Seedlings from Variegated Rhapis excelsa

[Phil]

I have large, mature plants of Variegated Rhapis excelsa in our greenhouses.  They are un-named varieties.  Low and behold, a female plant set several hundred seeds.  They are germinating now.  There were several other mature similar variegated plants nearby as well as lots of scattered species of Rhapis all over the place.  So, here's the question: Will the seedlings be variegated?  Yes, they did germinate and the the first tiny leaf (as expected) is green.  I have talked to a few "experts" with variegated Rhapis and they say "no", they won't be variegated.  They quote from Hollenberg's book.  So, I read it again and it can be interpreted in more than one way.  But, from experience, are there people out there that can answer this question?

Phil

[jdapalms]

Phil,

I did a batch a seed from a varigated Rhapis about 10 years ago and I did not get one plant varigated.

Jerry

[Howeadypsis]

I think in order to propagate variegated plants you have to use cuttings or splittings. Having said that some plants, lie Sanseveria, will not produce the variegation if a cutting is struck from it.

I wish I could get my Schefflera to go all green as Im not a fan of random variegation

[Zac in NC]

Phil- I think the probability is higher to get variegation, as its a random mutation to begin with that theoretically could be passed down genetically . But I don't know if you'll get any more variegated offspring than if you were germinating several thousand regular excelsa seeds. Its a genetic crap shoot.

Zac

[amazon exotics]

Some think it's genetic ? Some think it's viral ? It will be interesting to here other thoughts on this subject.  ???

[Wai`anae Steve]

(Howeadypsis @ Jan. 26 2007,13:19)

QUOTE

I think in order to propagate variegated plants you have to use cuttings or splittings. Having said that some plants, lie Sanseveria, will not produce the variegation if a cutting is struck from it.

I wish I could get my Schefflera to go all green as Im not a fan of random variegation

I have taken cuttings from variegated Sanseverias and sometimes you do get a new variegated plant.

[Howeadypsis]

hmmm,interesting. conventional wisdom says this doesn't work plus i've read in many books and heard on several websites that it doesn't. what species of sans do you have?

[aussiearoids]

I know several breeders of Bromeliads , and if the mother plant has variegation actually on the flowers,  a high % of the seedlings are variegated . BUT it is very rare to find the variegation on the flowers , one particular clone of Neoregelia carolineae has it and this is the main parent of many of the variegated plants so popular now . Growing seeds from crosses of the hybrid plants give very very few if any variegated plants . Variegation is very common in the Bromeliad family , occuring in nearly every type , I just picked out a few variegated seedlings from a batch of Aechmea blanchetiana  HYBRIDS . Seems that variegation is very rare in Palms occuring mainly in Rhapis .

[sebastian]

Some think it's genetic ? Some think it's viral ? It will be interesting to here other thoughts on this subject.

We did talk about this once before and came up with that there is two types of varigation (forgot the proper names, someone will know)

Viral= that can change and even vanish during the life of the plant and is ofen just lighter greens not whites or yellows.

Genetic=The better one that usaully looks better and is there to stay.

I agree the chances of any of the palms being varigated is low but you would think higher than from a non varigated plant but I really dont know.

What relly confuses me is why it is so common for foxy ladys to be varigated???

[amazon exotics]

I've got a heavly varigated R. rivularis. A trait you don't see very often in Ravenea. I would figure in the case of foxy's that their varigation is viral due to the crossing of two different species. What would be the case in the Ravenea?

[Phil]

Perhaps a good way to look at it is this way:

Will seeds from a variegated mother have a higher chance of giving variegated offspring than seeds from a non-variegated mother?  I would suspect yes, although I don't know of studies proving this with palms.  Remember, seeds from a "watermelon" Chambeyronia seem to be more likely to give the watermelon trait to the offspring.  And, that's a specific type of variegation.

Phil

[sebastian]

Yes true Phil.

I know with foxy ladys the varigation takes a few days to show.

Is this the case with all varigated palms?

Perhaps this could be another clue to the type of varigation.

[eastern.nurseries]

Phil,

Certain variegated rhapis excelsa are better producers of variegated seedlings than others. You may not see any variegation in your seedlings for some time. I've had to wait until the third to fifth leaflet emerges to see any variegation and quite often it isn't very vivid or obvious but can be made to produce a high quality cane! Of the variegated rhapis excelsa seedlings I have produced over the years, so far only one has produced a cane that is IMO of 'high quality' (a nishiki type) but I have a few others that may have potential. In particular a white striped number!

[JD in the OC]

Update for this thread:

While at Phil's barbeque late last month, one of his workers brought out the community tray with seedlings newly sprouted from the variegated lady palm.  We found at least one seedling with an obvious stripe on its eophyll.  Time will tell what the other seedlings do.

[Phil]

Justen,

It appears that at least two (evidence on smallest leaves) are going to be variegated.  That's two out of about 40 seedlings.  They're little guys, working on their second leaf but still only about an inch tall.  Jon, an expert on the subject, mentioned more might show with time.  We will see.  The original point of this thread was the question of variegation from seeds from a variegated mother plant.  I think spontaneous development of variegation from seeds of a green mother plant would be that rare; one in ten thousand type incidence.  But, from an already variegated mother, I think it's going to be a lot higher.

Phil

[eastern.nurseries]

Phil, You mention in your first post that they are ' un-named' varieties, could they be some of the early Japanese types like Ayanishiki or Zuikonishiki?

[DoomsDave]

Hmm.

A fascinating question!

A lot depends on what causes the variegation.

Variegated "broken" tulips stripings are caused by a virus.  Seedlings from infected plants don't get the virus and look the way the parents would look if they weren't infected.

From what Phil describes, the variegation in the rhapis may indeed be genetic.

I'll be curious to see how many more turn out to be variegated.

dave

[eastern.nurseries]

Dave, Japanese researchers have shown the variegation in Rhapis to be caused by a mycoplasma-like organism [MLO] or put simply, a virus

[DoomsDave]

(eastern.nurseries @ Aug. 09 2007,17:58)

QUOTE

Dave, Japanese researchers have shown the variegation in Rhapis to be caused by a mycoplasma-like organism [MLO] or put simply, a virus

Hmm.  So how did it end up in the seeds?

That said, I know that palms are not tulips, but still . . . .

Hmm.

[eastern.nurseries]

Dave, The MLO can infect green Rhapis and the degree of susceptibility varies with parents [Gyokuho has never produced a variegated cane] Zuikonishiki on the other hand is a good producer of variegated seedlings because in certain years it is hermaphrodite, this makes infection easy

[Phil]

Jon,

I sold the mother plant after collecting the seeds.  We usually have a few big variegated Rhapis around, sometimes more, sometimes less.  I don't know the variety of the one that gave seeds.  But, I'll keep everyone posted on the seedlings as the years go by.  Also, I have no idea if the male was another variegated or not.

Phil

[DoomsDave]

(Phil @ Aug. 09 2007,22:21)

QUOTE

Jon,

I sold the mother plant after collecting the seeds.  We usually have a few big variegated Rhapis around, sometimes more, sometimes less.  I don't know the variety of the one that gave seeds.  But, I'll keep everyone posted on the seedlings as the years go by.  Also, I have no idea if the male was another variegated or not.

Phil

Hmm.

Maybe do some experimental pollinating when the opportunity arises?

A controlled experiment might yield some fascinating insights . . . .

dave

[eastern.nurseries]

Way ahead of you Dave.