

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2815

 

Scaevola plumieri

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2179

 

Psychotria nervosa

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2811

 

Psychotria tenuifolia

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2240

 

Avicennia germinans

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=736

Conocarpus erectus

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2807

 

Forestiera segregate

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=954

 

Krugiodendron ferreum

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3386

 

Laguncularia racemosa

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3621

Randia aculeata

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3620

Rhizophora mangle

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3926

Zanthoxylum fagara

 

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2804

Zanthoxylum clava-herculis

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3891

Exothea paniculate

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3084

Dodonaea viscosa

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2789

Damburneya coriacea

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2836

Clusia rosea

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2180&display=photos

Chrysophyllum oliviforme

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3582

Simarouba glauca

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=606

Quadrella jamaicensis

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2034

Randia aculeata

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3620

Euphorbia tithymaloides

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2395

Drypetes lateriflora

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=627 

Yes, the tropical hardwood + palm hammock across from the visitor center on A1A (just a bit north of Sebastian Inlet) was one of my favorite places to visit. There were big gumbo-limbo trees, which, I suspect, predated the worst freezes of the 1980s (though I could be wrong about that).

[Yunder Wækraus]

27 minutes ago, AnTonY said:

You know what's weird? Spanish moss is all over the place in the coastal SE US (i.e. Georgia and Carolinas), as well as Florida down to Tampa Bay. Yet, the stuff is so sparse when you get into the warmer, more humid/rainier climates seen in Miami/tropical Florida.

There's also a strange dearth of spanish moss in a lot of Gulf Coast cities like Houston, Mobile, Pensacola, etc.

You see it, but, yes, other air plants are more common, and Spanish moss is less overwhelming. Spanish moss is like the American alligator: it's actually subtropical in nature, but Americans think of it as more tropical-adjacent than is actually the case.

[Yunder Wækraus]

16 minutes ago, Ubuntwo said:

Roystonea regia has naturalized in abundance on Kreamer Island, Lake O. I guess they like the muck + microclimate. This is about as close to the south rim of the lake as it gets:

The Annona glabra - Ipomoea alba association occurs nowhere else, as far as I can tell. Groves in Southwest Florida and some swamps in the Antilles are somewhat similar but decidedly less tropical in species composition. This little custard apple swamp in Big Cypress is as close as we can get, sans the moon vine! I am adding Cracker History to my reading list 

Great photo! Yes, I interviewed my Aunt (b. in the Glades in 1940, and she remembered a small piece of undeveloped land and moon vines, but the custard apple jungle was gone 20 years before her birth. With regard to royals: I cannot explain the lack of reports confirming their wild presence in the area, and I suspect their lack would have had more to do with competition from the custard apples and the effects of hurricanes. My uncle's house in South Bay, Florida had a small grove of huge royals that, as my uncle said, were entirely planted by birds. He never planted a single one. (His father had the house built sometime in the very early 1930s.)

[Yunder Wækraus]

24 minutes ago, Ubuntwo said:

Roystonea regia has naturalized in abundance on Kreamer Island, Lake O. I guess they like the muck + microclimate. This is about as close to the south rim of the lake as it gets:

The Annona glabra - Ipomoea alba association occurs nowhere else, as far as I can tell. Groves in Southwest Florida and some swamps in the Antilles are somewhat similar but decidedly less tropical in species composition. This little custard apple swamp in Big Cypress is as close as we can get, sans the moon vine! I am adding Cracker History to my reading list 

Here you go 

[AnTonY]

3 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

You see it, but, yes, other air plants are more common, and Spanish moss is less overwhelming. Spanish moss is like the American alligator: it's actually subtropical in nature, but Americans think of it as more tropical-adjacent than is actually the case.

Perhaps. Apparently, though, the range of spanish moss supposedly goes down through Mexico, Central/South America, and West Indies —lots of unquestionable tropical climates within. I believe I've seen some images of spanish moss drooping from trees in Rio De Janerio's botanical garden.

[Yunder Wækraus]

1 minute ago, AnTonY said:

Perhaps. Apparently, though, the range of spanish moss supposedly goes down through Mexico, Central/South America, and West Indies —lots of unquestionable tropical climates within. I believe I've seen some images of spanish moss drooping from trees in Rio De Janerio's botanical garden.

No doubt. It's probably less that they cannot survive and more that other air plants are equally competitive once you get South of 25 degrees.

[sarasota alex]

4 hours ago, Ubuntwo said:

Roystonea regia has naturalized in abundance on Kreamer Island, Lake O. I guess they like the muck + microclimate. This is about as close to the south rim of the lake as it gets:

They are not really naturalized, but rather recovered or re-established. Roystonea regia native range has historically included most of the Florida peninsula. They grew natively as far north as Putnam County until Florida began to suffer major freezes in the 19th Century. I wonder if they may have survived on the Kreamer Island all along.

[Jimbean]

5 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

Yes, the tropical hardwood + palm hammock across from the visitor center on A1A (just a bit north of Sebastian Inlet) was one of my favorite places to visit. There were big gumbo-limbo trees, which, I suspect, predated the worst freezes of the 1980s (though I could be wrong about that).

I'm certain of that.  I've took some pictures and video of gumbo limbo trees north of the area you are describing of some fairly large specimens.  In south Merritt Island there are some big trees there too.

 

What I find really interesting are the ones popping up further inland.  I've found a number of specimens near or west of I-95 believe it or not.  I'm certain that these are escapees from cultivation however.

[chinandega81]

5 hours ago, Jimbean said:

I'm certain of that.  I've took some pictures and video of gumbo limbo trees north of the area you are describing of some fairly large specimens.  In south Merritt Island there are some big trees there too.

 

What I find really interesting are the ones popping up further inland.  I've found a number of specimens near or west of I-95 believe it or not.  I'm certain that these are escapees from cultivation however.

Gumbo Limbo seem to spread due to bird dropping from what I have noticed. I would think that is how their range expands in Florida. 

[bubba]

I have all of Lawrence Wills numerous books! A treasure trove regarding Lake O, the Glades and the lip of the lake! Great stuff!

[Yunder Wækraus]

1 hour ago, bubba said:

I have all of Lawrence Wills numerous books! A treasure trove regarding Lake O, the Glades and the lip of the lake! Great stuff!

My dad went to school with his grand kid

[AnTonY]

What is it that causes the northeast area of South Florida (i.e. around Jupiter, Ft. Lauderdale, etc) to have higher winter rainfall (hence tropical af rainforest), unlike drier monsoon am in Miami and even drier savannah aw in the rest of South Florida?

[Yunder Wækraus]

3 hours ago, AnTonY said:

What is it that causes the northeast area of South Florida (i.e. around Jupiter, Ft. Lauderdale, etc) to have higher winter rainfall (hence tropical af rainforest), unlike drier monsoon am in Miami and even drier savannah aw in the rest of South Florida?

Perhaps Lake Okeechobee + Gulf Stream?

[greysrigging]

On 2/8/2022 at 4:38 PM, Yunder Wækraus said:

For those who don't know, I was born in S. Florida, where my family has lived for approximately 100 years. We were from the Everglades, but most folks have moved to other parts of Florida. After many years away from my homeland, I returned to a barrier island in Brevard County (solid 10a~10b), where relatives have lived for ~60 years. We grew papaya, coconuts, various palms, etc.--truly tropical plants. I am intensely proud of my Florida heritage and the uniqueness of my state, but I am under no illusions that it is truly tropical. I have spent time in Thailand, Cambodia, the Yucatan, Papua New Guinea, and live in the Wet Tropics of Australia. Nothing in Florida compares to the climate to be found at equivalent elevation and access to ocean water anywhere in the true tropics.)

Except for Townsville ( Brownsville haha ) or as we call it 'Mount Isa-By-Sea', in reference to the dryish dusty mining town 560 miles to the west. Townsville's geography ie orientation of the coastline produces a rather dry climate for a place so deep in the tropics and on the Pacific Ocean.


Mackay  ( 21.14*S )  barely does or does not squeeze into the full tropical Koppen classification, with the mean of the 3 winter months being  just under 18c ( 17.7c actually )

Edited February 10, 2022 by greysrigging
addition to post.

[Yunder Wækraus]

33 minutes ago, greysrigging said:

Except for Townsville ( Brownsville haha ) or as we call it 'Mount Isa-By-Sea', in reference to the dryish dusty mining town 560 miles to the west. Townsville's geography ie orientation of the coastline produces a rather dry climate for a place so deep in the tropics and on the Pacific Ocean.


Mackay  ( 21.14*S )  barely does or does not squeeze into the full tropical Koppen classification, with the mean of the 3 winter months being  just under 18c ( 17.7c actually )

I visited for work last year. It’s not nearly as bad as everyone says it is!

[AnTonY]

12 hours ago, greysrigging said:

Except for Townsville ( Brownsville haha ) or as we call it 'Mount Isa-By-Sea', in reference to the dryish dusty mining town 560 miles to the west. Townsville's geography ie orientation of the coastline produces a rather dry climate for a place so deep in the tropics and on the Pacific Ocean.


Mackay  ( 21.14*S )  barely does or does not squeeze into the full tropical Koppen classification, with the mean of the 3 winter months being  just under 18c ( 17.7c actually )

I know that trade winds tend to blow easterly (i.e. southeasterly in the Southern Hemisphere), making Townsville parallel to their path. But still, you'd think that there'd be perturbations, sea-breeze, etc that would allow Townsville to get in on the ocean moisture (and resultant higher rainfall) from time to time.

Edited February 10, 2022 by AnTonY

[greysrigging]

4 hours ago, AnTonY said:

I know that trade winds tend to blow easterly (i.e. southeasterly in the Southern Hemisphere), making Townsville parallel to their path. But still, you'd think that there'd be perturbations, sea-breeze, etc that would allow Townsville to get in on the ocean moisture (and resultant higher rainfall) from time to time.

Townsville can and does get some periods of intense tropical rainfall and has copped some direct hits by tropical cyclones. Rainfall is highly variable from year to year and often depending on when one visits, it is either a lush tropical green paradise or a dry dusty scrubby wasteland...haha. I was there for a week or so in June 2017 and the City and suburbs were looking very green courtesy of heavy unseasonal rain in May ( about 7" )

Edited February 10, 2022 by greysrigging
addition to post.

[Yunder Wækraus]

8 hours ago, greysrigging said:

Townsville can and does get some periods of intense tropical rainfall and has copped some direct hits by tropical cyclones. Rainfall is highly variable from year to year and often depending on when one visits, it is either a lush tropical green paradise or a dry dusty scrubby wasteland...haha. I was there for a week or so in June 2017 and the City and suburbs were looking very green courtesy of heavy unseasonal rain in May ( about 7" )

My university has a main campus there and a smaller campus up here in Cairns. Our dean decided all members of the college needed to get together, and we were flown down there for two days. They put us up in a nice hotel overlooking the waterfront, and I got to see a bit of town (not much). It wasn't as beautiful as the Cairns area, obviously, but I still liked it and would more than happy to live there (if I had to choose it over most other places).