Soil preparation

[palmcurry]

Hi all,

Just recently bought a detached home with a yard. I have just over a hundred plants(mostly palms) and want to prepare the soil in my backyard over the winter so when I plant in spring all goes well. Any advise or tips you can offer a first-time home owner/gardener??

Thank you in advance.

[Tassie_Troy1971]

Hi all,

Just recently bought a detached home with a yard. I have just over a hundred plants(mostly palms) and want to prepare the soil in my backyard over the winter so when I plant in spring all goes well. Any advise or tips you can offer a first-time home owner/gardener??

Thank you in advance.

G,day Vince

congratulations on your new home in sunny San Clemente. Early last year i sold my old house (and established palm garden ) and bought a new house where i started from scratch with lots of potted palms and a few bigger ones (kentia ,chamerops,trachy ) that i dug from the old house.

To me soil prep is everthing and believe me it definately pays off. I have deep sandy loam soil . In all my planting beds i dug up the soil 30 inches deep and added lots of pulverised cow/steer manure all my palms seem to love this stuff i then added chopped up food and veggie peelings and scraps even left over fried rice ,this all rots down over 3 - 4 months and enriches the soil . I also mixed in lawn clippings a few fine woodchips and a dash of some some blood meal and some water storage crystals . Water these areas once a week in dry weather so they rot quicker .

BTW don't put all this manure and stuff in just before you plant as it possibly might be too strong and burn the palms 3-4 min period to rot down and turn to humus is required . See if you can get some green waste from your local supermarket fruit and veg dept .

I still have about 20 new palms to plant this Sept (our spring) including Rhopalostylis and parajubaea Tvt .

I also built wood frames with 50% shadecloth so my lord Howe Island palms Howea ,hedyscepe can adjust slowly to sun .

Here are my palms 6 months after planting out ~ http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?sh...c=17309&hl=

Show us some of your before and after pics Vince when everything is done they are a big hit here !

cheers Troy

[Bags]

Vince,

Like Troy said soil prep is far an away the most important thing you can do for your garden. But what to do depends on type of soil you have.

If you have loamy to sandy soil with good drainage put a six inch layer of compost or composted manuer and rototill into the top 12'' of soil. After that keep a good layer of mulch on top of it and your plants will love it. Many cities have green waste recycling facilities that you can get compost and mulch for cheap or even free. Poultry and dairy farms compost their manuers and will often times give it to you.

If you have heavy clay or hard pan like I have at my house adding amendments will help, but only so much. If this is the case I would recomend bringing in soil and mounding everything or building raised beds. This will make planting fun instead of a choir and your plants will love it. Don't forget the before and after pics. Aaron

[Kris]

Dear Vince

Wish you all the best for the purschase of the house..

Our property is rock solid clayee and after monsoon rains water used to stagnate for weeks in it so we had to dig deep in specific areas for fast draining of excess water and its paying dividents,since water now drains in just couple of hours after the heavy rain stops !

Here is a link to that work..

How Far Can you Go..

Love,

Kris

[palmcurry]

Troy,

Thanks for the help and all the details. Seeing how you did things helps me allot. I always used all my clippings but never thought of getting more greens from the grocery disposal or the like. I also like H. forsteriana very much...just wish they grew more faster. Will post before and after pics. for sure when all is said and done. Dig your back yard BTW!

[palmcurry]

Aaron,

Yeah I'm like you, the soil is a bit on the clay side. Won't know for sure 'till I dig a 3' hole in the ground and fill it with water and see what happens. We bought a place where San Juan meets Dana point...1.3 miles from the ocean. It is on the creek slope but I expect he soil to be like where we live in SC - clay-ish. Thank you for the pointers.

Vince

[palmcurry]

Kris,

My goodness what a deep hole you dug there! I grew up in south Florida where it would rain every day in the summer at 4:pm and can appreciate what you all go through over there in that part of the world during the monsoon season. If my property turns out to be strong clay, I will try something like you did.

BTW I am stoked for you with your new family member!

Take care,

Vince

[Kris]

Thanks

[Tassie_Troy1971]

Troy,

Thanks for the help and all the details. Seeing how you did things helps me allot. I always used all my clippings but never thought of getting more greens from the grocery disposal or the like. I also like H. forsteriana very much...just wish they grew more faster. Will post before and after pics. for sure when all is said and done. Dig your back yard BTW!

No Probs

Yes Howea forsteriana is a nice one they should do really well and grow all year in your mild coastal climate . Try ringing some plant hire companies they may have larger kentias that have outgrown their indoor office life for sale on the cheap . My large kentia is just about to trunk and was a 1 gallon baby 10 yrs ago and i am at lattitude 42 deg same as New Hampshire !!

Have lots of rhopalostylis seed Chatham Is in that Pogo bob (what an awesome collection of NZ and lord Howe Is palms he has ) sent over plus the syagrus abreojos .

Do you have a Hedyscepe in your current collection ?

cheers Troy

[palmcurry]

Troy,

Thanks for the help and all the details. Seeing how you did things helps me allot. I always used all my clippings but never thought of getting more greens from the grocery disposal or the like. I also like H. forsteriana very much...just wish they grew more faster. Will post before and after pics. for sure when all is said and done. Dig your back yard BTW!

No Probs

Yes Howea forsteriana is a nice one they should do really well and grow all year in your mild coastal climate . Try ringing some plant hire companies they may have larger kentias that have outgrown their indoor office life for sale on the cheap . My large kentia is just about to trunk and was a 1 gallon baby 10 yrs ago and i am at lattitude 42 deg same as New Hampshire !!

Have lots of rhopalostylis seed Chatham Is in that Pogo bob (what an awesome collection of NZ and lord Howe Is palms he has ) sent over plus the syagrus abreojos .

Do you have a Hedyscepe in your current collection ?

No Hedyscepe's yet but good chance I'll get one or two in the future. Danny boy has some nice 15 gals. at the JDA nursery near by. Yeah, pogobob's garden rocks the house for sure!! It is a lesson in patience for me 'cause he started it 20+ yeas ago.

Have a good one.

cheers Troy

[Cycadcenter]

Here are a few shots of preparing to plant some palms and cycads at the farm at Childers in Queensland. The Dingo Digger with the chain digger digs a hole abt 2' x 2' x 2' and the good thing is that it doesn't leave glazed sides as an auger does.

The soil here is a red loam and is about 15 feet deep, no rocks, free draining.

The Dingo dug over 200 holes in less than three hours

Here is our source of mulch........ 4 x 4 x 8 bales of sugar cane mulch which weigh over two tons each

Bruce

[palmcurry]

Bruce,

That is large scale work! Do you fill in the holes with anything special?? Nice machinery you have there. The red soil looks amazing like Kauai. I go to Fallbrook regularly and will have to stop by your center. Thats a big commute from AU to CA!!!!

[MattyB]

Vince,

For clay soil, the easiest and cheapest thing to do is to spread gypsum around and bring in lots of compost and mulch. The next easiest is to rototill the soil, add Gypsum, and add compost/mulch. The harder, more expensive option is to build raised beds and bring in soil but you should still add gypsum and compost/mulch.

[BS Man about Palms]

Yes. Read what Matty said a couple of times.

Then do it.

It works fine.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Bruce,

Cool machine! can you show close ups of it and how it works?

Jerry

[Kris]

In my observation what works for california area want work for florida or any wet tropical zones(world wide)...

Since california is more like a desert zone,less of ground water,less of rainfall..So clayee soil is some what a boon.since you water your plants less regularly.

Here in south india,with all the mulch on the clayee soil,add to the already mess,what we get is a slippery floor.And all the foot ware gets really sticky.And walking on that soil is virtual nightmare.Since we get here rains often & when it rains its very heavy like floods.

So what works for one member living in one region will not work for a guy living in another state or continent.Since there are lots of variation even in clay soil.And all dicots love & flourish on clay soil.

the palms that grow fine on clayee soil are royals,coconuts,fishtail,foxtail,oil palm,phoenix palms,areca palms,beetlenut,livistonias,travellors palm,bismarkia,copernicas_Alba,washy robustas,Coryphas.

Love,

Kris

[MattyB]

Good observation Kris. Clay can actually be helpful here where it's dry. It helps hold moisture and nutrients. I've brought in heavy clay soil in some areas of my garden just to help the plants grow in the rock better. The roots can get into the rock but it dosen't hold moisture for more than a day or two in the heat. How 'bout we trade. I'll give you some rocky soil and I'll take some of your clayee. How much cost to ship rocks to India?

[Kris]

One more useful link ?

http://www.junglemusic.net/articles/HowToPlantAPalm.html

Love,

Kris

[palmcurry]

Hi guys,

Just got back on the net after a month of moving. I've started composting and taking fruit pulp from a local juice bar and the batches are HOT!!!. Will start researching the 'gypsum' Matt mentioned, never heard of it but am going to try just about everything. Don't know what raised beds are, tho.

Want to rent a rototiller but don't have a truck(yet) but thats an easy fix. It looks like the soil is going to be strong in clay given this area but now I know what to do about it.

Thanks Kris for the list of clay friendly palms. Wish I could get those Areca's growing here...very marginal. I love Pinangas and have many young coronata's that are going in the ground. Plan on sinking some P.elmeri's too...can't wait

Will post pictures in time. Thanks everyone.

[Tassie_Troy1971]

Hi guys,

Just got back on the net after a month of moving. I've started composting and taking fruit pulp from a local juice bar and the batches are HOT!!!. Will start researching the 'gypsum' Matt mentioned, never heard of it but am going to try just about everything. Don't know what raised beds are, tho.

Want to rent a rototiller but don't have a truck(yet) but thats an easy fix. It looks like the soil is going to be strong in clay given this area but now I know what to do about it.

Thanks Kris for the list of clay friendly palms. Wish I could get those Areca's growing here...very marginal. I love Pinangas and have many young coronata's that are going in the ground. Plan on sinking some P.elmeri's too...can't wait

Will post pictures in time. Thanks everyone.

Hi Vince

good to hear everything is coming along well . The fruit pulp sound like a good start ,did you find a green grocers waste for extra stuff to compost. The cow manure or horse manure (any stables in the area you could bag for free from ) is excellent .

If you use blocks or large stones like i have the raised garden bed will help drainage heaps very important for Hedyscepe ( did you see Pogobobs 15 gallon beauties for sale) . Gypsum will break down hte clay but takes a few years and must be dug into the soil

http://www.yates.com.au/products/fertilisi...m-clay-breaker/

Cheers Troy

[joe_OC]

I've been following the advice of my compost guy and it seems to be working. Here is a quote from him about preparing soil:

"Ideally, you should mimic how nature builds healthy soils. The last few times I was at the rental yard, I didn't see nature renting a rototiller. Instead she (is that ok to say?) places organic matter on the surface, and uses a host of microorganisms to work it into the soils. Rototilling actually is more disruptive than good, because each strata of your soil has specific microorganisms that work at that level."

All I can say is that I can hold the hose on any spot in my planters now for a long while, and the water will get absorbed in that spot instead of flooding the area. I pay around $10 per cubic yard for my compost (5 cubic yards each time) and put down a layer around six inches thick. This gets broken down by the worms and other microorganisms to the point that I have to do this 2-3 times a year. It's well worth it for the palms and neighboring plants.

Joe

[palmcurry]

Hi guys,

Just got back on the net after a month of moving. I've started composting and taking fruit pulp from a local juice bar and the batches are HOT!!!. Will start researching the 'gypsum' Matt mentioned, never heard of it but am going to try just about everything. Don't know what raised beds are, tho.

Want to rent a rototiller but don't have a truck(yet) but thats an easy fix. It looks like the soil is going to be strong in clay given this area but now I know what to do about it.

Thanks Kris for the list of clay friendly palms. Wish I could get those Areca's growing here...very marginal. I love Pinangas and have many young coronata's that are going in the ground. Plan on sinking some P.elmeri's too...can't wait

Will post pictures in time. Thanks everyone.

Hi Vince

good to hear everything is coming along well . The fruit pulp sound like a good start ,did you find a green grocers waste for extra stuff to compost. The cow manure or horse manure (any stables in the area you could bag for free from ) is excellent .

If you use blocks or large stones like i have the raised garden bed will help drainage heaps very important for Hedyscepe ( did you see Pogobobs 15 gallon beauties for sale) . Gypsum will break down hte clay but takes a few years and must be dug into the soil

http://www.yates.com.au/products/fertilisi...m-clay-breaker/

Cheers Troy

Thanks Troy for the gypsum ad and all former advise. Tried getting greens and veggie waiste from many sources around here and almost everyone won't give it up. This is Southern California and they are all afraid of getting sued. But I did find one cool guy who leaves aside fruite pulp for me, but even that is done in a secretive manner. Have a couple of 32 gal trash cans started for compost including all my clippings ect and will go up to 6 cans by the end of winter.

Yes I've seen Pogobob's H.canterburyana offering, but I hate to say there is a much cheaper deal close by. Now that I know what raised beds are I am going to have them all around my back yard.

Talk soon, Vince.

[palmcurry]

I've been following the advice of my compost guy and it seems to be working. Here is a quote from him about preparing soil:

"Ideally, you should mimic how nature builds healthy soils. The last few times I was at the rental yard, I didn't see nature renting a rototiller. Instead she (is that ok to say?) places organic matter on the surface, and uses a host of microorganisms to work it into the soils. Rototilling actually is more disruptive than good, because each strata of your soil has specific microorganisms that work at that level."

All I can say is that I can hold the hose on any spot in my planters now for a long while, and the water will get absorbed in that spot instead of flooding the area. I pay around $10 per cubic yard for my compost (5 cubic yards each time) and put down a layer around six inches thick. This gets broken down by the worms and other microorganisms to the point that I have to do this 2-3 times a year. It's well worth it for the palms and neighboring plants.

Joe

Joe,

Thanks for the informative qoute. I agree nature dose it right and her example is the correct one. I just wish I was'nt so impatient. The soil on my property looks pretty bleached and void of nutrient so I am going to lay down manure with the compost. If I use a rototiller, it will only be a onetime action and let that be nature's starting point for a new micro-ecosystem.

Next posting I'll add pic.s of my property.

[palmcurry]

'Bout time for an update.

I have followed a little of everyones advise and been working hard at preping my backyard the last few months. Here is M=my yard before I bought it in July:

In comes my jungle! I took out the shed, the under lying bricks and sand, the walking stones next to the house and moved the bamboo to the side. Also took out all the grass and put in my cheapy greenhouse.

[palmcurry]

My property is at the bottom of a large hilll, near the bottom of San Juan creek basin(cold!) and the soil is total hardpan...like ALL clay.

Nice clay chunk.

SO my plan is:

1.Turn over the entire backyard 12" surface with a pick.

2.Add gypsum generously.

3.Cover with compost and mulchy soil.

4.Put in raised beds filled with more compost.

Action shot taken by the wifey. From me to the fence is all picked up. I broke up all the clay chunks with the shovel untill it was fine then I covered the area with gypsum, even using the 16" spade around the perimeter where the raised beds will be to get some gypsum down deep. This is about a quarter of my yard. All the rain this week is really helping this part of the soil prep. process so I'm going to hire an extra hand this weekend to make progress.

[palmcurry]

Thats all I have in terms of progress made.

Here are some shots of my yard and plants waiting for their time in spring. This is the other direction from the last picture above - the remaining area to pick.

I'm a Dypsis fan, especialy baronii. To the left is Archontophoenix purpurea and Chamedoreas tepejilote and alternans.

Here is the same shot a few months before I purchased the place. Kinda small, I know.

[palmcurry]

Here is the sunroom corner. This addition was made by the previous owner without a permit. It is constructed mostly of fiberglass and is the best & worst part of the house. Best because it over looks the whole backyard/garden and also FHA won't loan this house. Thus, no one bought the place untill my wife and I came along and got it with a conventional loan - very lucky! And worst because in Winter it makes the house freezing cold and in Summer it's super hot!!

[palmcurry]

Here is a 15 gal. Pinanga elmeri recently purchased at JDA nursery. After living here for the first part of winter I am having second thoughts that this and my other Pinangas will thrive here in the cold season.

[palmcurry]

Here are 2 of my 5 gal Pinanga coronatas. These have grown really well for me in my greenhouse. They were ony small 1 gals last year and have really surprised me.

[palmcurry]

Here is a nice bromilead recently picked up.

Here is a Dypsis mayotte I posted in another topic. 15 gal and growing well.

Thats all I have for now. Will post more pictures of my progress in a couple of months. Merry Christmas!

[joe_OC]

Way to go, Vince! Your hard work will result in happy palms. Are you planning to put palms in the ground now?

[palmcurry]

Joe,

Thanks. I'll probably plant in the front of the house but for the backyard I definitely want to wait till the raised beds and compost are laid in. Plus it hits the upper 30s to lower 40s F each night here. Don't think any of my plants will grow much no matter what I do with them

[Tassie_Troy1971]

Good stuff Vince - Bloody hard work on the pick ! but worth it breaking up all that clay will enable the gypsum to work well . Looks like you have some nice palms waiting to go in . Chameadorea tepijilote goes well down here outside in the shade . Lovely blue chamerops too.

Are you getting that cold snap down your way ?

[Tassie_Troy1971]

Whoa Vince ! " I took out the shed" there is a saying down here that every Bloke needs a shed !

http://www.hillssheds.com.au/club_shed.html

only joking of course , there are allowances for more palm planting space !

[palmcurry]

Troy,

Yes, definitely feeling the cold snap here. It's been down to 34 already and it's not even January. This part of SoCal is generaly zone 10a but My house is at the botooom of a wide creek basin and I am starting to feel like I live in a zone 9b microclimate But I rather live here than rent anywhere!

Yeah I definitely got rid of the shed!! Got a nice 2 car garage to put my tools in!

[ariscott]

Whoa Vince ! " I took out the shed" there is a saying down here that every Bloke needs a shed !

http://www.hillssheds.com.au/club_shed.html

only joking of course , there are allowances for more palm planting space !

I think it is an Aussie thing... Troy. There is no way, Scott would give up his shed. He has 7x7 shed with 3.5m leanto and he is already talking about extending it to be twice as big...

Vince,

Good job... it definitely pays to improve your soil before planting. I am just lucky to get an ex market garden property, so I actually have some top soil. Although since I have mulch it heavily for the last 2-3 years, I can see massive improvements in the soil. Once the soil improves, the fun bits can begin...

Regards, Ari

[MattyB]

Thanks for keeping us updated on the progress Vince. That soil does look pretty clayee, as Kris would say. The raised beds are gonna help a lot.

[BS Man about Palms]

Cool stuff Vince!

[Kris]

Thanks for keeping us updated on the progress Vince. That soil does look pretty clayee, as Kris would say. The raised beds are gonna help a lot.

Well Said Dear Matty !

And dear vince

Iam very impressed with your house,your garden,plants collection and last but not the least...your ability to toil hard & sweat it out kind of attitude_Thumbs up to that !

And one thing that i like to add here that our friend Bs man(Bill) constantly kept reminding me that i must go in for raised bed planting..Since the place where i live the region is very hot,wet & humid with heavy coastal influence and the entire streatch of land here is flattened plain.So when it rains the water stagnates from 3 days to a week.

So here are few visuals for you on raised bed creating for desert kind of plants & palms and it seems to work !

This is a washy filifera growing on a clayee soil bed with no soil ammendments,but the entire cement ring has no soil but crushed granite chips(construction grade).Some call these as blue metal chips ! But it works magic..less of work & clayee removal.And i have not added any gypsum or coarse grade river sand either.

This is a still of Brahea Armada,also grown in the same lines as above,it has also survived our tropical monsoon rains..If this works for us.May be this would become a standard to grow all desert plants in like manner.

Wish you all the best & happy gardening...Keep up the good work !

lots of love,

kris

[palmcurry]

Thanks Kris and everybody. Appresh the support and pics