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Nasty winter storm over San Diego


STEVE IN SO CAL

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(keiththibodeaux @ Mar. 17 2008,10:03)

QUOTE
Funny how perceptions are sometimes not inline with reality.  I always felt So Cal was a much warmer place than Louisiana.   I have been there many times, but almost always in summer, so never realized that your winters were on average so cold.  Not yankee land cold, but as cold as ours for the most part.  We beat you on the extremes, but you stay cooler longer.  I always thought San Diego was like Miami.  

Before palm interest got me reading your weather threads, my perceptions were not inline with reality.

Keith

Certainly at 32-34N latitude So Cal is much further north than Louisiana yet has a warmer winter than Louisiana, north Florida & much of Texas.

For example, the cold temperatures being reported are primarily all from San Diego county.  The minimums yesterday morning and today were above 50f in many areas of Los Angeles due to the wind.  It blew strong all night & kept the minimum to 54f at my place this morning.

March isn’t a particularly warm month in California [mostly low 70’s] due to the still chilly Pacific Ocean temps [near 60f].  The Atlantic along the Gulf Coast is much warmer all year long.  These oceans greatly influence the climate.  Another influence is mountains that generally block cold air from entering California.  The opposite is true east of the Rockies where there aren’t mountains or the mountain ranges are relatively low compared to the West and allow artic air to sweep down to the Gulf of Mexico.

This was a cold storm system that was tracked for over a week yet most areas [esp metro regions] observed minimums above 40f & day temps in the 60’s & today will be in the 70’s – hardly a major cold outbreak.

What’s disheartening to palm growers in San Diego county is how the geography often creates a trap for cold air.  Right on the bay & in the foothills it is generally OK but lower elevations/valleys can experience the effects of this cold drainage during winter.

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

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I couldn't believe how cold it was in the wind Saturday night, but the morning temperatures weren't too bad. 8C (46F) Sunday morning and 10C (50F) this morning.

Jack Sayers

East Los Angeles

growing cold tolerant palms halfway between the equator and the arctic circle...

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The real question is when does it warm up in Los Angeles.The average temperature according to the National Weather Service is 63.9F.through May.That is several degrees lower than Palm Beach International in our coldest month(Jan-66.7F.)It is truly amazing to me the palms that survive in that coolness.

What you look for is what is looking

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(happ @ Mar. 17 2008,11:25)

QUOTE

(keiththibodeaux @ Mar. 17 2008,10:03)

QUOTE
Funny how perceptions are sometimes not inline with reality.  I always felt So Cal was a much warmer place than Louisiana.   I have been there many times, but almost always in summer, so never realized that your winters were on average so cold.  Not yankee land cold, but as cold as ours for the most part.  We beat you on the extremes, but you stay cooler longer.  I always thought San Diego was like Miami.  

Before palm interest got me reading your weather threads, my perceptions were not inline with reality.

Keith

Certainly at 32-34N latitude So Cal is much further north than Louisiana yet has a warmer winter than Louisiana, north Florida & much of Texas.

For example, the cold temperatures being reported are primarily all from San Diego county.  The minimums yesterday morning and today were above 50f in many areas of Los Angeles due to the wind.  It blew strong all night & kept the minimum to 54f at my place this morning.

March isn’t a particularly warm month in California [mostly low 70’s] due to the still chilly Pacific Ocean temps [near 60f].  The Atlantic along the Gulf Coast is much warmer all year long.  These oceans greatly influence the climate.  Another influence is mountains that generally block cold air from entering California.  The opposite is true east of the Rockies where there aren’t mountains or the mountain ranges are relatively low compared to the West and allow artic air to sweep down to the Gulf of Mexico.

This was a cold storm system that was tracked for over a week yet most areas [esp metro regions] observed minimums above 40f & day temps in the 60’s & today will be in the 70’s – hardly a major cold outbreak.

What’s disheartening to palm growers in San Diego county is how the geography often creates a trap for cold air.  Right on the bay & in the foothills it is generally OK but lower elevations/valleys can experience the effects of this cold drainage during winter.

Here is an interesting comparison of New Orleans and San Diego.

post-1207-1205788345_thumb.jpg

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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bubba,10 C and 8 C not cold for me  :P

Climate zone : 8b/9a

January average temperature : 41°F/5°C

July average temperature : 80°F/27°C

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Tony,46 to 50F may be warm to you but that is not a favorable temperature range for tropical palms.

What you look for is what is looking

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(elHoagie @ Mar. 17 2008,14:25)

QUOTE
I couldn't believe how cold it was in the wind Saturday night, but the morning temperatures weren't too bad. 8C (46F) Sunday morning and 10C (50F) this morning.

Jack,

How much did the WIND CHILL affect your palms? :;):  :D

Scott

Titusville, FL

1/2 mile from the Indian River

USDA Zone COLD

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Keith- The thing that throws a bit of a loop in it here is this winter we have basically been about 10F cooler than our norms..the WHOLE WINTER.

Overall, I've said it before, and I still believe it. San Diego has great "people" weather, for "plants", not quite as good.

To put it in perspective, from a So Cal point of view. Several heating systems I have seen from the 50's and 60's around here used 100% OUTSIDE AIR to heat the house with.  And last year, with the big heat wave we had, I found out that "JUST over" 50% of the greater Los Angeles area has air conditioning!!  So, someone thinks opening or closing the window is all one needs! :D

Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

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(BS, Man about Palms @ Mar. 17 2008,16:47)

QUOTE
Keith- The thing that throws a bit of a loop in it here is this winter we have basically been about 10F cooler than our norms..the WHOLE WINTER.

Overall, I've said it before, and I still believe it. San Diego has great "people" weather, for "plants", not quite as good.

Got to agreed with you on San Diego.  Sure been the case every time I have been there.  It is not so bad for plants either based on what I saw growing there.  And don't think I was not green with envy seeing those mid summer highs as opposed to our 90 degree plus with humidity to match.

Good news though, is that I will be there again in August.  Just when I will need a big cool down for sure.  It will also be my first trip there since catching the palm bug.  I am looking forward to face to face meeting the board folks over there too along with seeing many palms.

Keith

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Looking forward to it, Keith!

Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

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Differences in temperature over a relatively short distance [10-15m] are most pronounced in Los Angeles & why it is difficult to compare climates.  Several factors occur to create California's warmest winter  :cool:   One south-facing mountain range cuts right thru LA with broad valleys inland 80m [san Bernardino].  Frequent N & east diurnal wind.

Actually warmest winter maximums occur in Orange & San Diego counties [ie Anaheim /San Pasqual] & the low desert.  

It is calm this evening so no wind advantage.  Now it is strictly terrain/elevation.

LA: 75f /23.8

     54f /12.2  

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

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(dang, I hate when I post a response and hit "close" instead of "quick post" :angry:)

Anyway, Happ, - Did I read that right? Did you say THIS winter was California's warmest winter?  If so, someone forgot to tell Oceanside. ???

Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

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I think Happ was talking LA only.

Los Angeles has 2 mountain ranges that run East-West, meaning the weather blows right across the inland empire and through the Cabazon Pass via I-10.

San Diego Mountains all run North-South, meaning the air movement gets stalled trying to cross Palomar-Cuyamacas-Lagunas, etc. *Personal Theory Alert* The hot air rises over those ranges, but the cold air runs right back down our way, flowing through the river channels.

For us our worst lows were about average, but the daily lows, highs, and everything inbetween were as Bill said, -10F of normal.

Zone 9b/10a, Sunset Zone 22

7 miles inland. Elevation 120ft (37m)

Average annual low temp: 30F (-1C)

Average annual rainfall: 8" (20cm)

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(osideterry @ Mar. 17 2008,18:52)

QUOTE
I think Happ was talking LA only.

Los Angeles has 2 mountain ranges that run East-West, meaning the weather blows right across the inland empire and through the Cabazon Pass via I-10.

San Diego Mountains all run North-South, meaning the air movement gets stalled trying to cross Palomar-Cuyamacas-Lagunas, etc. *Personal Theory Alert* The hot air rises over those ranges, but the cold air runs right back down our way, flowing through the river channels.

For us our worst lows were about average, but the daily lows, highs, and everything inbetween were as Bill said, -10F of normal.

I guess this would explain why Malibu "catches fire" on Santa ana's, and San Diego county coastal doesn't, ever. I think. ???

Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

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Hey what do you know. I'm at 36F again. Gaw-aw-ly. Ha-ha-ha. It's good, It's good! lol

Zone 9b/10a, Sunset Zone 22

7 miles inland. Elevation 120ft (37m)

Average annual low temp: 30F (-1C)

Average annual rainfall: 8" (20cm)

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No doubt that the Climate of Los Angeles/San Diego is one of the Best in the World.That stated,however,it is hard to believe just how Cool it is.Using Anaheim as an example, the following represent low Minimum temperatures:

Jan.-23F

Feb-27F

March-29F

April-32F

May-37F

June-41F

July-46F

Aug.-44F

Sept.-43F

Oct.-30F

Nov.-29F

Dec-22F

This is suprising and interesting.Never would have believed it to be that potentially cold all year round.

What you look for is what is looking

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(osideterry @ Mar. 18 2008,10:02)

QUOTE
Hey what do you know. I'm at 36F again. Gaw-aw-ly. Ha-ha-ha. It's good, It's good! lol

WoW  :P you dodged the bullet, Terry

I've managed to locate the nearest NWS station to your conditions:

http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/mesowes....ner=off

Even in Oceanside there is considerable spread in minimums.  

Airport : 39f /3.8c

Camp Pendleton [main gate] 43f /6.1c

I don't think you will need to be concerned about minimums for a while  :D

LA: 49f /9.4c

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

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(Wal @ Mar. 15 2008,07:18)

QUOTE
I have to admit that until I read the details on weather in California on this board from you kind palmaholics, I truly thought that the weather there was similar to ours here in Brisbane, South East Queensland. Not so, not so by a very long shot. There but for the grace of geonoma go I.

I hope you get some warmth and long hours of it asap.

I used to think the same about So Cal and Perth for example. But So Cal seems to get much more extreme cold events that seem to last longer than Perth. And snow and ice. What's that? I've never even seen snow in my life before.

regards

Tyrone

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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(Tyrone @ Mar. 18 2008,14:58)

QUOTE

(Wal @ Mar. 15 2008,07:18)

QUOTE
I have to admit that until I read the details on weather in California on this board from you kind palmaholics, I truly thought that the weather there was similar to ours here in Brisbane, South East Queensland. Not so, not so by a very long shot. There but for the grace of geonoma go I.

I hope you get some warmth and long hours of it asap.

I used to think the same about So Cal and Perth for example. But So Cal seems to get much more extreme cold events that seem to last longer than Perth. And snow and ice. What's that? I've never even seen snow in my life before.

regards

Tyrone

I live here, and I can't believe the weather these guys are getting in some parts of SoCal! I think my location is probably not too different from Perth. My low this year is 4.5C (40F), and it hasn't been below 8C (46F) since mid February. There definitely hasn't been any frost or snow....

Jack Sayers

East Los Angeles

growing cold tolerant palms halfway between the equator and the arctic circle...

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(happ @ Mar. 17 2008,12:25)

QUOTE
Certainly at 32-34N latitude So Cal is much further north than Louisiana yet has a warmer winter than Louisiana, north Florida & much of Texas.

In January yes (although Louisiana and TX have more Hot days in mid winter and more CDD).  But in Feb - Apr TX and LA (Louisiana, not Los Angeles) seem to warm up much faster than SoCal.  I've had several 90F days and a boatload of 80F days, and this is totally normal for March in TX - It heats up fast here.  Of course it can cool down fast too as everyone knows.  So to say SoCal is warmer in winter isn't quite accurate, because in late winter, for example now, the deep south warms up lightning fast.  My average high right now is 76-77F and going up fast.  I suspect that is higher than most of SoCal.

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(syersj @ Mar. 18 2008,20:13)

QUOTE

(happ @ Mar. 17 2008,12:25)

QUOTE
Certainly at 32-34N latitude So Cal is much further north than Louisiana yet has a warmer winter than Louisiana, north Florida & much of Texas.

In January yes (although Louisiana and TX have more Hot days in mid winter and more CDD).  But in Feb - Apr TX and LA (Louisiana, not Los Angeles) seem to warm up much faster than SoCal.  I've had several 90F days and a boatload of 80F days, and this is totally normal for March in TX - It heats up fast here.  Of course it can cool down fast too as everyone knows.  So to say SoCal is warmer in winter isn't quite accurate, because in late winter, for example now, the deep south warms up lightning fast.  My average high right now is 76-77F and going up fast.  I suspect that is higher than most of SoCal.

Yes, agree that the rate of warmup it dramatically faster east of the Rockies & a much longer growing season  :cool:

Mid winter is a killer in Texas/Gulf/central Florida.  It is a very slow warmth in California but winter tends to out run frost.

LA: 74f /23.3c

     49f /9.4c

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

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I like S. California climate  above anyy florida and australia climate.And I think that S. California has mild and warm temperaturesand she has the most beautiful climate on the world.  :P  :P  :P

Climate zone : 8b/9a

January average temperature : 41°F/5°C

July average temperature : 80°F/27°C

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Tony,You wouldn't be a plant placed here on the Board by the So.Cal.Tourism Authority would you.So. Cal. is great but it simply cannot compare with Austalia or even the Southern half of Florida for Tropical Palms and Plants.Too Cold.

What you look for is what is looking

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The weather in So Cal, like Bill said, is great for people...not for tropical palms.

Huntington Beach, CA

USDA Zone 10a/10b

Sunset Zone 24

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(madagascarbob @ Mar. 19 2008,08:48)

QUOTE
I dont know why but that last bit of frost really nailed some of my plants !

I t seems that the light freezes we've had this year followed rain storms. cold plus humidity is a bad combo. Some of my succulents got hammered this year, and weren't harmed in last years hard freeze.

If global warming means I can grow Cocos Nucifera, then bring it on....

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(madagascarbob @ Mar. 19 2008,05:48)

QUOTE
I dont know why but that last bit of frost really nailed some of my plants !

Now I'm scared to go look outside at my palms.

Steve is correct. Every welcome rainstorm had a bitter sting as it left, a couple of clear cold days. It happened every time, except this last one jipped us on the rain.

Zone 9b/10a, Sunset Zone 22

7 miles inland. Elevation 120ft (37m)

Average annual low temp: 30F (-1C)

Average annual rainfall: 8" (20cm)

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(joe_OC @ Mar. 19 2008,10:03)

QUOTE
The weather in So Cal, like Bill said, is great for people...not for tropical palms.

hi joe. my city where i grow up is la paz, south baja california, méxico. theere we can grow cocos nucifera, adondia, crytostachys renda and other very tropical palms.

i can go there to live again any time i want.

NO ! NEVER AGAIN !

ask any body in my country wheres the best weather and climate in mexico, they say..... guadalajara, cuernavaca, oaxaca city, tijuana/ensenada.

nobody will tell to you acapulco, merida, veracruz, etc. all the hot humid places.

La Paz is horrible hot place for 5 months in the year. i dont care what palms i can grow there, is more important for me to be comfortable.

TEMP. JAN. 21/10 C (69/50 F), AUG. 29/20 C (84/68 F). COASTAL DESERT, MOST DAYS MILD OR WARM, SUNNY AND DRY. YEARLY PRECIPITATION: 210 MM (8.2 INCHES). ZONE 11 NO FREEZES CLOSE TO THE OCEAN.

5845d02ceb988_3-copia.jpg.447ccc2a7cc4c6

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Cristobal,This is a funny topic when you think about it.San Diego and Los Angeles together with all the spots in Mexico non-humid that you described are undoutedly among the best climates for Humans to live in year around in the world.For me, Mexico would be the best alternative Climate because of it's comparative warmth compared to So.Cal.Not trying to pick on anybody but as a Floridian use to heat, I think So.Cal. is too cool for my taste.(collective sigh of relief noted)

That stated,I would put the Climate of Florida and more particularly South Florida at the top of any list Nov.-May of any given year.From June to October it is not for the feeble hearted.However,warm season,particularly near the Coast,is not the worst in the world.You may sweat a little bit but there is a rather constant breeze off the Ocean that makes it bearable.To me the best alternative would be what a good friend of mine does and that is Palm Beach Nov.-early May.From Early May to October,he is in Jackson Hole,Wyoming. My family spent two weeks with his in late July and it was fabulous even without Palms.

The best Climate that I have spent time in was Medillen,Colombia,the City of eternal Spring.Best Climate I have ever spent time in.

What you look for is what is looking

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I flew from San Diego to Denver in June 3 years ago. Sat next to a lady who came out to San Diego for vacation. The week she was here was as cold a marine layer mess as we've ever had. She hated it and couldn't wait to get back to Denver.

Most of the Summer it's slightly too cool to eat dinner outside on my back patio. I sometimes go to Temecula for the day just to experience real heat. If I could make a minor local move, it would be to Fallbrook or Escondido. If I'm going to experience those places cold temps, I'd like to be in on the heat as well.

My experience of Maui in August puts it as the most ideal climate I can imagine. Just enough warmth and humidity to feel thoroughly comfortable all the time.

Zone 9b/10a, Sunset Zone 22

7 miles inland. Elevation 120ft (37m)

Average annual low temp: 30F (-1C)

Average annual rainfall: 8" (20cm)

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Maui is great too.Only problem is the long swim through big waves.

What you look for is what is looking

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I guess it's all about tastes.  To me Socal is not perfect for humans, but a little too cool.  Oh, I know they can get hot, but generally speaking, just too cool in spring/summer/fall.  I love REAL heat, many days of 95F + humidity  .  I can tolerate a few cold snaps in the winter, because I know the real heat will begin in earnest before too long.  That's why the only 2 places I would really want to live in the continental US would be South Texas or Central or South FL (preferably Central FL for personal reasons).  Even the Florida panhandle is a little too cool for me.  We heat up faster than the immediate gulf coast (MS/AL/FL panhandle) in the spring.

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I'll keep my cool temps, and you guys can keep the bugs that go with heat and humidity.

Terry's right...I used to live/work on the coast. and Fallbrook is way better overall temp wise. Especially the coastal valleys where Terry lives...cold in winter because of the sinking cold air...and foggy in spring/summer. The fog may not lift along the coast til 2-3 pm, and lift in Fallbrook at 9 am. But I still get the ocean breezes starting about 1 pm. Other than that hard freeze last year, Fallbrook has about the best weather in ca, if you ask me.

If global warming means I can grow Cocos Nucifera, then bring it on....

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Steve - 7  miles inland, I dodge a lot of the marine layer. Many mornings I can see it in the west like a cloud wall, while it's sunny at my house.

I think a hilltop in Fallbrook would be ideal. Gary Woods and JDA seemed to have less damage than Rancho Soledad.

Zone 9b/10a, Sunset Zone 22

7 miles inland. Elevation 120ft (37m)

Average annual low temp: 30F (-1C)

Average annual rainfall: 8" (20cm)

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Terry.....I'll tell you a great spot in O-side. The upper reaches of Sleeping Indian road, near Fallbrook. After the freeze of '07 there were areas where Agave Attenuata and Bouganvilla were untouched. You can see the ocean from this area, so unimpeded marine influence along with elevation=socal gardening Eden.

If global warming means I can grow Cocos Nucifera, then bring it on....

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Steve - I've driven up there a number of times, mostly visiting Las Palmas Ranch. Even stopped to look at a house for sale... really more of a "compound" with multiple houses and a tennis court. Out of my league price, but less than I expected.

The very top is called Morro Hill. You are right, that place would be about perfect.

Zone 9b/10a, Sunset Zone 22

7 miles inland. Elevation 120ft (37m)

Average annual low temp: 30F (-1C)

Average annual rainfall: 8" (20cm)

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  • 2 months later...

Is that nasty storm over San Diego going to clear out before the US Open at Torrey Pines?

What you look for is what is looking

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  • 2 weeks later...
Is that nasty storm over San Diego going to clear out before the US Open at Torrey Pines?

Uhhhh....yeah.......it's gone. :blink:

Coastal San Diego, California

Z10b

Dry summer subtropical/Mediterranean

warm summer/mild winter

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