Butiagrus everettii aka Jubutyagrus

[edbrown_3]

I was going through the long thread in the link. Page 1 shows a picture of this at Merrills house in Gainesville.

Note the Syagrus qualities of trunk --- This might be a passed from fathers side ( pollen)   I am offereing this opinion for a little discussion .

In pollenating Cycas rev-taitugenis with Cycas diananensis pollen-- the hybrid has the leaf qualities of Cycas diananensis ( broad queen sago like leaves)

Perhaps the trunk characteristics come from the fathers genetics?  Looking for some heated discussion and other observations.

Best regards

Ed Brown

[BS Man about Palms]

I need a picture or link to understand, agree or argue.  

[edbrown_III]

http://palmtalk.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboar...t=ST;f=1;t=4789

BS, here is the link

[merrill]

Hi, Ed:

The trigeneric hybrid is named XJubutyagrus everettii in accordance with the international rules of nomenclature; there is no XButiagrus everettii, only XButyagrus nabbonandii, the famed bigeneric  hybrid named for either father or son Nabbonand.  The Nabbonands are famed French rose breeders;  I just stumbled on their very recent rose advertisement on the internet yesterday.  Best Wishes, merrill

[edbrown_III]

Merrill,

Good to hear from you... Now that we clarified the link-- and my bungling of the nomenclature and certainly the spelling

How about some opinions on what characteristics folks see in the your photos.

I am curious about characteristics that show up later on in the plants life.  I have one of your Jubutias --- I dont see any difference so much in floral characteristics but see the massive ness of the Jubea trunk expressing itself.  Am I the only one that see the expression of Syagrus in the trunk of you XJubutyagrus everettii?  

Best regards,

Ed

[merrill]

Hi, Ed:

My impression is that the Syagrus nature in the JXBXS has been recognized by several.  Using JXB pollen on a Syagrus probably would give a slightly smoother trunk than seen on my XJubutyagrus.  I would be happy to provide to you JXB pollen if your JXB aren't flowering yet, and if you can reach a Queen inflorescence.  Do you have a so-called Santa Caterina Queen flowering?  Please let me know.  It seems to me someone has claimed such a reverse XJubutyagrus on the internet - have you noticed one?

Best Wishes,

merrill

[edbrown_3]

Merrill,

Good to hear from you. THe JubButia is flowering as we speak!  We will see how it responds to the forecast lows.

My Santa Catarinas and Parana's Alta Planos from Alberto are stilll youngsters but we will see. I tried the reverse cross several years ago but didnt time it right Technicue is better now but the trees are too tall I shall have to wait until the Alta Planos y Santa Catarinas are up taller.

I dont quit have a reverse just a Dick Douglas JubeaButia x Syagrus ---- variation of yours just more Jubea blood  than Butia pollenated with Syagrus.

Best regards,

Ed

[PalmGuyWC]

I had a long chat with Patrick Schafer on the phone last night, and what was the subject?  Cocoid hybrids, of course. Patrick tells me that generally the characteristics of the mother tree is expressed more than the pollen doner, at least in the younger stage of the hybrid plants.

He believes he has crossed Syagrus X Parajubaea but the 2 leaf seedlings look very much like Syagrus, except he thinks they may be more "ridged" than a pure Syagrus would look, but he said it's to early to draw a conclusion until the seedlings grow up.

In the case of Syagrus X Bujubea, the young plants have more of a Syagrus apperance, however they have wider strap fronds and a heavier texture than a pure Syagrus. With Bujubaea X Syagrus cross, the plants (now 5 gal size) more resembles the mother tree (Butia X Jubaea) and has a heavier texture than the other cross. Oddly, for me at least, the 2nd cross has grown faster then the 1st cross with Syagrus as the mother.

Hanging on one of my Syagrus, half developed, are seeds crossed with Jubaea. Fruit development in N. Calif. comes almost to a stop in the winter, and they don't start growing again until warmer weather in the spring. It takes over a year for the hybrid seeds to mature on a Syagrus, while Jubaea seeds mature in about 5 months, and somewhat longer on Butias.

Except in a rare case, with Syagrus, none of my palms bloom in the winter time, and there is a burst of blooms in the spring and summer. It's also been observed that the occasional Syagrus that blooms in the winter or very early spring are devoid of female flowers or have very few.

For the most part, it seems, the characteristics of the pollen doner don't show up until later development of the hybrid seedlings. Some of these hybrids are so new, it may take years until trunks are formed and then we shall see if they are thick or thin and/or self cleaning. In the case of my Bujubaea, it has retained the boots, and looks much like a Butia trunk, except it's much thicker.

Dick

[edbrown_3]

Dick,

This is good information. !  I am trying to sort out what to look for... I seemed to see S. romanzoffianum character trunk in Merrills older trigeneric hybrid. In your observations  you see Butia characteristics in the trunk. Its a different tree.

This prevents me from jumping from conclusions. The younger ones (of various hybrid combinations) have differences in the texture and stiffness (or relaxiveness ) of the leaves. --- Normal variation or signs of incipient hybrid qualities? I am waiting to decide.

I have one of Merrills Bujubeas from times past. 5 years ago I had my doubts of it being a hybrid as I couldnt see any definitive Jubea charateristics----yet  at the tender age of 10 is is starting to express Jubea trunk girth, heavy fiber in the leaf bases and some Jubea like qualities in the flowering spathe. --  yet no larger flowers or increased number of stamens .

I recognize .I need to learn more patience (it seems to have disappeared with andropause) as in some cases these hybrid characteristics are latent and surprise us later in the treees life.

Much obliged for the good opinion and best regards,

Ed Brown

[merrill]

Hi, Ed:  

Growers who found volunteer XButyagrus in their Butia  seed beds, Ross Laffler,  Leo Nordman, and others, said that the much greater vigor of the XButyagrus made them very easily distiinguishable in the seed bed.   OTOH, in my growing batches of pure XButyagrus seedlings,  there has been a succession of runts following the first vigorous flush.  The total proportion of the runts in the population was relatively small.  Some of these runts grew well in a couple of years, some did not.   If Mark Heath or Mr. & Mrs. Lewis at Moultrie, FL are reading this, I'd be very interested in what their proportion of runts is.  Neither has mentioned it; perhaps their proportion is much smaller.

QUOTING POST #9:  BY Ed:  I have one of Merrills Bujubeas from times past. 5 years ago I had my doubts of it being a hybrid as I couldn’t see any definitive Jubea charateristics----yet  at the tender age of 10 is is starting to express Jubea trunk girth, heavy fiber in the leaf bases and some Jubea like qualities in the flowering spathe. --  yet no larger flowers or increased number of stamens .   END QUOTE.

In my experience,  even as advanced a generation as [(JXB)XB]XB, always w/ J on the mother’s side, still has an occasional extra stamen, i. e., seven stamens.  It is necessary to count them on quite a few male flowers on an inflorescence to find the lucky seven, tho.  Haven’t seen it on pure Butia.  As mentioned before, high water tables are not to Jubutia’s liking; in better drained soils Joey Hendersons  100 Jubutia show some Jubaea character fairly early, as do my few JXB.   High water tables have killed some Jubutia, i. e. John Bishock’s.  It certainly grows some other palms like Phoenix  extremely  well, tho.

Best Wishes, merrill

[Scott Mcintosh]

I live in FL. and we do not have Jubaea palms growing here. I want to know what the definitive charateristics are for the flowers,spathe,seeds,leaves and etc. Also the charateristics of JubaeaXButia

[_Keith]

(Scott Mcintosh @ Jan. 02 2008,13:25)

QUOTE

I live in FL. and we do not have Jubaea palms growing here. I want to know what the definitive charateristics are for the flowers,spathe,seeds,leaves and etc. Also the charateristics of JubaeaXButia

This is a little off topic, but I went to your personal website from your signature.  Your personal weather station is really cool.  What are you using?

[merrill]

Hi, Scott:

Here is info re' J hybrids:

http://palmtalk.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboar...f=1;t=4789;st=0

[Scott Mcintosh]

I think this is the best place to ask the experts. First I will give  little history,then the facts and thn my question.This will make for a long post. I have a Butia that was planted by the former homeowners who purchased the palm in Texas .This palm has the characteristics of the Butia X Jubaea.This palm has also produced many plants that have grown to look like Butiagrus.I have not pollinated this palm myself the offspring have been natural.I think the palm must be self sterile for this is the reason it produces so many hybrids with near by Sygrus.I have raised around 60 offspring with 90% having the Butiagrus characteristics.The other 10% looked to be Butias and I given all of them away.The 3 that I have growing show the following characteristics: PALM #1 (9yrs old)= Has a Sygrus texture leaf in a single plane.The flower spathe is covered 90% with rust colored tomentum inside spathe color is yellow with pink stripe tint.Flowers are yellow on the lower flower stalk,pink on upper flower stalk.  PALM #2 (8YRS OLD)=The flower spathe is also covered 90% in tomentum. Leaves have a more heavy texture than#1.The leaves show a few hooks. Flowers are yellow male/pink female. The spathe is pink on the inside.This palm has produced seed and I have a 1.5yr old plant from this palm. Palm #3(8yrs old)=Leaves as in #2.The flower spathe is 100% covered in the tomentum.The inside spathe color is blood red.The male and female flowers are yellow on a red stem. Palm #4 (8yrs old) gave to a friend (I thought it was a plain Butia at the time) Stands only 1.5ft tall with dark green leaves with hooks. NOW THE QUESTION: Is it likley the Butia out of texas, is really Jubaea X butia? Thanks Scott

[PalmGuyWC]

Scott,

All the characteristics you have given would lead me to believe your mother plant is a Butia X Jubaea, however until recently, and as far as I know, there were no mature Jubaeas growing in Texas. The tomentum on the spathes would indicate some Jubaea parentage and maybe the hooks on the tips of the fronds. Does the mother palm have a trunk thicker than the normal Butia?

I have a Bujubaea and the spathes are covered with rust colored tomentum, and they are bright pink on the inside when the spathes first open. I also have a bujubaegrus but it's small and has never bloomed, so I don't know if the tomentum characteristic will be manifested when it blooms.

I would think it would be highly unlikely that a Bujubaea would come from Texas unless the seed of that plant came from California where the chances would be much more likely. The only Butia that I know of that has tomentum on the spathe is B. eriospatha and it's quite rare in the USA, so I think that would be an unlikely prospect also.

I'm sorry, I'm afraid I haven't been much help. Maybe some pictures of the palms and their spathes might be of some help.

Dick

[Scott Mcintosh]

Dick, The mother palm measures 8 feet around at the lower trunk where the boots have fallen off and it is 11 ft. tall to the bottom of new spear. It flowers only in the spring with 3-4 flower stalks. The offspring (palm#1) measures 6.5 ft. around the base and is aprox. 15 ft tall to bottom of new spear.

[Mark Heath]

Hello Merrill,

In regards to your question! I would have to say i get about a third of the XButiagrus's are runts and grow poorly compaired to the initial flurry of seedlings in the first year. I've had XButiagrus's germinate up to 3 years later after sowing but they follow the same slow rate of growth as the runts in the second season.   My guess is that the later germinating seedlings(XButiagrus), favor the parent palm the Butia, which would explain the slower growth!  But that is only a guess!  I'ts unfortunate that i have'nt set them aside to later view which parent they most resemble!  Also, the death rate is higher w/ the later-germinating seedlings.  Of course, that could be due to my impatience w/ bare-rooting them while they're too small to transplant!!

[edbrown_3]

Scott,

Look at leaf petioles  heavy teethh are Butia characteristic-- abscence of teeth yet heavy fiber is a Jubea characteristic

Look at size of flowers and # of stamens.  6 stamens---Butia 16 or so are Jubea.

in between this is a hybrid .  Pure Jubea flowers are fairly large compared to Butia ---  

these are sort of "rule of thumbs" criteria that dont require judgement calls .  

Other criteria are Butia  fruit is smaller and Jubea fruit is much larger and have this pointed end on fruit. You see 3 disctinctive eyes.  Butia fruit is rounded and have less pronouced eys. There are so many BUtias in Florida and they are so variable plus we just dont see Jubeas here to compare against. I made several trips to CA to look at these characteristics. I will try to post a few photos of definitive characteristics but will have to search my N drive.

Best regards

Ed

[edbrown_3]

Heres a few files to explain.  Also if you go to the Fairchild Tropical Garden Virtual Hebarium they have picture of the hebarium sheet for JUbea chilensis. It lists it as J. chilenisis but it is very hybrid --12 stamens ( instead of 16) and it shows very definitive fibrous (not armed petioles).  I cant post it here as the adobe is too large but I will post a few miscellanous jpegs of Jubea seeds etc.

[merrill]

Hi, Scott:

You pose an interesting question.  These things are always difficult [and occasionally impossible] to figure out.   We are dealing with extremely small populations.

An interesting clue would be the number of anthers on the individual palms you're studying.  More then six anthers is usually evidence of hybridization with Jubaea.  If the succession of hybrids maintains a maternal line containing Jubaea to F3, there will be a few extra anthers even in F3.  Jubaea on the paternal side typically provides far less excess anthers, usually not past F1.

The suspected further hybridization of JXB with Syagrus suggests you have F3 or higher.  When the suspected queen hybrids bloom, it would be very interesting, and I believe a public service, to try to backcross with queen.  In the past this has given a plumose XButyagrus F2, which was unique.  It would be nice to repeat that and it might be easier to do in later generations!

Best Wishes, merrill

P. S. to Ed and Mark: Best Wishes. It’s in the wee hours now; will respond tomorrow.  Sleep well!

[Scott Mcintosh]

Thanks guys! I will have flowers on the #2 hybrid in the next few days. I will count the anthers.

[merrill]

Hi, Mark:

I'm relieved that others get a noticeable proportion of defective plants when they produce XButyagrus; it wasn't just me.

Hi, Ed:

Dr. U. A. Young and others of us figured out that the so-called "Jubaea" near the former front entrance of FTG was in fact JXB.  FTG didn't have good records of the source, except it was Robert Montgomery, which was long ago!  How old is the herbarium page identifying the JXB as Jubaea?  Last time I was there, the JXB itself was correctly labeled.  

The character of J in JXB fruit is mostly lost even in F1, let alone higher generations.  OTOH, my squirrels can tell the difference even in F3; they prefer the non-hybrids.

Best Wishes, merrill

[edbrown_III]

Merrill,

I will post you a link. of the hebaria page. It is identified as Jubea but only has 12 stamens. This suggests a hybrid. I was looking at other features notably the very fibrous petiole --  This is very simular to my tree. ----earlier on one of these discussions you  had mentioned the heavy fiber ---

Best regards

Ed

[Mark Heath]

Hello Merrill,

I hope one day soon you can come visit me and see all the palms that i have here!  You'll get to see first-hand all the hybrids i've done and you'll also see the why Albert Livingston calls me young Dr Frankenstein!  You've created a monster!!!

Hello Ed,

I can't wait for you to visit here again and see the dramitic difference from when you were here last! I'll need your help w/ indentifying some Syagrus's that i have bought over the years as well.  I'll save some funky pollen for you when they open!  I also can't wait to show you the Jubaea that i have here, i've had it for about 3 years and is doing great!  It has a basket ball sized head at the moment!

[Scott Mcintosh]

My #1 palm (POST 14) Anther count 5, counted 20  of the opened flowers and they all had 5.

[edbrown_3]

Mark

planning come down next week end to see you. I will call later in week .

[Scott Mcintosh]

I went back and counted anthers on #1 palm (as more flowers are now open. Most are 5, few 6, and very few 7 anters. Palm #2 is now flowering.The anther count most are 6, few 7, found 2 with 8.  Palm #3 looks like it will have flowers this week.

[merrill]

Hi, Scott:

I'm at a total loss to explain your flowers w/ 5 stamens, but the few excess stamens [i. e., over six], suggest about third generation, i. e. [(JXB)XB]XB, which in my experience lose their self-sterility.  Best Wishes, merrill

[Scott Mcintosh]

Merrill, I'm at a total loss, and will TRY to explain. The pedicel of the inflorescence has rachillae 26" long,  the rachillae have additional rachillae on them. The additional rachillae are 1/2"-1" long.The 5ct stamens are found on these. The 6and 7 ct. stamens are found along the main rachillae. These little rachillae are found only on the #1 hybrid palm and not on hybrids #2 0r #3. The #1 palm also has the smallest flowers with petals only 1/8". Hybrid #2 petals are 1/4". Also of note hybrid #2 has 2-3 ft reins that hang from lower leaflets.

[merrill]

Hi. Scott:

You've jogged my memory.  Now I remember a similar phenomenon on some of my Butiinae, on Butia rather than XButyagrus.  I suspected the smaller flowers and resultant smaller fruit produced a defective seed, but never followed through.  I didn't think to count stamens.  You'd be doing a service by seeing if the seed from both the little and normal rachillae produce seedlings.  Best Wishes, merrill

[Scott Mcintosh]

Hi Merrill, This palm has flowered for the last four years and has not set seed. Scott

[merrill]

Hi, Scott:

We can always hope!  merrill

[PalmGuyWC]

Patrick Schafer got an excellent seed set in 2007 using Jubaea as the mother plant crossing it with Butia X Jubaea. On another Jubaea inflorescence, he crossed with Butia. Each cross resulted in close to 600 seeds, and they all looked uniform in size and quality. The fruit and seeds looked typically like Jubaea and they were easy to clean, as the fruit came away eaisly from the seeds and had no fiber such as a Butia would have.

What I'm wondering is........since Jubaeas don't grow well in warm, humid climates, such as Fla., I'm wondering what the Jubaea X (Butia X Jubaea) will look like. It should have more of a Jubaea apperance, but I'm wondering since the plants only have 1/4 Butia parentage, if that will be enough to grow well in a warm, humid climate?

I think it's already been demonstrated that Butia X Jubaea will take the heat and humidity. I guess we can only speculate on what the results will be with 1/4 Butia parentage until it's tried. Both of these crosses should be extreamly cold hardy.

Dick

[Scott Mcintosh]

Dick, Let us not speculate. I have room here in Fl. to give it a try.

[merrill]

Jubaea X Butia doesn't do well in high water tables in Florida.  John Bishock lost one.  Planting on a berm has been helpful.

[edbrown_III]

Plant on a berm or raised bed.  Mine is about 12 " above grade.

[Scott Mcintosh]

After doing a close inspection of the flowers on my three hybrids I stumbled across another interesting find. Palm #1 has very little pollen and the flowers have 3,5 and 6 petals. Does the petal count have any meaning ?

[PalmGuyWC]

I'm afraid I have very little to report, as we have had very chilly temps. in N. Calif. most of December, and all of Jan. so far.  My coldest temp. this winter has been 25.5F (-3.5C), but most nights for the past 3 weeks have been in the mid 30's and day time temps. in the 50's. For the past 6 weeks all of my palms have been "asleep" with little or no detecatable growth.  I suppose the winter chill is the reason I can grow such palms as Parajubaeas, Jubaes, and Tracheycarpus, as I have a theory it is the mean temps. that allows the cool loving palms to thrive in my climate with such hot summers, but still with cool nights.

In a "normal" winter, I could expect a few toastey days, but that has not happened this winter, as every day has remained below 60F (15.5C). Thus far, I have seen no frond damage to any of my palms. 25F or below is where I might see frond damage to the Parajubaeas, but they are still nice and green. If there is anything to a gradual cooling, and a "hardening off" of palms, mine should be very acclimated to cold now.

In a few more days we are expecting a clold blast from the Artic, but it remains to be seen if it will slide to the east of us, but right now it doesn't look promising. I expect to see no growth on the palms until spring.

Once the palms start blooming in the spring, I plan to do an anther count on the Butias, Jubaeas, and the cocoid hybrids.

Dick

[merrill]

Hi, Scott:

Sometimes there are what appear to be defective [shall we say vestigial or incomplete?] individual female flowers on Butiinae.  I've intended to try to germinate the runty seed that come from these apparently defective female flowers, but have never followed thru. That may be what you have there.  Best Wishes merrill

[Scott Mcintosh]

Merrill, The flowers with the extra petals are the male flowers. I also found extra petals on the other two Butiagrus yesterday. Extra stamens,extra petals and very little pollen. The female flowers have shown no signs of being receptive,very few male buds remain.