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Why peat moss sucks and should NEVER be used for palms


Mauna Kea Cloudforest

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1) Once it starts to dry out, it sucks water right out of your palms

2) Once it dries out, it's almost impossible to rewet

3) In the Winter, if you manage to keep it wet, it's the perfect medium to rot the roots right out of your palms

4) If you manage to keep it dry in the Winter like it should be, it will still suck any remaining moisture out of your palm and will be impossible to rewet.

I've lost two palms now because I purchased palms from a nursery that used peat moss in their soil mix. Both palms got plenty of watering, but because i have sandy soil, the peat moss still dried up.

I've been gardening with tropicals for almost 20 years now and the number of plants I have lost both in Summer and Winter because of peat moss is staggering. My cherimoyas used to get Winter root rot in that crap. Now I am loosing palms because I bought palms from nurseries that use peat moss in their potting soil.

To top it off folks are destroying the environment by strip mining this stuff. So when you buy it and use it, you're contributing to the decline of our environment.

If you wonder why one person is successful with a rare palm and the next person isn't, maybe it's because theirs was grown in a soil mix that contained peat moss.

Rant is now over - I still hate peat moss.

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I can see your point about the negatives of peat moss, but is there any chance that some of your cultural practices are to blame as well?

For example: some of these palms and tropicals you speak of shouldn't be allowed to dry out in the first place. If you're watering sufficiently, and via the appropriate method for your substrate, especially during the initial planting phase and following few months, then the peat moss should have never dried out in the first place. Also, once the plant has been in the ground for a few months they usually will grow roots down into the native soil and even if the original root mass is allowed to dry out these new, and/or deeper roots will be able to drink from the wet soil below if it's being properly irrigated. Plus, are you properly mulching? This is essential in helping to retaining even soil moisture. Every pic you post has bare dirt in it. :hmm:

It seems like you're always eager to blame the potting soil, or the palm species, or the nursery you bought it from.

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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If you use a surfactant it will save you a lot of trouble. Potted palms can retain salts/hardness over time and they can be difficult to wet after salts accumulate and then dry out. The surfactant will help rinse the salts out... I use sodium laurel sulfate when this rare condition occurs. Many soaps and shampoos have SLS in them. this used to happen to my potted palms in Arizona a lot, anything over a year in a pot was in need of SLS.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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So the ultimate answer is to leave nature the hell alone, and let it do its thing. But you, me, and everyone else wants to intervene, and whatever we do has a downside. Talk alternatives along with their upsides and downsides so we can pick the lesser of all evils.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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I have gotten palms grown in peat moss before and have used peat moss mixes to grow palms successfully. Palms do love it when it's moist(but not sitting on water or watered too often for the plant and pot size used),they just hate it when continually dry and we certainly hate it when it takes a good while to rewet it without a surfactant! But with proper care,its not a bad growing medium. I do try to not use it much for ecological reasons but its a main ingredient in most potting soil mixes commercially available and coir is not anywhere near as available here.

Btw,for George Sparkman and his plants I have only the best things to say! Great guy and great plants! Despite the distance,I have plants here from him! :)

''To try,is to risk failure.......To not try,is to guarantee it''

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only time I ever use peat moss nowadays is in a mix and even then it's a fairly small percentage, I've opted for coco coir instead of peat moss

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Kenny has the right idea.

Coco-peat, made from coconut fiber is good. Sphagnum peat moss is not. Axel has duly noted the long catalog of horrors.

In theory it's nice to be able to keep everything wet, but in practice, mistakes occur. When I was a kid, I used these things called "one-steps" which were compressed, dried peat, that expanded when you added water to them. I used them to start bedding and tomato plants to set out in the spring. Indoors, they worked great, since it was easy to keep them wet. But, the combination of impatiens and a heat register . . . Bring out your dead! (Clong!)

Use anything but sphagnum peat.

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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when I was doing my raised beds I did a ratio of one part peat, 1 part compost (fine bagged compost), and 1 part bagged soil and it did amazingly well. i had leftover peat moss and used some in different ratios with a lot more peat moss and it did what axel said in that it would clump real bad when dried out and was pretty tough to get to rehydrate completely, from then on only used it as a light amendment

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If you use a surfactant it will save you a lot of trouble. Potted palms can retain salts/hardness over time and they can be difficult to wet after salts accumulate and then dry out. The surfactant will help rinse the salts out... I use sodium laurel sulfate when this rare condition occurs. Many soaps and shampoos have SLS in them. this used to happen to my potted palms in Arizona a lot, anything over a year in a pot was in need of SLS.

Thanks, I will try that and a combo of just flooding the hole and remixing by hand without removing the palm. I bare rooted my pinanga, and that finished it off completely.

I have gotten palms grown in peat moss before and have used peat moss mixes to grow palms successfully. Palms do love it when it's moist(but not sitting on water or watered too often for the plant and pot size used),they just hate it when continually dry and we certainly hate it when it takes a good while to rewet it without a surfactant! But with proper care,its not a bad growing medium. I do try to not use it much for ecological reasons but its a main ingredient in most potting soil mixes commercially available and coir is not anywhere near as available here.

Btw,for George Sparkman and his plants I have only the best things to say! Great guy and great plants! Despite the distance,I have plants here from him! :)

Let's get one thing on record, George Sparkman is a great guy and he's got great plants. I just had bad luck with two of them because of the peat moss in the soil mix. I'd buy from him again in a heartbeat.

I can see your point about the negatives of peat moss, but is there any chance that some of your cultural practices are to blame as well?

For example: some of these palms and tropicals you speak of shouldn't be allowed to dry out in the first place. If you're watering sufficiently, and via the appropriate method for your substrate, especially during the initial planting phase and following few months, then the peat moss should have never dried out in the first place. Also, once the plant has been in the ground for a few months they usually will grow roots down into the native soil and even if the original root mass is allowed to dry out these new, and/or deeper roots will be able to drink from the wet soil below if it's being properly irrigated. Plus, are you properly mulching? This is essential in helping to retaining even soil moisture. Every pic you post has bare dirt in it. :hmm:

It seems like you're always eager to blame the potting soil, or the palm species, or the nursery you bought it from.

Matty, I watered a ton, which is why I am puzzled. Try three times a week! That should be enough. This isn't my fault, it's not George's fault, it's not peat moss' fault. It's just an unfortunate mismatch between my soil and peat moss, there's no one to blame. It seems like you're always eager to blame my character. You and I need to go have a beer, my character is not as lame as you think.

But I stick with my assessment of peat moss, which has nothing to do with blame, the only value of peat moss for palms that I can see is that it's an ideal medium to germinate palm seeds in baggies. My wife hates veggie starts that come in peat moss, same problem, they dry out no matter what she does. Now she bare roots the starts before planting them. I am not the only one who's discovered this about peat moss over the years, it's not just palm gardening, many other types of gardeners have discovered the downside of peat moss.

thats a powerful statment

Man, that avatar is really on fire!

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Axel,

I have seen potting soil that repels water, it beads on it as if it were waxed. This was in Arizona where drying happened very fast and the hard irrigation water led to rapid accumulation of salts. Perhaps this happened to the palm in socal if it was in the pot a couple years. If you dilute sodium laurel sulfate(often called sodium dodecyl sulfate) about 1 tsp per gallon and slowly trickle it over the palm roots then let sit. After 20 minutes slowly rinse with watering can, then repeat. the problem with peat moss is the huge surface area/volume and when it dries it can hold a lot of salts. At this point it just repels water. Also humic acid is a great follower after the SLS as it is a salt chelator and will help remove any residual salts. Having my palms dried in the desert forced me to learn some things. I hope that this helps your palm. If the soil repels water, its very likely the problem.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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I think its the "way you garden" :)

I couldn’t agree more! :greenthumb: I gave up peat moss years and years ago. Organic is the only was to go.

And, the organic potting soil I’ve been using stays moist for a very long time. The ingredients are blend of mature compost, bark, coco fiber, pumice, earthworm castings and organic fertilizers.

The compost is made of local garden pruning’s, food products and vegetable trimmings with small amounts of inert material. Very high quality for good price 1.25 CU. foot bag for 3.99.

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My first batch of Floribunda palms (40) came in 4 years ago and they all had moss on them. I didn't know any better and I left them on. None of those have died. I have 60% sand and 40% silt. It drains around 1.5" an hour i water once a week. I have some other plants that are not planted but they do dry out fast (staghorns) I've never had a problem with it to my knowledge. If the person you bought it from uses peat in their mix and everyone else has had success- not to mention that person keeping things alive and thriving in pots which is much harder to do then in the ground then its not "due to the nursary using peat in their mix". When I went through horticulture school our teacher said mulch is the answer to just about everything. I have planted many palms by setting a 3-5 gal plant on top of a drip tube ( no hole dug ) and pushing mulch around it. The mulch never gets irrigated water and the palms always thrive- despite it only getting watered from the bottom. The top and sides are always dry in the summer ( no rain ). Like Matty said, once the palms roots get beyond the pot size and into the native soil then it should be better.

Do you amend your soil? If I had sand that drained too fast I would dig the biggest hold I could and amend with compost and mulch to hold the moisture in and then top it with at least 4" of mulch. If you have stuff rotting out and have such fast draining soil maybe its that specific plant or that your watering too much in the winter. I have chambyronias on the north side of my place that will hold water for days without draining (totally submerged) and they haven't rotted out.

I'm just brainstorming, I know peat moss sucks for some applications but if cared for properly, stuff shouldn't die because of it

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Grateful to have what I have, Les amis de mes amis sont mes amis!

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Peat moss is not the reason you lost the palms. Burretiokentia is difficult and touchy even in so cal which is a better climate than where you are. Planting a small palm of that species would have probably died in my yard. Your palm just got a fungus from the cold, thats it. As you experiment you will start figuring out what will grow for you and what will not. If a palm is hardy for your area it would not care about that little bit of peat moss in the soil, the roots would grow right past it into the native soil very quickly.

Rock Ridge Ranch

South Escondido

5 miles ENE Rancho Bernardo

33.06N 117W, Elevation 971 Feet

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Aahhh so many posts I've already typed and deleted. You're so frustrating to "talk" with. I asked several questions. Do you wanna answer them or just keep plugging your ears and saying "lalalalala"?

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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La la la la la la la la la means, I looooove you!

Grateful to have what I have, Les amis de mes amis sont mes amis!

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Peat moss is not the reason you lost the palms. Burretiokentia is difficult and touchy even in so cal which is a better climate than where you are. Planting a small palm of that species would have probably died in my yard. Your palm just got a fungus from the cold, thats it. As you experiment you will start figuring out what will grow for you and what will not. If a palm is hardy for your area it would not care about that little bit of peat moss in the soil, the roots would grow right past it into the native soil very quickly.

You may be right, but it's too soon to make that call based on just three months. B. hapala so far is quite happy in my growing season climate, see the other thread. i have a very healthy specimen that grew roots into the native soil no problem, it's growing a new spear and shows no signs of deficiencies. It was planted out in March. Let's revisit the hardiness issue that next Summer, if one or both of my b. hapalas make it or not.

This particular b. hapala issue with the dried out rootball has nothing to do with hardiness, unless it really does have a fungus based on cold stress from George's nursery. I can't rule out the latter, but it was not exposed to cold at my place. And where I planted this particular bugger, 35-40F is about the coldest temp this thing would experience. So if you're telling me b. hapala needs even better than 10b, then this thing doesn't belong anywhere in my garden. We've killed non-tropical veggies in exactly the same way, perfectly adapted plants that just dry out because of the peat moss drying out. Just trying to decouple the hardiness issue from the irrigation issue.

My first batch of Floribunda palms (40) came in 4 years ago and they all had moss on them. I didn't know any better and I left them on. None of those have died. I have 60% sand and 40% silt. It drains around 1.5" an hour i water once a week. I have some other plants that are not planted but they do dry out fast (staghorns) I've never had a problem with it to my knowledge. If the person you bought it from uses peat in their mix and everyone else has had success- not to mention that person keeping things alive and thriving in pots which is much harder to do then in the ground then its not "due to the nursary using peat in their mix". When I went through horticulture school our teacher said mulch is the answer to just about everything. I have planted many palms by setting a 3-5 gal plant on top of a drip tube ( no hole dug ) and pushing mulch around it. The mulch never gets irrigated water and the palms always thrive- despite it only getting watered from the bottom. The top and sides are always dry in the summer ( no rain ). Like Matty said, once the palms roots get beyond the pot size and into the native soil then it should be better.

Do you amend your soil? If I had sand that drained too fast I would dig the biggest hold I could and amend with compost and mulch to hold the moisture in and then top it with at least 4" of mulch. If you have stuff rotting out and have such fast draining soil maybe its that specific plant or that your watering too much in the winter. I have chambyronias on the north side of my place that will hold water for days without draining (totally submerged) and they haven't rotted out.

I'm just brainstorming, I know peat moss sucks for some applications but if cared for properly, stuff shouldn't die because of it

I think you are right, the answer is drip with mulch on top. I've been flooding the palms to water them because my drip system is out of maintenance right now. If I put a dripper right on top of the rootball, I don't think it would have dried out.

Aahhh so many posts I've already typed and deleted. You're so frustrating to "talk" with. I asked several questions. Do you wanna answer them or just keep plugging your ears and saying "lalalalala"?

La la la la la la.... :) Seriously Matty, I really like all your advice when it comes to Palm growing, I find it invaluable. In fact, it's your observation that the b. hapala looks dried out that gave me the clue to dig further. And obviously I must have screwed up in some way. I just go la la la la la la la when you start talking about my behavior - just stick to telling me where I've screwed up in my gardening practice.

My erroneous horticultural practice probably lies in using swales and flooding the swales. It just doesn't work. I have to use drip to get plants started. The swale works when the palm is already established, otherwise the water just runs off the sides. I've skipped the mulch to raise the soil temperature across the board, that's why you don't see any mulch.

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Axel, i know three months is not a lot, but im basing my opinion on the dozens and dozens of hapala that died in so cal. Some right away, others after many years that reached trunk and flower stage. It is not one of the strong growers long term.

Rock Ridge Ranch

South Escondido

5 miles ENE Rancho Bernardo

33.06N 117W, Elevation 971 Feet

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Soil temps might be raised faster in the spring which is great but without insulation for the winter they will get colder. It also does wonders to your soil in so many ways, but I know you know that already. Soil temps are never a concern in the summer but in the winter you can save many things by mulching. Just pull the mulch away from the base of the palm in the winter.

Drip is also key. Flooding not only is a lot of work but it doesnt do a good hob at all. try flooding an area with a water basin and then dig to see how the water has saturated. a one to two gallon dripper on a newly planted palm running for 90 min or so, trice a week in summer will be good enough- plus its all automatic. spend the time and money and fix/install drip. then watch your palms and plants explode without all the continuos man hours of hand watering. I usually dig the hole half the size of the pot and plant the palm, then push mulch around it. That top 4-6" of mulch will stay warm and have lots of air, plus it will act as a buffer so your soil doesn't get compacted. When the roots grow into the mulch your palm will be very happy.

Edit: if your not going to mulch the whole planter and your just going to do it around the palm spread it out about 3' on either side of the trunk. Have you thought about online drip tube like Netafim?

Grateful to have what I have, Les amis de mes amis sont mes amis!

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Axel, i know three months is not a lot, but im basing my opinion on the dozens and dozens of hapala that died in so cal. Some right away, others after many years that reached trunk and flower stage. It is not one of the strong growers long term.

I believe you, that's why b. hapala is not a back bone for my garden. The main stay of my backyard is mostly parajubaea, brahea, sabals, livistona, kentias and rhopies. I just don't want to loose a palm senselessly to just a rootball drying out because of my stupidity.

All the newcal and Madagascar stuff is just icing on the cake, if it grows, great, but I have plenty of back stock that will be ready to take its place when it's time for these to croak.

I have two b. hapalas growing, both under really thick canopy, one is in between two buildings where it's never going to be a freeze that takes it out. But the other one is going to be dead as a doornail in an unusually cold freeze.

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Soil temps might be raised faster in the spring which is great but without insulation for the winter they will get colder. It also does wonders to your soil in so many ways, but I know you know that already. Soil temps are never a concern in the summer but in the winter you can save many things by mulching. Just pull the mulch away from the base of the palm in the winter.

Drip is also key. Flooding not only is a lot of work but it doesnt do a good hob at all. try flooding an area with a water basin and then dig to see how the water has saturated. a one to two gallon dripper on a newly planted palm running for 90 min or so, trice a week in summer will be good enough- plus its all automatic. spend the time and money and fix/install drip. then watch your palms and plants explode without all the continuos man hours of hand watering. I usually dig the hole half the size of the pot and plant the palm, then push mulch around it. That top 4-6" of mulch will stay warm and have lots of air, plus it will act as a buffer so your soil doesn't get compacted. When the roots grow into the mulch your palm will be very happy.

Edit: if your not going to mulch the whole planter and your just going to do it around the palm spread it out about 3' on either side of the trunk. Have you thought about online drip tube like Netafim?

Jastin, you're right, I've put off fixing the drip. The entire garden is a grid of Orbit manifolds on PVC. The idea being that under normal circumstances, anytime I plant something, I can run a 1/8" hose and attach a dripper.

Only trouble is, those stupid Orbit Apollo manifolds clogged up after one year thanks to the hard water we have. The manifolds with just 4 drippers don't clog up at all and are easy to clean. Once the drip is in place, i will just put the mulch down.

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Ok moving on. I wonder how much warmer the soil is getting sans mulch? Obviously the surface will be warmer if the sun is hitting it, but it's probably the same once you go down into the root zone. I'm just speculating, I've never read any research on this. I bet the benefits you'd reap from a healthy mulch layer will far outweigh any soil warming from sun. But I thought you said you had these under fairly heavy canopy? No sun there eh? I

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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Ok moving on. I wonder how much warmer the soil is getting sans mulch? Obviously the surface will be warmer if the sun is hitting it, but it's probably the same once you go down into the root zone. I'm just speculating, I've never read any research on this. I bet the benefits you'd reap from a healthy mulch layer will far outweigh any soil warming from sun.

Right now with the temps we've been getting I doubt not mulching is of any benefit. I will mulch once I fix the drip. Anybody got any good ideas on how to unclog these Apollo manifolds short of buying new ones? Are there better manifolds to buy?

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Ok moving on. I wonder how much warmer the soil is getting sans mulch? Obviously the surface will be warmer if the sun is hitting it, but it's probably the same once you go down into the root zone. I'm just speculating, I've never read any research on this. I bet the benefits you'd reap from a healthy mulch layer will far outweigh any soil warming from sun. But I thought you said you had these under fairly heavy canopy? No sun there eh? I

agreed

Grateful to have what I have, Les amis de mes amis sont mes amis!

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Are you running a filter?

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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Even easier Axel. Take that hard line riser, add a 90 degree 1/2" threaded elbow and put a male nipple on it. Then plug in your drip tube and run it all around your planter. Less work. emitters are in the tube and spaced at 12"/.9 GPH. Looks like thispost-5836-0-51494700-1372736491_thumb.jppost-5836-0-47806800-1372736507_thumb.jp

And you usually install your filter on your anti syphon valve, if you don't you need something that looks like thispost-5836-0-95639400-1372736649_thumb.jp

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Grateful to have what I have, Les amis de mes amis sont mes amis!

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I don't have a filter because the manifolds themselves come with filters. The clogging comes from the hard water which the filters don't resolve.

Jastin, you've given me a great alternative to the manifolds, but it does mean I'd have to install a filter and an anti-syphon valve.

what is that thing you posted? Is that your filter and anti-syphon valve?

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Is that why your garden is SOOOOOOO beautiful Jastin? :drool:

Seriously good post. I need to plagiarize this.

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It is a 150 mesh filter ( can be used on a anti syphon, modified for a hose, and as I have it pictured. The other thing is a pressure regulator. To the very left is a on/off valve so I can shut off the planter when were not growing vegetables.

What are you running instead of an anti syphon? How does the water shut on and off?

Grateful to have what I have, Les amis de mes amis sont mes amis!

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Axel,

Is it just me, or are there others that think like me that there seems to be a trend with some of your topics? Your title to this thread is polluted with toxic negativity. Con tro ver sial? I live here in south Florida and obviously my soils and growing climate is very different than yours. But here, I would speculate that almost every potting soil here has peat in it. SO...mine away. And most of it comes out of huge peat bogs in central and northern Florida. I never heard of a shortage as well. But for somebody like yourself that claims to have 20 years or so of growing palms, you sure do have lots of problems. Just saying.....

Searle Brothers Nursery Inc.

and The Rainforest Collection.

Southwest Ranches,Fl.

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Isn't Peat Moss a great tool for balancing ph in potting mixes? I wouldn't use too much of it but I do like it as a percentage of a soil mix and I don't think Coir has the same acidifying properties.

Perry Glenn

SLO Palms

(805) 550-2708

http://www.slopalms.com

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It is a 150 mesh filter ( can be used on a anti syphon, modified for a hose, and as I have it pictured. The other thing is a pressure regulator. To the very left is a on/off valve so I can shut off the planter when were not growing vegetables.

What are you running instead of an anti syphon? How does the water shut on and off?

I use automatic anti syphon valves that are hooked up to a timer. There are 15 zones to cover all the acreage. It's a lot of work to add filters.

Axel,Is it just me, or are there others that think like me that there seems to be a trend with some of your topics? Your title to this thread is polluted with toxic negativity. Con tro ver sial? I live here in south Florida and obviously my soils and growing climate is very different than yours. But here, I would speculate that almost every potting soil here has peat in it. SO...mine away. And most of it comes out of huge peat bogs in central and northern Florida. I never heard of a shortage as well. But for somebody like yourself that claims to have 20 years or so of growing palms, you sure do have lots of problems. Just saying.....

Jeff I have so many problems in my garden, peat moss is just the tip of the iceberg. I bet I can be at this for another 20 years and still not have it all figured out.

My garden problems: gophers, voles, moles, fungus, root rot, drought, lack of Summer heat, frost, hard freezes, raccoons, fire blight, blossom rot, nutritional deficiencies, difficult neighbors. Pew, the list is long, gardening here is not for the faint of heart. Better move to Florida.

And what's wrong with a little controversy, it's a good way to get discussions going. I get to learn tons this way, other people do as well.

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Axel,

I have seen potting soil that repels water, it beads on it as if it were waxed. This was in Arizona where drying happened very fast and the hard irrigation water led to rapid accumulation of salts. Perhaps this happened to the palm in socal if it was in the pot a couple years. If you dilute sodium laurel sulfate(often called sodium dodecyl sulfate) about 1 tsp per gallon and slowly trickle it over the palm roots then let sit. After 20 minutes slowly rinse with watering can, then repeat. the problem with peat moss is the huge surface area/volume and when it dries it can hold a lot of salts. At this point it just repels water. Also humic acid is a great follower after the SLS as it is a salt chelator and will help remove any residual salts. Having my palms dried in the desert forced me to learn some things. I hope that this helps your palm. If the soil repels water, its very likely the problem.

Where does one find sodium laurel sulfate. Do garden centers commonly carry it?

burt repine

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lol this is the same thread as the last one Axel-negativity about something that most people don't have a problem with, switching what you say mid-stream and dare I say it?? more bs. You say that you learn tons this way, but I don't get the feeling that you are. When Matty said that not mulching was a big part of your problem (and I suspect he's right)-you ignore that and start to complain about how he is making it personal. When Jeff calls you on the negativity-you insult him by saying that you are the only one with growing problems "better move to Florida" ( if you want it easy)....lol if you don't want people to personalize this-then stop doing it first. Seriously-Florida sand-talk about having to deal with nutritional deficiencies. I think that you just react to people and not think first. Then you say its just bs and you didn't mean it. We all have issues that we have to deal with in our climates-but after 20 yrs of growing, maybe you should ask yourself why you haven't figured out why you are still having such serious issues.

Peat is a major ingredient of the commercial growing industry. People would be better off to understand how to water it then just complain about it. Its not like watering soil. If it dries out, then you have to water it slowly (not flood it) and you may have to hit it again with water after an hr or so, but the key thing is to understand that if you water it slowly, it may not seem wet at that moment, but check it again in a few hours and the peat will have throughly absorbed all the water-it just takes more time. Also-when you first plant a palm , or any plant, you have to water the rootball directly and slowly, not just the surrounding soil because the rootball is where all the roots are for the first few months. I strongly suspect that that is why your palm dried up and died.

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Axel, since you are being critical of yourself (which is the only way to be a successful gardener) I would like to add one thing I have noticed. You tend to not see the forest through the trees on issues. Your Hapala has a fungus and will be dead in a few weeks but you are all in on it drying out as the cause so you are not addressing the secondary issue. When that plant dies, it won't be from drying out it will be from rot due to the fact the fungus attacked a weak plant. Just trying to help.

Len

Vista, CA (Zone 10a)

Shadowridge Area

"Show me your garden and I shall tell you what you are."

-- Alfred Austin

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lol this is the same thread as the last one Axel-negativity about something that most people don't have a problem with, switching what you say mid-stream and dare I say it?? more bs. You say that you learn tons this way, but I don't get the feeling that you are. When Matty said that not mulching was a big part of your problem (and I suspect he's right)-you ignore that and start to complain about how he is making it personal. When Jeff calls you on the negativity-you insult him by saying that you are the only one with growing problems "better move to Florida" ( if you want it easy)....lol if you don't want people to personalize this-then stop doing it first. Seriously-Florida sand-talk about having to deal with nutritional deficiencies. I think that you just react to people and not think first. Then you say its just bs and you didn't mean it. We all have issues that we have to deal with in our climates-but after 20 yrs of growing, maybe you should ask yourself why you haven't figured out why you are still having such serious issues.

Peat is a major ingredient of the commercial growing industry. People would be better off to understand how to water it then just complain about it. Its not like watering soil. If it dries out, then you have to water it slowly (not flood it) and you may have to hit it again with water after an hr or so, but the key thing is to understand that if you water it slowly, it may not seem wet at that moment, but check it again in a few hours and the peat will have throughly absorbed all the water-it just takes more time. Also-when you first plant a palm , or any plant, you have to water the rootball directly and slowly, not just the surrounding soil because the rootball is where all the roots are for the first few months. I strongly suspect that that is why your palm dried up and died.

Peat moss sucks, I've already stated initially why, and a couple of other rather knowledgable people have confirmed the drawback of peat moss, especially in California where peat moss tends to suck up water in the rainy season and promote root rot, and do the opposite during the dry season. FYI, I acknowledge my short comings as a gardener. Lack of mulch isn't the issue, it's the problem you outlined, using flooding to irrigate is my problem because peat moss just didn't absorb any of the moisture. But it still doesn't change the fact that peat moss sucks. No back pedaling on my part on this one. Since I can't avoid peat moss unless I eliminate specific nurseries out of my purchase cycles, I need to learn to deal with it. But it doesn't change the fact that peat moss sucks and I will try to avoid it like the plague.

Now everybody settle down, my Florida comment was never intended as an insult, I was just referring to the fact that there are no gophers and plenty of Summer rain in Florida, and no Winter rains, palms grow like weeds down there. I don't think you folks on the East coast even understand the challenges of growing palms in California, and I don't claim to understand what it takes to grow them on the East coast, let alone North Carolina. But I suspect peat moss would be the least of my problems if I gardened in Florida or North Carolina.

Axel, since you are being critical of yourself (which is the only way to be a successful gardener) I would like to add one thing I have noticed. You tend to not see the forest through the trees on issues. Your Hapala has a fungus and will be dead in a few weeks but you are all in on it drying out as the cause so you are not addressing the secondary issue. When that plant dies, it won't be from drying out it will be from rot due to the fact the fungus attacked a weak plant. Just trying to help.

Len, it's just pure wishful thinking on my part, which, considering I spent a chunk of money on a 7g hapala is a legit thing to do. But you may be right, it was already showing some of the yellowing and browning when I bought it, but I thought it was just frost damage based on what George was saying. I hope it's not a fungus, but if it is, at this point since the water issue is resolved, perhaps I should use a systemic fungicide. Any suggestions?

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All my New Caledonian palm deaths have been from rot too and the blackish areas do are more likely fungus caused...Secondary but effective at killing them. What helps a lot is a rocky soil,coarse soil near the palm's base. At least since i started using such a mix,I have been having some long term success with some NewCals of mine. I do have one doing well in clay high in organics too though but that wouldn't be my first choice for soil close to their base. Should be ok for their roots though,I seldom see root rot in them,its mainly stem rot that does them in...

''To try,is to risk failure.......To not try,is to guarantee it''

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Axel, since you are being critical of yourself (which is the only way to be a successful gardener) I would like to add one thing I have noticed. You tend to not see the forest through the trees on issues. Your Hapala has a fungus and will be dead in a few weeks but you are all in on it drying out as the cause so you are not addressing the secondary issue. When that plant dies, it won't be from drying out it will be from rot due to the fact the fungus attacked a weak plant. Just trying to help.

Len, it's just pure wishful thinking on my part, which, considering I spent a chunk of money on a 7g hapala is a legit thing to do. But you may be right, it was already showing some of the yellowing and browning when I bought it, but I thought it was just frost damage based on what George was saying. I hope it's not a fungus, but if it is, at this point since the water issue is resolved, perhaps I should use a systemic fungicide. Any suggestions?

Most likely was frost damage. Then you move it to a new climate, plant it, and it dries out. That is ripe for fungal attack. As a lover of NewCals I have seen that look many of times in my plants. I use Cleary's and copper together. Copper is contact killer and Cleary's the systemic. If you don't have access to Cleary's ask for a broad range systemic fungicide. When in doubt I use fungicides. Like you said, you have some money into the plant so cover all your bases.

Len

Vista, CA (Zone 10a)

Shadowridge Area

"Show me your garden and I shall tell you what you are."

-- Alfred Austin

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Len, I'm sure you have addresed this elsewhere on the forum. But do you treat preventatively? Or only when you suspect an attack? If to prevent, would you mind sharing your regimen? Thanks!

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