New Madagascar palm named

[Jeff Searle]

To our great surprise(Ryan and myself) John Dransfield and Scott Zona showed up at the TPIE convention here yesterday and we all spoke briefly on this exciting news. He was really surprised to see it mentioned here on Palm Talk so quickly after his talk just a few nights earlier. The whole story has been fascinating to learn.

Jeff

[BS Man about Palms]

I wouldn't think it would be a suprise to him as "you heard it here first" !! Don't cha know?  Palmtalk, fostered the whole series of events, I would think it obvious the folks here would be eager of the outcome.

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

(calyptrocalyx&licuala freck @ Jan. 19 2008,19:26)

QUOTE

(waykoolplantz @ Jan. 16 2008,21:58)

QUOTE

John Dransfield gave a lecture at Fairchild tonite & revealed the name of a newly discovered coryphoid palm

Faith Bishock...Dr Dransfield..Pete Balasky  & Christian Faulkner holding a seedling

Hi All,

One thing, The seedling being held by hand, ???  ???

For a One year old,  grown from seed of the

'New Genus' I find it Hard to believe that this seedling

would be at that size after striking (Which most likely

take at least 3-4 mths maybe more) And be the size

thats pictured for sure is not 6mths of growth.

???  ???  ???  ???  ???  ???  ???  ???  ???  ???

Regards,Mikey. ???

 Not to many reading the first page,

I'm just wondering, has anyone else thought about

this, And besides most are jumping to the second page.

(from a Concerned point of view)

Mikey..........

[BS Man about Palms]

Mikey, not sure exactly what you mean, but the few I saw at Gary Levines greenhouse he brought back seemed to grow fast, they were pushing a second leaf within the first month or so he brought them back.

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

??? , what steroids are you using.

[gsn]

(calyptrocalyx&licuala freck @ Jan. 19 2008,21:37)

QUOTE

a seedling

One thing, The seedling being held by hand, ???  ???

For a One year old,  grown from seed of the

'New Genus' I find it Hard to believe that this seedling

would be at that size after striking (Which most likely

take at least 3-4 mths maybe more) And be the size

thats pictured for sure is not 6mths of growth.

???  ???  ???  ???  ???  ???  ???  ???  ???  ???

Regards,Mikey. ???

 Not to many reading the first page,

I'm just wondering, has anyone else thought about

this, And besides most are jumping to the second page.

(from a Concerned point of view)

Mikey..........

[BS Man about Palms]

I don't think Mikey's picking liars.

Heres Matt in SD's from the other thread.  Picture taken in early Dec, brought back as 1 leaf seedlings in April?

I suspect John D. brought one of the best with him, so its concievable to me

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

(BS @ Man about Palms,Jan. 19 2008,23:09)

QUOTE

I don't think Mikey's picking liars.

Heres Matt in SD's from the other thread.  Picture taken in early Dec, brought back as 1 leaf seedlings in April?

I suspect John D. brought one of the best with him, so its concievable to me

 Gsn,  All I'm referring to is,

Being in the Coryphoid family, or even if Nannorrhops family as was

mention in earlier postings, I'm stunned Does'nt anyone

else see how fast (10X faster) than any palm in both

of the two Alliances that this is growing, So I can't ask

about growth rates, And I'm sure many others want

to know this information, Esp at the speed its growing.

Really out grows ALL in the CORYPHOID competely.

By Ten Fold...............................

Gsn, ???  tell me where there's anything I mentioned that word

Liar,What line was that in or between, ???

Thx Bill,

Mike.

[gsn]

(calyptrocalyx&licuala freck @ Jan. 19 2008,21:37)

QUOTE

 Not to many reading the first page,

I'm just wondering, has anyone else thought about

this, And besides most are jumping to the second page.

(from a Concerned point of view)

Mikey..........

Mikey,

Two posts on the same subject before anyone replies? What is with all the raised eyebrows if you weren't questioning this being a 1 year seedling?Or if there was some question in your mind if this was the REAL deal?

(from a Concerned point of view)

What are you concerned about that it has astonishing growth rate,that would be real concerning!

I leave it at my original statement,and let everyone else read between the lines and draw their own conclusions! ::

[Matt in SD]

Hi Mikey,

Tahina is not a coryphoid palm, but I'm still curious about you thinking that the growth rate on these (Tahina) seedlings is fast.  The palm in the first photo, and my plant both have 3 leaves after ~1 year of growth.  I got the plant in April and it had one full leaf, but the second spear was not showing yet.  I would say this is average for the palms I've grown from seed including some slow palms (like Voanioala).  I've never seen a palm that does not put out at least one full leaf in the first year from seed.  But I've newaver grown a Corypha.   And you certainly have grown WAY more palms that me from seed.

What seems rather unique about the Tahina seedlings is that the first leaf is fully palmate, and about 1 1/2 to 2" long (3-5 cm).  It's sort of like a bonsai fan palm.  The third leaf on my plant is not more than 3" long so they are only slightly bigger from one leaf to the next.  I also find it interesting that the leaf opens when it is only about half emerged...the only other fan palm I've seen doing this is Kerriodoxa, which is a close relative.

I am 100% certain my plant is a Tahina (at least as close to 100% certain as you can ever be).  It passed through the hands of not more than 3 people on it's way to me and came directly from the tree shown in Bruno's original photos from Dec 2006.  I hope it keeps growing at the rate it's growing!

Matt

[bruno]

Matt,

your seedlings come directly from the first palm that seeded in january 07 the only one a the time. It was the first photos published of it.

I took as many seeds as I could find on the ground and in the water around the palm and from the palm itself.

Xavier and I brought them back to the offices of the cashew plantation. I told him to have some of them germinate with the same hot and humid climate in that season,  and put them in cans or whatever he could find for containers. They germinated in 3 days I think and made long roots immediately. See photo which was taken a month after the first try at germination!. Since then about 60 have been planted around the cashew plantation.

When Xavier came to Tana, he brought a few seedlings with him that are in my garden now. They are larger than the one on the first photo of this thread! The seedlings you have were germinated by Alfred in Tana from the seeds I brought back.

I don't really understand why so much doubt again! and polemics... Enjoy, that's all. I think it is a very simple pleasure. bruno

[waykoolplantz]

(BS, Man about Palms @ Jan. 19 2008,23:09)

QUOTE

I suspect John D. brought one of the best with him, so its concievable to me

The seedling shown in my pics did not belong to Dr Dransfield. It was entrusted to the care of Christian Faulkner...by its owner here in Florida who so graciously allowed us all to see more than just pictures. It is one of the two here in the US...collected & confirmed by Bruno.

I just wish it was mine...but i have patience...and envy

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

Hi  Matt, & Bruno  

Thanks for sharing that info,

Thats what I was after, I was lead to the understanding

you guys started with seed, (not a  seedling)

Now that explains the size.Thats the best info I've

got regarding growth rate, what a fast grower this palm is.

And sure does beat Kerriodoxa hands down.

Thank-you once again for that helpful  info, thats spot on to basically what I wanted to know.

Regards Mikey

[Adam from Oz]

It's so CUTE!

Gimme!

Cheers,

Adam with nothing particularly scientific to add....

[Zac in NC]

(Adam from Oz @ Jan. 21 2008,10:04)

QUOTE

It's so CUTE!

Gimme!

Cheers,

Adam with nothing particularly scientific to add....

And it looks nothing like a Trashycarpus either, so you don't have to get out the flame thrower.

Zac

[bruno]

""Bonjour à tous de Palm-Talk,

I have noticed a discussion on the size of the seedling shown at Fairchild ! It is rather small !! Ours, growing in the exact conditions as natural (soil and climate) are much bigger ! 8 palms already well developped and the number nine is curently coming out. They had been grown first in nursery pots (one month) and transfered to bigger container. Mixture of original soil from the tsingy and addition of good quantity of organic matter. Following some pictures. One with Anne-Tahina on the side of the young Tahina.

Veloma !

Xavier Metz""

[bruno]

Xavier just sent me those pics. He asked me to post them for you to see the baby tahina, how fast it grows in that heat.

[bruno]

The  seeds have been sown in february 07! wow...

[bruno]

What are you wainting for now? Quit hawaï and Florida and all, come to Masiloka for speed growing.

[gsn]

Bruno,

Not by any means am I an expert,but those in the garbage cans appear to be planted maybe a little to DEEP. Would hate to see him loose them  to rot because of that?

Edit:

Don't know when he transfered them to the garbage cans,if they have been there since the transfer from small  nursery pots ,maybe they will be fine?

[LJG]

(gsn @ Jan. 23 2008,10:52)

QUOTE

Bruno,

Not by any means am I an expert,but those in the garbage cans appear to be planted maybe a little to DEEP. Would hate to see him loose them  to rot because of that?

Edit:

Don't know when he transfered them to the garbage cans,if they have been there since the transfer from small  nursery pots ,maybe they will be fine?

I think I woudl trust Bruno, I am sure he knows what he is doing.

[LJG]

(bruno @ Jan. 23 2008,10:37)

QUOTE

""Bonjour à tous de Palm-Talk,

I have noticed a discussion on the size of the seedling shown at Fairchild ! It is rather small !! Ours, growing in the exact conditions as natural (soil and climate) are much bigger ! 8 palms already well developped and the number nine is curently coming out. They had been grown first in nursery pots (one month) and transfered to bigger container. Mixture of original soil from the tsingy and addition of good quantity of organic matter. Following some pictures. One with Anne-Tahina on the side of the young Tahina.

Veloma !

Xavier Metz""

When you see this it makes you wonder if the 100 year cycle is incorrect. May turn out that these flower in 20 years.  :cool:

[waykoolplantz]

(bruno @ Jan. 23 2008,13:45)

QUOTE

What are you wainting for now? Quit hawaï and Florida and all, come to Masiloka for speed growing.

I gotta spot picked out ...send me one & we'll see how quickly mine catches up

[gsn]

(LJG @ Jan. 23 2008,14:08)

QUOTE

I think I woudl trust Bruno, I am sure he knows what he is doing.

Len,

It was just an observation,I am sure Bruno knows what he is doing!  I don't believe Bruno is growing those pictured,I beleive they are at  Mr. Metz's house!

I know nothing about this species growing habits ,obviously.  That is why I prefaced my comment, I am not an expert by any means!

But it does apperar the trunk is underground,as the spears(petioles) are coming up from the ground rather than the trunk. I know from experience that this can cause problems with other palms.

[LJG]

(gsn @ Jan. 23 2008,11:19)

QUOTE

(LJG @ Jan. 23 2008,14:08)

QUOTE

I think I woudl trust Bruno, I am sure he knows what he is doing.

Len,

It was just an observation,I am sure Bruno knows what he is doing!  I don't believe Bruno is growing those pictured,I beleive they are at  Mr. Metz's house!

I know nothing about this species growing habits ,obviously.  That is why I prefaced my comment, I am not an expert by any means!

But it does apperar the trunk is underground,as the spears(petioles) are coming up from the ground rather than the trunk. I know from experience that this can cause problems with other palms.

That is how almost every palm grows as a seedling. Especially large ones. Everything is subterranean until it grows out of the soil.

[gsn]

Len,

Is this seedling growing subterranean? ???

(Zac in NC @ Jan. 21 2008,17:32)

QUOTE

It's so CUTE!

We know it was repotted in the larger container,so it didn't necessarily grow from seed that far below the surface. I will stop commenting here,as it seems Len and I disagree. Which is fine,everyone should be able to express their opinions. And I do not wish to derail this thread any further mixing it up with Len.

I noted my concern,it can be taken or left for what it's worth or not worth! Again just my observations .

Bruno,

They are really cool palms ,having character leaves from the get go,instead of being strap leaf seedlings!

[LJG]

Scott, I think you read too much into things. Like you did with Mike and thinking he was calling someone a lair. No one is derailing anything. My point is it looks like it is growing like any other large Madagascar palm would. Most my large Dypsis and Raveneas all grow the same way. And, yes it is growing subterranean right now. The growing point is obviously underground. Until the plant gets big enough to push that out of the ground and start developing trunk, it will do this.

But there are far too many people smarter then either of us on here to decide. Anyway........

[BS Man about Palms]

LOVE IT!  

[John Dransfield]

I'm amazed at how rapidly Xavier's plants are growing - but, of course, planted very near where the seed came from, we must assume that they have ideal climatic conditions. They are very much bigger than when I saw them in September 2007.

Someone in the thread mentioned the 100 year cycle. We have no evidence of a 100 year cycle - some of the press releases mentioned it, but they made it up as we did not mention any time span for the palm. However, what we do know is that the villagers who live near to the palm and know it have no recollection of any individuals in the population ever flowering before the 2006/7 flowering, and there are no signs of dead or collapsed trees, apart from the individual that flowered in 2006/7. This suggests a rather long time between germination and flowering - and of course, we have no means of guessing how long "long" is.

John

[PalmGuyWC]

It would seem enough seeds were collected and germinated to save this new discovery from extenction. I just hope enough seeds were spread around to various tropical locations, such as Fairchild Gardens, Montgomery Foundation, and to Hawaii and tropical Australia. It seems Hawaii might be the only location not subject to frequent Hurricans, and of course it's native habitat.

Just curious as the commercial aspect of a new palm discovery always arises. I wonder what a seed or seedling is selling for? Also, I wonder how long the seed remains viable?

Dick

[Walter John]

(PalmGuyWC @ Jan. 28 2008,22:35)

QUOTE

It would seem enough seeds were collected and germinated to save this new discovery from extenction. I just hope enough seeds were spread around to various tropical locations, such as Fairchild Gardens, Montgomery Foundation, and to Hawaii and tropical Australia. It seems Hawaii might be the only location not subject to frequent Hurricans, and of course it's native habitat.

Just curious as the commercial aspect of a new palm discovery always arises. I wonder what a seed or seedling is selling for? Also, I wonder how long the seed remains viable?

Dick

Good points Dick, especially the part about Australia. So, does anybody know if some seeds or seedlings came to OZ ?

It's a bigun this Tahina palm fella. Love to see more pics of older plants.

[Dave-Vero]

I'm sure someone's developed a simple, speculative population model to see how many Tahinas you'd need to ensure that two or three non-siblings were flowering at the same time.  Pollination between non-siblings would help reduce inbreeding.

My hunch is that if you set time-to-flowering at 50 years, it would take a big population to ensure outbreeding opportunity.  Thousands of palms, maybe?  

I think a simple Excel model could come up with a decent estimate of how many Tahinas would be needed to have what's called a "viable" population.  Such a model could be run a number of times with different time spans from seed to flowering.

[PalmGuyWC]

Did I understand that there was a second Tahina that flowered after the first one was found? From the photographs, it seemed there were many that were reaching maturity, so there should be others flowering soon, which could be next year or 20 years.

This appears to be a huge palm, so I don't think it will be found in everyone's front yard. It will be interesting to see how the development of this palm will progress. I only hope the locals will reap the rewards of this rare palm growing in their back yard and I hope they will realize how valueable it is and will protect it.

Dick

[waykoolplantz]

Hopefully Tahina will come to symbolize conservation &  preservation to the Madagascar natives.

Who knows how many species may have already been lost by their desperate need to survive.

With education & some income I would hope Tahina sets an example & raises this awareness.

[FossilNypa]

Very interesting topic!

I googled Tahina spectabilis, and found this photo @ Flickr.

[bruno]

I have always forgotten to mention that in all posts of the tahina, the pics had been taken by Xavier or Nathalie Metz. Give them back the credit. And Xavier is the one who is working hard o preserve that palm and make the people realise how incredible and valuable it is.

When I was there I remember quite well having seen an enormous fallen trunk, not far from the first one that had flowered.

[Jeff Searle]

This is all extreamly interesting..........and dosen't happen very often.

Jeff

[Tyrone]

(Wal @ Jan. 28 2008,07:43)

QUOTE

(PalmGuyWC @ Jan. 28 2008,22:35)

QUOTE

It would seem enough seeds were collected and germinated to save this new discovery from extenction. I just hope enough seeds were spread around to various tropical locations, such as Fairchild Gardens, Montgomery Foundation, and to Hawaii and tropical Australia. It seems Hawaii might be the only location not subject to frequent Hurricans, and of course it's native habitat.

Just curious as the commercial aspect of a new palm discovery always arises. I wonder what a seed or seedling is selling for? Also, I wonder how long the seed remains viable?

Dick

Good points Dick, especially the part about Australia. So, does anybody know if some seeds or seedlings came to OZ ?

It's a bigun this Tahina palm fella. Love to see more pics of older plants.

I doubt it Wal. It would take 6 months for Biosecurity Australia to put Tahina on the federal permitted list. I'd say we missed out.

regards

Tyrone

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

(waykoolplantz @ Jan. 28 2008,13:17)

QUOTE

Hopefully Tahina will come to symbolize conservation &  preservation to the Madagascar natives.

Who knows how many species may have already been lost by their desperate need to survive.

With education & some income I would hope Tahina sets an example & raises this awareness.

Hi Waykoolplantz, & All

We honestly could learn from the Madagascan Locals

as far as looking after their Land.

They're really good at looking after their Country, Many

just need to understand as menitioned in other posts,

It's the Western World that needs to be the people

(All of Us) to learn.

Shifting cultivation does'nt harm their lands, if anything

this helps.They don't cut everything and as they cultivate

This helps the soils etc, as they move in many cases.

But as said before Western world comes in to Clear

their lands for there uses, With various crops to

sell Overseas. So lets Hope We can learn from our own

mistakes and take just a leaf from the locals way.

It's not just us, Earlier Generations from The Western

World have done so much clearing before. Myself, I

feel we owe them so much more. I hope Tahina

does make us understand the preservation and

awareness of others Mistakes.

Cheers , Mikey.  

[bruno]

No seeds reached OZ ! A few are in France, but I don't know much more!!!!!

One of you in OZ asked me for quite a big quantity; I sent him to Alfred to whom we had given all the seeds to be sold. The money should have gone back to the local villagers. Alfred was sick and did not do anything with them. A few were germinated here, there must be 10 seedlings left in Tana. I suppose the seeds were lost.

A large quantity has left the area a few days ago, more are coming, they will be sent to Kew. From there? Nursery.

bruno