Cycad cones and flushes

[Tracy]

Encephalartos inopinus pushing it's first cone.  While I suspect this is female, I'm waiting for it to come out further to see if it elongates like a male or ends up more barrel shaped like a female.  Color looks right for how a female would be described in Loran Whitelock's book.  The main caudex which is coning has been pushed up by many pups emerging from the base over the years.  I could see the first pup when it was still in a citrus pot with about a 2" caudex on the main pup and it just didn't seem to want to stop pupping.  Extracting a pup would be difficult because of how they are all  so interconnected.

[Tracy]

I caught my little guardian looking out for bugs on the Encephalartos inopinus the other day.  The Encephalartos lehmannii with two caudices coning.  It also ha a couple of small pups flushing at the same time. 

[GeneAZ]

On 8/5/2023 at 8:03 PM, Tom in Tucson said:

Can you tell me how the variety differs from the standard species?

Hi 108˚, Lo 75˚

I think of Dioon sonorense ssp. Bacanora -- that's just the way I refer to it -- as, overall. being the same as sonorense but having the blue leaves .  Some Bacanora individuals spiral a lot at the apex too.  Not all the plants around the town of Bacanora are the blue type.  Some are just nice sonorense.

So far, the vovidesii plants I've seen aren't showing perpendicular leaflets like the better specimens of Bacanora.  Vovidesii leaflets angle upward toward the tip, while Bacanora plants have most of the leaflets at right angles to the rachis in the lower half to 2/3 of the leaf. 

As you probably, know, every population of  cycads has some variation, though.

 

[Tom in Tucson]

30 minutes ago, GeneAZ said:

I think of Dioon sonorense ssp. Bacanora -- that's just the way I refer to it -- as, overall. being the same as sonorense but having the blue leaves .  Some Bacanora individuals spiral a lot at the apex too.  Not all the plants around the town of Bacanora are the blue type.  Some are just nice sonorense.

So far, the vovidesii plants I've seen aren't showing perpendicular leaflets like the better specimens of Bacanora.  Vovidesii leaflets angle upward toward the tip, while Bacanora plants have most of the leaflets at right angles to the rachis in the lower half to 2/3 of the leaf. 

As you probably, know, every population of  cycads has some variation, though.

 

So I take it you like the Dioon sonorense fa. 'Bacanora' better than Dioon vovidesii ?

Hi 105˚, Lo 79˚

[GeneAZ]

18 hours ago, Tom in Tucson said:

So I take it you like the Dioon sonorense fa. 'Bacanora' better than Dioon vovidesii ?

Hi 105˚, Lo 79˚

As a term for this variation, I like D. sonorense ssp. Bacanora.  This is not botanically correct, however.  It's just for my personal mental organization.

D. vovidesii as a species is a different appearing plant to me, so that name works for that plant.

[Tom in Tucson]

4 hours ago, GeneAZ said:

As a term for this variation, I like D. sonorense ssp. Bacanora.  This is not botanically correct, however.  It's just for my personal mental organization.

D. vovidesii as a species is a different appearing plant to me, so that name works for that plant.

So you have no preference between the 2?

Hi 106˚, Lo 81˚ - Tucson airport 99˚ - 53 straight 100˚ days ended

[GeneAZ]

18 hours ago, Tom in Tucson said:

So you have no preference between the 2?

Hi 106˚, Lo 81˚ - Tucson airport 99˚ - 53 straight 100˚ days ended

Probably just that Bacanora = blue form.  Personally, I think Bacanora is prettier and has more character.

[Tracy]

Another Encephalartos pushing its first cone this year.  Encephalartos arenarius. 

[Tracy]

I'm still on the fence on these two first time cones on the Encephalartos lehmanii.  I want to believe they will turn out to be females, but at the same time I can still see these just elongating and being males.  I haven't found a progression sequence of Encephalartos lehmannii cones pushing to see how the male and female develop into the finished fully developed cones.

[freakypalmguy]

@Tracy @GeneAZ update on my trispinosus with the curved/distorted flushes from a few years back. I stopped fertilizing/peeing on it and have given it a yearly dose of chelated iron and here is the result.  This years flush was normal and beautiful. Thank you both again for your advice.
 

(The first two pictures are from two years ago when it was having the problem every year and the second two are from today)

 

[Tracy]

Encephalartos lebomboensis pushing out 3 cones from the fuzzy top of it's caudex.  Those young female cones look a bit like three eggs in a nest.

[Gallop]

Color in the garden

[Tom in Tucson]

12 hours ago, Gallop said:

Color in the garden

Are these species or hybrids of Ceratozamia? 

Hi 108˚, Lo 83˚

[Tracy]

I got the flushing Dioon below as Dioon rzedowskii as a 2 leaf seedling and trusted the id.  As it got bigger I always questioned the id, but am now starting to warm to the potential that the id was correct.  When younger it did have some small teeth, which have pretty much gone away over the years.  The leaflets still seem a little narrow though, which leads me to struggle with the decision.  I don't recall it having coned, but it could have in that I don't live in that I don't always get to this part of the yard when the house is occupied by tenants.

Some color too on Ceratozamias in the garden that are flushing, one of which has a nice big cone.

[Billeb]

Happy to update that my Cycas Debaoensis has officially pushed a leaf. Took awhile but looks healthy. 
 

Just got back from a work trip so more to come. 

-dale

 

 

[Pete]

Nat x horr George Sparkman collection

[Tracy]

Some of the late summer flushes happening now. 

[BigBilly]

So I have a few questions This is the first time I've gotten a Sago to flush,  Our first freeze date is October 22, Will it have hardened off by then, Will a frost damage it, Also should i cut off the damaged fronds now or whenever it's fully flushed ?  

Edited September 1 by BigBilly

[Tracy]

2 hours ago, BigBilly said:

So I have a few questions This is the first time I've gotten a Sago to flush,  Our first freeze date is October 22, Will it have hardened off by then, Will a frost damage it, Also should i cut off the damaged fronds now or whenever it's fully flushed ?  

The speed to flush is dependent on the temperatures you experience between now and your first freeze.  The warmer it is, generally speaking it will go faster.  Cold nights and lower daytime temps are associated with slower progression of the flush typically.  On the freeze damage questions, I will defer to people closer to you in both geography and temperatures.  If you want to trim off the dead portion of the older leaflets you can or you can just leave them if they don't bother you.   The green portions of the leaves and leaflets are still helping the plant absorb energy from the sun, so I would leave the green portions of the older leaves intact.  You want to take in as much energy as possible right now on a new planting.

[Merlyn]

@BigBilly I agree with Tracy, I'd generally leave the old ones on, unless there's a compelling cosmetic (or clearance) reason to chop them.  As far as flush speed goes, a big Revoluta here in the swamplands of Floriduh takes about 2 weeks to flush and harden off.  Even if it's cooler there in NC, I would expect it to be completely done before the end of the month.  Just a guess, of course. 

[BigBilly]

1 hour ago, Tracy said:

The speed to flush is dependent on the temperatures you experience between now and your first freeze.  The warmer it is, generally speaking it will go faster.  Cold nights and lower daytime temps are associated with slower progression of the flush typically.  On the freeze damage questions, I will defer to people closer to you in both geography and temperatures.  If you want to trim off the dead portion of the older leaflets you can or you can just leave them if they don't bother you.   The green portions of the leaves and leaflets are still helping the plant absorb energy from the sun, so I would leave the green portions of the older leaves intact.  You want to take in as much energy as possible right now on a new planting.

 

33 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@BigBilly I agree with Tracy, I'd generally leave the old ones on, unless there's a compelling cosmetic (or clearance) reason to chop them.  As far as flush speed goes, a big Revoluta here in the swamplands of Floriduh takes about 2 weeks to flush and harden off.  Even if it's cooler there in NC, I would expect it to be completely done before the end of the month.  Just a guess, of course. 

It's gonna be up in the 90s 

[Merlyn]

@BigBilly with highs in the 90s and lows in the upper 60s it should finish up fairly quick.  It may be tough to keep the fronds looking good through the winter, but my guess is that won't be due to it being a new-ish flush. 

[BigBilly]

19 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@BigBilly with highs in the 90s and lows in the upper 60s it should finish up fairly quick.  It may be tough to keep the fronds looking good through the winter, but my guess is that won't be due to it being a new-ish flush. 

Yeah, they got cold damaged last year, it's going be a struggle keeping it alive in general lol, 

[Tracy]

Have had this Encephalartos transvenosus for about 15 or 16 years, acquired as a 3 inch caudex.  First cones emerged out of the wool.  Still a bit early to proclaim if they are boys or girls.   

[Gallop]

On 8/5/2023 at 3:42 PM, Jubaea_James760 said:

Nice! I have a Sonorense var bacanora which I think is the same. I've been trying to sell it but I think I might just plant it out. What's been your experience with its cold tolerance?

The vovidesii your asking about is from the mazatan locality. It has seen temperatures to 20°f with consecutive nights below freezing. We had 3-4 days in a row with below freezing temperatures this past winter. The plant is in an open area in the garden with no protection. It had no damage. There were other Dioon in the garden near by that toasted in the freeze event. Would love to see pictures of your sonorense var bacanora.

[Jubaea_James760]

Very promising, thank you.  

I'll get a recent photo of it this weekend 👍

[Tom in Tucson]

17 hours ago, Gallop said:

The vovidesii your asking about is from the mazatan locality. It has seen temperatures to 20°f with consecutive nights below freezing. We had 3-4 days in a row with below freezing temperatures this past winter. The plant is in an open area in the garden with no protection. It had no damage. There were other Dioon in the garden near by that toasted in the freeze event. Would love to see pictures of your sonorense var bacanora.

I was lucky to find 2 Dioon vovidesii recently. My primary motive for buying them is because of their likely tolerance to high temperatures. As you stated they grow the furthest north of any species in the genus (Mazatlán, Sonora - around 1784'), but your report of the cold resistance of 20° is like "icing on the cake"!

I will post some images of them soon, and see how they compare to the one @Jubaea_James760 is going to post.

Hi 102˚, Lo 72˚

[Gallop]

6 hours ago, Tom in Tucson said:

I was lucky to find 2 Dioon vovidesii recently. My primary motive for buying them is because of their likely tolerance to high temperatures. As you stated they grow the furthest north of any species in the genus (Mazatlán, Sonora - around 1784'), but your report of the cold resistance of 20° is like "icing on the cake"!

I will post some images of them soon, and see how they compare to the one @Jubaea_James760 is going to post.

Hi 102˚, Lo 72˚

A couple of recent pictures of my D vovidesii. One of the best Dioon to grow for those who experience freezing temperatures in winter. Dioon oaxacensis and plantifolium growing near had their leaves completely toasted this past winter. I believe the main stem died on the oaxacensis but pups have came up. The plantifolium just started flushing, so it pulled through, just took all season for it to recover. 

 

 

Edited September 4 by Gallop

[ellidro]

Encephalartos lehmanii cone. I believe it to be a male but can anyone here confirm?

 

[Merlyn]

And now it's clear that I have either the dumbest or most suicidal Encephalartos Ferox around...sigh.  This one coned last August when it had 2 ranks of somewhat sunburnt fronds.  I hoped for a good flush this spring, and the center kept on moving around like it was thinking about a 20 leaf monster flush.  Nope.  After losing half the fronds to 20+ hours under freezing at Christmas 2022, this beastie decided to push 3 more cones!

[Tracy]

4 hours ago, ellidro said:

Encephalartos lehmanii cone. I believe it to be a male but can anyone here confirm?

Hi Nick,

Yes, you are correct, that is a male cone.  Mine turned out to be female, coning the first time this year as well.  Photo below from Friday.  The one on the right that is a little further along is getting the wide barrel look below that pointed top quarter.  Your male cone will continue to elongate.  Looking forward to seeing your garden soon on the Palm Society tour.

[ellidro]

31 minutes ago, Tracy said:

Hi Nick,

Yes, you are correct, that is a male cone.  Mine turned out to be female, coning the first time this year as well.  Photo below from Friday.  The one on the right that is a little further along is getting the wide barrel look below that pointed top quarter.  Your male cone will continue to elongate.  Looking forward to seeing your garden soon on the Palm Society tour.

Thanks Tracy! Do you need pollen for you female cones?

[Tracy]

11 minutes ago, ellidro said:

Thanks Tracy! Do you need pollen for you female cones?

PM sent....

[Tom in Tucson]

17 hours ago, Gallop said:

A couple of recent pictures of my D vovidesii. One of the best Dioon to grow for those who experience freezing temperatures in winter. Dioon oaxacensis and plantifolium growing near had their leaves completely toasted this past winter. I believe the main stem died on the oaxacensis but pups have came up. The plantifolium just started flushing, so it pulled through, just took all season for it to recover. 

 

 

These images are by far the best looking, and of the highest quality of any I've seen while trying to find out what they eventually can look like in cultivation. Bravo!

The only images of anything besides the ones like the seedlings I just bought, are from shots of them in their native habitat. Those are OK, but clearly don't do the species justice. I said that I'd post images of my new plants, but I think that images of my tiny seedlings will certainly be anticlimactic after viewing yours. 

Hi 102˚, Lo 70˚

[Manalto]

After a couple of years languishing in this spot with one frond per year that then got knocked back by winter, I'm happy to report that my hybrid is now producing three!

I got it from North Texas Cold Hardy, on Joseph's recommendation but don't remember the parent plants' names. I think one may be Cycas taitungensis, but not sure. If anyone recognizes it, or would like to take a guess at the cross, please let me know what you think it is.

[Manalto]

1 hour ago, Manalto said:

After a couple of years languishing in this spot with one frond per year that then got knocked back by winter, I'm happy to report that my hybrid is now producing three!

I got it from North Texas Cold Hardy, on Joseph's recommendation but don't remember the parent plants' names. I think one may be Cycas taitungensis, but not sure. If anyone recognizes it, or would like to take a guess at the cross, please let me know what you think it is.

With Cycas panzhihuaensis, maybe?

[Tracy]

26 minutes ago, Manalto said:

With Cycas panzhihuaensis, maybe?

It looks like  you have bifid leaflets, so you would need something with at least bifid leaflets in the mix to get that look.  Cycas taitengensus has more rigid leaflets like revoluta, so given the softer more pendant leaflets would point in a different direction than taitengensus x panzhihuanensis even if it isn't bifid.  Either one could be part of the mix, but unlikely that these two are the male and female parents.

[Merlyn]

@Manalto I'd hazard a guess of Panz x Deb, given the slightly bluish tint and bifid leaves.  Of course the color might just be from the photo.  They start out a bit blue-green and mature to a medium to dark green.  Here's my largest Panz x Deb, purchased from TCHP around July 2020.  The regular Revoluta is on the bottom right for a color reference:

[Manalto]

32 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@Manalto I'd hazard a guess of Panz x Deb, given the slightly bluish tint and bifid leaves. 

 

That looks like it. I think you're right, according to my murky memory of a phone conversation three years ago.

Ours are the same age, but what a difference a zone makes. What I do remember clearly is that Joseph seemed particularly fond of this hybrid; he thought its size would make an impressive statement. 

Leaves:

[Merlyn]

@Manalto this is a leaf detail on mine, with the flush not quite hardened off.  It's also in full sun so it is slightly lighter green than the one I have in a part-shade area.  In fairness, Rev x Deb and Tait x Deb look pretty much the same.  If you put pictures of them side by side I'm not sure if I could tell the difference.