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Cold resistant Phoenix?


Grasswing

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Hello everybody,

I wanna discuss Phoenix dactylifera or canariensis and their cold resistance. Do you think that is possible to train a palm from small seedling to survive cold weather (like -15°C)? I wanna try experiment with small Phoenix seedlings: I will let 'em out in colder temperatures to develope cold resistance. Do you think that I have some chance?

Ondra

Prague, Czech Republic

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I dont think its a good idea to leave them out in -15c when they are small. If you want to harden them at say -5c, thatt would probably be fine. these palms get more cold hardy as they age. I think the mature Canary Island Date Palm is good to -10 at least without hardening.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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Thanks, i didn't ment -15 to small seedlings but lowering temperatures every year of their life.

Ondra

Prague, Czech Republic

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I know when El Paso Texas dropped to -13*C a couple years back that fried every Phoenix canariensis in the city including the large mature specimens. By spring, they were all the most lovely shade of beige you've ever seen, and in the fall many were being removed because they were toasted to the core and were dead through and through. -15*C is probably too much for even a mature specimen to endure, but you could wrap and cover them when they are still very small.

Cincinnati, Ohio USA & Mindo, Ecuador

 

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Wow, how is that possible? If it is result of genetic modifying, i am not sure if it is good idea... But i will try hardening canariensis here in Czech Republic and we will see... How could that russian palm bloom and have seeds?

Ondra

Prague, Czech Republic

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I don't know where Krasnoyar is, but Russia is fairly mild next to the Black Sea, zones 8 and 9 near Sochi.

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I don't know where Krasnoyar is, but Russia is fairly mild next to the Black Sea, zones 8 and 9 near Sochi.

Misspelled, Krasnodar is correct and in the area of this supposed palm -20 C occure frequently.

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How is possible that this Phoenix has blooms and seeds? Normal Phoenix needs long 30°C + period to bloom..

Ondra

Prague, Czech Republic

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Continental climate has warm summers and warm months in spring and fall. But many people are very doubtful about its existance. In twenty years I have experienced only three (3) days of frosty and snowy weather, which allows me not to grow many 10b plants which otherwise would have by now flourished and even fruited.

Edited by Phoenikakias
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That palms are and "officaly" dead as of last Winter. Somehow they were killed by -32C Winter attack.

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The temperature dipped down to 6 degrees F (-14.4 C) on January 21st, 1985 in Tallahassee,Florida which killed most of the Phoenix dactylifera, sylvestris and canariensis. However a number of them (of each specie) did survive although the entire crown was killed-it took months to see which ones would survive- some palms that were hauled to a dump later tried to sprout out new growth from their bud despite being dug up (I saw Butias that tried to recover after theyhad been discarded). Normally we do not see temperatures this low-and I doubt that any Phoenix can tolerate repeated exposures to temperatures so low.

Edited by DavidMac
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The temperature dipped down to 6 degrees F (-14.4 C) on January 21st, 1985 in Tallahassee,Florida which killed most of the Phoenix dactylifera, sylvestris and canariensis. However a number of them (of each specie) did survive although the entire crown was killed-it took months to see which ones would survive- some palms that were hauled to a dump later tried to sprout out new growth from their bud despite being dug up (I saw Butias that tried to recover after theyhad been discarded). Normally we do not see temperatures this low-and I doubt that any Phoenix can tolerate repeated exposures to temperatures so low.

Thank you for your opinion. In Florida are these low temperatures rare, aren't they?

Ondra

Prague, Czech Republic

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Tried a phoenix canariensis here in Holland. Without protection it did not survive...(temps from -8 - -17 celsius)

I know someone with a bigger canariensis in Holland but he protects it every year.

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Tried a phoenix canariensis here in Holland. Without protection it did not survive...(temps from -8 - -17 celsius)

I know someone with a bigger canariensis in Holland but he protects it every year.

I think canariensis outside without protection is suicide :D

Ondra

Prague, Czech Republic

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Yes Grasswing-temperatures that low are extremely rare in northern Florida-central and south Florida are milder- it has never dropped below 40F (4.4C)in Key West,Florida in recorded history ;)

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Without a doubt, Phx Canarensis survivability depends on some factors like if the palms growth has been slowed down due to cool fall/winter temperatures vice it being in a normal growing state, like you might find in Florida. Also how quickly temperatures rebound during the day after a hard freeze.

I have a PC that I planted in southeastern Arizona that has survived numerous bouts of freezing temperatures to as low as 3F. The crown is totally burnt and it does take a full season (or more) to fully regain the majestic crown but it continues to grow some 42 years later. This palm isn't an oddity, for there are hundereds of PC planted throughout that town and the region in fact, that have survived.

In my opinion, it came from the combination of the palms hardiness, temperatures rebounding during the day following the freeze and the palms growth having slowed down with the cooler/colder temperatures of the proceeding months.

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Jv in San Antonio Texas / Zone 8/extremes past 29 yrs: 117F (47.2C) / 8F (-13.3C)

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Andrew - I don't think you can train a palm to be cold hardy by slowly exposing it to more colder temperatures each year. Some plants of the same species might be more cold hardy than others just by variability. If a particular species is marginal for your normal minimum temperatures, you might want to plant several, expecting most to die but maybe getting lucky with a long term survivor.

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Don't think they will survive temperatures like that, even with hot summers.

I do grow a Phoenix canariensis since 2004 here and it's still alive and growing fast. Yes, I do protect the palm but also not that extreme. Tide the plant up and then build a shelter around it that it stayed dry. Before the colder winters came that was the only thing that I did but I rarely saw temperatures below -3C and -6C was my coldest. The last few winters (maybe our new ones, who knows?) where much much colder because transport cold, that pushed my microclimate away. I have seen some freaking low temperatures the last few winters, record cold temperatures like whole Holland does. I need to use a heater a few times, but it has seen frost a lot!

Can be for sure, but it has seen temperatures from -7/-8C I guess and some freezing days as well. It had some leaf damage some winters ago and that start with that kind of temperatures. Specially at night is has seen loads of freezes. Proberly I have been lucky that I planted it in 2004 so it had some good years to grow before the colder winters came. It's much bigger now as well, that will help as well to survive the cold.

Southwest

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I have one at my lake cabin that survived 10 deg, it took a whole season to come back and that is on the water with a good micro.i had one in the front yard that did not make it. it can be touch and go.

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  • 3 months later...

P. dactylifera is the hardiest. I'd go for hybrids of that and canariensis, reclinata and robelinii. The hardiness genes are often dominant. As well they have to be selected for. Some cultivars of plants have already had this done. I know of Magnolia grandiflora "Edith Bogue", and many of the Sabals and Oleander offered by Plant Delights Nursery and others that have been selected to survive as far north as coastal NJ and St. Louis.

Brian Bruning

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  • 9 years later...

In my opinion and most importantly experience. If you grow plants from seeds in your local climate in makes them more hardy to your conditions in general. But there are a lot of factors you have to take into account. First of all: If you sow a 100 seeds of some plant you expose them as best as you can to your normal (not extreme) conditions and you can already pick out the strongest and best growing plants. Then you can harden them not only to frost but to humidity or drought in most cases. BUT! This only works to a certain extend. So this only makes sense if you try to grow something that is already borderline to your climate so let's say your winters are only a bit too cold for a long term growing of CIDP then it could make sense. And as people mentioned before it all depends on your specific climate. Not just the lowest temperature. If most winters are mild enough to not damage your plant it would make sense, and it is worth a try even if you get some extremes every 10-20 years. I'm doing this with all experimental plants where there is not much data and everything that is not hardy in my zone but almost. And with the example of CIDP. When you buy one and it's grown either in a green house or in a very warm region and you plant it out it's most likely that it's very frost tender whereas your local grown ones from seed can handle at least some amount of cold.

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Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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Think what kills palms in the cold.

The solutions within the cells freeze, expand, and rupture the cell walls. So in an inorganic medium, how would we resolve this? We would look to add a solute that would disrupt the solution's ability to crystallize or change phase. That is key in organisms as well. How do we introduce minerals for metabolic uptake that is non toxic, yet prevents aqueous solutions in the cells from "freezing"?

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6 hours ago, SeanK said:

Think what kills palms in the cold.

The solutions within the cells freeze, expand, and rupture the cell walls. So in an inorganic medium, how would we resolve this? We would look to add a solute that would disrupt the solution's ability to crystallize or change phase. That is key in organisms as well. How do we introduce minerals for metabolic uptake that is non toxic, yet prevents aqueous solutions in the cells from "freezing"?

Oh there is a good point in there because one thing you can do to harden you palm trees is to give them a winter fertilizer in autmn. This will strengthen the cells. Only helps a bit but it helps.

Yes it's me Hortulanus 😂

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Incredible survival rate of CIDP in El Paso, Tx through 2011 when the saw 0f and 3f on consecutive. A lot of El Paso is captured in late summer(2011) six months after the freeze on Google street view making this easily provable.  I can hardy find any dead or even removed. Just one example. 

A pair even survived -10f in Alamogordo NM (2011).

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