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Let's say I'm crazy enough to plant a Cyrtostachys renda in the ground..


rprimbs

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I've got a couple of little Cyrtostachys renda's in one gallon pots. I've got the urge to try planting one in the ground. I was thinking that I would cover it with a little temporary greenhouse. But I'm unsure of how to heat it during the winter. I don't want the heater to dry things out so much that the plant will suffer from a lack of humidity. I am above the frost line so the soil doesn't freeze around here, but should I also put some heater cables in the soil around the plant?

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I'm tempted because I've got the plants out in full sun -- with no protection -- and they are doing fine. It hasn't really gotten cold here, and it doesn't get super cold here, so I think that the protection I would need would be minimal. I'm thinking a little "greenhouse" over the plant and a little tiny space heater.

2779268710066947068S600x600Q85.jpg

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To quote wiser souls than I: "Put down the shovel and back away from the palm."

Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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Does not matter what you try, even a heated tent, that is one species that will die outside in so cal.

Rock Ridge Ranch

South Escondido

5 miles ENE Rancho Bernardo

33.06N 117W, Elevation 971 Feet

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R... general feeling is sub 50F for any extended period is death around here.. prepared to keep it that warm or more?

Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

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If you are willing to basically construct a (heated and humidified) greenhouse-like structure around the palm, I am sure it could be done. I would think this would be easier to pull-off in, say, Central Florida vs. S. California due to humidity issues and summer low temps. In my locale, I would only have to have the structure in place for 4 months of the year (at most), whereas in California, it would have to be up for most of the year, and humidity would always be an issue without the structure. If you can spare the expense, then go for it.

-Michael

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Does not matter what you try, even a heated tent, that is one species that will die outside in so cal.

Ahh man.. Gary you've got almost exactly the same soil, exposure, and micro-climate as I do so maybe I shouldn't try it. It would probably work out as badly as my attempt to grow mangosteens and durians..

But it's fun to dream!

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There are TWO stumbling blocks to growing Cyrtostachys renda anywhere outside of it’s particular comfort zone….

…of course, one is temperature, although much has erroneously been made of it’s supposed threshold….it can take bone chilling cold down to 40 degrees for a very brief period and live.…..but give it a comparatively toasty 49 degrees for anything more than 72 hrs and it will die a slow mushy death. :(

But what seems to be ignored is the palms other caveat: It loves water! It certainly is a lover of hydric environmental conditions…it might be a stretch to call it a true hydrophyte since that involves a number of different requirements in plant structure, but who cares??? :huh:

Even if you provide a thermal column extending down into the root zone and well above the crown, your next task would be to build a pond and plop the sucker right in the middle.

Now I am no engineer, but that sounds like a greenhouse with a pond in the middle….jes sayin’…… :)

Rusty

Rusty Bell

Pine Island - the Ex-Pat part of Lee County, Fl , USA

Zone 10b, life in the subs!...except when it isn't....

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rprimbs,

How were you able to grow them so far? They look healthy.

I don't know I haven't done anything special. I bought them on Ebay and they were shipped as liners from Hawaii. I just repotted them in one gallon pots and I water them about once or twice a week. I don't know.. it's crazy but they seem to be reasonably vigorous growers for me. I did move them out of the full sun for a little while when they were starting to look a little sunburnt.

I've got them in a sort of tropical planting mix:

1 part peat moss

1 part perlite

1 part orchid bark (Except I used cocoa hulls instead of orchid bark.)

Now I'm thinking of planting them in bottom watering pots and keeping them inside for the winter. I'll stick some tape over the watering hole so that I don't get spiders living in there.

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I'm envious. I've got a handful growing very slowly indoors.

I water mine twice a day and they get fluorescent light 12 hours a day (before that they didn't budge).

Definitely a chore but hopefully some day they'll trunk.

Of the same batch I had some growing outside in a misted shady area summer before last.

They looked great until temps dropped into the forties and they all died.

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Don't these die almost perfectly at 50 degrees? I think youde have better luck with a coconut unsure.gif

"it's not dead it's sleeping"

Santee ca, zone10a/9b

18 miles from the ocean

avg. winter 68/40.avg summer 88/64.records 113/25

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I'd say larger (healthy) specimens can survive brief dips to 40F and can be undamaged from brief 45F temps. Such specimens certainly will not die from 50F unless prolonged.

-Michael

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rprimbs,

How were you able to grow them so far? They look healthy.

I don't know I haven't done anything special. I bought them on Ebay and they were shipped as liners from Hawaii. I just repotted them in one gallon pots and I water them about once or twice a week. I don't know.. it's crazy but they seem to be reasonably vigorous growers for me. I did move them out of the full sun for a little while when they were starting to look a little sunburnt.

I've got them in a sort of tropical planting mix:

1 part peat moss

1 part perlite

1 part orchid bark (Except I used cocoa hulls instead of orchid bark.)

Now I'm thinking of planting them in bottom watering pots and keeping them inside for the winter. I'll stick some tape over the watering hole so that I don't get spiders living in there.

Were you growing these indoors or outdoors?

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I'd say larger (healthy) specimens can survive brief dips to 40F and can be undamaged from brief 45F temps. Such specimens certainly will not die from 50F unless prolonged.

-Michael

What about having them as house plants? Will lack of needed humidity kill the palm?

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You have 2 palms, do this experiment with one.

You learn always when you do experiments with palms not good for your zone.

To do some experiments is one part very fun of growing palms only be ready to lose it.

Do the experimeent and let us know. I think it is more better if you plant in the next spring for the palm to grow one summer in the ground.

TEMP. JAN. 21/10 C (69/50 F), AUG. 29/20 C (84/68 F). COASTAL DESERT, MOST DAYS MILD OR WARM, SUNNY AND DRY. YEARLY PRECIPITATION: 210 MM (8.2 INCHES). ZONE 11 NO FREEZES CLOSE TO THE OCEAN.

5845d02ceb988_3-copia.jpg.447ccc2a7cc4c6

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Okay I'm not actually going to plant them outside. I could cover them with a little greenhouse and get a little heater and a humidifier and probably with a lot of work and attention I could get them through the winter. But if I actually succeeded I would have spent a lot of money for a single palm that probably wouldn't look so great. And I could have spent that same money on all sorts of cool Dypsis -- that don't require fanatical treatment.

So I'm going to actually grow them indoors as houseplants. The two I've got have never been grown indoors, and believe it or not they have taken weather down to forty with no ill effects. My unscientific opinion is that tropical plants have special potting mix requirements in order to root properly and have any sort of hardiness at all.

I've tried growing durians and mangosteens in store bought potting mix -- and it was a struggle to keep them alive for more than a couple of months. I've tried them in sandy soil with compost mixed in -- and they died in under a month. Then I decided to try them in a special potting mix. I wanted the mix to be acidic and free of "salts" (Large molecules -- Na+, K+, Ca+, Mg2+, Cl-, -- that migrate through the plant and end up in the leaves where they foul up transpiration, and result in "salt burn"). I've heard that a good tropical mix is peat moss, perlite, and orchid bark. However I was concerned that the "orchid bark" might contain salts so I tried to figure out something that would I could replace it with that would have tropical origins -- and I realized that cocoa shell mulch might be the perfect thing. Cocoa shell mulch tends to get a mold on it and I figured that the mold might even be beneficial.

When I tried growing durians and mangosteens in the peat moss, perlite, and cocoa shell mix they did GREAT! The durian did so well that it grew over a foot in a pot during the summer and went from a small one gallon container to filling a fifteen gallon with roots (I brilliantly planted it in the ground, covered it with a temporary greenhouse, and it died..). The mangosteens grew great as well. But they also died during the winter.. This was in Encinitas ("Leucadia") CA.

Anyway I'm going to try growing my lipstick palms in "self-watering" (bottom watering) pots as house plants this winter. The challenge is going to be the humidity but I'm not entirely convinced that they need as much humidity if their roots are happy. I haven't been overly watering the plants anyway. And I have a hunch that I'm going to succeed. If I do and if I'm actually on to something with my potting mix theory -- rather than just being overly hopeful -- then these might not be so hard to grow as potted plants here.

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Here's a picture of the durian tree that I grew in my special potting mix.

2611632000066947068S600x600Q85.jpg

And here's a picture of the mangosteens.

2399513910066947068S600x600Q85.jpg

I had potted them in large garbage cans. I was expecting them to make it and I wanted them to be able to grow big without getting their roots disturbed.

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When I was a kid, I threw my brand new boomerang out to sea. I just assumed it would come back. angry.gif

Since I don't know what I'm doing the odds are against me. But you never know!

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Hey Everyone, Palmlover turned me onto this topic and I have to comment!

rprimbs, go for it! I am planning on trying it myself but it sounds like you might beat me to the punch so I'll tell you what I have leaned and succeeded with so far to give you the best odds.

I am a huge researcher when it comes to new palms. When I was looking into getting a Cyrtostachys renda about 4 years ago I stumbled across a PDF article that talked about the reason that C.renda were so tough in cold weather conditions. The article when on to talk about a potentially fatal fungus that the C.renda always has living within itself BUT the fungus stays dormant in temperatures over 70'F. So once the temps drop below 70'F the fungus starts to become active and the plant can fight it off as long as the temps come back up. If the temps go below 50'F the fungus goes crazy and will kill the tree very quickly. So basically they were implying that the tree itself is fairly cold hardy, it's the fungus that kills it, so if you can control the fungus the tree will live in fairly cold conditions. The article said you need to use a fungicide once a month during the months that drop below 70'F. The fungicide you use needs to be a Mancozeb based (same as Dithane based) fungicide.

I got my C.renda as a small seedling about 4 years ago. The fungicide I found is made by Southern AG and is called Dithane M-45. As of now the tree is doing great in a 5g pot and is about two feet tall. I do keep it as an inside plant but my heater only come on at 55'F so my house is usually on the cold side. I'm so happy about how the tree is doing I want to get another one to try this outside but have yet to do so.

rprimbs, as I said before, go for it! just let me know how it works out for you because I'm totally interested to see the results.

Jerod

Jerod

SurfCityPalms.com

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Hey Everyone, Palmlover turned me onto this topic and I have to comment!

rprimbs, go for it! I am planning on trying it myself but it sounds like you might beat me to the punch so I'll tell you what I have leaned and succeeded with so far to give you the best odds.

I am a huge researcher when it comes to new palms. When I was looking into getting a Cyrtostachys renda about 4 years ago I stumbled across a PDF article that talked about the reason that C.renda were so tough in cold weather conditions. The article when on to talk about a potentially fatal fungus that the C.renda always has living within itself BUT the fungus stays dormant in temperatures over 70'F. So once the temps drop below 70'F the fungus starts to become active and the plant can fight it off as long as the temps come back up. If the temps go below 50'F the fungus goes crazy and will kill the tree very quickly. So basically they were implying that the tree itself is fairly cold hardy, it's the fungus that kills it, so if you can control the fungus the tree will live in fairly cold conditions. The article said you need to use a fungicide once a month during the months that drop below 70'F. The fungicide you use needs to be a Mancozeb based (same as Dithane based) fungicide.

I got my C.renda as a small seedling about 4 years ago. The fungicide I found is made by Southern AG and is called Dithane M-45. As of now the tree is doing great in a 5g pot and is about two feet tall. I do keep it as an inside plant but my heater only come on at 55'F so my house is usually on the cold side. I'm so happy about how the tree is doing I want to get another one to try this outside but have yet to do so.

rprimbs, as I said before, go for it! just let me know how it works out for you because I'm totally interested to see the results.

Jerod

Jerod, I use Dimethene-45 on my lipsticks and spray them once per month from late October through March (I read the same article). But I still take them indoors when nights fall below 45-50. If days don't rise above 65 they all stay indoors until the cold front departs and days go above 70. It's important that the cold nights are followed quickly by a fast rise in daytime temp, usualy but not always the case in SWFL. Fungicides aside, I think this tropical palm, like many others, shuts down when faced with cold nights/chilly days. I use the mancozeb as added protection but would never leave this palm outside during cold spells, even though I have to haul two 4-footers and a 6-footer in and out; 45F is the lowest I tolerate for them.

I smartened up a bit and bought 4-wheel dollies on sale at Harbor Freight. I put large potted palms on them, which makes moving them much easier.

Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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Hey Everyone, Palmlover turned me onto this topic and I have to comment!

rprimbs, go for it! I am planning on trying it myself but it sounds like you might beat me to the punch so I'll tell you what I have leaned and succeeded with so far to give you the best odds.

I am a huge researcher when it comes to new palms. When I was looking into getting a Cyrtostachys renda about 4 years ago I stumbled across a PDF article that talked about the reason that C.renda were so tough in cold weather conditions. The article when on to talk about a potentially fatal fungus that the C.renda always has living within itself BUT the fungus stays dormant in temperatures over 70'F. So once the temps drop below 70'F the fungus starts to become active and the plant can fight it off as long as the temps come back up. If the temps go below 50'F the fungus goes crazy and will kill the tree very quickly. So basically they were implying that the tree itself is fairly cold hardy, it's the fungus that kills it, so if you can control the fungus the tree will live in fairly cold conditions. The article said you need to use a fungicide once a month during the months that drop below 70'F. The fungicide you use needs to be a Mancozeb based (same as Dithane based) fungicide.

I got my C.renda as a small seedling about 4 years ago. The fungicide I found is made by Southern AG and is called Dithane M-45. As of now the tree is doing great in a 5g pot and is about two feet tall. I do keep it as an inside plant but my heater only come on at 55'F so my house is usually on the cold side. I'm so happy about how the tree is doing I want to get another one to try this outside but have yet to do so.

rprimbs, as I said before, go for it! just let me know how it works out for you because I'm totally interested to see the results.

Jerod

Jerod, I use Dimethene-45 on my lipsticks and spray them once per month from late October through March (I read the same article). But I still take them indoors when nights fall below 45-50. If days don't rise above 65 they all stay indoors until the cold front departs and days go above 70. It's important that the cold nights are followed quickly by a fast rise in daytime temp, usualy but not always the case in SWFL. Fungicides aside, I think this tropical palm, like many others, shuts down when faced with cold nights/chilly days. I use the mancozeb as added protection but would never leave this palm outside during cold spells, even though I have to haul two 4-footers and a 6-footer in and out; 45F is the lowest I tolerate for them.

I smartened up a bit and bought 4-wheel dollies on sale at Harbor Freight. I put large potted palms on them, which makes moving them much easier.

That makes sense. Personally I'd still try it if I had palms to spare, but that's me, this year I'm putting in soil warmers and taking a shot at a Cocos nucifera, so maybe next year I'll try the lipstick. I live in So Cal about 2 miles from the beach so we don't really cold fronts that stay too long. Also, I like trying new things, you never know unless you try.

Jerod

SurfCityPalms.com

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You never know until you try it! I have an Areca Verstiaria Maroon form that I bought from Bill. I am planning on planting it in the ground this coming spring. I found a place in my garden that gets filtered light and has a nice canopy from my Kentia. I been told they wont work in my area but if you go to Ralph's house, he has one that is over 20 years in the ground! I am looking for a Cyrtostachys renda big enough to try to plant it in the same general area. The reason for my madness is that I have heard from several people that it can be done with the right conditions....worst that happens is I loose a palm, but I will gain a lot of experience in the process!

Edited by Palmlover
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You never know until you try it! I have an Areca Verstiaria Maroon form that I bought from Bill. I am planning on planting it in the ground this coming spring. I found a place in my garden that gets filtered light and has a nice canopy from my Kentia. I been told they wont work in my area but if you go to Ralph's house, he has one that is over 20 years in the ground! I am looking for a Cyrtostachys renda big enough to try to plant it in the same general area. The reason for my madness is that I have heard from several people that it can be done with the right conditions....worst that happens is I loose a palm, but I will gain a lot of experience in the process!

Night and day difference between Areca vestiaria and Cyrtostachys renda!

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The palm at Ralph's house is in his green house. Very different from being outdoors. Good luck to you for pushing the envelope!

Joe

Huntington Beach, CA

USDA Zone 10a/10b

Sunset Zone 24

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Hey Everyone, Palmlover turned me onto this topic and I have to comment!

rprimbs, go for it! I am planning on trying it myself but it sounds like you might beat me to the punch so I'll tell you what I have leaned and succeeded with so far to give you the best odds.

I am a huge researcher when it comes to new palms. When I was looking into getting a Cyrtostachys renda about 4 years ago I stumbled across a PDF article that talked about the reason that C.renda were so tough in cold weather conditions. The article when on to talk about a potentially fatal fungus that the C.renda always has living within itself BUT the fungus stays dormant in temperatures over 70'F. So once the temps drop below 70'F the fungus starts to become active and the plant can fight it off as long as the temps come back up. If the temps go below 50'F the fungus goes crazy and will kill the tree very quickly. So basically they were implying that the tree itself is fairly cold hardy, it's the fungus that kills it, so if you can control the fungus the tree will live in fairly cold conditions. The article said you need to use a fungicide once a month during the months that drop below 70'F. The fungicide you use needs to be a Mancozeb based (same as Dithane based) fungicide.

I got my C.renda as a small seedling about 4 years ago. The fungicide I found is made by Southern AG and is called Dithane M-45. As of now the tree is doing great in a 5g pot and is about two feet tall. I do keep it as an inside plant but my heater only come on at 55'F so my house is usually on the cold side. I'm so happy about how the tree is doing I want to get another one to try this outside but have yet to do so.

rprimbs, as I said before, go for it! just let me know how it works out for you because I'm totally interested to see the results.

Jerod

Jerod, I use Dimethene-45 on my lipsticks and spray them once per month from late October through March (I read the same article). But I still take them indoors when nights fall below 45-50. If days don't rise above 65 they all stay indoors until the cold front departs and days go above 70. It's important that the cold nights are followed quickly by a fast rise in daytime temp, usualy but not always the case in SWFL. Fungicides aside, I think this tropical palm, like many others, shuts down when faced with cold nights/chilly days. I use the mancozeb as added protection but would never leave this palm outside during cold spells, even though I have to haul two 4-footers and a 6-footer in and out; 45F is the lowest I tolerate for them.

I smartened up a bit and bought 4-wheel dollies on sale at Harbor Freight. I put large potted palms on them, which makes moving them much easier.

That makes sense. Personally I'd still try it if I had palms to spare, but that's me, this year I'm putting in soil warmers and taking a shot at a Cocos nucifera, so maybe next year I'll try the lipstick. I live in So Cal about 2 miles from the beach so we don't really cold fronts that stay too long. Also, I like trying new things, you never know unless you try.

Plant the cocos in sand 90% in full sun and you dont need warmers for the soil. If the soil drys fast this is what is important. The problem in california is the soil of clay. I have 10 years doing experiments with cocos nucifera en baja california my cocos nucifera i plant in sand in Tijuana in 2006 15 kilometers from the ocean is now 3.5 meters high. It grows in the winter ! Put copper on it after days of much rain. The cocos in newport beach is not far from you...it is in sand.

TEMP. JAN. 21/10 C (69/50 F), AUG. 29/20 C (84/68 F). COASTAL DESERT, MOST DAYS MILD OR WARM, SUNNY AND DRY. YEARLY PRECIPITATION: 210 MM (8.2 INCHES). ZONE 11 NO FREEZES CLOSE TO THE OCEAN.

5845d02ceb988_3-copia.jpg.447ccc2a7cc4c6

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I have one in the ground, planted against the front steps facing northeast where it gets heaps of radiated heat.....it has been through 2 winters with the last one being a prolonged affair....it is now pushing out plenty of new growth. I am however only just south of the Tropic of Capricorn and only a few hundred metres from the Coral Sea.

In regards to growing indoors and lack of humidity I have found that they will grow well against a well lit window.......lack of humidity doesn't seem to worry them as one of my potted specimens I had growing out in Cloncurry in almost desert conditions with summer temperatures constantly around 45 to 50 degrees C (122F) with humidity as low as 5%. Obviously higher humidity will produce a more healthy plant but they will survive without it.

Andrew,
Airlie Beach, Whitsundays

Tropical Queensland

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Richard,

I think you got the general consensus above. It won't survie outdoors in So Cal and especially not in Escondido.

I've tried it many times and it won't survive in our Jungle Music greenhouses. Way back when I was less informed and more willing to waste money, I heated our greenhouses to a low of 55 degrees. After one month of doing this in the 90's and a $2500 one month gas bill, I abandoned this practice. It was all for keeping alive a few Cyrtostachys. In a smaller house, I documented that 46 degrees F. will kill this species. And, it happens overnight; from beautiful to entirely brown in one night! In your area, you cannot accomplish the protection outdoors without some type of surrounded and heated greenhouse.

Mardi Darian has spent decades and tens of thousands of dollars trying to cull out a single plant that could be grown outdoors. This has been from exhaustive work and with hundreds of thousands of seedlings. And, to this day, not one plant can make it outdoors in Visata, CA. Dennis Willoughby in the beach areas of San Diego bought a big expensive one and it followed the same path with a quck demise. And, he essentially never gets cold.

So, in a heated greenehouse or indoors is your only option. Remember to maintain humidity if you grow them in the house. It's not easy.

Phil

Jungle Music Palms and Cycads, established 1977 and located in Encinitas, CA, 20 miles north of San Diego on the Coast.  Phone:  619 2914605 Link to Phil's Email phil.bergman@junglemusic.net Website: www.junglemusic.net Link to Jungle Music Palms and Cycads

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Or you can be crazy enough to plant your C. renda on a plot of cheap land in western Puerto Rico and stand back and watch it grow.... This was one of the first palms we planted and still high on my list of favorites. However, I still can't resist pushing the limits outside in Virginia Beach and used to use "wall of waters" with great success with "tropical" trees before moving to greenhouses, etc.

post-4111-032238300 1321489527_thumb.jpg

Cindy Adair

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