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Global warming effects


Gaston in Argentina
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From the article:

"We are finally seeing species going extinct," said University of Texas biologist Camille Parmesan, author of the study. "Now we've got the evidence. It's here. It's real. This is not just biologists' intuition. It's what's happening."

......."I feel as though we are staring crisis in the face," Futuyma said. "It's not just down the road somewhere. It is just hurtling toward us. Anyone who is 10 years old right now is going to be facing a very different and frightening world by the time that they are 50 or 60."

Thank you for posting this, Gaston.  I wish these reports and the seriousness of the situation would spur the nations' leaders into action.  Even if we all started trying to combat the problem now, it would be daunting.  But sadly, we're not doing nearly enough.

St. Pete

Zone - a wacked-out place between 9b & 10

Elevation = 44' - not that it does any good

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"We're FINALLY seeing species going extinct..." !!?? - - - Sounds like she's really thrilled this is happening! :(

Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

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The biggest problem is that it is very difficult, if not impossible to quantify the human influence.  I dare say in previous planetary warming cycles (and cooling cycles for that matter), many species would have become extinct, but equally that should be counteracted by climatic changes causing natural mutations giving rise to new species.  If the warming process has been accelerated, which is almost definite, there is no way of knowing by how much or what difference that will make in terms of the quantity of species that face extinction.  No doubt, humans will interfere further by trying to save various species, again with no idea of the possible effects of their actions.  Humans should be devoting their attention to minimising their impact on the earth, rather than trying to put right things that they don't even know are wrong.  Unfortunately with global population growing and more countries becoming more developed, even with the efforts of some governments, human impact will continue to increase until something else stops it, unless we can reach a point of total sustainability, which looks some way off.

]

Corey Lucas-Divers

Dorset, UK

Ave Jul High 72F/22C (91F/33C Max)

Ave Jul Low 52F/11C (45F/7C Min)

Ave Jan High 46F/8C (59F/15C Max)

Ave Jan Low 34F/1C (21F/-6C Min)

Ave Rain 736mm pa

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I heard on the radio last week that pollution may actually be SLOWING global warming. Seems it helps difuse the suns rays. Once again, depends on which side of the argument you fall...

If global warming means I can grow Cocos Nucifera, then bring it on....

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(Neofolis @ Nov. 23 2006,01:25)

QUOTE
The biggest problem is that it is very difficult, if not impossible to quantify the human influence.

Right there, that says it.   I have a hard time believing that we mere humans can change the weather globally in a hundred years or so, any more than earth has been doing on its own for millenia.  Maybe a teeny amount, but how can you measure that other than to make assumptions?

Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."

"Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

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I don't think it is wise to under estimate the potential power of humans on a global scale.  Us mere humans would be quite capable of exhausting oil and mineral deposits that have taken millions of years to create.  There's just too many of us.  Using the nuclear example, how many of us would it take to totally destroy the earth.  Atomic explosions are a very good example of how us mere humans can influence the weather.

Whilst our influence may be unquantifiable, surely it is better to err on the side of caution, rather than make the alternative assumption that everything will be OK.  If it turns out that everything will not be OK, the potential is devastating, however, if it turns out that it would have been OK, then we have done no harm by making an effort to live more sustainable lives.

]

Corey Lucas-Divers

Dorset, UK

Ave Jul High 72F/22C (91F/33C Max)

Ave Jul Low 52F/11C (45F/7C Min)

Ave Jan High 46F/8C (59F/15C Max)

Ave Jan Low 34F/1C (21F/-6C Min)

Ave Rain 736mm pa

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(Neofolis @ Nov. 23 2006,11:40)

QUOTE
I don't think it is wise to under estimate the potential power of humans on a global scale.  Us mere humans would be quite capable of exhausting oil and mineral deposits that have taken millions of years to create.  There's just too many of us.  Using the nuclear example, how many of us would it take to totally destroy the earth.  Atomic explosions are a very good example of how us mere humans can influence the weather.

Whilst our influence may be unquantifiable, surely it is better to err on the side of caution, rather than make the alternative assumption that everything will be OK.  If it turns out that everything will not be OK, the potential is devastating, however, if it turns out that it would have been OK, then we have done no harm by making an effort to live more sustainable lives.

Let's say, for arguments sake, that I'm convinced that pollution is slowing the effects of global warming. That without pollution, we would already be way above normal avg temps, and headed for doom. That would mean that someones hybrid car is ruining our planet, and the "let's do something" crowd is actually the culprit.  Wouldn't that be an irony? It's almost like religion...who's right? Or, better still, does it matter?

If global warming means I can grow Cocos Nucifera, then bring it on....

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to test whether we humans can significantly alter our surroundings I propose we all flush our toilets at, say, midnight GMT - let's set this ripple into effect

one thing is certain - all anyone has to do to elicit a comment from Steve is mention global warming

another take on the "think globally/act locally" maxim - it matters little whether or not I set the world on fire, as long as I can keep my own a$$ warm

I get by with a little help from my fronds

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Unfortunately with global population growing and more countries becoming more developed, even with the efforts of some governments, human impact will continue to increase until something else stops it, unless we can reach a point of total sustainability, which looks some way off.

We just have to face facts,  the sheer number of people on the planet now and the need to feed them is increasing the destruction of habitat in many countries;  Australia, Brazil, Borneo India, Africa,  attempts to convert land into productive farms will in many cases cause desertification as well as species extinctions.    I am not saying that these phenomena would not occur naturally,  its just man does alter his environment,  and the more men there are, the more of the environment is altered and the faster its altered.

Picture an oasis.  Water enough for 500 people and some date palms,  put 5000 people into that oasis and its a disaster.  Its not sustainable.  But maybe it is if you build a nuclear power plant,  a desalination plant build some  fast food restaraunts and import 10,000 tonnes of bird droppings each year they could survive..... Picture the oasis now !

Recently I was in central Sudan.  I asked the locals if there were any wild animals [  was it safe to walk in the open]   they said there were no wild animals left.  All hunted, killed and eaten.   Now there is an active programme of food drops into Sudan to ease the starvation there.

chris.oz

Bayside Melbourne 38 deg S. Winter Minimum 0 C over past 6 years

Yippee, the drought is over.

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QUOTE The most noticeable changes in plants and animals have to do with earlier springs, Parmesan said. The best example can be seen in earlier cherry blossoms and grape harvests

  Gaston,something I ´ve noticed last years is that the ipê-amarelo (Tabebuia alba) is flowering almost 1 month earlier the last years. Have you seen something similar in Argentina?

 BTW We had our driest winter in +-100years.......

     ´´Something is hapenning with the Earth!´´

Carambeí, 2nd tableland of the State Paraná , south Brazil.

Alt:1030m. Native palms: Queen, B. eriospatha, B. microspadix, Allagoptera leucocalyx , A.campestris, Geonoma schottiana, Trithrinax acanthocoma. Subtr. climate, some frosty nights. No dry season. August: driest month. Rain:1700mm

 

I am seeking for cold hardy palms!

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(STEVE IN SO CAL @ Nov. 23 2006,19:21)

QUOTE
Let's say, for arguments sake, that I'm convinced that pollution is slowing the effects of global warming. That without pollution, we would already be way above normal avg temps, and headed for doom. That would mean that someones hybrid car is ruining our planet, and the "let's do something" crowd is actually the culprit.  Wouldn't that be an irony? It's almost like religion...who's right? Or, better still, does it matter?

Steve that is exactly my point about reducing our influence.  Whether we are increasing or decreasing the rate of change, we need to reduce our effect on those changes.  I don't think anyone thinks that the planets normal cycle of warming and cooling can be described as heading for doom, it has already happened too many times, change maybe.  If the polution is slowing down the rate of temperature increase then we still need to reduce our influence, so that it gets back to the rate it naturally increases at.  So the hybrid car driver is still doing the right thing, even though in this scenario, he is aiding global warming.

]

Corey Lucas-Divers

Dorset, UK

Ave Jul High 72F/22C (91F/33C Max)

Ave Jul Low 52F/11C (45F/7C Min)

Ave Jan High 46F/8C (59F/15C Max)

Ave Jan Low 34F/1C (21F/-6C Min)

Ave Rain 736mm pa

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Frankly I reckon some of youse guys should jump outa them Doomesday couches and perhaps bear in mind the natural atmosphere on Planet Earth changes and has indeed changed drastically several times on this planet  for millenia.

Mostly for the better as far as Palms go I reckon . . .

and we humans wouldnt be here either if it hadnt been that way.

Regardez my friends

Juan

Juan

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(STEVE IN SO CAL @ Nov. 23 2006,09:34)

QUOTE
I heard on the radio last week that pollution may actually be SLOWING global warming. Seems it helps difuse the suns rays.

by 'pollution' i guess you mean 'smog'? so the theory is smog in the cities is diffusing worldwide global warming ... basically the more smog the better then? we should actually be making more pollution to save ourselves  from the warming? you heard it on the radio huh? sounds like the upside down backward rantings of Rush. lets enjoy those burning eyes and labored breathing cos we're diffusing global warming. oh brother.

 as for it being hard to quantify mankinds influence, a recent major study shows all of the worlds oceans- 77% of the planets surface being 'fished out' by the year 2048. and of course almost all of the worlds oil being gone in 30 years. does that quantify it? mankind has a tremendous effect on everything here.

  of course, you can always hide your head in the sand if you want.

  personally i don't think it matters anymore as what needed to be done needed to be done 40 years ago. thats when our leaders, as they still do, decided to ignore the facts/scientific theories. as i'm in my 50s it won't affect me too much, its our children who will suffer the major effects.

  just a sad thought. :angry:

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(chris.oz @ Nov. 23 2006,16:59)

QUOTE
Unfortunately with global population growing and more countries becoming more developed, even with the efforts of some governments, human impact will continue to increase until something else stops it, unless we can reach a point of total sustainability, which looks some way off.

We just have to face facts,  the sheer number of people on the planet now and the need to feed them is increasing the destruction of habitat in many countries;  Australia, Brazil, Borneo India, Africa,  attempts to convert land into productive farms will in many cases cause desertification as well as species extinctions.    I am not saying that these phenomena would not occur naturally,  its just man does alter his environment,  and the more men there are, the more of the environment is altered and the faster its altered.

Picture an oasis.  Water enough for 500 people and some date palms,  put 5000 people into that oasis and its a disaster.  Its not sustainable.  But maybe it is if you build a nuclear power plant,  a desalination plant build some  fast food restaraunts and import 10,000 tonnes of bird droppings each year they could survive..... Picture the oasis now !

Recently I was in central Sudan.  I asked the locals if there were any wild animals [  was it safe to walk in the open]   they said there were no wild animals left.  All hunted, killed and eaten.   Now there is an active programme of food drops into Sudan to ease the starvation there.

Cris,

I have no argument with your statement, but it is important to note that here in Amazonia the biggest factor in conversion of forest land is the duo Cattle ranching/agro business soy bean cultivation.  The initial conversion from forest normally is to advance the cattle raising front (Brazil currently has the largest cattle herd in the world, over 180 million head) and as the land loses productivity for grass land it is converted many times to soy bean farms.  Soy farm agro business has moved actively into northern Mato Grosso, Para (especially around Santarem), and Southern Amazonas.  The main market for these soy beans for export is to make animal feed, mostly for raising cattle in the developed world.  Although China also buys a lot of the soybeans.  Maybe you could say, Eat Beef and destroy the Rain Forest.  As I have said in posts before the focus needs to be place value on the forest by using it for sustainable management.  That doesn't mean one needs to eliminate farming, just do it rationally.  And, it doesn't mean not cutting down trees, it means harvesting wood in a sustainably managed manner.  And, it is important to generate income to raise living standards in our region to perserve the environment.  All of this is tied together.

As to the oil question, Corey cited  the exhaustion of the Earths oil supplies.  There are alternative views to this.  The Abiotic oil formation theory developed by the Russians claims that oil is not formed only by organic processes from fossils, but was formed deep in the Earths crust and is constantly leaking upwards replenishing reserves.  Not, that oil is the best fuel, it does pollute.  But, I have a suspicion that there is more to the oil story than people have thought.  And, we may be a long way from depleting the resource.

Here is a link on the Abiotic source. Abiotic Oil

dk

Don Kittelson

 

LIFE ON THE RIO NEGRO

03° 06' 07'' South 60° 01' 30'' West

Altitude 92 Meters / 308 feet above sea level

1,500 kms / 932 miles to the mouth of the Amazon River

 

Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil - A Cidade da Floresta

Where the world´s largest Tropical Rainforest embraces the Greatest Rivers in the World. .

82331.gif

 

Click here to visit Amazonas

amazonas2.jpg

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As you mentioned Don oil has other problems as a fuel source, but even if the reserves are being replenished, we are still using it at a greater rate than it is being produced, so it will be exhausted at some point.

I only see two alternatives at this point, either an extreme reduction in human population or find some other planets to rape of their resources and/or inhabit.  Even if more people start taking sustainable living more seriously, there is enormous change required.

]

Corey Lucas-Divers

Dorset, UK

Ave Jul High 72F/22C (91F/33C Max)

Ave Jul Low 52F/11C (45F/7C Min)

Ave Jan High 46F/8C (59F/15C Max)

Ave Jan Low 34F/1C (21F/-6C Min)

Ave Rain 736mm pa

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Corey,

Do you have any ideas on how the human population can be extremely reduced aside from nuclear war, mass famine,  radical climate change, or plagues?

dk

Don Kittelson

 

LIFE ON THE RIO NEGRO

03° 06' 07'' South 60° 01' 30'' West

Altitude 92 Meters / 308 feet above sea level

1,500 kms / 932 miles to the mouth of the Amazon River

 

Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil - A Cidade da Floresta

Where the world´s largest Tropical Rainforest embraces the Greatest Rivers in the World. .

82331.gif

 

Click here to visit Amazonas

amazonas2.jpg

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(Alberto @ Nov. 23 2006,19:08)

QUOTE
QUOTE The most noticeable changes in plants and animals have to do with earlier springs, Parmesan said. The best example can be seen in earlier cherry blossoms and grape harvests

  Gaston,something I ´ve noticed last years is that the ipê-amarelo (Tabebuia alba) is flowering almost 1 month earlier the last years. Have you seen something similar in Argentina?

 BTW We had our driest winter in +-100years.......

     ´´Something is hapenning with the Earth!´´

Alberto,

Do you attribute the changes in flowering times of the Tabebuias to the percipitation or the temperature?  In contrast to your area we have had a very moist year and I believe this is also the case in the Northeast.  Last year was the driest year in many with the lowest water levels in 100 years in some areas.  But, this year has been totally different.  As has been mentioned in this thread it is really hard to tell what the overall changes are or impacts.  Not that man does not affect them.  But, when compared to fluctuations in solar radiation for example this can be minor.  There is still a lot of unknowns in the whole situation.

dk

Don Kittelson

 

LIFE ON THE RIO NEGRO

03° 06' 07'' South 60° 01' 30'' West

Altitude 92 Meters / 308 feet above sea level

1,500 kms / 932 miles to the mouth of the Amazon River

 

Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil - A Cidade da Floresta

Where the world´s largest Tropical Rainforest embraces the Greatest Rivers in the World. .

82331.gif

 

Click here to visit Amazonas

amazonas2.jpg

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(palmblues @ Nov. 25 2006,02:41)

QUOTE

(STEVE IN SO CAL @ Nov. 23 2006,09:34)

QUOTE
I heard on the radio last week that pollution may actually be SLOWING global warming. Seems it helps difuse the suns rays.

by 'pollution' i guess you mean 'smog'? so the theory is smog in the cities is diffusing worldwide global warming ... basically the more smog the better then? we should actually be making more pollution to save ourselves  from the warming? you heard it on the radio huh? sounds like the upside down backward rantings of Rush. lets enjoy those burning eyes and labored breathing cos we're diffusing global warming. oh brother.

 as for it being hard to quantify mankinds influence, a recent major study shows all of the worlds oceans- 77% of the planets surface being 'fished out' by the year 2048. and of course almost all of the worlds oil being gone in 30 years. does that quantify it? mankind has a tremendous effect on everything here.

  of course, you can always hide your head in the sand if you want.

  personally i don't think it matters anymore as what needed to be done needed to be done 40 years ago. thats when our leaders, as they still do, decided to ignore the facts/scientific theories. as i'm in my 50s it won't affect me too much, its our children who will suffer the major effects.

  just a sad thought. :angry:

I think you missed my point...there's extreme, unsubstantiated views on both sides. The battle of the scientists/researchers, all trying to prove that their grant money wasn't wasted. Don't be so quick to forget...back in the '70's we were headed for another ice age...what happened to that disaster?

The new religion of environmentalism is fascinating to me. There is no proof that Jesus, Muhammed, etc ever existed, but millions dedicate their lives to the belief.

My "sin" is not believing that man causes global warming...how long til someone from Greenpeace saws my head off with a dull knife?

I remember as a young man seeing the pictures of clear cutting in the northwest...it was total devastation,and I was appalled, willing to join the fight to outlaw clear cutting. Many years later, when flying to Seattle, I flew over much of the northwest, and got a much different perspective. Millions upon millions of acres of pine forests...clear cutting hardly visable from 30,000 feet.

I realized I had been duped by fanatical enviros, much like PETA. Now, whenever I hear their drumbeats, I look at their issues with skeptisism.

Is there pollution? of course....I enjoy spending time in our local mountains, and always bring out more trash than I bring in. I'm old enough to remember when littering was common..now it's uncommon. I support ending pollution, I just don't think environmentalist should be given a blank check.

If global warming means I can grow Cocos Nucifera, then bring it on....

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(amazondk @ Nov. 25 2006,09:34)

QUOTE

(Alberto @ Nov. 23 2006,19:08)

QUOTE
QUOTE The most noticeable changes in plants and animals have to do with earlier springs, Parmesan said. The best example can be seen in earlier cherry blossoms and grape harvests

  Gaston,something I ´ve noticed last years is that the ipê-amarelo (Tabebuia alba) is flowering almost 1 month earlier the last years. Have you seen something similar in Argentina?

 BTW We had our driest winter in +-100years.......

     ´´Something is hapenning with the Earth!´´

Alberto,

Do you attribute the changes in flowering times of the Tabebuias to the percipitation or the temperature?  In contrast to your area we have had a very moist year and I believe this is also the case in the Northeast.  Last year was the driest year in many with the lowest water levels in 100 years in some areas.  But, this year has been totally different.  As has been mentioned in this thread it is really hard to tell what the overall changes are or impacts.  Not that man does not affect them.  But, when compared to fluctuations in solar radiation for example this can be minor.  There is still a lot of unknowns in the whole situation.

dk

...Temperature! Last winters are warmer than normal!

Carambeí, 2nd tableland of the State Paraná , south Brazil.

Alt:1030m. Native palms: Queen, B. eriospatha, B. microspadix, Allagoptera leucocalyx , A.campestris, Geonoma schottiana, Trithrinax acanthocoma. Subtr. climate, some frosty nights. No dry season. August: driest month. Rain:1700mm

 

I am seeking for cold hardy palms!

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Steve,

As I am sure you are aware I live right in middle of one of the areas highest on the environmentalists list of disaster.  As you said, both radical sides on the side of an issue are normally not the way things really are.  What I see happening frequently is that by complicating the economics of making things work the NGO's frequently promote economic stagnation which leads to even more destruction as the local people living in the area are continuously trapped in a cycle of poverty.  I really do not see them coming in with solutions.  Not that they are not an influence for positive change, in many cases they are.  One good example is the local caiman population.  We have so many of the beasts now that the fishing is being impacted in many places.  Why don't we hear the NGO's pushing for a change in the law allowing for the sustainable harvest of caimans for meat and skins.  The beasts are getting very large, over 6 meters frequently and when out on a river at night with a flashlight the number of eyes in the water sometimes looks like a moonless night sky.   There is a local joke that goes "If you are out in the forest alone and meet up with a jaguar and an official from IBAMA (the federal environmental police) who do you shoot?" The common answer would be the IBAMA cop, if you shoot the jaguar you would go to jail.  I have been out in the wild parts of the forest enough here to realize that being attacked by a jaguar is a real risk, and I always feel better when the guys I am with are armed.  I normally walk in the middle of the group, the guy in the front runs the risk of being bitten by a snake, and the guy in the back the risk of being picked off by a jaguar or cougar.  Actually the local cougar (called Onça vermelha) is more dangerous than the jaguar (Onça pintada).   Not that I am in favor of shooting IBAMA employees, in fact one was shot week before last north of here in Roraima while attempting to stop illegal turtle traffickers.  What is needed is that here in our region those in charge of environmental controls help things work instead of making them more difficult for political or personal gain.

dk

Don Kittelson

 

LIFE ON THE RIO NEGRO

03° 06' 07'' South 60° 01' 30'' West

Altitude 92 Meters / 308 feet above sea level

1,500 kms / 932 miles to the mouth of the Amazon River

 

Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil - A Cidade da Floresta

Where the world´s largest Tropical Rainforest embraces the Greatest Rivers in the World. .

82331.gif

 

Click here to visit Amazonas

amazonas2.jpg

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Alberto,

It would be interesting to understand if the tree flowers based on moisture, temperature, or on hours of daylight.  I really don't know what would be the main factor. I would say that here in Amazonas anyway that hours of sunlight should not make much difference as there is so little variation.  That is unless small varitiations make a difference.  I also don't think that temperatures would make much of a difference as there is so little varitiation in temperature.  But, percipitation would make a difference for sure.   Maybe someone has an answer for this.

dk

Don Kittelson

 

LIFE ON THE RIO NEGRO

03° 06' 07'' South 60° 01' 30'' West

Altitude 92 Meters / 308 feet above sea level

1,500 kms / 932 miles to the mouth of the Amazon River

 

Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil - A Cidade da Floresta

Where the world´s largest Tropical Rainforest embraces the Greatest Rivers in the World. .

82331.gif

 

Click here to visit Amazonas

amazonas2.jpg

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Don, those black caimen are monsters, if they come up in conversation with people who think they are "into reptiles" they act like I am making the animal up.  The yellow bellied caimen gets rather large as well, any of these near you?  

The jungle cats do not screw around, they track prey for as long as it takes.  Leave the catnip at home, but bring the 50 cal.

These environmentalists are usually driven to "protect" wildlife and forget people.  They paint a horrid picture with components of reality, but rarely is this picture accurate.  As I have said till it hurts: Sustainable harvest.

The thing about the world's oceans being depleted in 50 years or whatever is....crap.  Total crap, Stinky crap.  

Alan

Tampa, Florida

Zone - 10a

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(amazondk @ Nov. 25 2006,13:22)

QUOTE
Steve,

As I am sure you are aware I live right in middle of one of the areas highest on the environmentalists list of disaster.  As you said, both radical sides on the side of an issue are normally not the way things really are.  What I see happening frequently is that by complicating the economics of making things work the NGO's frequently promote economic stagnation which leads to even more destruction as the local people living in the area are continuously trapped in a cycle of poverty.  I really do not see them coming in with solutions.  Not that they are not an influence for positive change, in many cases they are.  One good example is the local caiman population.  We have so many of the beasts now that the fishing is being impacted in many places.  Why don't we hear the NGO's pushing for a change in the law allowing for the sustainable harvest of caimans for meat and skins.  The beasts are getting very large, over 6 meters frequently and when out on a river at night with a flashlight the number of eyes in the water sometimes looks like a moonless night sky.   There is a local joke that goes "If you are out in the forest alone and meet up with a jaguar and an official from IBAMA (the federal environmental police) who do you shoot?" The common answer would be the IBAMA cop, if you shoot the jaguar you would go to jail.  I have been out in the wild parts of the forest enough here to realize that being attacked by a jaguar is a real risk, and I always feel better when the guys I am with are armed.  I normally walk in the middle of the group, the guy in the front runs the risk of being bitten by a snake, and the guy in the back the risk of being picked off by a jaguar or cougar.  Actually the local cougar (called Onça vermelha) is more dangerous than the jaguar (Onça pintada).   Not that I am in favor of shooting IBAMA employees, in fact one was shot week before last north of here in Roraima while attempting to stop illegal turtle traffickers.  What is needed is that here in our region those in charge of environmental controls help things work instead of making them more difficult for political or personal gain.

dk

As an inventor and business owner, I'm more apt to charge in head first to solve the problem, than to wring my hands. I read in the paper the other day how the oceans are being depleted of fish, especially the inshore species. Large areas of coastal Calif are slated for a ban on fishing(even sportfishing).

Instead of banning fishing, create more fish...how?...by creating more habitat. Look how successful Ducks Unlimited has been in bringing back duck and geese populations. It's nothing short of phenomonal....species that were endangered are now hunted, with liberal bag limits. Some, as in the Canadian and Snow goose, have become a nusiance.

I would take a lot of the junk that goes in our landfills, and create reefs on the Calif coast...old equipment, rolls of old chainlink fence, etc. The WTC debris should have been barged out to sea for habitat. Kill two birds with one stone:reduce landfill/create habitat.

The enviros want to ban fishing,and will scare people into doing it, as they do with their close-ups of clear cutting.

If global warming means I can grow Cocos Nucifera, then bring it on....

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Hey Steve,

what kind of approach is this?? Using common sense and trying to come up with solutions!!?? That's not going to work!! :P  The doomsday people want us to believe that the only solution is to shut down civilization as we know it. I thought you knew that! :D

I remember reading somewhere that there are actually MORE land in the USA today that's covered by forest than there was 100 years ago, so somebody must be doing something right! And as far as oil is concerned; I think it'd be great when a competitive alternative to the combustion engine is available. Not because we're running out of oil anytime soon (even though I'm sure that will happen at some point in the distant future), but because we need a cleaner alternative. Come to think of it, it's ALREADY here! It's called a BICYCLE!! I know, I know, Americans don't ride bikes, and I'm not suggesting this for freeways or interstates but anyone who has been to cities like Copenhagen or Amsterdam knows how widespread the use of bikes are over there when it comes to commuting in a major metropolitan area. Get rid off gridlock and pollution and give people a chance to get in shape. What a novel concept....!

Not so sure about the WTC debris though (but that's a moot point anyway). Seems to me there was way too much toxic material for it to be a good idea to dump it in the ocean. But there's so much stuff in our landfills anyway that could be dumped offshore. Every now and then they take an old retired commercial jet, put it on a barge and dump it a few miles offshore, in order to create a new home for the fish.

Bo-Göran

Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

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(STEVE IN SO CAL @ Nov. 23 2006,09:34)

QUOTE
I heard on the radio last week that pollution may actually be SLOWING global warming. Seems it helps difuse the suns rays. Once again, depends on which side of the argument you fall...

I think it is important to state what type of pollution has the ability to slow the heating of the atmosphere instead of saying pollution in general may actually be slowing global warming.

The idea of using pollution to slow the heating of the atmosphere was presented by Paul Crutzen, a Nobel prize winner in chemistry. He thinks that by releasing sulfur into the upper-levels of the atmosphere could help reduce the warming of the lower-levels of the atmosphere. This works using the same principles by which a massive volcanic eruption can cool the Earth i.e. Pinatubo, from which he based his research on.

The majority of pollution causing the lower-levels of the atmosphere to warm are the by-product of buring hydrocarbons, not sulfur.

I suggest everyone regardless of which perspective you look from read some of his work.

Jake

Cincinnati, Ohio USA & Mindo, Ecuador

 

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Alan,

I think the yellow bellied caiman is found further south than here.  The state of Amazonas is involved with several projects of sustainable harvesting of caimans which is a step forward.  The state government has what is called the Secretary of Sustainable Development.  This department is headed by a fellow who was the person that started certification of forestry under FSC (Forest Stewardship Council) and he is very active promoting sustainable use of the states rescources.  Not that a lot of the programs don't get bogged down in the normal government workings.  But, it is a step forward.  This link is to this department, just in case you want to look, and might be able to understand a little Portuguese, Secretaria de Desenvolvimento Sustentavel, Amazonas, they actually have a lot of things going on.

dk

Don Kittelson

 

LIFE ON THE RIO NEGRO

03° 06' 07'' South 60° 01' 30'' West

Altitude 92 Meters / 308 feet above sea level

1,500 kms / 932 miles to the mouth of the Amazon River

 

Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil - A Cidade da Floresta

Where the world´s largest Tropical Rainforest embraces the Greatest Rivers in the World. .

82331.gif

 

Click here to visit Amazonas

amazonas2.jpg

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(bgl @ Nov. 25 2006,19:06)

QUOTE
Hey Steve,

what kind of approach is this?? Using common sense and trying to come up with solutions!!?? That's not going to work!! :P  The doomsday people want us to believe that the only solution is to shut down civilization as we know it. I thought you knew that! :D

I remember reading somewhere that there are actually MORE land in the USA today that's covered by forest than there was 100 years ago, so somebody must be doing something right! And as far as oil is concerned; I think it'd be great when a competitive alternative to the combustion engine is available. Not because we're running out of oil anytime soon (even though I'm sure that will happen at some point in the distant future), but because we need a cleaner alternative. Come to think of it, it's ALREADY here! It's called a BICYCLE!! I know, I know, Americans don't ride bikes, and I'm not suggesting this for freeways or interstates but anyone who has been to cities like Copenhagen or Amsterdam knows how widespread the use of bikes are over there when it comes to commuting in a major metropolitan area. Get rid off gridlock and pollution and give people a chance to get in shape. What a novel concept....!

Not so sure about the WTC debris though (but that's a moot point anyway). Seems to me there was way too much toxic material for it to be a good idea to dump it in the ocean. But there's so much stuff in our landfills anyway that could be dumped offshore. Every now and then they take an old retired commercial jet, put it on a barge and dump it a few miles offshore, in order to create a new home for the fish.

Bo-Göran

Bo knows....

If global warming means I can grow Cocos Nucifera, then bring it on....

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(amazondk @ Nov. 25 2006,14:17)

QUOTE
Corey,

Do you have any ideas on how the human population can be extremely reduced aside from nuclear war, mass famine,  radical climate change, or plagues?

dk

The most likely thing to have a substantial impact on global population, if anything, is probably a flu pandemic.  Nuclear war is always a possible threat, but if it happened I would think it would be short lived and fairly contained to a specific area.  I very much doubt famine or climate change will have any great impact on global population in the foreseeable future.  Natural disasters can have some impact on population, but again they are contained to specific areas and are unlikely to be much in terms of percentage of global population.

If the situation gets to the point where human population is totally out of control, no doubt someone will create a nasty bug in a laboratory and release it somewhere.  Mind you, there is nothing to stop someone with extreme views and sufficient resources doing that now.

I doubt anyone wants any of the things that would reduce population quickly, but then there is also very little being done to reduce it long term either.  Most countries would consider China's approach unacceptable, but even if countries only average two children per family and life expectancy continues to increase, then population will also continue to increase.

]

Corey Lucas-Divers

Dorset, UK

Ave Jul High 72F/22C (91F/33C Max)

Ave Jul Low 52F/11C (45F/7C Min)

Ave Jan High 46F/8C (59F/15C Max)

Ave Jan Low 34F/1C (21F/-6C Min)

Ave Rain 736mm pa

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(STEVE IN SO CAL @ Nov. 25 2006,11:17)

QUOTE

(palmblues @ Nov. 25 2006,02:41)

QUOTE
I heard on the radio last week that pollution may actually be SLOWING global warming. Seems it helps difuse the suns rays.

I think you missed my point...there's extreme, unsubstantiated views on both sides. The battle of the scientists/researchers, all trying to prove that their grant money wasn't wasted. Don't be so quick to forget...back in the '70's we were headed for another ice age...what happened to that disaster?

The new religion of environmentalism is fascinating to me. There is no proof that Jesus, Muhammed, etc ever existed, but millions dedicate their lives to the belief.

My "sin" is not believing that man causes global warming...how long til someone from Greenpeace saws my head off with a dull knife?

I remember as a young man seeing the pictures of clear cutting in the northwest...it was total devastation,and I was appalled, willing to join the fight to outlaw clear cutting. Many years later, when flying to Seattle, I flew over much of the northwest, and got a much different perspective. Millions upon millions of acres of pine forests...clear cutting hardly visable from 30,000 feet.

I realized I had been duped by fanatical enviros, much like PETA. Now, whenever I hear their drumbeats, I look at their issues with skeptisism.

Is there pollution? of course....I enjoy spending time in our local mountains, and always bring out more trash than I bring in. I'm old enough to remember when littering was common..now it's uncommon. I support ending pollution, I just don't think environmentalist should be given a blank check.

no i didn't miss the point of your disingenuous, at best, post about pollution buffering global warming. pollution diffuses global warming :D , spin baby spin! and i find your next post interesting in the fact that almost every other line is the rote republican party doubletalk response of doom and gloom and pestilence from the usual suspects. id laugh except for the fact that folks of your mindset took over the government years ago and are day by day inch by inch taking away everyones hard fought for freedoms in the name of fake patriotism, religious radicalism, war labeled as peace, etc etc. frightening actually. but this is well off the thread. i do have a question tho on your post- on what planet was this that there was going to be an ice age in the 1970's? ???

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(Neofolis @ Nov. 27 2006,05:41)

QUOTE
Corey,

 I very much doubt  climate change will have any great impact on global population in the foreseeable future.  Natural disasters can have some impact on population, but again they are contained to specific areas and are unlikely to be much in terms of percentage of global population.

i just want to make the point that it is now estimated that the human population on this planet was well below 10,000 people during the last ice age. my high school had 5000 peeps in it the year i graduated. so you're talking the total world population was twice as many people as were in my hs.  the human race came very close to extinction because of the climate 20000 years ago. climate and climate change are great factors and have huge impacts on human population and all life. i don't think you can ever underestimate mother nature no matter how much technology you have or don't have.

rob

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Rob,

I did a quick check on population numbers at the last ice age and came up with another number, that is according to the article below it was around 3 million.  It would seem that a population of 10,000 or less would have been on the verge of extinction.  At any rate even 3 million is a long way from where we are today.  On another note, it is interesting to observe that the population on the island of Hispanola was anywere from 1 million to 3 million people at the time of European contact, via C. Columbus. And, the population lived in relative stability as to food supply and living standards. This as per Carl Sauer in his book The Early Spanish Main.  These numbers were based on census data taken by the Spanish for use in collecting taxes in gold from the inhabitants.  The area was quickly decimated as was other areas of the Caribbena and Central America.

Ice Age Human Population Numbers

Don Kittelson

 

LIFE ON THE RIO NEGRO

03° 06' 07'' South 60° 01' 30'' West

Altitude 92 Meters / 308 feet above sea level

1,500 kms / 932 miles to the mouth of the Amazon River

 

Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil - A Cidade da Floresta

Where the world´s largest Tropical Rainforest embraces the Greatest Rivers in the World. .

82331.gif

 

Click here to visit Amazonas

amazonas2.jpg

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(palmblues @ Nov. 27 2006,03:13)

QUOTE

(STEVE IN SO CAL @ Nov. 25 2006,11:17)

QUOTE

(palmblues @ Nov. 25 2006,02:41)

QUOTE
I heard on the radio last week that pollution may actually be SLOWING global warming. Seems it helps difuse the suns rays.

I think you missed my point...there's extreme, unsubstantiated views on both sides. The battle of the scientists/researchers, all trying to prove that their grant money wasn't wasted. Don't be so quick to forget...back in the '70's we were headed for another ice age...what happened to that disaster?

The new religion of environmentalism is fascinating to me. There is no proof that Jesus, Muhammed, etc ever existed, but millions dedicate their lives to the belief.

My "sin" is not believing that man causes global warming...how long til someone from Greenpeace saws my head off with a dull knife?

I remember as a young man seeing the pictures of clear cutting in the northwest...it was total devastation,and I was appalled, willing to join the fight to outlaw clear cutting. Many years later, when flying to Seattle, I flew over much of the northwest, and got a much different perspective. Millions upon millions of acres of pine forests...clear cutting hardly visable from 30,000 feet.

I realized I had been duped by fanatical enviros, much like PETA. Now, whenever I hear their drumbeats, I look at their issues with skeptisism.

Is there pollution? of course....I enjoy spending time in our local mountains, and always bring out more trash than I bring in. I'm old enough to remember when littering was common..now it's uncommon. I support ending pollution, I just don't think environmentalist should be given a blank check.

i do have a question tho on your post- on what planet was this that there was going to be an ice age in the 1970's? ???

I do remember there being a fair amount of press in the 70's about the coming "Ice age".  Probably had some to do with me wanting to leave Colorado for someplace warm.........

Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."

"Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

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(palmblues @ Nov. 27 2006,06:13)

QUOTE

(STEVE IN SO CAL @ Nov. 25 2006,11:17)

QUOTE

(palmblues @ Nov. 25 2006,02:41)

QUOTE
I heard on the radio last week that pollution may actually be SLOWING global warming. Seems it helps difuse the suns rays.

I think you missed my point...there's extreme, unsubstantiated views on both sides. The battle of the scientists/researchers, all trying to prove that their grant money wasn't wasted. Don't be so quick to forget...back in the '70's we were headed for another ice age...what happened to that disaster?

The new religion of environmentalism is fascinating to me. There is no proof that Jesus, Muhammed, etc ever existed, but millions dedicate their lives to the belief.

My "sin" is not believing that man causes global warming...how long til someone from Greenpeace saws my head off with a dull knife?

I remember as a young man seeing the pictures of clear cutting in the northwest...it was total devastation,and I was appalled, willing to join the fight to outlaw clear cutting. Many years later, when flying to Seattle, I flew over much of the northwest, and got a much different perspective. Millions upon millions of acres of pine forests...clear cutting hardly visable from 30,000 feet.

I realized I had been duped by fanatical enviros, much like PETA. Now, whenever I hear their drumbeats, I look at their issues with skeptisism.

Is there pollution? of course....I enjoy spending time in our local mountains, and always bring out more trash than I bring in. I'm old enough to remember when littering was common..now it's uncommon. I support ending pollution, I just don't think environmentalist should be given a blank check.

no i didn't miss the point of your disingenuous, at best, post about pollution buffering global warming. pollution diffuses global warming :D , spin baby spin! and i find your next post interesting in the fact that almost every other line is the rote republican party doubletalk response of doom and gloom and pestilence from the usual suspects. id laugh except for the fact that folks of your mindset took over the government years ago and are day by day inch by inch taking away everyones hard fought for freedoms in the name of fake patriotism, religious radicalism, war labeled as peace, etc etc. frightening actually. but this is well off the thread. i do have a question tho on your post- on what planet was this that there was going to be an ice age in the 1970's? ???

Sounds like you need a cyber-hug...SQUEEEEEEEZE...there you go.. :)

If global warming means I can grow Cocos Nucifera, then bring it on....

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(Alberto @ Nov. 23 2006,19:08)

QUOTE
  Gaston,something I ´ve noticed last years is that the ipê-amarelo (Tabebuia alba) is flowering almost 1 month earlier the last years. Have you seen something similar in Argentina?

 BTW We had our driest winter in +-100years.......

     ´´Something is hapenning with the Earth!´´

Alberto. I always look forward your reports because our climates fenomena are the same.- If well you are more then 1000 kilometres away, it seems you are here in the corner of the square.- If you read our forecast for today, you can know for sure what weather will be  tomorrow in Carambei.-

The same had happened with the Tabebuias of the city (is one of the most common urban tree), now theres another fenomena: Jacarandas and Tipuanas are suffering for the drougthness and had made just a few small leaves, with this the soybean farmers are desesperate .- Now is (fortunately) rainning and i hope to see green again in my city.- Im sure the same clouds and rains are there or arriving now.-

This picture is of the 19 th november in the mountains, an unusual snowfall for this season.- Frontpage of the journal is about "temperatures of 36º and -2º in the same week"

Local newspaper

6425.JPG

Also this past week Cordoba was so hot + dry as Arizona and now is cool and cloudy as in New Zealand!

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(palmblues @ Nov. 27 2006,11:34)

QUOTE
i just want to make the point that it is now estimated that the human population on this planet was well below 10,000 people during the last ice age. my high school had 5000 peeps in it the year i graduated. so you're talking the total world population was twice as many people as were in my hs.  the human race came very close to extinction because of the climate 20000 years ago. climate and climate change are great factors and have huge impacts on human population and all life. i don't think you can ever underestimate mother nature no matter how much technology you have or don't have.

rob

Humans have survived most things in the past due to their ability to adapt.  I agree that climate change is an issue for many species of animal and particularly plant life, but the rate of change is not something that would be an issue for humans.  Look at the various climates on the globe in which humans currently live, things just won't change rapidly enough for it to be a problem.  We can farm different species and crops in different places, so food will not be an issue, assuming the population is at a sustainable level in the first place.  Air conditioning bills may increase in some areas, but heating bills will decrease in others.  The only real threat to humans is if the climatic changes give rise to more extreme weather patterns, but such things have always posed a threat to human life with or without climate change.

]

Corey Lucas-Divers

Dorset, UK

Ave Jul High 72F/22C (91F/33C Max)

Ave Jul Low 52F/11C (45F/7C Min)

Ave Jan High 46F/8C (59F/15C Max)

Ave Jan Low 34F/1C (21F/-6C Min)

Ave Rain 736mm pa

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(STEVE IN SO CAL @ Nov. 23 2006,09:34)

QUOTE
I heard on the radio last week that pollution may actually be SLOWING global warming. Seems it helps difuse the suns rays. Once again, depends on which side of the argument you fall...

Steve,

That's true, airborne particulates (SMOG, etc.) will decrease global temperatures.  So, a lot of the crap we're spewing into the atmosphere is slowing global warming.  But, most of these particulates are bad for humans, so we're trying to reduce how many we put in the atmosphere.  

In the long term, this means that once we clean up these airborne particulates we will have an even bigger mess in terms of global warming caused by the CO2 released by humans.  

Jack

Jack Sayers

East Los Angeles

growing cold tolerant palms halfway between the equator and the arctic circle...

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(amazondk @ Nov. 27 2006,07:41)

QUOTE
Rob,

I did a quick check on population numbers at the last ice age and came up with another number, that is according to the article below it was around 3 million.  It would seem that a population of 10,000 or less would have been on the verge of extinction.  At any rate even 3 million is a long way from where we are today.  On another note, it is interesting to observe that the population on the island of Hispanola was anywere from 1 million to 3 million people at the time of European contact, via C. Columbus. And, the population lived in relative stability as to food supply and living standards. This as per Carl Sauer in his book The Early Spanish Main.  These numbers were based on census data taken by the Spanish for use in collecting taxes in gold from the inhabitants.  The area was quickly decimated as was other areas of the Caribbena and Central America.

Ice Age Human Population Numbers

Don,  right you are, but the author of that article is a right wing honcho with an agenda, who thinks anyone believing in global warming being caused by humans must also believe that all of the human race must go back to caveman times in order to stop the gw problem. a bit wacky and not a reliable source if you ask me. there are also estimates of European population at 1.5 million in 1000 a.d. and if you add 1.5 mil in Asia, 1.5 mil in Africa, 1.5 mil in N&S America, that gives you a world pop of 6 mil at that time. this would make it hard to believe that there were 3 million people alive 20,000 years earlier when half the planet is covered in ice. a 10,000- pop is probably a very solid estimate given the knowledge/life styles of the time plus the fact that all game would have been severely reduced due to the climate and also the fact that the human race was totally nomadic then.

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(Neofolis @ Nov. 28 2006,03:04)

QUOTE
Humans have survived most things in the past due to their ability to adapt.  I agree that climate change is an issue for many species of animal and particularly plant life, but the rate of change is not something that would be an issue for humans.  Look at the various climates on the globe in which humans currently live, things just won't change rapidly enough for it to be a problem.  We can farm different species and crops in different places, so food will not be an issue, assuming the population is at a sustainable level in the first place.  Air conditioning bills may increase in some areas, but heating bills will decrease in others.  The only real threat to humans is if the climatic changes give rise to more extreme weather patterns, but such things have always posed a threat to human life with or without climate change.

of course, man has the ability and brains to adapt to climate change and if there were an ice age like the last one, some percentage of the race would survive. but there is also evidence of the world totally freezing over in the past. can man survive something like that? no. complete catastrophes do happen and that is my problem with the down side of believing man does not cause gw. the downside of man causing it is much more severe and possibly devastating for the humans than if its a normal anomaly the world goes thru occassionally. the thing is no one knows, so why force it?

but yes, the world will go on with us or without us for a long time.

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