Jump to content
IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT LOGGING IN ×
  • WELCOME GUEST

    It looks as if you are viewing PalmTalk as an unregistered Guest.

    Please consider registering so as to take better advantage of our vast knowledge base and friendly community.  By registering you will gain access to many features - among them are our powerful Search feature, the ability to Private Message other Users, and be able to post and/or answer questions from all over the world. It is completely free, no “catches,” and you will have complete control over how you wish to use this site.

    PalmTalk is sponsored by the International Palm Society. - an organization dedicated to learning everything about and enjoying palm trees (and their companion plants) while conserving endangered palm species and habitat worldwide. Please take the time to know us all better and register.

    guest Renda04.jpg

Tropics at Elevation


Jerry@TreeZoo

Recommended Posts

We have discussed where the demarcation line is between the tropics and subtropics often. There are still disagreements but what the heck. What I have not seen much of is discussion of the tropics at elevation. Where does it stop being tropical? At 2000 feet? 3000 feet? 5000 feet? Just to make it clear, what I am talking about is the ability to grow coconuts, Cyrtostachys and Bread Fruit without a problem. We have many tropical areas represented such as Hawaii, Costa Rica, Australia etc that are tropical but also have highlands or mountains. What do you guys think?

So many species,

so little time.

Coconut Creek, Florida

Zone 10b (Zone 11 except for once evey 10 or 20 years)

Last Freeze: 2011,50 Miles North of Fairchilds

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have discussed where the demarcation line is between the tropics and subtropics often. There are still disagreements but what the heck. What I have not seen much of is discussion of the tropics at elevation. Where does it stop being tropical? At 2000 feet? 3000 feet? 5000 feet? Just to make it clear, what I am talking about is the ability to grow coconuts, Cyrtostachys and Bread Fruit without a problem. We have many tropical areas represented such as Hawaii, Costa Rica, Australia etc that are tropical but also have highlands or mountains. What do you guys think?

Jerry,

I doubt if there is a definitive answer to your question. At least not one as easy as declaring the tropics to be those areas between the two "Tropics of C & C" lines of demarcation.

I can only offer the following. As you know, Hawaii is just barely below the Tropic of Cancer, so is just barely in the tropics. And at this latitude, coconuts stop growing around 2500 ft elevation. But they stop fruiting around 2000 ft. I would assume those criteria trend higher as one progresses further south into the deeper tropics.

But I don't think your question is phrased correctly because it is all technically still the tropics, elevation makes no difference. That is why there is the lowland tropics and the submontane tropics.

animated-volcano-image-0010.gif.71ccc48bfc1ec622a0adca187eabaaa4.gif

Kona, on The Big Island
Hawaii - Land of Volcanoes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is really a "How long is a piece of string" question. How are you going to define what "tropical" actually is? Even lowland between Capricorn and Cancer things will vary greatly from island to inland.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I think tropics the way that it pertains to palm cultivation, I think of it in terms of climate (I believe this definition of tropical is every month's mean temperature is equal to or greater than 64 F). As such, Key West is fully tropical, as is Bermuda, but only because they are oceanic islands with elevations remaining near sea-level. You can be right on the equator, but at 12,000 ft. elevation, it is tundra. Thus, I think that it is a combination of factors which contribute to a location's status as "tropical" as we think of it.

-Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And at this latitude, coconuts stop growing around 2500 ft elevation. But they stop fruiting around 2000 ft. I would assume those criteria trend higher as one progresses further south into the deeper tropics.

But I don't think your question is phrased correctly because it is all technically still the tropics, elevation makes no difference. That is why there is the lowland tropics and the submontane tropics.

Yes, I admit my question was inartfully formed but your answer was generally what I was looking for. For a flat-lander like me, it is hard to figure that a climate change that would normally take hundreds of miles to occur, with elevation it is only hundreds of feet.

So Dean, if coconuts stop fruiting at 2000 feet, at what elevation does Cyrtostachys not do well or Bread Fruit stop fruiting?

TRopicbreeze, are there highlands around you?

So many species,

so little time.

Coconut Creek, Florida

Zone 10b (Zone 11 except for once evey 10 or 20 years)

Last Freeze: 2011,50 Miles North of Fairchilds

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The route from Bogotá, Co to Girardot is a good case study to watch for this transition from high elevation "tropics" to low elevations. Bogotá is at 2625 mts ASL (8,612 ft), mean temperature of 14.0 °C (57 °F) with extremes that get close to or (rarely) below freezing, and there you can only find Ceroxylon, Phoenix, and King palms growing well (but Kings do not fruit well) and nothing else. Below 2000 mts you start seeing bananas and later downhills coconuts. The first place I remember where I saw royals growing well and King palms fruiting was at Fusagasugá, Co (5,669 feet (1,728 m)), average temperature 68°F (20°C).

Check roadside pics here

I made a stop at Silvania, Co which is at an average elevation of 1507 mts (4944 ft) and saw coconuts growing.

Further down the road the elevation descends abruptly and you begin to see vast fields of Attalea butyracea in habitat until you hit Melgar, where it's hot/tropical (elevation 323 m (1,060 ft)) and later the Rio Magdalena in Girardot (289 m (948 ft)).

Frank

 

Zone 9b pine flatlands

humid/hot summers; dry/cool winters

with yearly freezes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And at this latitude, coconuts stop growing around 2500 ft elevation. But they stop fruiting around 2000 ft. I would assume those criteria trend higher as one progresses further south into the deeper tropics.

But I don't think your question is phrased correctly because it is all technically still the tropics, elevation makes no difference. That is why there is the lowland tropics and the submontane tropics.

Yes, I admit my question was inartfully formed but your answer was generally what I was looking for. For a flat-lander like me, it is hard to figure that a climate change that would normally take hundreds of miles to occur, with elevation it is only hundreds of feet.

So Dean, if coconuts stop fruiting at 2000 feet, at what elevation does Cyrtostachys not do well or Bread Fruit stop fruiting?

TRopicbreeze, are there highlands around you?

Jerry,

I can't comment on the Breadfruit, because I have no experience or paid much attention. But coincidentally, Crytostachys was the very first palm I planted here. Much as I used Kentias in SoCal, I tried using the Cyrtostachys as an "indicator plant." Since I wasn't able to spend much time here when I first purchased the property, I planted the one you see below in order to see if it would still be alive after the first winter. This would then tell me what other palms I could or could not grow. It is now nine years old - so not fast, but not ugly - and still alive and well. Just not as lush as at lower elevations. I am at 2200 ft. And it would probably fare a little better if given more water - it's not the best water retaining soil in this location.

But I don't miss them that much and prefer to grow the Areca vestiarias that rejoice at this elevation. I have all of the different forms scattered throughout. The one you see below is only about 6 years old. So IMO, a much better palm for my elevation. And with the stilt roots, colored new leaf on the red form, complex leaves, and colored fruit and crownshafts, what's not to like?

post-11-094927500 1303244483_thumb.jpg

post-11-058184600 1303244492_thumb.jpg

animated-volcano-image-0010.gif.71ccc48bfc1ec622a0adca187eabaaa4.gif

Kona, on The Big Island
Hawaii - Land of Volcanoes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So DeanO,

the pic on the left is Cyrtostachys and the one on the right is Areca? That's what it looks like to me.

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So DeanO,

the pic on the left is Cyrtostachys and the one on the right is Areca? That's what it looks like to me.

YEP

animated-volcano-image-0010.gif.71ccc48bfc1ec622a0adca187eabaaa4.gif

Kona, on The Big Island
Hawaii - Land of Volcanoes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jerry,

As others, primarily Dean and Frank, already touched on there's no specific answer to your question. It all depends on latitude. Very simple - the closer you get to the equator, the higher up you can grow tropical plants. 3,000 ft a.s.l. in Hawaii definitely is not the same as 3,000 ft a.s.l. in Costa Rica. There's probably an equation for this.

Bo-Göran

Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bo,

Yes, this is becoming apparent to me now. But nevertheless, the answers are very informative and give me a good idea of the physical comfort level of the climate as well as what could grow there. San Jose, CR is between 3K and 4K ASL with a wide plant pallet and comfortable climate that would match Hawaii maybe a thousand or two feet less. I remember visiting RoseBud Nursery in Kuranda and he said that Cyrtostachys were not really happy there. I think he was at 3K ASL. Franks travels in Colombia, very near the Equator, proves that hot sticky weather persists very high up.

So many species,

so little time.

Coconut Creek, Florida

Zone 10b (Zone 11 except for once evey 10 or 20 years)

Last Freeze: 2011,50 Miles North of Fairchilds

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rosebud is only 350m asl so approx 1000'

I have seen some Lippies on the tablelands .

But they do better down on the coast .

Highest mountain in the north [ act. all of QLD ]

is local Mt Bartle Frere , above Daishy at Babinda

at 1622m almost 5000'

Pretty cool up there .

So between 1500 & 2000m its nice and cool .

I would prefer about 1000m just right climate in the tropics .

Towns like Atherton at 780m , Malanda 750m and Yungaburra 650 m are very popular places on the tablelands.

Michael in palm paradise,

Tully, wet tropics in Australia, over 4 meters of rain every year.

Home of the Golden Gumboot, its over 8m high , our record annual rainfall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TRopicbreeze, are there highlands around you?

Compared to Florida yes. Compared to the uplands of Hawaii, definite no. Highest peak would be around 300 metres, but there are also vast floodplains barely above sea level.

Rosebud is only 350m asl so approx 1000'

I have seen some Lippies on the tablelands .

But they do better down on the coast .

Highest mountain in the north [ act. all of QLD ]

is local Mt Bartle Frere , above Daishy at Babinda

at 1622m almost 5000'

Pretty cool up there .

So between 1500 & 2000m its nice and cool .

I would prefer about 1000m just right climate in the tropics .

Towns like Atherton at 780m , Malanda 750m and Yungaburra 650 m are very popular places on the tablelands.

Quite a few people I know from here have bought in the Atherton Tablelands because they're sick of the heat and say they want to live somewhere cold. They're basically buying for retirement. It's still a far better climate than say SE Qld.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a general rule. In a humid climate, every 1000ft or approx 330m there is a 1.5C (approx 3F) drop in temperature across the board. If it's a dry climate then it's double that so 3C (approx 6F) drop for every 330m. This of course is a GENERAL rule and there will be many cases that are above or below that due to reasons we can't exactly understand.

Interesting that Dean said that on Hawaii at 2500ft coconuts stop growing and at 2000ft they stop fruiting. That means that in the coolest part of the year at 2500ft it is approx 20C (68F) max during the day or maybe just a tad less. Using the above equations/rules whatever you want to call them, the 2000ft elevation is about 1C (2F) warmer in the coolest part of the year than the 2500ft elevation. This is very interesting to me. It means that if you can get a coconut to live and grow, it just needs one more degree celcius to fruit. Myself I'm on the equivalent of the 2500ft Hawaii zone and have made my coconut grow. One more degree, that's all I need. :D

Best regards

Tyrone

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Atherton is too cold for ultra tropicals. It gets down to 0 deg there. My perfect spot would be 600-1000m elevation in equatorial highlands. Temperature is pretty mild and it doesn't even get as cold as Darwin.... AND EVERYTHING GROWS!!!!! Aaaahhhhh..... one day.

Regards, Ari :)

Ari & Scott

Darwin, NT, Australia

-12°32'53" 131°10'20"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Atherton can get frost. When I was there in 2007 they had just had their potatoe crop wiped out by mega frost. It was cold there in the winter of 07. Colder than winter in Perth, and cloudier. Bleak and depressing especially since you've come to the tropics in winter looking for some warmth and sun unsure.gif Beautiful and green but the temps and weather reminded me of being down on the south coast of Oz in winter around the dairy areas of Denmark. But on average areas around Atherton are warmer than Brisbane and SE QLD, but with the occasional mega frost. :(

Best regards

Tyrone

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Atherton is too cold for ultra tropicals. It gets down to 0 deg there. My perfect spot would be 600-1000m elevation in equatorial highlands. Temperature is pretty mild and it doesn't even get as cold as Darwin.... AND EVERYTHING GROWS!!!!! Aaaahhhhh..... one day.

Regards, Ari :)

OK let me see what temps you're talking about Ari. On the equator at sea level, the temp is almost always 25C min to 32C max with afternoon thunderstorms. 600m elevation would be 3C cooler, so 22C min to 29C max. Beautiful. :) 1000m would be 4.5C cooler so around 20C min to 27C max. Still beautiful and with increased rainfall. That's heaven year round. :D I can see the clouds and mist rolling into the green valleys below right now.wub.gif

Best regards

Tyrone

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Costa Rica I have noticed coconuts growing at 5,000 ft (1524 m) and fruiting at 4,000 ft (1219 m). I've also seen C. renda growing nicely at around 4,000 ft.

Formerly Jeff in Costa Rica
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was interesting when I was walking in Papua New Guinea not long back. Port Moresby wasn't much different to Darwin, although it's around 8 degrees off the equator. Later, at roughly the same latitude, but around 600 to 700 metres asl, it still wasn't too bad although cooler.

Around the 1500 to 2000+ metres level it was quite cold. More so the water in the streams. Since we were washing ourselves in the streams I went about 5 days without a wash, the water was just bitterly cold, weather just quite cool. Never had a wash (that's a full body wash) until I was well below 1000 metres. On the other hand, one of my friends from Tasmania was in her element, thought the water was wonderfully warm. But then again, those Taswegians are a bit weird.

There were very few palms through the mountains, compared to what I was expecting. Lower down there were all the Coconuts in the villages, and Betel Nut (for obvious reasons). But Calamus seemed the most conspicuous in the mountains, and there wasn't even a lot of that. Low down on the northern slopes of the mountains were, of course, vast plantations of African Oil palms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Zig,

I find Jakarta which is 6deg south of the equator doesn't have the temperature swings that we have in Darwin. It is pretty much similar all year, slightly cooler with rain. So, Darwin is hotter during the build up & cooler during dry season.... The wet season is probably pretty much similar.

Tyrone,

Now you get it!!! :D

Regards, Ari :)

Ari & Scott

Darwin, NT, Australia

-12°32'53" 131°10'20"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good question Jerry, that is, a good point for discussion. My dad was born in Atherton, married into the famous Halloran family (Halloran's Hill), this area is known as the "Cool Tropics", places of elevation at differing latitudes could definitely be reclassed into sub-tropical and even temperate. I'd say the maths could be applied somehow. :huh:

Happy Gardening

Cheers,

Wal

Queensland, Australia.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To complicate things a bit, proximity to the equator does not necessarily mean hot, stickier weather making it's way higher up than further away from the equator. You also have to consider marine influence, prevailing winds, and topography, to name a few. So I suspect the strong marine influence and trade winds keep Hawaii temperatures much cooler than it's distance from the equator, and the landlocked, mountainous terrain that predominates in the Colombian interior will work the other way around. So the equation is starting to become a bit convoluted.

Frank

 

Zone 9b pine flatlands

humid/hot summers; dry/cool winters

with yearly freezes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To complicate things a bit, proximity to the equator does not necessarily mean hot, stickier weather making it's way higher up than further away from the equator. You also have to consider marine influence, prevailing winds, and topography, to name a few. So I suspect the strong marine influence and trade winds keep Hawaii temperatures much cooler than it's distance from the equator, and the landlocked, mountainous terrain that predominates in the Colombian interior will work the other way around. So the equation is starting to become a bit convoluted.

Definitely the case - the trade winds are absent on the Kona coast of the Big Island, Hawaii. So any elevation there is usually a few degrees warmer than an identical elevation on the windward side. In addition, there are even daily/yearly fluctuations. When arriving at my place at 2200 ft elevation, it can be anywhere between about 6-12˚F cooler than sea level - depending on time of year, day/night, ocean temps, wind direction, cloud cover/rain, etc.

animated-volcano-image-0010.gif.71ccc48bfc1ec622a0adca187eabaaa4.gif

Kona, on The Big Island
Hawaii - Land of Volcanoes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having said all that, and great input by the way, it does make for interesting conjecture on palm species as you climb, given the marine location, winds etc. :greenthumb:

Happy Gardening

Cheers,

Wal

Queensland, Australia.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Zig,

I find Jakarta which is 6deg south of the equator doesn't have the temperature swings that we have in Darwin. It is pretty much similar all year, slightly cooler with rain. So, Darwin is hotter during the build up & cooler during dry season.... The wet season is probably pretty much similar.

Ari, Port Moresby is a bit the same. I was there in early May so that's why it was similar to Darwin. But when the south easters set in Darwin gets the dry wind from across the continent, Port Moresby gets that wind from across the sea. So their temperature doesn't swing as much as ours and they can get some rain in the dry season.

To complicate things a bit, proximity to the equator does not necessarily mean hot, stickier weather making it's way higher up than further away from the equator. You also have to consider marine influence, prevailing winds, and topography, to name a few. So I suspect the strong marine influence and trade winds keep Hawaii temperatures much cooler than it's distance from the equator, and the landlocked, mountainous terrain that predominates in the Colombian interior will work the other way around. So the equation is starting to become a bit convoluted.

Definitely the case - the trade winds are absent on the Kona coast of the Big Island, Hawaii. So any elevation there is usually a few degrees warmer than an identical elevation on the windward side. In addition, there are even daily/yearly fluctuations. When arriving at my place at 2200 ft elevation, it can be anywhere between about 6-12˚F cooler than sea level - depending on time of year, day/night, ocean temps, wind direction, cloud cover/rain, etc.

Ocean currents/tempersatures are also significant. Hawaii is on the end of the very cold California Current, so their ocean temperatures are much colder than other tropical places. Then you take Florida (outside the 'tropics') and their ocean temperatures are higher than Hawaii's. That has a big influence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In a strict sense, all tropical climates are distinct from temperate ones. TheHoldridge Life Zone classification was an inventive and popular effort to sort out climates from a vegetation perspective.

The páramos of tropical South American mountains are utterly distinctive. Something great that I haven't visited.

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In a strict sense, all tropical climates are distinct from temperate ones. TheHoldridge Life Zone classification was an inventive and popular effort to sort out climates from a vegetation perspective.

The páramos of tropical South American mountains are utterly distinctive. Something great that I haven't visited.

Had a look at that. It's very good. Seems to make sense too. Had to really study it at first to figure out how it should be read. It predicted my area as sub-humid subtropical dry forest and that's spot on. It's also good to figure out how much irrigation is required to artificially shift your zones in your own microclimate within the garden. I just need to supply the equivalent of 3m extra rainfall in the garden and I have a subtropical humid wet forest. Another 1m and I have a subtropical rainforest. :D

Best regards

Tyrone

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...