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indicators of hardiness zones


Jimbean
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JimBeam-

Id say that one also has to look at the size of such plantings as well as the type.  And, the sheer number of such planting also has to play a role (i.e. if there is one single Royal palm in a given area, yet another area has the streets lined with them, the climate is probably warmer in the location with the Royal lined street).

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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(spockvr6 @ Jan. 05 2007,10:46)

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JimBeam-

Id say that one also has to look at the size of such plantings as well as the type.  And, the sheer number of such planting also has to play a role (i.e. if there is one single Royal palm in a given area, yet another area has the streets lined with them, the climate is probably warmer in the location with the Royal lined street).

Larry, usually that's true, and probably is for Florida, but as I pointed out in another thread, for example, they don't line streets with Royals in Deep South Texas.  Even though it is a solid zone 10.  One factor is the amount of precip they get (less than 30 inches annually).  And another factor is that they already lined all the RGV streets with Washingtonias way back when.  But that doesn't mean Royals aren't hardy, there are tons of them in private gardens.

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I was thinking of this when I was driving around between Brevard county and Orlando and looking at the frequency of  Brazian pepper trees.  I thought that they would be a good indicator of 9b since they are only really hindered by tempreture here in central Florida.  You find them quite a bit in central and south brevard and some right around Orlando.  The tepratures during freezes seem to go accordingly.  

I'll look at that link that ruskinPalms posted.

Brevard County, Fl

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(syersj @ Jan. 05 2007,10:55)

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(spockvr6 @ Jan. 05 2007,10:46)

QUOTE
JimBeam-

Id say that one also has to look at the size of such plantings as well as the type.  And, the sheer number of such planting also has to play a role (i.e. if there is one single Royal palm in a given area, yet another area has the streets lined with them, the climate is probably warmer in the location with the Royal lined street).

Larry, usually that's true, and probably is for Florida, but as I pointed out in another thread, for example, they don't line streets with Royals in Deep South Texas.  Even though it is a solid zone 10.  One factor is the amount of precip they get (less than 30 inches annually).  And another factor is that they already lined all the RGV streets with Washingtonias way back when.  But that doesn't mean Royals aren't hardy, there are tons of them in private gardens.

IMO, and I admit I use a stringent definition, a "real" Zone 10 supports Royal lined streets for 50-75-100 years!

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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(syersj @ Jan. 05 2007,10:55)

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But that doesn't mean Royals aren't hardy, there are tons of them in private gardens.

Risk takers like all of us!

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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Sorry.....Ray hasnt yet sent me that new medicine he has......

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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I know Ive posted some of these photos before....but this is what I mean.

If an area is a real Zone 10, there will be sights like these (and one wont have to look very hard to find them).  In fact, they will be impossible not to notice them.

tallerroyals.jpg

royals-street.jpg

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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(spockvr6 @ Jan. 05 2007,11:10)

QUOTE

(syersj @ Jan. 05 2007,10:55)

QUOTE

(spockvr6 @ Jan. 05 2007,10:46)

QUOTE
JimBeam-

Id say that one also has to look at the size of such plantings as well as the type.  And, the sheer number of such planting also has to play a role (i.e. if there is one single Royal palm in a given area, yet another area has the streets lined with them, the climate is probably warmer in the location with the Royal lined street).

Larry, usually that's true, and probably is for Florida, but as I pointed out in another thread, for example, they don't line streets with Royals in Deep South Texas.  Even though it is a solid zone 10.  One factor is the amount of precip they get (less than 30 inches annually).  And another factor is that they already lined all the RGV streets with Washingtonias way back when.  But that doesn't mean Royals aren't hardy, there are tons of them in private gardens.

IMO, and I admit I use a stringent definition, a "real" Zone 10 supports Royal lined streets for 50-75-100 years!

Depends on what you mean by "real" zone 10.  The RGV is a real zone 10, hands down.  But if you mean a location that never drops below 30F like south Florida, then no, they are not.  Once in a great while they will drop into the 20s, and once in a great, great while even low 20s (last time was in the 80s).  But the long term averages are in the 30s - 33.6 for the 60 year average, closer to 10B than 9B.  So yes, they are a real zone 10, but yes, they also do fall below 30F (infrequently).

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It's not a palm but mango trees with good sized girth are Zone 10 plants.

Larry, Please provide me your address.  I have some medicine to send you.

Tampa, Interbay Peninsula, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10A

Bokeelia, Pine Island, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10B

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Mangos 10a

brazilian peppers 9a not b

Crystostachys - zone smone= heaven

No part of florida not dependant on US 1 is a "real zone 10 by Larry's def" but anywhere a nice mango tree or a good number of backyard royals means it is close enough.  

Street plantings may or may not mean jackpoop.

Alan

Tampa, Florida

Zone - 10a

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(syersj @ Jan. 05 2007,11:50)

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Depends on what you mean by "real" zone 10.  

I mean-----

Take a bunch of small 1-2-3 gallon size Zone 10 palms, plant them, and come back in 50 years.  If they are still there, then the climate is suitable for Zone 10 plants.  

There are well defined areas where this will happen and where it wont.  Isnt that what matters, regardless of zone maps and calculated averages?

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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(spockvr6 @ Jan. 05 2007,16:11)

QUOTE

(syersj @ Jan. 05 2007,11:50)

QUOTE
Depends on what you mean by "real" zone 10.  

I mean-----

Take a bunch of small 1-2-3 gallon size Zone 10 palms, plant them, and come back in 50 years.  If they are still there, then the climate is suitable for Zone 10 plants.  

There are well defined areas where this will happen and where it wont.  Isnt that what matters, regardless of zone maps and calculated averages?

Larry, what you're talking about is zone 10b, borderline zone 11, that never drops below zone 10 temps.  A climate needs to be a zone 11 to be a "real" zone 10 under your definition, imo.  Your zone 10 would have been limited to extreme south FL in the 80s.

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(syersj @ Jan. 05 2007,21:43)

QUOTE

(spockvr6 @ Jan. 05 2007,16:11)

QUOTE

(syersj @ Jan. 05 2007,11:50)

QUOTE
Depends on what you mean by "real" zone 10.  

I mean-----

Take a bunch of small 1-2-3 gallon size Zone 10 palms, plant them, and come back in 50 years.  If they are still there, then the climate is suitable for Zone 10 plants.  

There are well defined areas where this will happen and where it wont.  Isnt that what matters, regardless of zone maps and calculated averages?

Larry, what you're talking about is zone 10b, borderline zone 11, that never drops below zone 10 temps.  A climate needs to be a zone 11 to be a "real" zone 10 under your definition, imo.  Your zone 10 would have been limited to extreme south FL in the 80s.

This is where it gets tricy I think.

I think that areas that didnt drop much below 9b (maybe even extremely high 9a on the worst ever events) might meet the very stringent definition.

When the Zone 10 palms go decades without seeing a freeze, they seem to be large enough to grunt through it a few times.  I use areas such as the warmer parts of St. Pete and Bradenton as examples.  Obviously, these areas have seen freezes in the past half century, but not frequently enough nor badly enough to harm too many of the Zone 10 "rated" palms/plants.  if an area is "rated" Zone 10 on the map, yet has seen 18-20F temps, then these same palms are probably not going to make it no matter how big they are.

I have looked at weather data and driven around different areas of central FL (especially west central) ad infinitum and this explanation is the only one which makes sense.

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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(Ray, Tampa @ Jan. 05 2007,12:59)

QUOTE
It's not a palm but mango trees with good sized girth are Zone 10 plants.

Absolutely Ray!

I have been told that this Mango tree in St. Pete is something around 100 years old!  I have no way to know if that is true or not, but being up close to this tree in person is quite awesome.  I didnt even know it was possible for them to be this size.  

mango1.jpg

mango2.jpg

mango3.jpg

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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Larry,

Are you walking the streets of Old Northeast St. Pete again?

Tampa, Interbay Peninsula, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10A

Bokeelia, Pine Island, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10B

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(Ray, Tampa @ Jan. 05 2007,12:59)

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Larry, Please provide me your address.  I have some medicine to send you.

I need a double dose!   LOL.

I try to be a realist with this stuff as this avoids disappointment  :angry:  

But, at the same time, I have thoughts that maybe we are in a nice extended warm period (much like decades ago...see the 1960 USDA map) and in central FL we will all be able to enjoy many of the semi-tender palms we all like so much for quite some time.  Please forgive me if someone reads this later this winter and it turns out I jinxed us :D

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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(Ray, Tampa @ Jan. 05 2007,22:23)

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Larry,

Are you walking the streets of Old Northeast St. Pete again?

You know me too well :D

I had probably 500 or so pictures from down there that I lost when my hard drive crashed last year.  So, Ive been trying, over time, to rebuild the library so to speak.  And, that area is no doubt the absolute peak of Pinellas when it comes to seeing large numbers and large sizes of interesting palms/plants.

Plus, its a great place to take a walk with a 2 year old!

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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(Alan_Tampa @ Jan. 05 2007,15:23)

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No part of florida not dependant on US 1 is a "real zone 10 by Larry's def" but anywhere a nice mango tree or a good number of backyard royals means it is close enough.  

See my "clarification" to the definition in reply to Jim's post!

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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If you could define a plant's cold hardiness by whether or not it could grow wild in a certain area, then by looking at the 1977 and the 1989 freezes you can say that climate changes about every other decade or so; mangroves, ficus, etc.

I don't know, there is no easy way to doing this, but it is always helpful though.

Brevard County, Fl

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(Alan_Tampa @ Jan. 05 2007,15:23)

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Street plantings may or may not mean jackpoop.

Alan

I am not talking about a few staked up Foxtails strewn along a median :P

I am talking about large towering palms planted back years before I was filling diapers  :D

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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I thought it would be helpful to use this method to determine microclimates.  I was also thinking to look at other plants besides palms, such as ficuses.

Brevard County, Fl

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(Jimbean @ Jan. 05 2007,22:34)

QUOTE
I thought it would be helpful to use this method to determine microclimates.  I was also thinking to look at other plants besides palms, such as ficuses.

I think Ficus can be a good indicator, especially if there are very large ones around.  

banyan-1.jpg

banyan.jpg

Who wouldnt want a Banyan if they could grow one (and of course had the space).  Although, I have seen a bunch of them crammed into some very small yards (and the house is barely visible!

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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(Alan_Tampa @ Jan. 05 2007,15:23)

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brazilian peppers 9a not b

Really, have you ever seen them freeze before?

Brevard County, Fl

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Heres another relatively good indicator palm (Veitchia).  A big one like this means the area is fairly warm.  But, even one this size doesnt mean as much as a large Royal or Coconut as these palms are fast.

Plants_07.jpg

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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Here is another good indiactor palm (Adonidia).

Now....one cant use any Adonidia as an indicator since Home Depot has probably sold 10,000,000 of them in the past 5 years.  But, ones of this size and girth are only seen in the warmer areas.  These palms are bigger than they look in the pictures.  

Plants_03.jpg

Plants_02.jpg

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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This is honestly one of the best indicators I have ever seen.

This is a Seagrape "shrub"!  They dont look like this very often.

Bradenton-October2006_08.jpg

Bradenton-October2006_04.jpg

Bradenton-October2006_05.jpg

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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(spockvr6 @ Jan. 05 2007,22:37)

QUOTE

(Jimbean @ Jan. 05 2007,22:34)

QUOTE
I thought it would be helpful to use this method to determine microclimates.  I was also thinking to look at other plants besides palms, such as ficuses.

I think Ficus can be a good indicator, especially if there are very large ones around.  

Who wouldnt want a Banyan if they could grow one (and of course had the space).  Although, I have seen a bunch of them crammed into some very small yards (and the house is barely visible!

I used to take a lot of road trips across the state (primarily on the east side), and there seems to be a succession of trees that grow as you head down into warmer areas.  The trees that seem to go together, and what I think would be a pretty good estimate for each "zone" is as follows:

9b

Casuarina glauca and cunninghamiana

old Syagrus romanzoffiana

old Schinus terebinthifolius

smaller ficuses and some 10a stuff

10a

Royestonia

Casuarina equisetifolia

large ficuses

10b

lots of exotic palms, most looking pretty healthy

Brevard County, Fl

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(Jimbean @ Jan. 05 2007,22:56)

QUOTE
what about native trees, like  ficus citrafolia, and aurua,

I have only seen Ficus aurea around here in the warmest areas.

But, interestingly enough, the cover of a "Principes" from (I believe) the 1950's showed a photo of a very large F. aurea in Daytona Beach of all places!

I seriously doubt there would be such a tree there now.

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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(spockvr6 @ Jan. 05 2007,22:15)

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When the Zone 10 palms go decades without seeing a freeze, they seem to be large enough to grunt through it a few times.  I use areas such as the warmer parts of St. Pete and Bradenton as examples.  Obviously, these areas have seen freezes in the past half century, but not frequently enough nor badly enough to harm too many of the Zone 10 "rated" palms/plants.  if an area is "rated" Zone 10 on the map, yet has seen 18-20F temps, then these same palms are probably not going to make it no matter how big they are.

Then nowhere in S TX meets this requirement, and I suspect VERY few places in Central FL either.  Because Deep S TX saw low 20s, possibly briefly upper teens once or twice in the 80s.  Might not see that for another 100 years as the 89 freeze was at least a 50-100 year freeze, but then again could.  Happened once, could happen again.

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(spockvr6 @ Jan. 05 2007,22:23)

QUOTE

(Ray @ Tampa,Jan. 05 2007,12:59)

QUOTE
Larry, Please provide me your address.  I have some medicine to send you.

I need a double dose!   LOL.

I try to be a realist with this stuff as this avoids disappointment  :angry:  

But, at the same time, I have thoughts that maybe we are in a nice extended warm period (much like decades ago...see the 1960 USDA map) and in central FL we will all be able to enjoy many of the semi-tender palms we all like so much for quite some time.  Please forgive me if someone reads this later this winter and it turns out I jinxed us :D

You just jinxed us :;): Don't jinx this run of warm weather!!!

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(spockvr6 @ Jan. 05 2007,11:11)

QUOTE

(syersj @ Jan. 05 2007,10:55)

QUOTE
But that doesn't mean Royals aren't hardy, there are tons of them in private gardens.

Risk takers like all of us!

No risk at all the last 16-17 years.

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(spockvr6 @ Jan. 05 2007,16:11)

QUOTE

(syersj @ Jan. 05 2007,11:50)

QUOTE
Depends on what you mean by "real" zone 10.  

I mean-----

Take a bunch of small 1-2-3 gallon size Zone 10 palms, plant them, and come back in 50 years.  If they are still there, then the climate is suitable for Zone 10 plants.  

There are well defined areas where this will happen and where it wont.  Isnt that what matters, regardless of zone maps and calculated averages?

Under your description, I can't plant any zone 9 palms either, because we have gotten in the single digits 3 or 4 times the last 100 years.  But, I plan on planting some risky zone 9 palms this year.  Why not, I've already got a bunch of "hardy" stuff in my yard.

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(spockvr6 @ Jan. 05 2007,22:37)

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Who wouldnt want a Banyan if they could grow one (and of course had the space).  Although, I have seen a bunch of them crammed into some very small yards (and the house is barely visible!

Here's my local Banyan down the street in Cypress Gardens. Microclimates are good things.  :)

cgbanyan1.jpg

cgbanyan2.jpg

cgbanyan3.jpg

Manuel Montesino

Cypress Gardens - Winter Haven, FL

The Chain of Lakes City

Avg. High: 84F; Avg. Low: 63F; Avg. Precip: 50 in.

Elevation: 150 ft.

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I was checking out our information on our hardiness zone here in Manaus and I came up with that we are in zone 13.  I found this at this site - South American Hardiness Zone Map  From what it shows only the very South and Southeastern Brazil are in zone 10 or lower.  I would say defining trees for our zone would be the Brazil Nut, Manicaria, Robber Tree - Hevea brasiliense, and others of the like.  The minimum temperature ever recorded in Manaus was 57 F I believe.  So, maybe minimums above 60 F would be the cut off point.  The map is interesting to see where vegetation from South America comes from that would be applicable to other areas.

Check out the thin blue lines

sazones.jpg

Don Kittelson

 

LIFE ON THE RIO NEGRO

03° 06' 07'' South 60° 01' 30'' West

Altitude 92 Meters / 308 feet above sea level

1,500 kms / 932 miles to the mouth of the Amazon River

 

Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil - A Cidade da Floresta

Where the world´s largest Tropical Rainforest embraces the Greatest Rivers in the World. .

82331.gif

 

Click here to visit Amazonas

amazonas2.jpg

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(syersj @ Jan. 05 2007,23:48)

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Then nowhere in S TX meets this requirement, and I suspect VERY few places in Central FL either.  

Absolutely correct.  There are only a few places in Central FL that meet this requirement.

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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(syersj @ Jan. 05 2007,23:54)

QUOTE

(spockvr6 @ Jan. 05 2007,11:11)

QUOTE

(syersj @ Jan. 05 2007,10:55)

QUOTE
But that doesn't mean Royals aren't hardy, there are tons of them in private gardens.

Risk takers like all of us!

No risk at all the last 16-17 years.

But, if they were planted 16-17 years ago, the planters didnt know that.   They could have gotten a year out of them or 20-30-40.  Who knows!

Hindsight is always 20-20!

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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(syersj @ Jan. 06 2007,00:08)

QUOTE
Under your description, I can't plant any zone 9 palms either, because we have gotten in the single digits 3 or 4 times the last 100 years.  But, I plan on planting some risky zone 9 palms this year.  Why not, I've already got a bunch of "hardy" stuff in my yard.

It doesnt mean you cant plant things that cant make it 50+ years, it just means that, in the very strictest sense, that history is against you over the very long term.  

But, all of this talk doesnt take away from the fun of trying.  The fact that there is a tinge of risk makes it somewhat exciting doesnt it?  If this were not the case, then there would be no such threads on this forum discussing such topics!  

So, in this regard, this is why I am playing devil's advocate.  It makes the conversation somewhat lively :D

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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