Cocoid Hybrid Update 2010

[Kailua_Krish]

Hi all,

Wanted to know if there was any update since last fall? I recently acquired a Jubutygrus from Tim Hopper and am in the process of acquiring Butia x Parajubaea, Jubaea x Syagrus, Butia x Jubaea, and Jubaea x Butia. The Butia x Syagrus in my yard are growing well and only had minimal tip damage from the nasty cold this winter, the looked nice enough that the neighbor bought some as focal points for his yard!

-Krishna

[buccaneers37]

Hi all,

Wanted to know if there was any update since last fall? I recently acquired a Jubutygrus from Tim Hopper and am in the process of acquiring Butia x Parajubaea, Jubaea x Syagrus, Butia x Jubaea, and Jubaea x Butia. The Butia x Syagrus in my yard are growing well and only had minimal tip damage from the nasty cold this winter, the looked nice enough that the neighbor bought some as focal points for his yard!

-Krishna

Where are you getting your Jubaea hybrids? I want one. I can locate fairly good sized ones in California, but they are too big to ship. Haven't found any around this area yet.

Wayne

[Kailua_Krish]

Im really curious to know what the exciting new secret hybrids Dick was talking about last year are. Maybe its now late enough to tell us?

-Krishna

P.S. Wayne, I sent you a PM.

[PalmGuyWC]

Sorry guys, but it's still to early to reveal what new hybrids Patrick has done. Most of the hybrid seeds were gathered late in the year and most have not germinated yet. The Butia and Jubaea hybrid seed can take up to a year (or more) to germinate. Some of the Syagrus hybrid seed are still on the trees and they wintered over. With warm weather the seeds should resume growth.

The hybrid seedlings look very much alike, and it takes awhile until the individual characteristics show. Patrick doesn't like to reveal new hybrids until he's sure they are what they are supposed to be. I'm afraid it will be a late seed crop this year as we have had a very cool spring in N. Calif. Warm weather is about 6 weeks behind this year. My night time minimums are still falling to 50F.

Dick

[iamjv]

Well it sounds like it will be a big reveal when the time comes.... As for my hybrids (BxS (fm Tim H.), JxB (a Merrill offspring), BxJ (fm Dick's famous tree), JxBxJ (fm Patric) & BxP (fm Patric) which all made it through the nasty winter, are now transplanted to my new home/garden. Hoping the better & deeper soil conditions here will work well for these and all of my palms. Jv

[Kailua_Krish]

Sorry guys, but it's still to early to reveal what new hybrids Patrick has done. Most of the hybrid seeds were gathered late in the year and most have not germinated yet. The Butia and Jubaea hybrid seed can take up to a year (or more) to germinate. Some of the Syagrus hybrid seed are still on the trees and they wintered over. With warm weather the seeds should resume growth.

The hybrid seedlings look very much alike, and it takes awhile until the individual characteristics show. Patrick doesn't like to reveal new hybrids until he's sure they are what they are supposed to be. I'm afraid it will be a late seed crop this year as we have had a very cool spring in N. Calif. Warm weather is about 6 weeks behind this year. My night time minimums are still falling to 50F.

Dick

Understandable but unfortunate Have you gotten your JxS and SxJ in the ground yet Dick? If so how are they growing? Jv, What does your JxBxJ look like? Any chance of a photo? I'll post mine in two weeks when I get home, I still am in school and graduate in a week and a half, can't believe college is over!

-Krishna

[iamjv]

Krishna, congrats on graduating! It's a wonderful feeling....

As for the JxBxJ, it's only a small one gallon and not really worth a picture at this time for it looks like any other butia-looking palm. I am eager to see it mature and see it's characteristics. Jv

[PalmGuyWC]

Krishna,

I'm afraid none of my palms have grown very much this year because it's been so cool in N. Calif. I have about 5 palms that I'd like to get in the ground, but I can't decide where to put them. I've run out of room. The only palm I have that is growing at a good rate is the Butia X Parajubaea, and it now has a trunk base of about 16 inches and still expanding.

I also have an "experimental" hybrid, Syagrus X Parajubaea tora tora. Patrick was not sure it was the real thing because it looks so much like a strap fronded Syagrus. I'm pretty sure it's a hybrid because it seems to have a heavier texture. The last frond on it was partially divided and the next frond should be pinnate. I would like to get it in the ground soon, as I'm anxious to see what it will grow into.

Dick

[Kailua_Krish]

Hi all,

So I finally got around to taking pictures of my new hybrids! They are very small but I think it is interesting to see the differences in leaf shape and texture between the cocoids!

First is a (JxB)xS I got from Tim Hopper this spring. It seems to be an intermediate of all the hybrids, or sort of "average" looking strap lleaves

Next is a Jubaea x Syagrus from Patric S. It has much shorter strap leaves than the others and is a deep green. Its leaves are also quite thick.

Here is Butia x Parajubaea. Its strap leaves are quite long and is an intermediate green color, but doesnt look like a butia. Its leaves are very long compared with the others.

Finally here is my Buta x Jubaea. It looks a lot like a Butia seedling but has longer more robust strap leaves.

Unfortunately my Jubaea x Butia was sacrificed by the squirrel gods...

-Krishna

[Kailua_Krish]

Also, cant help but post a photo of my largest hybrids, Butyagrus! These are such beautiful palms and so cold hardy!

P.S. I dont know why photobucket is making some of them sideways...

[freakypalmguy]

Very nice Krishna, love those hybrids.

[Kailua_Krish]

Yup! I can't wait until mine are larger but even as strap leaves they have brought me a lot of joy!

-Krishna

[Alberto]

Yup! I can't wait until mine are larger but even as strap leaves they have brought me a lot of joy!

-Krishna

Yes,I know this feeling!!!

Congratulations. This babies all look healthy!

[PalmGuyWC]

On June 1st, I planted my Jubaea X Syagrus and Syagrus X Parajubaea Toro Tora. They both have speeded up growth once in the ground. They were both 5 gal size and had good root systems. The Syagrus X Para at this stage of growth looks like a Syagrus, but has a slightly heavier texture. I'm hoping, being half Syagrus, that it will be somewhat more cold hardy than a pure Parajubaea, and as it grows should show some hybrid characteristics.

Dick

[Palm crazy]

I lost my Jubutjub (JxBxJ) (from Patrick) this last winter at 12F, why I didn't protect it more I don't know, I can be so stubborn sometimes! It was only about a 2 gallon size.

I raised it as a two year old seedling and planted last summer. Been thinking about getting another. Maybe?

Glad to say I did protect my two small (JxB)xS and one is growing in quite a bit of shade with only a few hours of full sunlight, while the other much younger is in more sun. Kinda slow in my cool climate but they are picking up speed with age.

Nice pics Krishna.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Palm crazy

[Kailua_Krish]

Dick, I hate to ask again but the anticipation is killing me. Is it late enough in the year to tell us what the new mystery hybrids are?

Palm Crazy, That is really unfortunate about the JxBxJ I bet if it had been a bit bigger it would have survived, but I dont really know a ton about your climate so Im not really qualified to make that statement

-Krishna

[PalmGuyWC]

Dick, I hate to ask again but the anticipation is killing me. Is it late enough in the year to tell us what the new mystery hybrids are?

Palm Crazy, That is really unfortunate about the JxBxJ I bet if it had been a bit bigger it would have survived, but I dont really know a ton about your climate so Im not really qualified to make that statement

-Krishna

Krishna,

I know anticipation is hell, but Patrick is not ready yet to reveal his new hybrids. The reason is they are still small seedlings and he's not sure they are truly hybrids. Perhaps by the end of summer they will be large enough to show hybrid characteristics. Unfortunately they all look the same when they are seedlings, and they are very slow growing in the early stages.

Dick

[iamjv]

Don't know what conditions your JxBxJ saw at 12F temp that killed it but my JxBxJ from Patrick (2 gal size) saw 16F (with frost) this winter and came out of it without a mark on it. Sorry to hear you lost yours. Jv

[Palm crazy]

JV it was 12F-13F for three nights in a row with highs only in the low 30's. Clear as a bell too. Coldest in 11 years and two nights were new record lows for those days.

The leaves were pretty long for a 2 gallon. Nice to hear yours made it. I did have a nice surprise with Livistona chinensis and Arenga engleri grew back, both 1 gallons. They are not in the open thou.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Palm crazy

[iamjv]

I imagine it was the duration of such temperatures then that killed yours... that amount of cold will kill a lot of palms, even hardy ones. I was lucky, our 16F degree event was for a single night, with the following night in the low 20s. Jv

[NBTX11]

I imagine it was the duration of such temperatures then that killed yours... that amount of cold will kill a lot of palms, even hardy ones. I was lucky, our 16F degree event was for a single night, with the following night in the low 20s. Jv

Also, if you recall, on that 16F night, it was bright and sunny the following morning and warmed up reasonably fast.

[iamjv]

Yeah that is a good point Jim.... it did warm up a bit the next day. Jv

[PalmGuyWC]

Patrick Schafer is here early this morning working on the Bujubaea using pollen from the Butyagrus from the Oakland Palmatum. He's used Butyagrus pollen on various kinds of Butias as well as Syagrus and my Bujubaea with no success. Let's hope persistence pays off eventually.

Tomorrow Don Hodel is driving all the way from LA to do a monograph on my Bujubaea. It has several spathes that have opened and two more that are near opening. Don believes that the Bujubaea at Huntington Gardens and mine came from the same seed lot, as they are about the same size and look alike.

Because of the extended cool weather this year, many of my Butias are just now pushing out spathes. This will not be a good seed year because of the late bloom of many of the palms. It will be a race against time for the seeds to mature before cool weather sets in.

Dick

[iamjv]

Lets hope you and Patrick get lucky with the seeds maturing!!! Jv

[Mark Heath]

Yup! I can't wait until mine are larger but even as strap leaves they have brought me a lot of joy!

-Krishna

Krishna,

I totally agree, mine have been a pleasure to watch grow as well. When you visit you'll get to see what some of your hybrids from Patrick will look like in a few years!

[Rch65]

Hello all, great thread and great pictures Kris. Does anyone know if there is a hybrid of J x P avaliable? Regards Rich.

[Kailua_Krish]

Yup! I can't wait until mine are larger but even as strap leaves they have brought me a lot of joy!

-Krishna

Krishna,

I totally agree, mine have been a pleasure to watch grow as well. When you visit you'll get to see what some of your hybrids from Patrick will look like in a few years!

I will make it eventually, I promise!

Rch65, As far as I know there is not a J x P yet, but I really havent been paying attention enough to know since I doubt it would grow in Florida!

-Krishna

[Rch65]

Cheers Kris, I will just have to keep my eyes open for any developments. Good luck with your hybrids. I also purchased a Jubutygrus from Tim Hopper to try here in the U.K, I cant really say that it has taken off perhaps due to transportation stress or maybe our temperatures are just too cool (average 23c - 73f). I would love to see how your one gets on this summer as a comparison to mine. Regards Rich.

[iamjv]

Don't believe JxP has been produced yet but I am hoping that is one of the hybrids Patrick is working on and has success creating. Jv

[Rch65]

Cheers Jv, this is one hybrid I would love to try, fingers crossed.

[PalmGuyWC]

Patrick has tried to cross Parajubaea with Jubaea several times with no success. Jubaea has been crossed with Syagrus, Butia and Bujubaea.

Dick

[PalmGuyWC]

Patrick has tried to cross Parajubaea with Jubaea several times with no success. Jubaea has been crossed with Syagrus, Butia and Bujubaea.

Dick

I should have mentioned that using Jubaea pollen as the donor, that its also been crossed with Syagrus, Butia and Bujubaea. I guess one would call these the reverse crosses. The strap fronds on the Syagrus X Jubaea cross look entirely different from the other crosses. They are wide, stubby and have a heavy texture. I can't wait until it grows a pinnate frond.

Here is a list of the cocoid hybrids that I have.

Butia X Syagrus, the mule. (3 old ones about 35 years old)

Butia X Jubaea (about 35 years old)

All of the following are less than 10 years old:

Butia X Parajubaea C

Jubaea X Syagrus

Syagrus X Jubaea

Syagrus X Parajubaea TVT

Bujubaea X Syagrus

Syagrus X Bujubaea

Bujubaea X Butia

Skizophylla (Spelling ?) X Syagrus F2 (small strap fronded plant)

I'm hoping to get some pictures posted by the end of summer.

Dick

[Rch65]

Fantastic collection Dick, what is the lowest temps they have experienced? Regards Rich.

[iamjv]

No doubt the best collection of hybrids in N. America if not the world.... keep pictures coming of all of these hybrids. Jv

[PalmGuyWC]

Rich,

None of my younger hybrids have experienced lower than 23.5 F (-5C), and they have had no cold damage. In the great freeze of 89/90 my low was 14F (-10C). The Butia X Jubaea showed no damage while the Butia X Syagrus had all the lower fronds burned off, but they recovered with no permanent damage.

Dick

[Rch65]

That is very interesting Dick, it gives me hope for the young hybrids I have (XJubutyagrus, Jubaea x Butia and Butiagrus)as my low was also -5 on a few occasions. I shall bring them inside on the coldest nights for the first few years and look forward to watching them develop. I will be looking for a butia x parajubaea in the autumn, if you know of anyone who has this palm and are willing to post to the U.K please let me know. Cheers Dick, regards Rich.

[PalmGuyWC]

Rich,

As far as I know, Patrick Schafer is the only person that has Butia X Parajubaea available. His E-mail address is coolhybrids@wildblue.net Of all the cocoid hybrids B X P is my favorite and also the fastest growing. I would think it should do well in the UK. Mine gets full sun from sun up until about 3 PM, then bright shade the rest of the day.

Dick

[Rch65]

Thank you so much Dick much appreciated, I will send an email to Patrick. Good luck with your hybrids and keep the photo's coming they are great. Regards Rich.

[PalmGuyWC]

We were somewhat dubious about its lineage, but my Syagrus X Para TVT has opened it's first complete pinnate frond. It is on a flat plane and not plumose, which leads me to believe it really is a hybrid. In spite of our abnormal cool nights this year, It's growing at a good rate. I should know more by the end of summer when it adds a couple more fronds and the trunk shows some character. I rather doubt this will be a very cold hardy hybrid, but it should do well for those in zone 9, and it has the potential of being a very pretty palm.

Dick

[Kailua_Krish]

We were somewhat dubious about its lineage, but my Syagrus X Para TVT has opened it's first complete pinnate frond. It is on a flat plane and not plumose, which leads me to believe it really is a hybrid. In spite of our abnormal cool nights this year, It's growing at a good rate. I should know more by the end of summer when it adds a couple more fronds and the trunk shows some character. I rather doubt this will be a very cold hardy hybrid, but it should do well for those in zone 9, and it has the potential of being a very pretty palm.

Dick

Are you thinking a 9a or 9b climate?

-Krishna