Deciduous trees

[ruskinPalms]

What do you all think? Should we plant trees that lose their leaves during the winter in our palm gardens? Does this ruin the 'tropical look'?

Plumerias lose their leaves in winter. So does Delonix regia. What is more tropical than these???

Yet I still have for the most part resisted planting these in my garden. (I admit I do have two Plumeria that don't look so happy after this last little freeze...)

Any thoughts?

Was not sure where to post this, but I thought I would put it in this sub forum since it involves landscaping effects combined with palm plantings.

[_Keith]

For those of us who don't live in Tropical or Semi-tropical climates, well, we have lfew choices in this area.  I could plant them with conifers, but at least for me, that really does not go together.  

Here is a picture of palms with dormant Crepe Myrtles.  I enjoyed the contrast so much, I have duplicated it in my garden with new plantings this year.

[LJG]

Hell yeah. I have many trees that drop their leaves and will be adding many more. One point of clarification, I think there is a big difference between true deciduous - like Aspens, Oaks, etc. that drop consistently when day light hours drop. They are bare for months on end. Those I do not like. Now most tropical deciduous are really "semi-deciduous". Meaning they only drop under duress, cold snaps or to flower. These are perfect for the garden as they drop in late winter or early spring which allows light to kick-start lower growing plants, like palms. Once spring is in full effect, they flower or leaf out and provide the protection needed. I think you need them in a palm garden because:

1) Some of the best canopy trees are semi-deciduous. Schizolobium, Enterolobium, ect.

2) The prettiest flowering trees in the world are semi-deciduous. Caesalpiniaceae, Cassias, ect.

3) They provide seasonal interest.

Just my 2.....

[Brad-Tampa]

Bill, I agree with Len. A tropical flowering tree can add to the palm landscape and give seasonal differences that are hard to achieve with palms. These three pics are of the same Ceiba (I think) through the past year.

Brad

[ghar41]

I'm crazy about Japanese Maples.  

They are so versatile, so variable that I wouldn't enjoy gardening quite the same without them.  They come in just about every leaf color imaginable, with variations in leaf size, shape, and detail.  

http://www.japanesemaples.com/catalog/inde...id=2&page=1

Even in mid winter this A. p. 'Beni kawa' adds interest to my garden with its red branches.

[SunnyFl]

(LJG @ Feb. 21 2008,20:24)

QUOTE

The prettiest flowering trees in the world are semi-deciduous. Caesalpiniaceae, Cassias.....

...Jacaranda, Tecoma stans.....  

I think deciduous trees can add to the tropical landscape, especially those with interesting winter form, like the plumeria and crepe myrtle (the older ones have beautiful trunks).  A lot depends on what they're grouped with, as in Keith's picture of the palms with the crepe myrtles.  That's a very nice effect.

[amazondk]

There are many trees in the Amazon forest that shed their leaves for part of the year.  Since palms are an important part of the forest I would say that they go together.

dk

[iwan]

(ghar41 @ Feb. 21 2008,18:37)

QUOTE

I'm crazy about Japanese Maples.  

They are so versatile, so variable that I wouldn't enjoy gardening quite the same without them.  They come in just about every leaf color imaginable, with variations in leaf size, shape, and detail.  

http://www.japanesemaples.com/catalog/inde...id=2&page=1

Even in mid winter this A. p. 'Beni kawa' adds interest to my garden with its red branches.

I have seen Japanese maples in at least palm two gardens (yours Glenn and Dick Douglas') and probabably another garden in SoCal.  It was a shock.  Not an unpleasant shock, just something completely unexpected.  Japanese maples are another passion of mine, but I don't have enough shade yet to endulge.  I would have never considered mixing them in a palm/cycad garden.  Not sure I would be bold enough to mix them though.

[_Keith]

(iwan @ Feb. 21 2008,22:44)

QUOTE

(ghar41 @ Feb. 21 2008,18:37)

QUOTE

I'm crazy about Japanese Maples.  

They are so versatile, so variable that I wouldn't enjoy gardening quite the same without them.  They come in just about every leaf color imaginable, with variations in leaf size, shape, and detail.  

http://www.japanesemaples.com/catalog/inde...id=2&page=1

Even in mid winter this A. p. 'Beni kawa' adds interest to my garden with its red branches.

I have seen Japanese maples in at least palm two gardens (yours Glenn and Dick Douglas') and probabably another garden in SoCal.  It was a shock.  Not an unpleasant shock, just something completely unexpected.  Japanese maples are another passion of mine, but I don't have enough shade yet to endulge.  I would have never considered mixing them in a palm/cycad garden.  Not sure I would be bold enough to mix them though.

I have a few Jap. Magnolias in my garden as well.  There are a few that can handle full sun down here, so I know there are some that can handle your full sun as well.

Go for it.

[DoomsDave]

mONGO SAY:

Deciduous tree --

make GREAT firewood!

To light up cigar . . . .

[Kathryn]

Palms and Live Oaks look great together.  I wish I had room for both in my yard.

Sabal palmetto and Oaks at Jelks Preserve in Venice, Florida

[Kathryn]

The picture above also has Serenoa repens.

Bismarckia nobilis at Audubon Zoo in New Orleans

[Kathryn]

Livistona chinensis at Audubon Zoo in New Orleans

[Kris]

lovely stills of beautiful palms seen..especially the Livistona chinensis that Kathryn had posted..the palm is holding so many leaves without drying up the old fronds..very beautiful sight.

And even i love the canadian & japanese maples and magnolia's_period !

thanks & love,

Kris  

[Jeff in St Pete]

Kathryn, that L chinensis is beautiful!  I love the shade-grown look with the long petioles.  I grew lots of palms under live oak canopy in Tampa.  The palms thrived under them - they let the perfect amount of light through.

[PalmGuyWC]

Robert,

The only reason I have the two Japanese maples is because they were "attached" to some palms I bought a long time ago. It was sort of an all or nothing deal.

I felt a little odd planting mapels in a palm garden, but actually they blend in quite well, growing under 3 Trachycarpus wagnerianus. It gives a slight Asian touch to my garden. In the spring, with their bright red foliage, they are knock down georgeous contrasting with the green things around them. I also planted some cannas (Tropicana) around them, and it gives me a bright splash of color in an otherwise green garden.

The dominate tree in my garden is a giant decidious Oak, and it takes up a lot of room. It gives me welcome shade in the summer, and allows the light through in the winter. Unfortunately, I can't plant anything under it as they  will not take irrigation in the summer, or they get Oak root fungus. The Oak is estimated to be over 350 years old, so it's a keeper. It's one of the largest in California.

Dick

[MattyB]

Good point Len.  I'm planting most of my deciduous trees on the north side of my planting areas.  This will provide summer protection when they're leafed out and allow extra light in during winter without allowing the understory to burn because the sun will be coming from the south where all my evergreens will be planted.

[LJG]

Matt, your garden is in a perfect place to grow some really cool tropical flowering trees. Spend some time and track down some unique things. They take a while to grow and can take 10 years (or more) before you see flowers on some, but you are young and have a young garden. Don't settle with Jacs, T. tipu's, etc. Get some Delonix, Cassias, Covillea (I have a 5 gallon I might let you have this summer. I have two and want to see which takes off the most), Markhamia lutea, Calodendrum capense (these last two you can get at Vista Tree farm for cheap) and Mardy Darians current favorite canopy tree - Castanospermum australe. Gary and I have these. They are killer plants.

Also, your buddy Ron is a great resource. He has an eye for the rare stuff and he has a lot of it growing in his garden from what I read.

[ron@springhammock]

Of course it works, an evergreen blue spruce would look just weird!

[ruskinPalms]

I like live oaks mixed with palms as well. I guess the live oaks lose their leaves at some point but I have a hard time considering them a deciduous tree. Semi deciduous I guess is a better representation. I really see no problem with a tree that is bare only for a couple weeks to a month. Longer than that reminds of when I lived up north...bare trees for several months.  For the past couple years Delonix regia in my area had not gone completely deciduous. This year has been a different story. They all lost their leaves after the early January cold blast and have looked like barren, lifeless sticks since then. I hope they weren't killed outright. There were some surprising large specimens even inland in Riverview and Brandon. I know because it was real easy to pick them out immediately after the freeze since they were the first to drop their leaves after the freeze. There were other exotic tropical flower trees that seemed to try to hold their leaves a little longer than the D. regia but are pretty much bare now too.

[MattyB]

Thanks Len.  I'll keep an eye out for stuff like you mentioned.  You're right, Ron is a great neighbor to have.  I've gotta get over there and raid some of his aloes and stuff.  I do have 6 Delonix regia, 3 of which are ready to go into the ground this summer.  I learned my lesson last year by trying to take a Delonix out of the greenhouse in spring.  I didn't like the cool weather during the acclimation period and died.  So, I'll wait until the heat of early summer to get these puppies going this time.  They're so fast from seed in the greenhouse (seed to 5 gallon in 10 months) I could try these forever until I get it right.  Gary says no water all winter is the trick.  I can do that.

[ghar41]

(iwan @ Feb. 21 2008,23:44)

QUOTE

(ghar41 @ Feb. 21 2008,18:37)

QUOTE

I'm crazy about Japanese Maples.  

They are so versatile, so variable that I wouldn't enjoy gardening quite the same without them.  They come in just about every leaf color imaginable, with variations in leaf size, shape, and detail.  

http://www.japanesemaples.com/catalog/inde...id=2&page=1

Even in mid winter this A. p. 'Beni kawa' adds interest to my garden with its red branches.

I have seen Japanese maples in at least palm two gardens (yours Glenn and Dick Douglas') and probabably another garden in SoCal.  It was a shock.  Not an unpleasant shock, just something completely unexpected.  Japanese maples are another passion of mine, but I don't have enough shade yet to endulge.  I would have never considered mixing them in a palm/cycad garden.  Not sure I would be bold enough to mix them though.

I have a planting guide from a local nursery that explains a technique of planting Japanese Maples in full inland sun by using a 100% Azalela Camellia Mushroom compost in the planting hole.  It worked for me when I watered them correctly but some of mine still burned when I let them get too dry.

[ruskinPalms]

(ghar41 @ Feb. 21 2008,21:37)

QUOTE

I'm crazy about Japanese Maples.  

They are so versatile, so variable that I wouldn't enjoy gardening quite the same without them.  They come in just about every leaf color imaginable, with variations in leaf size, shape, and detail.  

http://www.japanesemaples.com/catalog/inde...id=2&page=1

Even in mid winter this A. p. 'Beni kawa' adds interest to my garden with its red branches.

Actually, those red branches are really cool looking. Would one of these grow in FL?

[ghar41]

(ruskinPalms @ Feb. 22 2008,21:29)

QUOTE

(ghar41 @ Feb. 21 2008,21:37)

QUOTE

I'm crazy about Japanese Maples.  

They are so versatile, so variable that I wouldn't enjoy gardening quite the same without them.  They come in just about every leaf color imaginable, with variations in leaf size, shape, and detail.  

http://www.japanesemaples.com/catalog/inde...id=2&page=1

Even in mid winter this A. p. 'Beni kawa' adds interest to my garden with its red branches.

Actually, those red branches are really cool looking. Would one of these grow in FL?

...don't know, but try this website....it claims that it can suggest varieties for your area by identifying your USDA zone with your zip code....

http://www.pacificcoastmaples.com/japanes....es.html

oh, and check out the rest of the site, there are some incredible pics....heres another of my red branched variety..

[Jim in Los Altos]

I have a few deciduous trees in my palm dominated garden. I've planted Japanese maples, Ceiba speciosa (floss silk tree), a species of saucer magnolia that has huge banana like leaves, and a coral tree. They all blend perfectly with palms.

[BobbyinNY]

m crazy about Japanese Maples.  

They are so versatile, so variable that I wouldn't enjoy gardening quite the same without them.  They come in just about every leaf color imaginable, with variations in leaf size, shape, and detail.  

They are such a rage up here - you can find them all over the place - everyone who wants an "upscale" looking yard has a japanese maple - especially because they grow so well here.

[ruskinPalms]

I looked up my zip code on the link and it gives me a 9-10 rating. Looks like they grow in zones 5 though 9 so I bet one would be borderline here. I must say that there is supposedly a native maple species here in this area but I have not seen it occuring naturally in the forests here - for that matter I  have not seen magnolia occuring naturally in the forests here, a very nice not so deciduous tree that is supposed to technically be native to this area. I did see these in the natural forests near my sister's house in the forests near Destin FL. The 'forests' here are oaks, pines, Sabal, Serenoa, and invasives. Some folks have planted maples in their yards and they are only deciduous for about a month whatever type they are.

I think a mental picture I remember most of a yard in my parent's neighborhood in South Venice FL is of a huge maple going deciduous in full autumn color with very healthy fruiting cocos alond side. Oxymoron? Irony?

I think I live in the transition zone of transition zones (the whole Tampa Bay area maybe down to Fort Myers) which is neat. I think I could grow a garden very reminiscent of Indiana or Michigan if I wanted to, or I could grow a garden much more akin to the tropics which is what I really want to do!

[_Keith]

While enjoying a glorious early spring day, I shot this picture today.   So, for me at least, not only do they go together, they create a unique juxtaposition.

[_Keith]

These giants are on the third lot over from my house.  Normally in summer with foliage on everything, you can't see them well enough to appreciate them.  See garage at bottom of picture for scale.

[Al in Kona]

Only the Plumerias are shortly deciduous for me here in mauka south Kona.  I have one super huge Delonix regia and two smaller ones but they never go bare here.  Oh, my Hong Kong Orchid tree does molt for a very short period of time.  As soon as the old leaves fall off new ones start forming.  Deciduous trees are very rare around these parts.

[falcon1988]

Hi Ruskinpalms,

Hope I can answer that question for you I had a japanese maple a ribbion leaf i transplanted from the north when i lived In Toledo however it leafed out In Feb and it just stayed that way til fall and it dropped its leafs and it died it was in the shade and it was getting water/feed it just didn't like the subtropical climate might try one again to see hope that helps out

[Steve in Brookings]

Some time ago, I developed a simple rating system for the degree of "exoticness" any given plant has:

Group 1:  "Exotics " -- Plants that are assertively tropical in their appearance...so much so that they will probably look out of place in a nontropical-themed setting.

Group 2:  "Blenders" -- plants that are either vaguely tropical in appearance or entirely neutral.  Some plants are botanical chameleons that will look tropicalish when supported by other tropical-looking plants, but will still fit in to a more temperate look if you want to go in that direction (many ferns fall into this group).  

Group 3:  "Spoilers" -- plants that simply clash with the climate theme suggested by your overall garden design.

Naturally, this is a subjective system:  one man's blender is another man's spoiler.  All gardens are artifices that rely on fakery of one kind or another.  Part of it depends on how palmyopian you are (I'm sure there are some who find any kind of dicots to be unacceptable uses of garden space).  Lot size and good design also come into play.  The smaller your yard, the more difficult it is to host a wide range of plant-climate effects.    

In general, I think it is unfortunate to eschew plants that perform well in your area and would give you much satisfaction just because they don't fit some preconceived notion of "the tropical look".  Cookie-cutter palmscapes are becoming as common as the cookie-cutter housing tracts they're located in, and maybe your ability to work out unlikely combinations is precisely what will make your garden distinctive.  The most dramatic plant in my yard at the moment is a 'Vulcan' Magnolia.  It's deciduous, and it certainly isn't tropical, but it sure has impact with those huge magenta-red blossoms on bare wood.