spockvr6 Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 I know this has been discussed before, but the speed of a Queen palm that gets well fed and watered still amazes me. For reference, note the Sabals in the photos which have about 15 ft of trunk each. June 2005 August 2006 January 2007 Larry Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Little Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Larry, IMO queens are one of the fasted growers when well fed and watered. I planted mine in Juy of 2000 as 15 gal plants and are over 35' tall. That is one very nice yard, is it yours? How old are those sabals? Don_L Rancho CUCAMONGA (yes it does exist) 40 min due east of Los Angeles USDA Zone 10a July Averages: Hi 95F, Low 62F Jan Averages: Hi 68F, Low 45F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spockvr6 Posted January 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Don- I am not sure on the age of the Sabals as I bought them in April 2005 as harvested palms. Id guess they are quite old (but one wouldnt know it from what these things cost.....I think I paid $125 each and that was pretty much retail). The yard is coming along and not bad for what Ive got to work with (i.e. very small spaces). I have 9 or 10 more Queens aroudn the yard that are all also growing evry very quickly (but they are hard to photograph). These palms, although considered ho-hum mosts everywhere, are really nice palms if taken care of IMO. I also have what is know as a Syagrus "supernova" (it is some sort of odd Queen palm) that John Bishock in Sarasota, FL gave me and this thing is even faster than a normal Queen! In March 2006, this palm was a strap leafed seedling and it is now over my head with a 2" wide base! Unbelievable..... Larry Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oppalm Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 very impressive growth in a short time. I bought a 4' tall queen about 2 years ago. It is currently 8' tall. I am trying to limit its growth. It is outside from April thru October. It's currently in a 20" pot and I think I may lose control of it this summer. It probably has a pent up growth spurt in it. Kent in Kansas. Gowing palm trees in the middle of the country - Kansas. It's hot in the summer (usually) and cold in the winter (always). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Little Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Like to see pic of the supernova, sounds like it's even faster than my C urens. And $125 for those sabals that that sounds like a steal, I would have thought that even though they are common in Fl, that because of their growth rate they would go for a good amount. Don_L Rancho CUCAMONGA (yes it does exist) 40 min due east of Los Angeles USDA Zone 10a July Averages: Hi 95F, Low 62F Jan Averages: Hi 68F, Low 45F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubTropicRay Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Larry, Nothing is faster than a Queen in our area. Other fast growers like Carpentaria would rival that but are slowed by the cool winters here. The only thing that may be faster is Acrocomia aculeata. Ray Tampa, Interbay Peninsula, Florida, USA subtropical USDA Zone 10A Bokeelia, Pine Island, Florida, USA subtropical USDA Zone 10B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Pittman Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Larry I still see plenty of room for more palms! Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBTX11 Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Why don't mine grow as fast. I planted one a year ago, and it grew from about 4' to 6 or 7' last year. Nice growth, but not nearly as fast. I watered it like crazy, and I expect it to be 10-12' by the end of next year. I didn't fertilize it, could this be why. What kind of fertilizer do you use. I am ignorant when it comes to what kind of fertilizer. Do you need a special kind, or can you use any tree fertilizer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Little Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Jim, The first year is usually the slowest from my experience, but after that they take off. As far as fertilizers, Iv'e herad that some use Osmocote and have had good results. I use palm specific slow release fertilizers because the specialized needs of palms, in addition they also have micronutrients. I do this 3 times a year and during spring and summer every two weeks I use liquid fert like miracle grow. Just wait untill next year because with your climate where you should get growth as fast there as here. Don_L Rancho CUCAMONGA (yes it does exist) 40 min due east of Los Angeles USDA Zone 10a July Averages: Hi 95F, Low 62F Jan Averages: Hi 68F, Low 45F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spockvr6 Posted January 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 (Ray @ Tampa,Jan. 06 2007,18:34)QUOTELarry, Nothing is faster than a Queen in our area. Other fast growers like Carpentaria would rival that but are slowed by the cool winters here. The only thing that may be faster is Acrocomia aculeata. Ray Based on what is in my yard, I would have to agree. By and large, Queens are very very fast. Some are faster than others of course, but every single one in my yard falls into the fast category. This is another palm that is really best bought as an inexpensive small size and grown from there. Thus far, I have been unimpressed by Carpentaria. Mine are all still small (I have half a dozen), but I am giving them time to get settled. They certainly do not (or should I say have not in my yard) taken off from day one from a very small size like a Queen does. But, I have seen some that have displayed astounding growth rates. So, I suppose they need to reach a certain size before speeding up. I am certainly anxious for them to do so as these are beautiful palms. Larry Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spockvr6 Posted January 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 I have used nothing but the el cheapo fast release fertilizer supplemented with dolomitic lime (which is a very cheap source of Mg) on this Queen (and all other palms/plants) in the yard. In my mind, I tend to assume that frequent applications of fast release will work better that stretched out applications of timed release (but it is more work obviously). I think the other key (as we have all seen from the gardens in the rainy areas of Hawaii) is lots of water. I dare say that I get as much "rain" in my yard as Bo does in Leilani Estates. But, I have to pay for any "rain" that is over what Ma Nature provides. From looking at my monthly usage of irrigation water and my irrigated area (in square feet), I would not be surprised if it "rained" 150-175" in my yard last year Larry Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spockvr6 Posted January 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 (Rob Pittman @ Jan. 06 2007,18:52)QUOTELarry I still see plenty of room for more palms! Rob Im glad we are on the same page Im getting close to planted out (I dont want to lose all the grass), but it seems I can always find a little more space for just one more ??? Larry Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-Vero Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 A little Queen stuck in the sidewalk in downtown Vero Beach opposite the post office languished for several years, usually with only a couple of leaves, thanks to pruning (small hole). This year, it's shot up and it's well on its way to having a nice trunk. Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B Current USDA hardiness zone 10a 4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane) Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spockvr6 Posted January 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 (Don_L @ Jan. 06 2007,18:02)QUOTELike to see pic of the supernova, sounds like it's even faster than my C urens. C. urens is another fast one. I have been reluctant to plant out too many Caryota (as I dont want the burden down the road for their removals), but I did plant out a very small urens last March. It also say for waht seemed like months without even the slighest spear movement. Then.....ZOOM! This sucker took off. I will try and grab a pic of the supernova tomorrow. I dont recall all the specifics about it, other than it was apparently some variation of S. romanzoffiana that was faster, more robust, had different looking seeds, and was very cold tolerant. I believe John Bishock stated his went through 22F without even a scratch. Most normal Queens would be a bit uncomfortable at 22F. Other than that, I dont know much about this palm. But, I figure its a long term keeper in the yard as it will be a monster in no time and Ill never have to worry about cold with it. Larry Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spockvr6 Posted January 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 (Don_L @ Jan. 06 2007,18:02)QUOTEAnd $125 for those sabals that that sounds like a steal, I would have thought that even though they are common in Fl, that because of their growth rate they would go for a good amount. $125 is probably a bit high....you can find them cheaper if you look around. Ive seen them as low as $75-80 a piece....any size one wants...all the same price. I suspect most of these palms are obtained for (nearly) free...just the labor to dig them out of the ground. The kicker is installing one of these suckers! They are heavy :: Larry Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_brissy_13 Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 A local nursery here is selling Sabal palmetto just beginning to trunk for A$1600. Tim Brisbane Patterson Lakes, bayside Melbourne, Australia Rarely Frost 2005 Minimum: 2.6C, Maximum: 44C 2005 Average: 17.2C, warmest on record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBa3Fan Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 i seen in Virginia Beach they were selling this same size palm for $1000 to $1250 . Now I am thinking that a trip to Fla in my gas guzzeling truck may be worth the saved money on 2, that would cover a fun trip and winter protection too. Jim will try to do the things that they say can't be done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spockvr6 Posted January 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 (JBa3Fan @ Jan. 07 2007,08:45)QUOTEi seen in Virginia Beach they were selling this same size palm for $1000 to $1250 . Now I am thinking that a trip to Fla in my gas guzzeling truck may be worth the saved money on 2, that would cover a fun trip and winter protection too. Jim Jim- Heck....maybe you could even bring a bunch of extra ones back for others in your area who want them and maybe even pay for all the gas, lodging, and a few Disney tckets to boot I think Rob Pittman in Ruskin sells Sabals for $85 each (thats what it shows on his website www.aqualityplant.com). Larry Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoomsDave Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Queens are fast, no doubt about it. I planted a row of them about a year and a half ago, from fifteen gallon pots. The biggest is now over 20 feet tall, and beginning to overtake my infamous royal. It's the tall palm to the right of the royal in the center of this picture. Let's keep our forum fun and friendly. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spockvr6 Posted January 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 (Dave from So-Cal @ Jan. 07 2007,09:44)QUOTEQueens are fast, no doubt about it. I planted a row of them about a year and a half ago, from fifteen gallon pots. The biggest is now over 20 feet tall, and beginning to overtake my infamous royal. Dave- In my yard, there has been no comparison between the Royals and the Queens....the Queens are far far far faster. But, the Royals are better looking (IMO) and fatter. I have Queens I planted as 3 gallon size 3 years ago that are as tall as my biggest Royal (about 20 ft). But, with any luck at all, eventually the Royals will end up taller. Larry Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubTropicRay Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Nice place Dave. The Royal looks great. Tampa, Interbay Peninsula, Florida, USA subtropical USDA Zone 10A Bokeelia, Pine Island, Florida, USA subtropical USDA Zone 10B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoomsDave Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Larry: Here, the queens roar along, then slow down after a while. A sixty year old queen will be about forty feet tall; a royal that old will be much larger, if Louis Hooper's experience is any guide. His royal got to be about 50 feet tall before it was removed after thirty years. Magnificent! Majestic! And, a horrendous, leaf-dropping monster . . . . dave Let's keep our forum fun and friendly. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoomsDave Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Here's a picture of the royal, with the queens in the background, barely visible. Spring of '06. Let's keep our forum fun and friendly. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoomsDave Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Here is roughly that same view, taken a few minutes ago. It is startling how fast those queens are. Let's keep our forum fun and friendly. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoomsDave Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Here's another view: Let's keep our forum fun and friendly. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBTX11 Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 (JBa3Fan @ Jan. 07 2007,08:45)QUOTEi seen in Virginia Beach they were selling this same size palm for $1000 to $1250 . Now I am thinking that a trip to Fla in my gas guzzeling truck may be worth the saved money on 2, that would cover a fun trip and winter protection too. Jim Don't forget they grow by the millions in the wild in FL, you could go out in the country, and dig a big one up for free if you felt like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Larry, that really is a nice yard you're working on! I'm a little envious of you because you've got that stip of land between the road and sidewalk- perfect for a nice strip of palms! We don't have that luxury/ developer thoughtfulness here, unfortunately....... Oakley, California 55 Miles E-NE of San Francisco, CA Solid zone 9, I can expect at least one night in the mid to low twenties every year. Hot, dry summers. Cold, wet winters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoomsDave Posted January 7, 2007 Report Share Posted January 7, 2007 Here's another picture, better focus & light Let's keep our forum fun and friendly. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spockvr6 Posted January 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 (Patrick @ Jan. 07 2007,14:31)QUOTELarry, that really is a nice yard you're working on! I'm a little envious of you because you've got that stip of land between the road and sidewalk- perfect for a nice strip of palms! We don't have that luxury/ developer thoughtfulness here, unfortunately....... Patrick- I wish I had done things a little differently in this "strip". If I was more bold, I would have lined this area with about half a dozen of the fattest Royals I could find. But, I was worried about hardiness and thought that, if we were to get another bad one like in the 80's, I would be seriously distressed about looking at a big row of dead or seriously damaged palms right at the street. So, I erred on the conservative side and put all hardy palms out there. Its hard to see in the photo, but 5 years down the road I should have a living "wall" in that "strip" comprised of the larger palms already there (the Sabal palmettos and the Queen), as well as a couple of Sabal domingensis, 4 Sabal yapa and 4 more Copernecia alba! When driving down the street (hopefuly) one wont even know a house is back there! LOL. Well...maybe it wont be that much of a "wall" but it should be impressive. If I (or should I say my wife) decides we dont like it, I can always dig 'em up (and maybe go with that line of Royals)! Larry Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spockvr6 Posted July 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2007 As an update, here is the same Queen palm as of July 28, 2007. Larry Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feef706 Posted July 28, 2007 Report Share Posted July 28, 2007 (spockvr6 @ Jan. 06 2007,21:47)QUOTEI have used nothing but the el cheapo fast release fertilizer supplemented with dolomitic lime (which is a very cheap source of Mg) on this Queen (and all other palms/plants) in the yard. In my mind, I tend to assume that frequent applications of fast release will work better that stretched out applications of timed release (but it is more work obviously). I think the other key (as we have all seen from the gardens in the rainy areas of Hawaii) is lots of water. I dare say that I get as much "rain" in my yard as Bo does in Leilani Estates. But, I have to pay for any "rain" that is over what Ma Nature provides. From looking at my monthly usage of irrigation water and my irrigated area (in square feet), I would not be surprised if it "rained" 150-175" in my yard last year What brand is your "el cheapo" fertilizer? also what are the numbers because everyone ive talked to says you need high numbers but every palm fertilizer I buy seems to be 8-6-6 or something along those lines. I also throw down handfuls of epsom salt for the magnesium but you said you supplement with lime? My queen is starting to take off this year but Its not trying to produce any trunk yet. I know the cold of winter here slows it down but Id like to know what fertilizers everyones using. I like the sound of fast release and more fertilizing rather than once every 2-3 months. Fort Walton Beach, FL, USA Zone 9a, 2 blocks from the Bay, 1.5 miles from the Gulf of Mexico No where near frost free.. But hopefully someday when I move further south.. 07/08 Extreme Low 24.9F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spockvr6 Posted July 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2007 (feef706 @ Jul. 28 2007,16:04)QUOTEWhat brand is your "el cheapo" fertilizer? also what are the numbers because everyone ive talked to says you need high numbers but every palm fertilizer I buy seems to be 8-6-6 or something along those lines. I also throw down handfuls of epsom salt for the magnesium but you said you supplement with lime? My queen is starting to take off this year but Its not trying to produce any trunk yet. I know the cold of winter here slows it down but Id like to know what fertilizers everyones using. I like the sound of fast release and more fertilizing rather than once every 2-3 months. Feef- I have used either the Vigoro 8-6-6 from Home Depot, or the Sunniland stuff from Lowes. I cant recall the Sunniland ratios, but it was close to the Vigoro stuff, if not the same. The dolomitic lime is very high in Mg (10-11%) and is very cheap to buy. Usually, 50 lb is less than 4 bucks. Larry Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feef706 Posted July 29, 2007 Report Share Posted July 29, 2007 Ok thats the stuff same that I use. Ill have to try the lime rather than the epsom salt as I go through bags at a time and they are 2-3 per bag. The lime sounds alot cheaper. I read on the UF website that scotts came out with a fertilzer which they considered almost perfect for palms and the numbers were 15-5-15 but I have yet to see it anywhere, the other ratio they recommended was 8N - 2P subscript 2, 0 subscript 5 - 12K subscript 2+ 4MG, but I have yet to see anything like this either, I guess you have to make it yourself. Thanks for the info. Fort Walton Beach, FL, USA Zone 9a, 2 blocks from the Bay, 1.5 miles from the Gulf of Mexico No where near frost free.. But hopefully someday when I move further south.. 07/08 Extreme Low 24.9F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spockvr6 Posted August 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 I swear this same Queen has added a few more feet in the past month. Larry Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonoranfans Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 yeah queens are the fastest here as well, though washingtonia robusta can be faster at some stages or ages. This first pic is jan05. Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a?? Tom Blank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonoranfans Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 by august 07 alot of things did change, but the queens in the center are the same. These arent even my fastest/largest. I have one monster that has several roses near it, but I cant find the before picture. Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a?? Tom Blank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve 9atx Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 I agree. Queens are the fastest. Here's a pic of one of two, spindly 15 gallon Queens put in the ground exactly 5 years ago. Probably six or seven feet tall to the "tips": USDA Zone 9a/b, AHS Heat Zone 9, Sunset Zone 28 49'/14m above sea level, 25mi/40km to Galveston Bay Long-term average rainfall 47.84"/1215mm Near-term (7yr) average rainfall 55.44"/1410mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve 9atx Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 Here's the same palm tonight (in the dark and the rain). At least 35' tall. Look at "Glossie" the cow for scale: USDA Zone 9a/b, AHS Heat Zone 9, Sunset Zone 28 49'/14m above sea level, 25mi/40km to Galveston Bay Long-term average rainfall 47.84"/1215mm Near-term (7yr) average rainfall 55.44"/1410mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve 9atx Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 And the trunk, 21" caliper at the flare in the base: USDA Zone 9a/b, AHS Heat Zone 9, Sunset Zone 28 49'/14m above sea level, 25mi/40km to Galveston Bay Long-term average rainfall 47.84"/1215mm Near-term (7yr) average rainfall 55.44"/1410mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tad Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 that cow is fabulos, what is it made out of? I am working on a giant metal rooster but the owner wont budge of the price!! Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle. Abraham Lincoln The way of the transgressor is hard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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