Mule Palm Hybrid???

[JayW]

A friend of mine who is a palm dealer picked this one up a few days back... any ideas on why it looks a bit odd? It almost has the characteristics of a Sabal Lisa but in a Mule Palm.

[chris78]

It has a pinnate leaf, so its not a sabal at all. It does have a look of a mule palm, and I think thats what it is. Its a nice looking palm and a great fine

Edited June 22, 2010 by chris78

[JayW]

Yes, I know it's not actually a Sabal, I just meant that it has the look of a Sabal Lisa as in appearance to the way some of the leaves aren't fully opening or how ever you would describe it...

I just haven't ever seen a Mule Palm quite like this one. Maybe someone here has?

[mnorell]

I just saw a Cocos nucifera in Key West that had a similar "fused" appearance, but I think it may have been due to a mineral deficiency. Does anybody else know if this is a possible cause of this condition? I'm pretty sure I've read of it before.

[JayW]

I just saw a Cocos nucifera in Key West that had a similar "fused" appearance, but I think it may have been due to a mineral deficiency. Does anybody else know if this is a possible cause of this condition? I'm pretty sure I've read of it before.

I've seen issues like that, but they were usually accompanied by yellow fronds and a over all sick looking palm. This one looks to be very healthy.

[DoomsDave]

JayW:

Don't know what it is, to be honest, but waiting with baited (bated?) breath to find out.

Got your point about Sabals.

Hmm. Could well be a cool Hibe, with that airy crown, but not plumose leaves.

Very likely.

Your bud picked well!

[peachy]

Until I got mine a few weeks ago, I had only seen photos of mule palms. Mine is gorgeous of course, but is definately not plumose. With all the hybridisation going on the USA, it's possible that your palm is from a different butia species than the usual capitata. Whatever the X, enjoy your lovely big palm. I think its a pretty one.

Peachy

[cfkingfish]

I think I have an idea of what is going on here. There is a condition, and I think it is viral in nature, that affects Syagrus species, and possibly other genera. It causes fronds to be "conjugated", making for almost a simple leaf appearance. I forget the name of the condition, but it is genetic in nature, and two Syagrus in my neighborhood have it. It looks like this Mule may have had this Syagrus in its parentage.

[Patrick]

Yeah, It's hard to see it in the picture (well, not too hard- what you see first is the pinnate fronds on the far right and left in the front), but I picked up what you were saying when you said S. 'Lisa'. It's not so much a cross between the two but it has the condition in the fronds of S.'Lisa'. Pretty cool. I've seen this condition in a Chamaerops as well. Whether it's a genetic mutation or something viral, I can't say. The Chamaerops I've seen with this condition is pretty old, and so's this palm above. Whatever it is, from what I've seen it doesn't seem to hurt or hinder the palm from growing any.

nice find, anyways!

[Patrick]

Yeah, It's hard to see it in the picture (well, not too hard- what you see first is the pinnate fronds on the far right and left in the front), but I picked up what you were saying when you said S. 'Lisa'. It's not so much a cross between the two but it has the condition in the fronds of S.'Lisa'. Pretty cool. I've seen this condition in a Chamaerops as well. Whether it's a genetic mutation or something viral, I can't say. The Chamaerops I've seen with this condition is pretty old, and so's this palm above. Whatever it is, from what I've seen it doesn't seem to hurt or hinder the palm from growing any.

nice find, anyways!

edit: Oh, I guess CF nailed it as stated above, it's genetic.

[FRITO]

looks heavily shade grown.

it also looks very similar to what sabal 'lisa' does. My friend Jeff found a local Butia exhibiting the congugated leaf form, heres a low res still of the Butia 'Jeffrey'

Edited June 23, 2010 by FRITO

[obabylive]

Patrick mentioned he has seen this in Chamaerops. I too have seen this in a Med Fan, oddly beautiful. There are two in front of a business here in Phoenix, the smaller and lesser mutated one has seeds, hopefully they'll mature and I can gather some before the next landscaping schedule. Take a look...

Chamaerops Humilis

[peachy]

OOOOH they are cute too.

Peachy

[Nigel]

Doesnt Boron deficiency allegedly cause fronds like this ?

It will be interesting to see if it grows out of it now that its in different soil. That should confirm if its a genetic or mineral problem.

[Alberto]

I just saw a Cocos nucifera in Key West that had a similar "fused" appearance, but I think it may have been due to a mineral deficiency. Does anybody else know if this is a possible cause of this condition? I'm pretty sure I've read of it before.

I remember Gileno showing me Cocos nucifera with fused leaves,if I remember well it is C.nucifera var.spicata (?)

The condition of adult plants remaining with the juvenile leaves is well known in Horticulture.

[freakypalmguy]

Dick Douglas has a Chamaerops that is fused together just like this, it is really interesting looking and some of the seed come true.

[Patrick]

That palm is a freak....but in a good way

[Dundo]

Jay it doesn't look like Sabal to me. Leafs are kinda different (just joking )

Well i would say its some kind of Butia x Syagrus hybrid with interesting leaf mutation. (like one in Chamaerops humilis "volcano", Sabal Lisa or Cocos nuciferas with undivided leafs)

Edited June 23, 2010 by Dundo

[RyManUtah]

Patrick mentioned he has seen this in Chamaerops. I too have seen this in a Med Fan, oddly beautiful. There are two in front of a business here in Phoenix, the smaller and lesser mutated one has seeds, hopefully they'll mature and I can gather some before the next landscaping schedule. Take a look...

Chamaerops Humilis

i love these =]

[PalmGuyWC]

Patrick Schafer will have some of my mutant Chamaerops for sale at the PS meeting at my place on Oct 3rd. The fronds are fused together and only have 3 or 4 blades. The fronds are thick like cardboard and are covered with silver tomentum. It's a dwarf Chamaerops with very small seeds, and can be grown in a pot for many years. It's definately a conversation piece in any palm collection. The palm has both male and female flowers and so far all the seedlings have come true like the mother plant.

Dick

[JayW]

Jay it doesn't look like Sabal to me. Leafs are kinda different (just joking )

Lol!!!

Thanks for all of the replies, folks. I guess palms are kinda like people, some are just very different looking! lol...

[Alicehunter2000]

I concur with Frito on the heavily shade grown aspect of the palm also. Very cool looking and a great find. Just for sh%&$ and giggles....what did he pay for it....that things huge!

[Mark Heath]

It is a mutant i would imagine, and a pretty one at that! I fear my XButyagrus

(BXCocos) is a mutant as well. Only time will tell w/ mine.

Jay, you had asked if anyone had seen this condition before and apparently other people have. That is a fantastic specimen, good score!

[PalmGuyWC]

It is a mutant i would imagine, and a pretty one at that! I fear my XButyagrus

(BXCocos) is a mutant as well. Only time will tell w/ mine.

Jay, you had asked if anyone had seen this condition before and apparently other people have. That is a fantastic specimen, good score!

Mark,

Please tell us it ain't so, that your B X Cocos might be a mutation. What leads you to think it might be a mutant? How did it weather the cold in Fla. last winter? At least your discovery led Matt in Temacula to try to hybridize Butia X Coconut, and apparently with some success. He has several seedlings that he believes are hybrids, but only time will tell.

I think the palm in question in this thread is a weird mutant. I have 3 old mules and none of them look alike.

Dick

[PalmGuyWC]

It is a mutant i would imagine, and a pretty one at that! I fear my XButyagrus

(BXCocos) is a mutant as well. Only time will tell w/ mine.

Jay, you had asked if anyone had seen this condition before and apparently other people have. That is a fantastic specimen, good score!

Mark,

Please tell us it ain't so, that your B X Cocos might be a mutation. What leads you to think it might be a mutant? How did it weather the cold in Fla. last winter? At least your discovery led Matt in Temacula to try to hybridize Butia X Coconut, and apparently with some success. He has several seedlings that he believes are hybrids, but only time will tell.

I think the palm in question in this thread is a weird mutant. I have 3 old mules and none of them look alike.

Dick

[freakypalmguy]

Whatever it is Mark, it's a beauty. Got some time for an updated picture?

[JayW]

I concur with Frito on the heavily shade grown aspect of the palm also. Very cool looking and a great find. Just for sh%&$ and giggles....what did he pay for it....that things huge!

I'm not sure what he paid for it, maybe nothing. I think a lot of them that he gets, people just want them removed. He has a tree business.

[JD in the OC]

Don't think its a nutrient defficiency, but a mutation. I've seen it in Cocos, Syagrus, Chamaerops, and now xButiagrus. Makes a very interesting conversation piece!

JD

[Mark Heath]

It is a mutant i would imagine, and a pretty one at that! I fear my XButyagrus

(BXCocos) is a mutant as well. Only time will tell w/ mine.

Jay, you had asked if anyone had seen this condition before and apparently other people have. That is a fantastic specimen, good score!

Mark,

Please tell us it ain't so, that your B X Cocos might be a mutation. What leads you to think it might be a mutant? How did it weather the cold in Fla. last winter? At least your discovery led Matt in Temacula to try to hybridize Butia X Coconut, and apparently with some success. He has several seedlings that he believes are hybrids, but only time will tell.

I think the palm in question in this thread is a weird mutant. I have 3 old mules and none of them look alike.

Dick

Dick,

I am praying that my palm is a BXCocos and not a mutant. I chickened out and covered it last winter but it did see 32f w/ light frost on one of the mornings that it was uncovered

and it had zero damage.

I agree w/ you in the fact that it promoted Spidey Matt to produce the BXCocos, so if Larry Noblick Identifies it as a mutant XButyagrus, well at least it did some good. It is a beautifull palm none the less and it looks like the real deal, so i am happy!

Matt, i will take a pic for you today!

[Mark Heath]

Whatever it is Mark, it's a beauty. Got some time for an updated picture?

Matt,

Here she is in all her glory! Has'nt grown much, but summer is now here and she'll pick up speed.

[PalmGuyWC]

Mark,

After seeing the latest photo of your palm, I'm thinking it's a mutant Butyagrus. If it were a Butia X Coconut hybrid the fronds should have gone pinate by now. At any rate you have a very unique palm, a one of a kind.

Dick

[kelen]

I already saw a Butia odorata like this here in Santa Maria and other next to Porto Alegre (South of Brazil) but the rachis isn't arching like that. Is this kind that people call by var. stricta?

Edited June 26, 2010 by kelen

[Tampa Scott]

Whatever it is Mark, it's a beauty. Got some time for an updated picture?

Matt,

Here she is in all her glory! Has'nt grown much, but summer is now here and she'll pick up speed.

Mark, Why the ??? now on this hybrid ? Looking at the picture I see the BxCocos in the palm. What are people thinking it should look like?

[freakypalmguy]

Thanks Mark, it's a really cool looking palm, no matter what it is. It's going to be very unique.

[JayW]

Here's a short video of the transplant...

Edited June 26, 2010 by JayW

[Mark Heath]

Whatever it is Mark, it's a beauty. Got some time for an updated picture?

Matt,

Here she is in all her glory! Has'nt grown much, but summer is now here and she'll pick up speed.

Mark, Why the ??? now on this hybrid ? Looking at the picture I see the BxCocos in the palm. What are people thinking it should look like?

Scott, Thanks for the encouragement!! I think that the cross BXCocos will look like this for sure but i am not certain that it would hold the strap leafs for so long as this one particular specimen has. I think that is what Dick is saying! One would think that it would have gone pinnate by now.

Either way, i am happy, like spidey Matt said,,, it is a beautifull palm!

[Tampa Scott]

Mark, I would not rule the palm out as ButiaXCocos. The ButiaXButiagrus cross I did held strap leaves for a longer period of time than any Butiagrus I have grown. I now have growing 4 S.romXButiagrus, and 2 still hold strap leaves and are the same size as the 2 that went pinnate in Dec. I think you have the real thing. You and your palm are breaking into new frontiers. You have gone where no man has gone before. If I am not mistaken isn't your ButiaXCocos the first Hybrid of its kind ? I can not understand how anyone knows what it should look like or how it should grow at this time.

[Mark Heath]

Mark, I would not rule the palm out as ButiaXCocos. The ButiaXButiagrus cross I did held strap leaves for a longer period of time than any Butiagrus I have grown. I now have growing 4 S.romXButiagrus, and 2 still hold strap leaves and are the same size as the 2 that went pinnate in Dec. I think you have the real thing. You and your palm are breaking into new frontiers. You have gone where no man has gone before. If I am not mistaken isn't your ButiaXCocos the first Hybrid of its kind ? I can not understand how anyone knows what it should look like or how it should grow at this time.

Hey Scott,

I have'nt completely ruled it out! I have my fingers crossed! I have spoken w/ Larry Noblick and he said it needs to be a little larger for identification. I would imagine it will have to be when it flowers and he can study the inflorescence. We will all know by then for certain!

You have done some funky stuff too, keep up the good work!!

Jay,

Your boom truck is a strong one, that was a monster palm!!! Where in Central Florida are you?

[Nigel]

I have spoken w/ Larry Noblick and he said it needs to be a little larger for identification. I would imagine it will have to be when it flowers and he can study the inflorescence. We will all know by then for certain!

?

Mark, some baseball size mini coconuts growing on it should confirm it !!

[JayW]

Jay,

Your boom truck is a strong one, that was a monster palm!!! Where in Central Florida are you?

Hi Mark,

That's actually my friends truck. He owns a tree business and sells cold hardy palms out of Bartow, Fl. It's his Mule palm.

Here's a link to his tree photos, look at those huge Pindos in containers! They're still for sale if anyone wants one!

http://www.floridasbesttrees.com/photo_gallery

Edited June 27, 2010 by JayW