"Tickling the embryo"

[John in Andalucia]

Hmm.

Hmm?

[Kostas]

Great experiment John and a very well conducted and documented one! I was sure it was the deliding that did the job and not the nicking as it would make sense being the same with cycad seeds. Personally,I prefer to let my seeds germinate and never for example crack the hard shelled seeds but with Lemurophoenix,I think I will make an exception if mine don't germinate soon

[PalmGuyWC]

To carry this process one step further: Has anyone ever excised an embryo and germinated one in a nutrient rich agar? I've seen many hybrid seeds that seem to have a perfectly developed embryo, but a poorly developed endosperm or none at all. I've often thought if those embryos were put in an agar (under sterile conditions) they might germinate. I've heard that coconut milk mixed with an agar has all the ingredients for germination and growth.

Dick

[Pivi]

John, any more move with Lemurophoenix and Corphya?

[John in Andalucia]

John, any more move with Lemurophoenix and Corphya?

I "de-lidded" 10 Corphya seeds but none of them have responded yet. The embryos of many of my Corphya seeds are sunken in the middle, which might suggest they're too old to germinate, but the embryos are white, so we'll have to wait and see. I did another 5 Lemurophoenix seeds yesterday, and here they are just a few minutes ago, with the same results as before. None of the remaining seeds have germinated, but this technique seems to have positive results so far. From what I have seen with the very first seeds that germinated without any assistance, Lemurophoenix seeds do nothing for months. Just a big, fat embryo, which turns a brown, waiting to sprout a root and a spike.

[PalmGuyWC]

John, any more move with Lemurophoenix and Corphya?

I "de-lidded" 10 Corphya seeds but none of them have responded yet. The embryos of many of my Corphya seeds are sunken in the middle, which might suggest they're too old to germinate, but the embryos are white, so we'll have to wait and see. I did another 5 Lemurophoenix seeds yesterday, and here they are just a few minutes ago, with the same results as before. None of the remaining seeds have germinated, but this technique seems to have positive results so far. From what I have seen with the very first seeds that germinated without any assistance, Lemurophoenix seeds do nothing for months. Just a big, fat embryo, which turns a brown, waiting to sprout a root and a spike.

John,

I hope you show us the progression of your Lemurophoenix seeds as germination progresses.

Dick

[Cristóbal]

i do this today when i read this with some seeds of brahea armata and basselinia pancheri, i let you know if this is to help. they have 3 months in the bags at 30 - 35 C and no germinations.

[Pivi]

Cristobal, my brahea armata seeds started to germinate after 3.5 months.

The seeds were extra fresh, from local tree.

[merrill]

Hi, Dick:

Some of your fellow Californians [and others no doubt] have germinated excised palm embryos. Typically, they are germinated on agar.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Kostas]

Do you maybe have a paper describing the procedure Merrill? I would be very interested in doing it on cycad seeds that have their nutrient providing tissue rotting badly but the embryo is untouched...Also for palm seeds with cracked/broken endosperm

Best regards,

-Konstantinos

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Reporting back... Seeds 1 and 2 are a no grow. They didn't come back to life.

Seed3 - the embryo has bulged out approx 1-2 mm from the seed and may be growing... It decided to get cold here this weekend so certainly that has some effect on growth speed for this tropical delight... More info later

[John in Andalucia]

Here's an update on what's going on in my camp..

I've now de-lidded all of my Lemurophoenix seeds. Of the 60 I started with, 12 had dead embryos but I have 47 germinators, only 3 of which look poorly. In the photo, the seeds marked with a green "X" were the original 6 that germinated naturally. One is them is way ahead as you can see, with a spike already. The seed marked "1" in red, was de-lidded about a week before I began the experiment on the first batch of 5, and now looks no different to the naturally germinated seeds.

Talking of the 3 poorly looking seeds, these were from the first 5 seeds I de-lidded, and my mistake was to leave them too long unattended in the smaller box. I noticed very tiny fungus spores around the embryos of 3 of the seeds after the second day, so since then, I move them to another box after the first 24 hours - in this case the main box with all the seeds in. I also used a hand mister with fresh water and blasted the embryos from about an inch away to ensure they weren't carrying any bacteria. This seems to have prevented any further problems with fungal attack.

The Corphya seeds are looking promising too. I have 10 in a box here, and despite their slowness, the first is definitely starting to germinate. These seeds have been lying around and doing nothing for almost a year, so I'll be very pleased if I've managed to induce germination. Photo on the right is my seedling of the only Corphya seed that germinated earlier this year.

Bill - good luck with your Pelagadoxa!

[Pivi]

Very nice John!

It's awesome how it works with Lemurophoenix! Standing for months and nothing, and when you "de-lidded" them they all started to germinate.

Wow.

I did the same thing with some of my hedyscepe seeds so i'll let you know when (and if) i see progress.

[Lowey]

Amazing, keep us updated please, we are all watching your progress

[Pivi]

I "de-lidded" 7 seeds of hedyscepe canterburyana on Thursday evening.

This picture is taken few minutes ago. Is is starting or not i have no idea.

I guess i'll see more in a few days.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Pivi

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Here's a couple shots of seed #3... I think keeping moisture high at this critical time of forced germination is probably of paramount importance.

[John in Andalucia]

Here's a couple shots of seed #3... I think keeping moisture high at this critical time of forced germination is probably of paramount importance.

Reading my mind, Bill! I've been misting my Lemurophenix seeds 2-3 times a day, thinking just the same. Important to give the embryo a reason to grow!

[Pivi]

plastic box with a loose fitting lid

John, why is this important?

[John in Andalucia]

plastic box with a loose fitting lid

John, why is this important?

Because a box that size with a sealed lid would be a pain to open and close. Pure logic, nothing else. By the way, I didn't say it was important.

[Pivi]

logic...depends. Who would know it's a pain to open

When you wrote "loose fitting lid" i thought you want to say something with that (evaporation...).

Ok.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Pivi

[John in Andalucia]

logic...depends. Who would know it's a pain to open

When you wrote "loose fitting lid" i thought you want to say something with that (evaporation...).

Ok.

Pivi, logic dictates that if I say "loose fitting lid", then it means a sealed lid is not important, not that a loose fitting lid is important. I was joking about it being a pain to open. Although realistically, one would be.

[Pivi]

Ok John, you are using reversed logic I would first think there is something into that leaving it open.

But don't get so serious, that was just a question.

Anyway, i think some of my hedys are moving. I de-lidded 7 seeds. I think other 6 might show progress in a few days.

Soil looks wet because it was misted few minutes ago.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Pivi

[John in Andalucia]

Ok John, you are using reversed logic I would first think there is something into that leaving it open.

But don't get so serious, that was just a question.

Anyway, i think some of my hedys are moving. I de-lidded 7 seeds. I think other 6 might show progress in a few days.

Soil looks wet because it was misted few minutes ago.

Pivi, since most people germinate seeds in sealed boxes... oh, never mind.

At least you're having luck with those Hedyscepe seeds, Pivi. Keep us appraised on their progress!

[John in Andalucia]

Ok John, you are using reversed logic I would first think there is something into that leaving it open.

But don't get so serious, that was just a question.

Anyway, i think some of my hedys are moving. I de-lidded 7 seeds. I think other 6 might show progress in a few days.

Soil looks wet because it was misted few minutes ago.

Pivi, since most people germinate seeds in sealed boxes... oh, never mind.

At least you're having luck with those Hedyscepe seeds, Pivi. Keep us appraised on their progress!

Like a Solid Rocket Booster, this thread is falling away to the archive ocean. To continue this voyage of discovery, click here.

[Kris]

Very useful thread dear john... Keep up the good work !

[Jeff in St Pete]

Very interesting topic. Thanks John! I'm going to try this on a few of my Lemurophoenix seeds.

[Marcel]

Tried the same method few months ago on R. Hystrix. They germinated literally after few days:

Unfortunately they rot about a month later (I spotted some very small white worms on them). I wasn't able to keep them alive. Maybe there was too much humidity, dunno...

[Pivi]

Next time clean the seeds and use sterile medium, so you probably won't have worm problems.

If the seeds were not infected.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Pivi

[BigBpalms]

I tried this technique last night with fresh Salacca Edulis - will post results soon

[BS Man about Palms]

any updtes?

[BS Man about Palms]

John?

[John in Andalucia]

John?

Bill, I bought some 40 Mauritius flexuosa from a local market about 3 weeks ago, but the embryos were shrunken and yellow on the few I opened. The pore "lid" on this seed is not flimsy. You literally have to gouge it out. The embryo is set well into the seed, and the eye is easy to locate after you peel the fruit away.

[Nigel]

John?

Bill, I bought some 40 Mauritius flexuosa from a local market about 3 weeks ago, but the embryos were shrunken and yellow on the few I opened. The pore "lid" on this seed is not flimsy. You literally have to gouge it out. The embryo is set well into the seed, and the eye is easy to locate after you peel the fruit away.

John !!! Are you in peru ? Sorry to go off thread but we would like to see some pics of your new place and hear how its going.

[John in Andalucia]

John?

Bill, I bought some 40 Mauritius flexuosa from a local market about 3 weeks ago, but the embryos were shrunken and yellow on the few I opened. The pore "lid" on this seed is not flimsy. You literally have to gouge it out. The embryo is set well into the seed, and the eye is easy to locate after you peel the fruit away.

John !!! Are you in peru ? Sorry to go off thread but we would like to see some pics of your new place and hear how its going.

Yes Nigel! I posted in Ohana Nui: "A big hello from Arequipa". There's not a lot of palm action in my life at the moment. Still, I daren't grumble.

[BS Man about Palms]

What happened with the Lemurs?

[John in Andalucia]

What happened with the Lemurs?

They all damped-off at various stages, Bill. Most succumbed before opening a first leaf. Too much competition in the greenhouse, I guess. Ultimately, just too fickle for my liking. Having said that, I've got one here with me in a baggie, obtained from a batch of seed at the start of the year. The less you have, the harder you try, right?