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Butiagrus everettii aka Jubutyagrus


edbrown_3

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Hi, Scott:

My apologies; my post was incorrect.  The defective flowers appeared to have incomplete parts of both sexes, even tho they were smaller than normal female flowers and did have some petals.  They were in fact imperfect "perfect flowers," w/ apologies!  merrill

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merrill, North Central Florida

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I have taken lots of pictures. I will be sorting these pictures this weekend and will be getting them posted.I took pictures of the 4 palms and I hope it will explain what I see first hand. I also removed my Grapefruit tree and planted another one of these hybrids.  Scott

Scott   :cool:   Citrus Park FL. N.W Tampa   www.aroundmyhouse.com                                                                                                      

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  • 2 weeks later...

On my study of palm #1: I also found all male flowers are gone before the female flowers become receptive. The palm started flowering Jan.1. All male flowers were gone on Jan. 16. The female flowers started showing signs of being receptive Jan. 22. I wanted to try Sygrus pollen, but the Sygrus flowers have come and gone. I did have Butia pollen and I used it. I will be using Sygrus pollen on this palm in the future. Is 3wks the normal time from first male flowers to being receptive?

Scott   :cool:   Citrus Park FL. N.W Tampa   www.aroundmyhouse.com                                                                                                      

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Hi, Scott:

There is tremendous variation in relative timing of male and female flowering on Butia.  Three weeks is toward the outer limit; sometimes they very slightly overlap.  I used to select those w/ a wider interval for convenience in pollination.  Yours would be just about perfect!  Best Wishes, merrill

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merrill, North Central Florida

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  • 4 weeks later...

I just want to give a update on my hybrid palms. Palm #1 used Butia pollen, after 3wks around 25 seed set. Palm #2 & #3  (used no pollen myself, but S. rom. across the street were in flower) #2 seed set of aprox. 70. #3 has 23 seed. Palm # 2 is in flower again and found 3 male flowers with 12 stamen, 6 flowers with 8 stamen.

Scott   :cool:   Citrus Park FL. N.W Tampa   www.aroundmyhouse.com                                                                                                      

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  • 4 weeks later...

Update: Palm #2 looks to have a good set of fruit. Palm #1 holds on to 6 fruit and as always #3 has nothing.

Scott   :cool:   Citrus Park FL. N.W Tampa   www.aroundmyhouse.com                                                                                                      

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  • 1 month later...
I think this is the best place to ask the experts. First I will give little history,then the facts and thn my question.This will make for a long post. I have a Butia that was planted by the former homeowners who purchased the palm in Texas .This palm has the characteristics of the Butia X Jubaea.This palm has also produced many plants that have grown to look like Butiagrus.I have not pollinated this palm myself the offspring have been natural.I think the palm must be self sterile for this is the reason it produces so many hybrids with near by Sygrus.I have raised around 60 offspring with 90% having the Butiagrus characteristics.The other 10% looked to be Butias and I given all of them away.The 3 that I have growing show the following characteristics: PALM #1 (9yrs old)= Has a Sygrus texture leaf in a single plane.The flower spathe is covered 90% with rust colored tomentum inside spathe color is yellow with pink stripe tint.Flowers are yellow on the lower flower stalk,pink on upper flower stalk. PALM #2 (8YRS OLD)=The flower spathe is also covered 90% in tomentum. Leaves have a more heavy texture than#1.The leaves show a few hooks. Flowers are yellow male/pink female. The spathe is pink on the inside.This palm has produced seed and I have a 1.5yr old plant from this palm. Palm #3(8yrs old)=Leaves as in #2.The flower spathe is 100% covered in the tomentum.The inside spathe color is blood red.The male and female flowers are yellow on a red stem. Palm #4 (8yrs old) gave to a friend (I thought it was a plain Butia at the time) Stands only 1.5ft tall with dark green leaves with hooks. NOW THE QUESTION: Is it likley the Butia out of texas, is really Jubaea X butia? Thanks Scott

OK now here are the pictures of the hooked leaves on the mother palm

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Scott,

I have just re-read this thread and the attached threads. As I understand it, you have a palm that came from Texas that you believe is a butia X Jubaea, and from the photographs and the descriptions you have given, it appears to be a Bujubaea. The strange thing is.....judging by the age of your palm, there were no Jubeaes growing in Texas at that time. I can only surmise that the palm or the seed that it grew from came from Calif. where there are Jubaeas.

The last photographs that you posted are of siblings that came from your Bujubaea. The spathes on my Bujubaea look almost identical to your sibling spathes. They are tomentose with a rusty fuzz on the spathes and they are bright pink or red on the inside. My Bujubaea is a silver blue, while your siblings appear to be green. I have a small (3') Bujubaea X Syagrus and it is all green but with a heavy texture. Mine is years away from blooming.

It's odd to me that the inside of the spathes are a bright pink or red as all the Jubaeas and Butias that I have seen are cream colored on the inside of the spathes. Some of my Butias have either cream or magenta colored flowers, and the Jubaea has bright magenta flowers. Where this color comes from on the inside of the spathes is a mystery to me. Another difference wilth the spathes on my Bujubaea is that they are quite long and not so thick as on either Butia or Jubaea.

I think you are correct in assuming that your mother plant is self sterile and that your siblings are crossed with Syagrus. Could you take some photographs of your siblings from a distance so that we can see what the overall palm looks like?

Thanks for the great photos and descriptions as this subject is very interesting to me.

Dick

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Richard Douglas

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Thank you for your Reply Dick! I also have 2 other (younger) hybrids that are showing variegated leaves.(I will get pics of those soon) And I will get a picture of the young palm from Hybrid #2 also. Thanks again!

Edited by Tampa Scott
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Picture of hybrid #2

trunk base of Hybrid #1 (sorry repeat pic)

Edited by Tampa Scott
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Hi, Tampa Scott:

Your posts re' suspect hybrids are extremely interesting, the stamen counts are particularly puzzling. I'm digesting your very interesting info; Many Thanks! Hope to comment after more thought.

Your photo of the trunk base of Palm #1 is particularly interesting; almost exactly like a photo published in A Brazilian journal during WWII [by Beccari?] which certainly looked like a reverse XButyagrus, i. e., S. romanzoffianum X Butia. The rings on the trunk are more pronounced and the trunk seems to clean itself more. The palm was not plumose. He had apparently escaped to Brazil during the hostilities.

Best Wishes,

merrill

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merrill, North Central Florida

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Hi, Tampa Scott:

Your posts re' suspect hybrids are extremely interesting, the stamen counts are particularly puzzling. I'm digesting your very interesting info; Many Thanks! Hope to comment after more thought.

Your photo of the trunk base of Palm #1 is particularly interesting; almost exactly like a photo published in A Brazilian journal during WWII [by Beccari?] which certainly looked like a reverse XButyagrus, i. e., S. romanzoffianum X Butia. The rings on the trunk are more pronounced and the trunk seems to clean itself more. The palm was not plumose. He had apparently escaped to Brazil during the hostilities.

Best Wishes,

merrill

Here is my tuppence worth........

The mother palm looks to me like the Butias I found growing in the south west corner of Rio Grande do Sul , Brazil, some had red insides to the spathes. In my opinion the mother is not a hybrid, but it would be interesting to see pics of seeds. I am guessing they are rounded.

The other trees to me seem like Butyagrus I saw in Brazil .

I am posting a picture now of one of these natural hybrids to show similarity of trunk.

post-432-1209048511_thumb.jpg

Resident in Bristol UK.

Webshop for hardy palms and hybrid seeds www.hardy-palms.co.uk

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I wonder if those hybrids could be with another Syagrus ?

Resident in Bristol UK.

Webshop for hardy palms and hybrid seeds www.hardy-palms.co.uk

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Nigel,

It's very interesting to hear you have seen Butias with red color on the inside of their spathes. I have never seen such a Butia. It is odd that some Butia capitatas will have cream colored flowers and some are magenta, but maybe they are not B. capitatas? I have one Butia called B. yatay var Paraguayensis that has the most spectacular brightly colored magenta flowers. The palm is very stought and it's been very slow to form a thick trunk only about 2 meters high. Patrick Schaffer has gotten many hybrid seeds from this palm. The foliage has a very heavy leathery texture and the spathes are short and stubby and have very thick woody walls.

Nigel, I will defer to you on Scott's mother palm, since it appeared it was self sterile, which my Butia X Jubia is, but it seemed to be receptive to Syagrus pollen..........which mine is. Isn't this fun??

Dick

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Richard Douglas

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Hi - I'm coming in on this late, but is one of the pics of the Butiagrus everettii?

I've tried googling it and it comes up with nothing.

Scott

San Fernando Valley, California

Sunset Climate Zone 18

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Hi, Nigel:

Yes, the trunk you've posted is very similar to those of Tampa Scott and Beccari. Beccari didn't specify which Butia was involved in his cross; it looks like you've found it! Is this the one that had an unusually high proportion of hybrids? Beccari's had a bleached trunk like Scott's. Was the trunk of your palm recently debooted?

Please continue your instructive posts!

Best Wishes, merrill

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merrill, North Central Florida

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Pic of HY2 trunk base (crock sz 10)

And flowers from HY2 w/extra stamens and petals

HY2 Tree

And the seedling from HY3

Edited by Tampa Scott
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Nigel,You are correct in that the seed are round.I have pictures of the seed ( I am trying to locate the pics) The spathe on the mother palm is yellow on the inside.The mother palm will be in flower in the next few weeks. I will get a photo then.

Edited by Tampa Scott
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Nigel,You are correct in that the seed are round.I have pictures of the seed ( I am trying to locate the pics) The spathe on the mother palm is yellow on the inside.The mother palm will be in flower in the next few weeks. I will get a photo then.

Scott, I am as certain as I can be that this is your Butia ( pictured below ) , growing everywhere in south west RS, Brazil.

Most have yellow flowers and yellow spathes, but oddly there was an occasional one with red appearing.

It is an absolute stunner, I am trying to persuade the locals to field grow it, but it takes 3 years to get a message home so I reckon they might plant some in 2010.

Merrill, the trunks are most certainly bleached white in Brazil when exposed to the sun, and in one area I saw a prolific butyagrus population growing naturally so everything fits because Scots appears to be doing the same thing.

post-432-1209069515_thumb.jpg

Resident in Bristol UK.

Webshop for hardy palms and hybrid seeds www.hardy-palms.co.uk

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Here is a pic of the reins (about 3 ft. long) that hang off the lowest leaflets on HY#2. The juv. palm produced by this tree also is showing reins now.

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Hi, Tampa Scott:

In response to your question in post 61, Nos. 31 and 36 in the following thread are XJubutyagrus everetti. I have some more complete photos, but because of my lack of expertise, would have to send them as a personal message. Please let me know if you need the full-length photos. Best Wishes, merrill

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?sh...;hl=jubutyagrus

Edited by merrill
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merrill, North Central Florida

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Thanks guys for all the input :) Yes, the #1 hybrid has a different look from any of the other hybrids I have raised. You can see more of the S. rom. traits in it. I have 3 more that look like they may have that look. The #1 hybrid as well as the new 3, I found growing closer to the S.rom. that grow 15 ft away. It is possible that #1 hybrid is a reverse cross. I do find all this information very interesting. I will continue to follow up on any other findings that I may encounter on my quest. I do appreciate all the input that is given. And for all you guys that have the Butia offspring from me please post your pics and findings. Thanks

Edited by Tampa Scott
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OK I did find the pic of HY#2 fruit and pic of fruit now on palm.

Edited by Tampa Scott
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post-839-1209435509_thumb.jpgname=Tampa Scott' date='Apr 25 2008, 04:29 PM' post='196960]

Thanks guys for all the input :) Yes, the #1 hybrid has a different look from any of the other hybrids I have raised. You can see more of the S. rom. traits in it. I have 3 more that look like they may have that look. The #1 hybrid as well as the new 3, I found growing closer to the S.rom. that grow 15 ft away. It is possible that #1 hybrid is a reverse cross. I do find all this information very interesting. I will continue to follow up on any other findings that I may encounter on my quest. I do appreciate all the input that is given. And for all you guys that have the Butia offspring from me please post your pics and findings. Thanks

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<div align='center'></div>Tatsuo Thayer

Spring Hill, FL usmc_logo.jpg

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Scott,

Look at leaf petioles heavy teethh are Butia characteristic-- abscence of teeth yet heavy fiber is a Jubea characteristic

Look at size of flowers and # of stamens. 6 stamens---Butia 16 or so are Jubea.

in between this is a hybrid . Pure Jubea flowers are fairly large compared to Butia ---

these are sort of "rule of thumbs" criteria that dont require judgement calls .

Other criteria are Butia fruit is smaller and Jubea fruit is much larger and have this pointed end on fruit. You see 3 disctinctive eyes. Butia fruit is rounded and have less pronouced eys. There are so many BUtias in Florida and they are so variable plus we just dont see Jubeas here to compare against. I made several trips to CA to look at these characteristics. I will try to post a few photos of definitive characteristics but will have to search my N drive.

Best regards

Ed

"Butia fruit is rounded and have less pronouced eys."

Dear Ed,

We have local B.capitata that have ovoid seed....almost a down scale of a queen seed... the fruit is yellow. (See Avitar showing the highly trained seed cleaning Rhode Island Red) Initially I thought that these may have had some Jubaea parentage, but ruled this out after a stamen count..

regards,Malcolm

Edited by malcthomas
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I'd like to compare notes. One thing I've noticed is that ALL the hybrids that I have seen with Syagrus in them are green. All of my Butiagrus are all green, and the 3 way Hybrid (Butia X Jubaea X (Syagrus) is also all green. Have the rest of you noticed this trait? All of my Butias are blue/green and so is the Butia X Jubaea that some of the 3 way crosses came from.

The most silver Butia I have is a B. yata. It turns very silver/blue with summer heat and it seems to hold more fronds than the other Butias. I have also noticed that a cross section of the petiole of the B. yata is more rounded while the others are more a flattened oval in shape.

Dick

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Richard Douglas

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Dick, I have noticed this also. If the blue/silver color was to show up in Butiagrus, it would make for one outstanding palm. Who knows someday a blue/silver Butiagrus may show up.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Ok guys, the Butia (mother of the hybrids) has now opened its spath. Flowers are red, inside spath color is tinted red. The stamen count was 8 on the two male flowers found on the ground. I will do more stamen counts and get pictures when the sun gets up in the sky today.

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