Jump to content

indicators of hardiness zones


Jimbean
 Share

Recommended Posts

(aricle @ Jan. 06 2007,03:30)

QUOTE

(spockvr6 @ Jan. 05 2007,22:37)

QUOTE
Who wouldnt want a Banyan if they could grow one (and of course had the space).  Although, I have seen a bunch of them crammed into some very small yards (and the house is barely visible!

Here's my local Banyan down the street in Cypress Gardens. Microclimates are good things.  :)

cgbanyan1.jpg

cgbanyan2.jpg

cgbanyan3.jpg

Smudge pots are too  :D

Sorry......in the vein of this thread, I couldnt resist!  Please forgive me  :D

That Banyan is phenomenal!  I have never been to Cypress Gardens and I think I am missing out on something.  That thing is absolutely massive.  That has to be one of the largest in FL!

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(aricle @ Jan. 06 2007,03:30)

QUOTE
Here's my local Banyan down the street in Cypress Gardens. Microclimates are good things.  :)

All kidding aside, Winter Haven has an excellent climate compared to most other areas that are that far inland and at that latitude.  The normal winter lows are very close to the coastal areas of Tampa Bay.  In times past I had supposed this was due to station elevation, but the official weather station there is actually only at 14 ft above sea level.  

The freeze chance in Winter Haven is not far from that of Tampa AP (and the odds of not dropping below 36F are identical), yet Winter Haven is far inland.  Seems like a good place to be if one is not near water!

winterhaven.jpg

tampa.jpg

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Keep in mind that the USDA zones are not the best indicators of hardiness since they only determine likelihood of coldest temps.  

I am one of just a few posters to this site that is in zone 11 but record more nights in the 40's than anywhere in south Texas/most of Florida. Days are relatively warm but heat doesn't really start until July.  These factors play a major role

Royals/veitchia arecina seem to do fine & even a little bethel nut.  But the lack of moisture & sustained heat mean slow growth.

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(spockvr6 @ Jan. 06 2007,08:37)

QUOTE
All kidding aside, Winter Haven has an excellent climate compared to most other areas that are that far inland and at that latitude.  The normal winter lows are very close to the coastal areas of Tampa Bay.  In times past I had supposed this was due to station elevation, but the official weather station there is actually only at 14 ft above sea level.  

The freeze chance in Winter Haven is not far from that of Tampa AP (and the odds of not dropping below 36F are identical), yet Winter Haven is far inland.  Seems like a good place to be if one is not near water!

Not that it matters much, but I think you're missing a digit on your elevation. Winter Haven is on average 144ft. above sea level. Gilbert Field (the station's location) is at 145ft.

Yeah, it's seems like a good place thus far (the time I've been paying attention). There are many lakes all around. It's hard to drive half a mile without a lake in view somewhere. But we're certainly not exempt. We've hit 19F in 1985 and 1989. Hopefully freaks like that won't happen again for a long time.

Manuel Montesino

Cypress Gardens - Winter Haven, FL

The Chain of Lakes City

Avg. High: 84F; Avg. Low: 63F; Avg. Precip: 50 in.

Elevation: 150 ft.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(happ @ Jan. 06 2007,08:42)

QUOTE
Keep in mind that the USDA zones are not the best indicators of hardiness since they only determine likelihood of coldest temps.  

Happ, unfortunately I wish you were right.

The maps don't determine the likelihood of COLDEST temps,they determine the average COLD temps. A 20F degree night and a 40F degree night  averages out to 30F degrees.

Hence the argument Larry is making!

One night is all it takes to wipe a supposed zone 10 area off the MAP so to speak!

Scott

Titusville, FL

1/2 mile from the Indian River

USDA Zone COLD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(aricle @ Jan. 06 2007,09:39)

QUOTE
Not that it matters much, but I think you're missing a digit on your elevation. Winter Haven is on average 144ft. above sea level. Gilbert Field (the station's location) is at 145ft.

Hot dang it youre right....I thought 14 ft seemed odd, but figured thats just wher the station happened to be.

My error was in not seeing that the station elevation number was times 10 what was listed.  See here---

http://cirrus.dnr.state.sc.us/cgi-bin/serc...iMeta.pl?fl9707

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(gsn @ Jan. 06 2007,11:56)

QUOTE
The maps don't determine the likelihood of COLDEST temps,they determine the average COLD temps. A 20F degree night and a 40F degree night  averages out to 30F degrees.

Hence the argument Larry is making!

Oh man.......you said that in one sentence and it took me about 10 posts  :D

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(gsn @ Jan. 06 2007,11:56)

QUOTE
One night is all it takes to wipe a supposed zone 10 area off the MAP so to speak!

This is how those probability maps (like I posted above for Tampa and Winter Haven) can be useful.

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(aricle @ Jan. 06 2007,09:39)

QUOTE
Yeah, it's seems like a good place thus far (the time I've been paying attention). There are many lakes all around. It's hard to drive half a mile without a lake in view somewhere. But we're certainly not exempt. We've hit 19F in 1985 and 1989. Hopefully freaks like that won't happen again for a long time.

The high elevation (relative to nearby areas) will not help much with windy cold events.

But thankfully, the vast number of freezes in FL are radiational and not advective.

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey the lychee industry started in Laurel, Fl (Venice/Sarasota) and Polk, Pasco, Hillsborough had plantings that were maintained up to the 62 freeze and some groves recovered after that winter, and lychee is less hardy than sweet orange and equals roughly the royal (give or take) and some mango types, these were commercial plantings not backyard fun time.  Winter Haven was one area this was going on -till the big one.

Our averages and minor excursions from those averages are good for just about everything we want to grow, it is the notable events that are the bottlenecks.  This   is why I use the zone map as a loose reference at best, especially the borders of zones where flip flop is most likely.

Alan

Tampa, Florida

Zone - 10a

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fairchild Tropical Botanic Garden had a big banyan at the NW corner of its property, but it sort of got chopped up in hurricane Andrew.  Looks like it also lost out to the new parking lot.  The remnants are being well cared for.  A reminder, I guess, that wind is part of our climate, too.  Wind hardiness zone, maybe?

Lychees on Merritt Island (Brevard County, Florida) died in the 1989 freeze, as did most of the royals.  Royal palms had better survival chances just a bit farther south, from Melbourne Beach southward.

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(spockvr6 @ Jan. 06 2007,08:21)

QUOTE

(syersj @ Jan. 06 2007,00:08)

QUOTE
Under your description, I can't plant any zone 9 palms either, because we have gotten in the single digits 3 or 4 times the last 100 years.  But, I plan on planting some risky zone 9 palms this year.  Why not, I've already got a bunch of "hardy" stuff in my yard.

It doesnt mean you cant plant things that cant make it 50+ years, it just means that, in the very strictest sense, that history is against you over the very long term.  

But, all of this talk doesnt take away from the fun of trying.  The fact that there is a tinge of risk makes it somewhat exciting doesnt it?  If this were not the case, then there would be no such threads on this forum discussing such topics!  

So, in this regard, this is why I am playing devil's advocate.  It makes the conversation somewhat lively :D

Larry, I knew what you were getting at, I was just giving you a hard time.

Perfect example for my area - queen palms, a zone 9a palm hardy to around 20F, that is commonly sold and planted around here.  If I were here and planted some around 1990, they would probably be huge.  But history tells us that eventually sooner or later it will get into the mid teens or lower and all the queens that are being planted will be toast.  They don't stand a chance with anything close to an 80s type freeze, I don't believe.  But zone 8 palms like washys, sabals, and cidps are huge around here and made it through all the worst freezes.  That doesn't mean a zone 9a palm can't make it for a long while though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(gsn @ Jan. 06 2007,11:56)

QUOTE

(happ @ Jan. 06 2007,08:42)

QUOTE
Keep in mind that the USDA zones are not the best indicators of hardiness since they only determine likelihood of coldest temps.  

Happ, unfortunately I wish you were right.

The maps don't determine the likelihood of COLDEST temps,they determine the average COLD temps. A 20F degree night and a 40F degree night  averages out to 30F degrees.

Hence the argument Larry is making!

One night is all it takes to wipe a supposed zone 10 area off the MAP so to speak!

Scott

I am no expert but my understanding is that the USDA zones merely identify average coldest temperature of the year.  Recent attempts to incorporate moisture/warmest minimums/heat duration into a zone map are encouraging.

Frost/freeze figure in big time & is the cruel decider of what lives.

For example, Los Angeles and Miami are located in zone 10 yet are latitudes apart in what can flourish :o

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(happ @ Jan. 06 2007,18:13)

QUOTE
Scott

I am no expert but my understanding is that the USDA zones merely identify average coldest temperature of the year.  Recent attempts to incorporate moisture/warmest minimums/heat duration into a zone map are encouraging.

Frost/freeze figure in big time & is the cruel decider of what lives.

For example, Los Angeles and Miami are located in zone 10 yet are latitudes apart in what can flourish :o

Happ,

I'm no expert either,in fact I'm not sure even the EXPERTS are experts on the weather! :D

I wasn't trying to be a smart*** using your post. I just used it to make Larry's point,that zones aren't the arbitrator as to what you can actually grow!!

But there is a big difference between average cold temps and coldest temps.

The USDA maps,and now Arbor Day zone maps are an AVERAGE of cold temps over a certain time period,be it 30 years  or 15 years,or whatever period of time they decide to use.

What it is NOT, is the COLDEST temps over that same time frame. Otherwise those maps would look very different,at least here in central Florida,maybe not so much in your area, Los Angeles. But in general the maps would look alot different if they used the COLDEST temps over that same time frame,rather  than an AVERAGE of the cold temps.

You seem to have more consistant temps out there in the winter than we do here. As you hardly if ever get FROST/FREEZE but have consistantly lower overall temps.

Here our temps fluctuate much more,warmer in general but with the possibilty of getting much colder on any given cold front event.That is why I have always said if we could take 2 or 3 days out of the winter calander here, we could grow most everything here in central Florida ,that they do in Miami!

That is also the problem relying on the maps as to what you can plant. LA is a zone 10/11 miami a zone 10 ,but the same palms/plants can't be grown,as you so noted!

In closing no disrespect was intended in my post! :)

Scott

Titusville, FL

1/2 mile from the Indian River

USDA Zone COLD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(gsn @ Jan. 06 2007,20:17)

QUOTE
That is also the problem relying on the maps as to what you can plant. LA is a zone 10/11 miami a zone 10 ,but the same palms/plants can't be grown,as you so noted!

I would venture to say, if we looked at the LONG term stats for Miami, they would be zone 11.  We know all the keys are zone 11, and I am betting at least Key Biscayne and Miami Beach are too, and probably areas around downtown Miami.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(syersj @ Jan. 06 2007,21:05)

QUOTE

(gsn @ Jan. 06 2007,20:17)

QUOTE
That is also the problem relying on the maps as to what you can plant. LA is a zone 10/11 miami a zone 10 ,but the same palms/plants can't be grown,as you so noted!

I would venture to say, if we looked at the LONG term stats for Miami, they would be zone 11.  We know all the keys are zone 11, and I am betting at least Key Biscayne and Miami Beach are too, and probably areas around downtown Miami.

Jim,

I think the point happ was making, and I agree is that even though LA  is a zone11,and Miami  is a zone10, they are two totally different climates. Even if you consider Miami a zone 11 ,they are vastly different in climate. LA as best I can tell from what I have gleened is more mediteranian,long cool winters, very dry,even though it doesn't freeze. Generally heavy clay soil. Whereas Miami is much more tropical,warmer more humid winters,and in general hoter, and much more humid summers. Generally sandy loose soil.

Therefore even if you consider Miami a zone 11 ,there would still be a big difference in what would flourish there as opposed to LA, because of the climate differences.

Another good reason to not plant strickly by zones on the MAP!!! :;):

Scott

Titusville, FL

1/2 mile from the Indian River

USDA Zone COLD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It helps to think of global similarities outside the US.  Round-the-world latitude perspective provides a fuller picture.

LATITUDE 32-34

Los Angeles/SoCal

Phoenix

Dallas

Atlanta

Bermuda

Santiago

Algeria

Tripoli

Casablanca

Capetown

Tunisia

Madeira Is

Baghdad

Tel Aviv

Syria

Perth

Sydney

LATITUDE 24-26

Miami/SoFlorida

Brownsville

Monterrey

La Paz/Baja

Sao Paulo

Pretoria

Congo

Mozambique

Sahara

Saudi Arabia

Dacca

India [central]

Taipei

Queensland

Windorah

Latitudinally-speaking So California falls into a generally mild/warm & dry climate.  So Florida resembles warm & humid regions.

The discovery of frostless zone 11 in LA began when people moved into the hills.  "Septic tank " country  :laugh:  Mild winters/short rain season/long/warm summers. Dry & prone to wild fires.  Winter maxima similar to south Texas but cooler nights.

Miami is 10 degrees warmer during winter & quickly heats up in Spring.  Nights are warmer then SoCal all year [ex. low desert].  Summer maximums are similar but humidity is much higher in Florida.  Thunderstorm territory & hurricanes.

Frost is a deadly vistor & ironic to more likely to appear in Miami than Los Angeles.  ???

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(gsn @ Jan. 06 2007,20:17)

QUOTE
Scott

You seem to have more consistant temps out there in the winter than we do here. As you hardly if ever get FROST/FREEZE but have consistantly lower overall temps.

Here our temps fluctuate much more,warmer in general but with the possibilty of getting much colder on any given cold front event.That is why I have always said if we could take 2 or 3 days out of the winter calander here, we could grow most everything here in central Florida ,that they do in Miami!

In addition to it being much warmer here overall, the cold snaps we get are usually of very short duration. I lived in Socal for 17 years, before moving back to Florida and I would describe Socal winters as mild/cool with brief warm periods, whereas Florida tends more to mild/warm with brief cold periods. It has always amazed me how quickly temps can bounce back up Florida, with the change in wind direction. I'm speaking from a SE coast bias, but over here, temps can jump up 10 degrees in the space of an hour. And the avg. cold snap usually only lasts 1-3 days.

Royal Palm Beach, FL.

USDA Zone 10A/10B Subtropical

26.7 degrees N. latitude

10 miles West of West Palm Beach and the ocean

Avg. yearly rainfall 58 inches

:cool:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Inland where I am located, the winter temps can still be warm in fact December and January are the only months that the average temp drops below 70 a 68, and 69 respectively but frost and freeze although rare is more likely to occur here in my area than where happ is at.  I have not experienced frost so far for the past two winters in my yard but the problem here apart from the lack of humididty is that is it is also rare for night time winter temps to go above 50.  Most nights it fluctuates in the 40's with mid to high 30's occasionly.  The consistently low but non-freezing winter night time temps it seems is what takes it's toll here and is what keeps some species that flourish in Florida from flourishing here.

Don_L    Rancho CUCAMONGA (yes it does exist) 40 min due east of Los Angeles

             USDA Zone 10a

July Averages: Hi 95F, Low 62F

Jan Averages: Hi 68F, Low 45F

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(happ @ Jan. 07 2007,01:02)

QUOTE
Frost is a deadly vistor & ironic to more likely to appear in Miami than Los Angeles.  ???

This is the only statement I don't agree with.  The record low for Miami is right at 32F, for LA it's 28F.  Miami doesn't get freezes. (at least in the city, Homestead and outlying areas are another story).  One would be more likely to happen in LA since their record is 4 degrees colder.  There hasn't yet been a subfreezing temperature in Miami record keeping "officially" - I know there are some unnofficial ones.

Plus, Miami is having lows in the 70s right now.  LA barely has 70 degree lows in mid summer.  Light years apard, imo, even though both are zone 10/11's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(syersj @ Jan. 07 2007,14:13)

QUOTE

(happ @ Jan. 07 2007,01:02)

QUOTE
Frost is a deadly vistor & ironic to more likely to appear in Miami than Los Angeles.  ???

This is the only statement I don't agree with.  The record low for Miami is right at 32F, for LA it's 28F.  Miami doesn't get freezes. (at least in the city, Homestead and outlying areas are another story).  One would be more likely to happen in LA since their record is 4 degrees colder.  There hasn't yet been a subfreezing temperature in Miami record keeping "officially" - I know there are some unnofficial ones.

Plus, Miami is having lows in the 70s right now.  LA barely has 70 degree lows in mid summer.  Light years apard, imo, even though both are zone 10/11's.

Jim

Was wondering if anyone would call me on the statement and confess to going out on a limb a bit  :laugh:

Tend to agree that Miami is probably slightly less likely to experience frost than Los Angeles.  Besides the 2 "official" weather stations are LAX near the ocean & USC near downtown & in the Basin.  The old Civic Center station was warmer than the current two weather sites due to being on top of a tall building surrounded by other buildings.  The foothills that surround the Basin are sort of like tall buildings above the coldest air.  I'm interested in what the temps are like in the foothills around Honolulu.   ???

In-any-event, I am a bit nervous about the medium-range [7-10 days] forecast of an intense cold Gulf of Alaska low moving into the US late this week.  If the prediction holds, it will be an extremely windy event which will exceed any of the wind storms this winter.  Snowfall could occur at sea level around Seattle but the bulk of the moisture will move inland into Nevada/Utah leaving SoCal dry once again but very cold.  The wind of course will modify the cold.

This system could wreak havoc across the RockyMts/Great Plains into the South.  Let's hope the storm doesn't pick up too much Gulf of Mexico moisture since tornadoes could break out in Texas.   :o

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Miami is not just the airport, lows below 32F are not that rare in all of Miami area (except the airport and Bal Harbor ha ha).

As a note even though frost can form when AIR temps are not yet 32F areas of  Redlands had frost this winter, early on this Fall/Winter and as noted this is a velvet glove kind of winter by most measures.

Colder in some spots way south than here in Tampa area, not the first time.

A grove owner (tropical fruit grove) in Redlands (right near Monkey Jungle) has told me that a light frost is to be expected nearly every year.

Alan

Tampa, Florida

Zone - 10a

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(spockvr6 @ Jan. 06 2007,08:37)

QUOTE
Winter Haven has an excellent climate compared to most other areas that are that far inland and at that latitude.  The normal winter lows are very close to the coastal areas of Tampa Bay.  In times past I had supposed this was due to station elevation, but the official weather station there is actually only at 14 ft above sea level.  

The freeze chance in Winter Haven is not far from that of Tampa AP (and the odds of not dropping below 36F are identical)

Really?!

Hm.

Climate like Tampa - but it's in Polk County, isn't it?  Veddy interesting.

Know anything about its sinkhole history?  Does high elevation offer any protection?

Winter Haven is far inland.  Seems like a good place to be if one is not near water!
 Exactly what we need - to not be near water.

St. Pete

Zone - a wacked-out place between 9b & 10

Elevation = 44' - not that it does any good

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Mid Florida Ridge is the likely reason for the Winter Haven and surrounding area's  somewhat moderated climate.

But Sunny, it isn't as good as where you are now. Fight the power, Sunny, and stand firm your ground, do not go gentle into that central Florida homesite.

Alan

Tampa, Florida

Zone - 10a

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But northern Polk was a victim of the great citrus-killing freezes in the 1980s.

In the 18th century, a nutty Englishman decided Florida's latitude made it perfect for growing olives and other Mediterranean crops, so he imported lots of people from British-occupied Minorca.  It was a disaster, though Minorcans are a persistent part of the Florida population and culture.  

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klimadiagramm

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(Alan_Tampa @ Jan. 07 2007,16:06)

QUOTE
Miami is not just the airport, lows below 32F are not that rare in all of Miami area (except the airport and Bal Harbor ha ha).

As a note even though frost can form when AIR temps are not yet 32F areas of  Redlands had frost this winter, early on this Fall/Winter and as noted this is a velvet glove kind of winter by most measures.

Colder in some spots way south than here in Tampa area, not the first time.

A grove owner (tropical fruit grove) in Redlands (right near Monkey Jungle) has told me that a light frost is to be expected nearly every year.

Alan

For people not familiar with Miami, the Redlands is a long ways away from Miami (20-30 miles?) in a rural agriculture section of Miami-Dade.  I was talking about within the city limits/close to downtown.  I realize the rural areas can get a frost, although they would not be severe frosts by any means usually.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...