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_Keith

Zone 8b/9a Palms

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_Keith

OK, I am putting together a master selection/collecting list for Zone 8b/9a palms.   This is what I have compliled from what I have seen here.  Please help me complete/refine it.  Feel free to add notes like "no frost" as I know some can handle the temps, but not frost on the leaves.  I will continue to post updates as the list is refined.  Also feel free to correct spellings as these are cut and paste, and I know some are wrong.

A . Mexicana

A. tota

Accopraphe wrightii

Acrcomia media

Allagoptera arenais

Arenga caudata

Arenga engleri

Arenga micrantha

Bismarkia nobilus

Brahea aculeata

Brahea armata

Brahea brandeegei

Brahea clara

Brahea edulis

Brahea moorei

Butia archeri

Butia capitata

Butia eriospathea

Butia paraguayensis

Butia x Jubea

Butia yatai

Butiagrus

Butiagrus houstonii

Butiagrus nanborand

Butiagrus picophylla

Butiagrus x Butiagrus

C.  Radicalis

C. cataphratum

C. mitus

C. radicalis

Caryota urens

Chamadorea microspadix

Chamerops humilis

Chamerops humilis "Cerifera"

Chuniophoenix hainansis

Coccothrinax crinata

Copernecia alba

Dypsis decipiens

G. argyrata

Jubaea chilensis

Jubeaopsis caffra

JubeaXbutia hybrid

Jubutia (JxB)

Jubutiagrus

Livistona australis

Livistona benthamii

Livistona chinensis

Livistona chinensis

Livistona decipiens

Livistona drudei

Livistona fulva

Livistona muelleri

Livistona saribus

Nannorhops ritchiana

Phoenix dactylifera

Phoenix reclinata

Phoenix robelini

Phoenix sylvestris

Phoenix theophrasti

R. hystrix

Ravenea rivularis

Rhapidophyllum hystrix

Rhapis excela

Rhapis subtitlus

Rhopallostylis sapida

Sabal bermeudana

Sabal birmingham

Sabal causerium

Sabal causiarum

Sabal domingensis

Sabal mauritiaformis

Sabal mexicana

Sabal mexicana

Sabal mexicana

Sabal minor

Sabal minor louisiana

Sabal palmetto

Sabal palmetto

Sabal pumos

Sabal uresana

Sabal Xtexensis

Sabal yapa

Serenoa repens

Seronoa repens

Syagrus romanzoffiana

Syagrus romanzoffianum

Trachycarpus "Naga Hills"

Trachycarpus campestris

Trachycarpus fortunei

Trachycarpus latisectus

Trachycarpus martianus

Trachycarpus princeps

Trachycarpus schizophylla

Trachycarpus takil

Trachycarpus wagnerianus

Trithrinax acanthicoma

Trithrinax brasilenis

Trithrinax campestris

Wallichia distyca

Washingtonia filibusta

Washingtonia filifera

Washingtonia robusta

Wyodea bifurcata

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AlexnAtlanta

I would add Sabal Tamaulipas, Phoenix Rupicola, the other varieties of Rhapis (including R. Multifidia), and Caryota "Himalaya".

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FRITO

here are a few I know that are 9b + palms and I dont reccomend long term as 8b/9a palms.

Phoenix robelini - 9b

Wyodea bifurcata - 9b/10

Ravenaea rivularis - 9b

Bismarkia Nobilis - 9b

Rhopallostylis sapida - 9b (cool climate not for SE usa)

what are these:

Butiagrus houstonii

Butiagrus nanborand

Butiagrus picophylla

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_Keith

(FRITO @ Dec. 29 2007,22:16)

QUOTE
here are a few I know arnt 8b/9a palms.

spelling is wrong on lots of those and double entry on some.:o  :P

Phoenix robelini - 9b

Wyodea bifurcata - 9b/10

Ravenea rivularis - 9b

Bismarkia Nobilis - 9b

what are these:

Butiagrus houstonii

Butiagrus nanborand

Butiagrus picophylla

I guess I should have qualified the first post.  This is not the "safe and sound list," this is the "what might be possible list."  I have grown P. Robelini outside here for the last 7 years.  They are in a decent microclimate.    I have also read of others pushing successfully with Bizzies.  I don't know on the middle two in the first section.

Last 3 are cut and paste from what folks have posted.   Hopefully someone will respond.  

More feedback from others please.

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Taylor

This is exactly what I have been needing to see, but just for 8a. Can I get help refining it to that?

Please and Thank you.

Taylor from Va

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NBTX11

You forgot one of the staple 8b/9a palms, Phoenix Canariensis.  Absolutely bullet proof in 9a areas.  Tough as nails, everyone with enough space should have one in 8b/9a.  When you see 50 year old ones in my area you know they are hardy and have been through some cold.

Also the XButyagrus you are referring to is Butia X Syagrus, another good choice.

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_Keith

Here is a newly updated list, slightly cleaned up and with a few errors.  Let's just call it palms known to survive into the low 20s.

A . Mexicana

A. tota

Accopraphe wrightii

Acrcomia media

Allagoptera arenais

Arenga caudata

Arenga engleri

Arenga micrantha

Bismarkia noblis

Brahea aculeata

Brahea armata

Brahea brandeegei

Brahea clara

Brahea edulis

Brahea moorei

Butia archeri

Butia capitata

Butia eriospathea

Butia paraguayensis

Butia x Jubea

Butia X Syagrus

Butia yatai

Butiagrus houstonii

Butiagrus nanborand

Butiagrus picophylla

C.  Radicalis

C. cataphratum

C. mitus

C. radicalis

Caryota "Himalaya

Caryota urens

Chamadorea microspadix

Chamerops humilis

Chamerops humilis "Cerifera"

Chuniophoenix hainansis

Coccothrinax crinata

Copernecia alba

Dypsis decipiens

G. argyrata

Jubaea chilensis

Jubeaopsis caffra

JubeaXbutia hybrid

Jubutia (JxB)

Jubutiagrus

Livistona australis

Livistona benthamii

Livistona chinensis

Livistona chinensis

Livistona decipiens

Livistona drudei

Livistona fulva

Livistona muelleri

Livistona saribus

Nannorhops ritchiana

Phoenix canariensis

Phoenix dactylifera

Phoenix reclinata

Phoenix robelini

Phoenix rupicola

Phoenix sylvestris

Phoenix theophrasti

R. hystrix

Ravenea rivularis

Rhapidophyllum hystrix

Rhapis excela

Rhapis Multifidia

Rhapis subtitlus

Rhopallostylis sapida

Sabal bermeudana

Sabal birmingham

Sabal causerium

Sabal causiarum

Sabal domingensis

Sabal mauritiaformis

Sabal mexicana

Sabal mexicana

Sabal mexicana

Sabal minor

Sabal minor louisiana

Sabal palmetto

Sabal palmetto

Sabal pumos

Sabal Tamaulipas

Sabal uresana

Sabal Xtexensis

Sabal yapa

Serenoa repens

Seronoa repens

Syagrus romanzoffiana

Syagrus romanzoffianum

Trachycarpus "Naga Hills"

Trachycarpus campestris

Trachycarpus fortunei

Trachycarpus latisectus

Trachycarpus martianus

Trachycarpus princeps

Trachycarpus schizophylla

Trachycarpus takil

Trachycarpus wagnerianus

Trithrinax acanthicoma

Trithrinax brasilenis

Trithrinax campestris

Wallichia distyca

Washingtonia filibusta

Washingtonia filifera

Washingtonia robusta

Wyodea bifurcata

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NBTX11

Also, supposedly Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana are hardy to around 24 or so, and some have posted reports of surviving low 20s and recovering.

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_Keith

Thanks, it is added.  Also, I found another cold hardy online list, and got a PM too.   Here is another version, getting refined.

Accopraphe wrightii

Acrcomia media

Acrocomia aculeata v mexicana

Acrocomia totai

Allagoptera arenais

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana

Arenga caudata

Arenga engleri

Arenga micrantha

Bismarkia noblis

Brahea aculeata

Brahea armata

Brahea berlandieri aka B. bella

Brahea brandeegei

Brahea clara

Brahea decumbens*

Brahea dulcis*

Brahea edulis

Brahea moorei

Butia archeri

Butia capitata

Butia capitata odorata

Butia eriospathea

Butia paraguayensis*

Butia purpurascens*

Butia x Jubea

Butia yatay*

Butiagrus houstonii

Butiagrus nabonnandii (mule)

Butiagrus picophylla

Caryota mitus

Caryota "Himalaya "

Caryota urens

Chamaedorea cataractarum

Chamaedorea microspadix

Chamaedorea radicalis

Chamaerops humilis cerifera*

Chamaerops humilis*

Chuniophoenix hainansis

Coccothrinax crinata

Copernecia alba

Dypsis decipiens

Guihaia argyrata

Jubea chilensis**

Jubeaopsis caffra

Livistona australis

Livistona benthamii

Livistona chinensis

Livistona decipiens

Livistona drudei

Livistona fulva

Livistona muelleri

Livistona saribus

Nannorrhops ritchiana 'Silver'**

Nannorrhops ritchiana**

Phoenix canariensis

Phoenix dactylifera

Phoenix loureiroi humilis**

Phoenix loureiroi pedunculata**

Phoenix reclinata

Phoenix robelini

Phoenix rupicola

Phoenix sylvestris

Phoenix theophrasti

Ravenea rivularis

Rhapidophyllum hystrix

Rhapis excela

Rhapis Multifidia

Rhapis subtitlus

Rhopallostylis sapida

Sabal bermeudana

Sabal 'Birmingham'

Sabal 'Brazoria*

Sabal causerium

Sabal domingensis

Sabal etonia

Sabal maritima*

Sabal mauritiaformis

Sabal mexicana

Sabal minor

Sabal minor louisiana

Sabal palmetto

Sabal pumos

Sabal rosei*

Sabal Tamaulipas

Sabal uresana

Sabal Xtexensis

Sabal yapa

Serenoa repens

Syagrus romanzoffiana

Trachycarpus "Naga Hills"

Trachycarpus 'Bulgaria'

Trachycarpus campestris

Trachycarpus fortunei

Trachycarpus latisectus*

Trachycarpus 'manipur'

Trachycarpus martianus*

Trachycarpus 'Naga Hills'

Trachycarpus nanus

Trachycarpus oreophilus*

Trachycarpus princeps*

Trachycarpus schizophylla

Trachycarpus takil

Trachycarpus wagnerianus

Trithrinax acanthicoma

Trithrinax brasiliensis*

Trithrinax campestris

Wallichia distyca

Washingtonia filifera

Washingtonia filifera x robusta**

Washingtonia robusta

Wyodea bifurcata

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mnorell

Hi Keith--

I can give a few recommendations regarding your list:

Phoenix roebelenii cannot handle frost on the leaves, but they can take quite a bit under canopy. My exposed specimens are bronzed after two light freezes and a low of 30.1. I'm shocked, actually.

Add Phoenix acaulis. A great palm that remains basically trunkless and is much hardier than roebelenii. A great beauty in my garden, where I grow them under a cherry-laurel canopy. They never flinch at cold (at least to 22.8F, the minimum they've experienced in my garden) and are a beautiful, glossy green.

Phoenix sylvestris is, I think, a real winner. Fastest growing palm in my garden. One of the 'robusta' type I planted 2-3 years ago as a seedling is now 8' tall and impressive. Supposedly a very fast recovery after freeze damage in the upper teens. On the other hand, P. theophrastii is less than half the size under similar conditions. Canariensis is rather hardy but not bulletproof; and slow recovery from freeze damage.

Cross out Caryota urens. At least anywhere near any structure. If they get hit by a freeze in the low 20s you're out of business and they will topple and cause a swath of destruction. They're notorious for falling over in shallow soils, with wind and/or with illness or ultimate death after flowering. Try mitis in a protected south-facing spot under canopy or building-ovehang. Since it clusters, it will generally return after a freeze knocks it to the ground.

Keep Bismarckia on your list. Mine has proven to be a champ so far. They are highly variable depending on individual genetics, but I bought a $94 HD special in Baton Rouge a year and a half ago, planted it in October 2006 and today it is a gorgeous specimen, growing heartily during warmth and not flinching at low 20s temps. Only minor cosmetic tip-damage on a few leaves. Individuals of this species have been known to rebound from temps in the teens. The hardier individuals appear to be slightly tougher than a standard queen palm.

Rhapis, rhapis, rhapis. Love 'em, and they are so wonderfully hardy!

Try to get ahold of Guihaia argyrata, and let me know when and if you ever are so lucky as to find any!!! They took 9F in Tony Avent's garden in North Carolina without damage. What a beauty this one is!

Add some Attaleas. I'm in the process of testing some of these myself. Do a search on this board for threads about the various species, and check out the rarepalmseeds website's archive for more info on each one. They often stay trunkless for decades and some are apparently leaf-hardy into the mid-20s, with great strength in the subterranean bud and quick recovery.

Forget Wodyetia. Terribly frost-tender. You'll no doubt lose it even under canopy.

Try some of the clustering Syagrus. Some remain subterranean and they may be able to resprout after a bad freeze.

Try Beccariophoenix alfredii. I am. Also Ravenea glauca and a few other species that are hardier than rivularis.

You'll probably want to forget Sabal mauritiiformis, supposedly very tender. Yapa, on the other hand, has a similar effect and is hardier, though still not hardy. But it will stay below ground for some years and you can probably keep it going for a long time keeping that in mind.

You'll no doubt lose a lot of the items on your list in the inevitable 10-degree freeze but I say enjoy everything while they last, and plant lots of Sabal palmetto, mexicana, minor, etc. plus Cham. radicalis, microspadix, and Rhapidophyllum to keep yourself happy when the  killer freeze comes down the pike.

Hope that helps a little!

Michael

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_Keith

Thanks Michael.  I just can't cross off that Foxtail quite yet, if for no other reason than I have one, haha.  

So here is the latest revision.

Accopraphe wrightii

Acrcomia media

Acrocomia aculeata v mexicana

Acrocomia totai

Allagoptera arenais

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana

Arenga caudata

Arenga engleri

Arenga micrantha

Attalea cohune

Beccariophoenix alfredii

Bismarkia noblis

Brahea aculeata

Brahea armata

Brahea berlandieri aka B. bella

Brahea brandeegei

Brahea clara

Brahea decumbens*

Brahea dulcis*

Brahea edulis

Brahea moorei

Brahea nitida

Butia archeri

Butia capitata

Butia capitata odorata

Butia eriospatha

Butia paraguayensis*

Butia purpurascens*

Butia x Jubea

Butia yatay*

Butiagrus houstonii

Butiagrus nabonnandii (mule)

Butiagrus picophylla

Caryota mitus

Caryota maxima "Himalaya "

Caryota urens

Ceroxylon quindiuense

Chamaedorea cataractarum

Chamaedorea microspadix

Chamaedorea radicalis

Chamaerops humilis cerifera*

Chamaerops humilis*

Chuniophoenix hainansis

Coccothrinax crinata

Copernecia alba

Corypha elata

Dypsis decipiens

Dypsis decaryi

Guihaia argyrata

Guihaia grossefibrosa

Hyphaene dichotoma

Howea belmoreana

Juania australis

Jubea chilensis**

Jubeaopsis caffra

Livistona australis

Livistona benthamii

Livistona chinensis

Livistona decipiens

Livistona drudei

Livistona fulva

Livistona muelleri

Livistona rigidus

Livistona saribus

Nannorrhops ritchiana 'Silver'**

Nannorrhops ritchiana**

Parajubaea cocoides

Parajubaea sunkha

Parajubaea torallyi

Phoenix acaulis

Phoenix canariensis

Phoenix dactylifera

Phoenix loureiroi humilis**

Phoenix loureiroi pedunculata**

Phoenix reclinata

Phoenix robelini

Phoenix rupicola

Phoenix sylvestris

Phoenix theophrasti

Plectocomia himilayana

Ravenea glauca

Ravenea rivularis

Rhapidophyllum hystrix

Rhapis excela

Rhapis humilis

Rhapis multifidia

Rhapis subtitlus

Rhopallostylis sapida

Sabal bermeudana

Sabal 'Birmingham'

Sabal blackburuca

Sabal 'Brazoria*

Sabal causerium

Sabal domingensis

Sabal etonia

Sabal maritima*

Sabal mauritiaformis

Sabal mexicana

Sabal minor

Sabal minor louisiana

Sabal palmetto

Sabal pumos

Sabal rosei*

Sabal Tamaulipas

Sabal uresana

Sabal Xtexensis

Sabal yapa

Serenoa repens

Syagrus romanzoffiana

Trachycarpus "Naga Hills"

Trachycarpus 'Bulgaria'

Trachycarpus campestris

Trachycarpus fortunei

Trachycarpus geminisectus

Trachycarpus latisectus*

Trachycarpus 'manipur'

Trachycarpus martianus*

Trachycarpus 'Naga Hills'

Trachycarpus nanus

Trachycarpus oreophilus*

Trachycarpus princeps*

Trachycarpus sikkimensis

Trachycarpus schizophylla

Trachycarpus takil

Trachycarpus wagnerianus

Trithrinax acanthocoma

Trithrinax brasiliensis*

Trithrinax campestris

Trithrinax schizophylla

Wallichia distyca

Washingtonia filifera

Washingtonia filifera x robusta**

Washingtonia robusta

Wyodea bifurcata (very marginal)

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Dave-Vero

Spelling:

Acoelorrhaphe

Bismarckia

Jubaea

Jubaeopsis

Phoenix roebelenii

Rhopalostylis

Wallichia disticha

Wodyetia

Yes, some of the genus names can drive anyone nuts.  The Fairchild guide is a handy reference.  http://palmguide.org/palm_genera.php

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_Keith

Thanks Dave,

Here we go again.

Acoelorrhaphe wrightii

Acrcomia media

Acrocomia aculeata v mexicana

Acrocomia totai

Allagoptera arenais

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana

Arenga caudata

Arenga engleri

Arenga micrantha

Attalea cohune

Beccariophoenix alfredii

Bismarckia noblis

Brahea aculeata

Brahea armata

Brahea berlandieri aka B. bella

Brahea brandeegei

Brahea clara

Brahea decumbens*

Brahea dulcis*

Brahea edulis

Brahea moorei

Brahea nitida

Butia archeri

Butia capitata

Butia capitata odorata

Butia eriospatha

Butia paraguayensis*

Butia purpurascens*

Butia x Jubea

Butia yatay*

Butiagrus houstonii

Butiagrus nabonnandii (mule)

Butiagrus picophylla

Caryota mitus

Caryota maxima "Himalaya "

Caryota urens

Ceroxylon quindiuense

Chamaedorea cataractarum

Chamaedorea microspadix

Chamaedorea radicalis

Chamaerops humilis cerifera*

Chamaerops humilis*

Chuniophoenix hainansis

Coccothrinax crinata

Copernecia alba

Corypha elata

Dypsis decipiens

Dypsis decaryi

Guihaia argyrata

Guihaia grossefibrosa

Hyphaene dichotoma

Howea belmoreana

Juania australis

Jubaea chilensis**

Jubaeopsis caffra

Livistona australis

Livistona benthamii

Livistona chinensis

Livistona decipiens

Livistona drudei

Livistona fulva

Livistona muelleri

Livistona rigidus

Livistona saribus

Nannorrhops ritchiana 'Silver'**

Nannorrhops ritchiana**

Parajubaea cocoides

Parajubaea sunkha

Parajubaea torallyi

Phoenix acaulis

Phoenix canariensis

Phoenix dactylifera

Phoenix loureiroi humilis**

Phoenix loureiroi pedunculata**

Phoenix reclinata

Phoenix roebelenii

Phoenix rupicola

Phoenix sylvestris

Phoenix theophrasti

Plectocomia himilayana

Ravenea glauca

Ravenea rivularis

Rhapidophyllum hystrix

Rhapis excela

Rhapis humilis

Rhapis multifidia

Rhapis subtitlus

Rhopalostylis sapida

Sabal bermeudana

Sabal 'Birmingham'

Sabal blackburuca

Sabal 'Brazoria*

Sabal causerium

Sabal domingensis

Sabal etonia

Sabal maritima*

Sabal mauritiaformis

Sabal mexicana

Sabal minor

Sabal minor louisiana

Sabal palmetto

Sabal pumos

Sabal rosei*

Sabal Tamaulipas

Sabal uresana

Sabal Xtexensis

Sabal yapa

Serenoa repens

Syagrus romanzoffiana

Trachycarpus "Naga Hills"

Trachycarpus 'Bulgaria'

Trachycarpus campestris

Trachycarpus fortunei

Trachycarpus geminisectus

Trachycarpus latisectus*

Trachycarpus 'manipur'

Trachycarpus martianus*

Trachycarpus 'Naga Hills'

Trachycarpus nanus

Trachycarpus oreophilus*

Trachycarpus princeps*

Trachycarpus sikkimensis

Trachycarpus schizophylla

Trachycarpus takil

Trachycarpus wagnerianus

Trithrinax acanthocoma

Trithrinax brasiliensis*

Trithrinax campestris

Trithrinax schizophylla

Wallichia disticha

Washingtonia filifera

Washingtonia filifera x robusta**

Washingtonia robusta

Wodyetia bifurcata (very marginal)

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_Keith

OK, here is the last pass tonight.  Should be getting pretty complete now.  Let's just say these are palms that should make 25 degrees safely, below that is a cr@p shoot.

Acoelorrhaphe wrightii

Acrcomia media

Acrocomia aculeata v mexicana

Acrocomia totai

Allagoptera arenais

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana

Arenga caudata

Arenga engleri

Arenga micrantha

Attalea cohune

Beccariophoenix alfredii

Bismarckia noblis

Brahea aculeata

Brahea armata

Brahea berlandieri aka B. bella

Brahea brandeegei

Brahea clara

Brahea decumbens*

Brahea dulcis*

Brahea edulis

Brahea moorei

Brahea nitida

Butia archeri

Butia arenicola

Butia capitata

Butia capitata odorata

Butia eriospatha

Butia odorata

Butia paraguayensis*

Butia purpurascens*

Butia x Jubea

Butia x Syagrus

Butia yatay*

Caryota maxima "Himalaya "

Caryota mitus

Caryota urens

Ceroxylon quindiuense

Chamaedorea cataractarum

Chamaedorea microspadix

Chamaedorea plumosa

Chamaedorea pochutlensis

Chamaedorea radicalis

Chamaerops humilis cerifera*

Chamaerops humilis*

Chameadorea metalica

Chuniophoenix hainansis

Coccothrinax crinata

Copernecia alba

Corypha elata

Dypsis decaryi

Dypsis decipiens

Euterpe edulis

Guihaia argyrata

Guihaia grossefibrosa

Howea belmoreana

Hyphaene dichotoma

Juania australis

Jubaea chilensis**

Jubaeopsis caffra

Livistona australis

Livistona benthamii

Livistona chinensis

Livistona decipiens

Livistona drudei

Livistona fulva

Livistona muelleri

Livistona nitida

Livistona rigidus

Livistona saribus

Lytocaryum weddellianum

Nannorrhops ritchiana 'Silver'**

Nannorrhops ritchiana**

Parajubaea cocoides

Parajubaea sunkha

Parajubaea torallyi

Phoenix acaulis

Phoenix canariensis

Phoenix dactylifera

Phoenix loureiroi humilis**

Phoenix loureiroi pedunculata**

Phoenix reclinata

Phoenix roebelenii

Phoenix rupicola

Phoenix sylvestris

Phoenix theophrasti

Plectocomia himilayana

Ravenea glauca

Ravenea rivularis

Rhapidophyllum hystrix

Rhapis excela

Rhapis humilis

Rhapis multifidia

Rhapis subtitlus

Rhopalostylis sapida

Sabal bermeudana

Sabal 'Birmingham'

Sabal blackburuca

Sabal 'Brazoria*

Sabal causerium

Sabal domingensis

Sabal etonia

Sabal maritima*

Sabal mauritiaformis

Sabal mexicana

Sabal minor

Sabal minor louisiana

Sabal palmetto

Sabal pumos

Sabal rosei*

Sabal Tamaulipas

Sabal uresana

Sabal Xtexensis

Sabal yapa

Serenoa repens

Serenoa repens ‘Azul'

Syagrus romanzoffiana

Syagrus schizophylla

Trachycarpus "Naga Hills"

Trachycarpus 'Bulgaria'

Trachycarpus campestris

Trachycarpus fortunei

Trachycarpus geminisectus

Trachycarpus latisectus*

Trachycarpus 'manipur'

Trachycarpus martianus*

Trachycarpus 'Naga Hills'

Trachycarpus nanus

Trachycarpus oreophilus*

Trachycarpus princeps*

Trachycarpus schizophylla

Trachycarpus sikkimensis

Trachycarpus takagii

Trachycarpus takil

Trachycarpus wagnerianus

Trithrinax acanthocoma

Trithrinax brasiliensis*

Trithrinax campestris

Trithrinax schizophylla

Wallichia disticha

Washingtonia filifera

Washingtonia filifera x robusta**

Washingtonia robusta

Wodyetia bifurcata (very marginal)

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NBTX11

(mnorell @ Dec. 30 2007,01:03)

QUOTE
Canariensis is rather hardy but not bulletproof; and slow recovery from freeze damage.

Michael, I completely disagree with this statement.  (Sorry).  Canariensis are completely 100% bonafide hardy in zone 9a.  They may be slow to recover in a bad freeze, but they can not be killed in zone 9a.

My reasons, we have hundreds/thousands of them around the San Antonio area 50-70 years old and they made it through the 1989 freeze of around 6F or whatever it was.  Let's just say they can definitely handle single digits F, as it definitely got below 10F in the 80s freezes.  That is about as hardy as you can get for any palm this side of Trachycarpus.

For example, here are a couple near my house in New Braunfels...

Palm6.jpg

CIDP5.jpg

CIDP4.jpg

CIDP3.jpg

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_Keith

(syersj @ Dec. 30 2007,11:14)

QUOTE

(mnorell @ Dec. 30 2007,01:03)

QUOTE
Canariensis is rather hardy but not bulletproof; and slow recovery from freeze damage.

Michael, I completely disagree with this statement.  (Sorry).  Canariensis are completely 100% bonafide hardy in zone 9a.  They may be slow to recover in a bad freeze, but they can not be killed in zone 9a.

My reasons, we have hundreds/thousands of them around the San Antonio area 50-70 years old and they made it through the 1989 freeze of around 6F or whatever it was.  Let's just say they can definitely handle single digits F, as it definitely got below 10F in the 80s freezes.  That is about as hardy as you can get for any palm this side of Trachycarpus.

For example, here are a couple near my house in New Braunfels...

Palm6.jpg

CIDP5.jpg

CIDP4.jpg

CIDP3.jpg

Canaries are indeed very hardy.  Solid Zone 9a as we have many here well over 20, maybe 30 years old.  I have also seen many 10 to 20 years old specimens in Baton Rouge which is a solid Zone 8a.   There have always been large palms in the 27 acre gardens at the State Capital there as well.  I believe a group of CIDPs were planted there in the 70s.

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Pivi

I think that wodyetia, ravanea rivularis, phoenix roebelenii, phoenix reclinata, archontophoenix cunninghamiana cannot grow in your climate.

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edbrown_3

Most of the mispellings are mine.  I have a few Butia Syagrus hybrids

Butia x picophylla --- B. capitata x S. picophylla

Butiagrus houstonii-- Is a name I am giving the B. capitata x S. coronata hybrids--after a family name .

A good portion of the list has not been tested below 21F ( zone 9a) that is what I meant "if the climate holds out"-----If any one had asked me what would grow in zone 8/9a about 5 years ago I would have provided a list of 25 palms not 75 but if we this warm period persists we might have another 20 year window where palms like the D. decaryii, and others might get large enough to become trunked palms.

That being said... keep up the enthusiasum we need it.

Best regards,

Ed Brown

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paulgila

keith i was wondering what the first 2 palms were in the list

at the top of the thread?"A.mexicana" & "A.tota".yer list seems to be in alphabetical order & the only genus before

acoelorraphe is acanthophoenix(alphabetically speaking).just curious :)

arenga caudata is listed as zone 10 & 11 in the "encylopedia of cultivated palms" but adds that "protected specimens survive in 9b."

i see chameadorea microspadix is on yer list,that is an excellent choice.

best of luck.

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mnorell

It's not that I don't think P. canariensis can't be grown for a significant length of time in 9a areas like Baton Rouge and SW Louisiana, but by saying they're not bulletproof, I mean they will with good probability be killed by a 3-day, single-digit wet freeze. Certainly a decent percentage of palms have not survived these killer freezes, even if some survived. I have a feeling sylvestris is probably a little less hardy than canariensis, but my recommendation for that palm was because of that species' faster growth rate and by many accounts, its much faster recovery speed after heavy freeze damage.

I personally have never seen any P. canariensis in Baton Rouge that look to be older than 20 years or so. Most I've seen are significantly younger, certainly post '89. I will go check out the Capitol, though, to see the mature specimens there. It would be great indeed to see long-term survivors here. Perhaps some people can post here how many 50-year-old P. canariensis, sylvestris and dactylifera exist in the 9a Gulf States, as I was very much under the impression that, aside from beachside plantings, really only New Orleans and perhaps Jacksonville (both of which are really 9b) can claim long-term hardiness for P. canariensis without close proximity to the ocean. (BTW, Keith, Baton Rouge is zone 9a, and the downtown urban heat-island is more like a 9a/9b fringe; not 8a, which I think was a typo).

I suspect also that San Antonio, though it's certainly a 9a, benefits in that it sits on the west side of the transitional boundary of the humid zone, and has a much drier clime overall than S. Louisiana and the Gulf Coast. Therefore S.A.'s freezes, though perhaps more severe (all-time low of 0F, which would generally kill just about any arborescent palm except the hardiest Sabals and perhaps some W. filifera) are not as dangerous as in areas to the east. It becomes problematic in the humid south with 60 inches of annual rainfall and higher  humidity where a long, wet freeze and the subsequent fungal invasions, etc. generally spell doom in the long term.

My attitude is plant whatever you like, but just be prepared to lose your babies and also to deal with removing what may be a huge PITA someday. If we don't stretch those limits we'll never discover how hardy species (and individuals, with their varying genetics) really are. Of course P. canariensis isn't that much of a stretch, but it can be a big old monster to remove if it does die!

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osideterry

Howea belmoreana? H. forsteriana is a lot easier to find, and faster growing. Mine survived 25-26F but are coming back real slow. Just now showing good leaves from last Winter. It and the Euterpe are pretty borderline for 9a.

If you give the Foxtail real winter protection during freezes, it might like the rest of your year enough to actually grow. I gave up on them here because they tend to lose more leaves a year than they grow.

I'd add Sabal "riverside" to your list. It's possibly the fastest Sabal, and hardy to 15F by some guides.

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NBTX11

(mnorell @ Dec. 30 2007,19:14)

QUOTE
It's not that I don't think P. canariensis can't be grown for a significant length of time in 9a areas like Baton Rouge and SW Louisiana, but by saying they're not bulletproof, I mean they will with good probability be killed by a 3-day, single-digit wet freeze. Certainly a decent percentage of palms have not survived these killer freezes, even if some survived. I have a feeling sylvestris is probably a little less hardy than canariensis, but my recommendation for that palm was because of that species' faster growth rate and by many accounts, its much faster recovery speed after heavy freeze damage.

I personally have never seen any P. canariensis in Baton Rouge that look to be older than 20 years or so. Most I've seen are significantly younger, certainly post '89. I will go check out the Capitol, though, to see the mature specimens there. It would be great indeed to see long-term survivors here. Perhaps some people can post here how many 50-year-old P. canariensis, sylvestris and dactylifera exist in the 9a Gulf States, as I was very much under the impression that, aside from beachside plantings, really only New Orleans and perhaps Jacksonville (both of which are really 9b) can claim long-term hardiness for P. canariensis without close proximity to the ocean. (BTW, Keith, Baton Rouge is zone 9a, and the downtown urban heat-island is more like a 9a/9b fringe; not 8a, which I think was a typo).

I suspect also that San Antonio, though it's certainly a 9a, benefits in that it sits on the west side of the transitional boundary of the humid zone, and has a much drier clime overall than S. Louisiana and the Gulf Coast. Therefore S.A.'s freezes, though perhaps more severe (all-time low of 0F, which would generally kill just about any arborescent palm except the hardiest Sabals and perhaps some W. filifera) are not as dangerous as in areas to the east. It becomes problematic in the humid south with 60 inches of annual rainfall and higher  humidity where a long, wet freeze and the subsequent fungal invasions, etc. generally spell doom in the long term.

My attitude is plant whatever you like, but just be prepared to lose your babies and also to deal with removing what may be a huge PITA someday. If we don't stretch those limits we'll never discover how hardy species (and individuals, with their varying genetics) really are. Of course P. canariensis isn't that much of a stretch, but it can be a big old monster to remove if it does die!

Michael, I can only go on what I see around San Antonio.  I can't speak for B.R.  But San Antonio is a low 9a long term (20-22F), lately mid level zone 9 (23-27F) as everyone has been warmer lately.

But, there are hundreds (thousands?) of mature canariensis in the greater San Antonio area.  Someone mentioned in another thread there aren't that many long term survivors in Austin, so maybe Austin is the dividing line for this species.

For whatever reason, maybe it is the drier cold of Texas, but they are completely hardy in SA, so I assumed they would be in areas like BR, and other areas within 50 -75 miles of the gulf coast.

W. Filifera are also totally hardy here as there are 60-80 year old huge Filiferas around town.  We had single digit temps in the 80s, and they came through fine.  We also have some long term W. Robusta, and Washingtonia Hybrid survivors.  Again, maybe it's the wetter gulf coast cold that is more harmful in your area, I'm not sure.  But there are most definitely pre-1983/89 Canariensis in this area of TX.  Some of the Houston folks can attest there are lots of mature pre 80s Canariensis around Houston too.

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ruskinPalms

Well, if you have Wodyetia bifurcata on that list you may as well add Roystonea regia :)

R. regia is probably a little tougher overall than W. bifurcata given the big trunk they form. Although, a real deal full grown W. bifurcata has a pretty big trunk believe it or not so if could plant a big one you might have a chance. I think anything below 30F causes foliar damage to W. bifurcata and anything below 25F is likely lethal. But, duration of freeze is important too. A quick one night radiational freeze down to 25F then a rapid warm up when the sun comes up may not kill W. bifurcata out right as long as there is not a prolonged sub freezing event. Think that the freezing hour system like what as suggested in the weather forum, or something else like it that will quantify the "freeze" that a palm exeriences prior to its final demise would be a great thing to include when posting in the freeze forum. Probably need some sort of weather station that logs the temps throughout the night to be able to do that though.

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Walter John

I hate zone numbers, so numerical.

Happy new year everyone

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KatyTX

I was a teen living in Houston back in the 80's - already having a fondness for palms & other tropical plants.  I recall checking the status of the various palms along the bus routes to school & around my neighborhood.

As I recall, 1983 (11F low, 105 hrs < 32F) was a lot harder on the palms than 1989 (7F low, 110 hrs < 32F) .  W.robusta was the biggest casualty - almost all of them were killed outright in 1983.  I don't recall any queens being planted in this area at that time, but I'm sure any of them would have been toast.  The area's p.canariensis sustained 80%+ defoliation, but I only remember 1 of them not coming back (out of the hundreds I had seen - most are still growing today).  W.filifera were partially defoliated, but all survived.  None of the sabals (minor, palmetto, mexicana)  sustained any damage.  P.canariensis is a solid 9a (and perhaps 8b) on the gulf coast.

Back to Keith's topic...8b/9a palms for "average winters" in So.LA:  

W.bifurcata should be considered almost an annual.  You might get 3 or 4 years out of one - but they are so cheap nowadays...why not?  I keep planting the darned things myself, hoping to get more than 1 winter out of them.  There are a few specimens growing in my area which are at least 3 years in the ground (no winter protection).  They are slow to rebound from defoliation.

I would definitely keep r.rivularis on the list - they get a little ratty in the cold, but they seem to keep coming back.  These seem to be planted everywhere now.  They also fall into the "cheap - why not" category.

I think a.cunninghamiana is a good gamble in 9a. Cheap enough & very nice when they get big. There's a restaurant near my house that has several growing in full, northern exposure (no protection at all).  They are 12-15 feet tall triples planted 5+ years ago and look fantastic.  Minimal damage at 26F.

I've also seen a few r.regia (royals) growing around here.  Maybe a little less hardy than a.cunninghamiana, but if the price is right...and you have the acreage...

I never see Rhapis used in landscapes this far north of the RGV. I have a few planted out. We'll see what happens. They may just be too expensive to gain acceptance.

I am yet to see a Caryota survive here.  My c.mitis had its butt kicked by 28F last winter.  I dug it up and put it back in a pot.  It's still alive, but begging the next freeze to put it out of its misery.

Ditto on d.decaryi.  I wouldn’t put much $$$ on one of these lasting in the ground in 8b/9a.

I planted several Arenga engleri this year.  I don't plan on protecting them during the 29F expected tomorrow night.  We'll see...

The problem with many on this list is availability.   The big box stores (and even specialty nurseries) just don't have much variety.  I'm not going to test the hardiness of a Howea or Dypsis that is difficult (and $$$) to replace.  You can get just about anything on the internet - but most of these are seedlings that won't be landscape ready for many years.  And then..would I want to test them in my landscape after I have so many years invested...?

It's a good list so far.   :cool:

Matt

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freakypalmguy

(pohonkelapa @ Dec. 30 2007,16:43)

QUOTE
keith i was wondering what the first 2 palms were in the list

Acrocomia. If you look at the last version of the list in this thread it has the full names.

This is a great list for a guy like myself, thanks for putting it together.

Matt

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freakypalmguy

Also, what about Ravenea xerophila ? I think it is more cold hardy than rivularis??

Matt

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_Keith

OK, I'll clean up/update the list later today, and start adding some footnotes, too.  I will also start it on a new chain to make it easier to keep up with.  Thanks everyone.  I knew this would be a controversial one, but well worth it too, for folks like me.

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monkeyranch

My hillside in the N. California Sierra Foothills is a 9a while at the bottom of the hill (150' below) is probably 8b.  Our average winter temps. are decidedly cooler than Louisiana but with similar extreme minimums.  Good for hardening off citrus, etc. for the winter but palms do better with your brief cold intrusions and quick return to warmth.  It can be below 50 deg. F and rainy for weeks here.  With that said I am testing almost all of those on your last list with the addition of the following:

       Allagopteria leucocalyx

       A. campestris

       Attalea dubia (the hardiest and most agreeable size)

       Bactris setosa

       Brahea dulcis 'Blue'

       B.sarukhanii

       B.sp. 'Super Silver'

       Butia microspadix

       B. new subterranean species detailed in Palms Journal

       Caryota obtusa (India Form)

       C. ochlandra (hardier than C. urens)

       C. sp. 'Black(Trunk)'

       C. sp. 'Mystery Cluster'

       Ceroxylon parvifrons (with attention to heat)

       C. vogelianum

       Copernicia prunifera (inexplainably hardy)

       Hyphaene coriacea

       Livistona boninensis( Syn. L. chin. ssp. subglossa)

       L. carinensis

       Nannorhops ritch. 'Iran Silver' and 'Kashmir'

       Ravennea robustior

       Sabal uresana x mexicana

       S. 'Riverside'

       Syagrus flexuosa

       S. harleyi

       Wallichia caryotoides

       W. densiflora

These are probably possible and worth the risk:

      Coccothrinax argentata (provinence important)

      Euterpe edulis (ranges into Santa Catarina S. Brazil)

      Syagrus campicola

      S. comosa

      S. duartei

      S. glaucescens

      S. pleioclada

      Thrinax morrisii

Probably not these on your list:

      Brahea brandegeeii

      Dypsis decaryi ( I know, but they are so nice why not try)

     Ravennea rivularis

Good luck, 8b is the new frontier. Here in Cali ever increasing population is moving beyond the flatlands and south and up higher into the foothills.

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ghar41

(freakypalmguy @ Dec. 31 2007,10:57)

QUOTE
Also, what about Ravenea xerophila ? I think it is more cold hardy than rivularis??

Matt

I agree....my R xerophila's are quite small and they sailed through 24.9 F last year.

R rivularis is still quite an interesting possibility though.  I have a nieghbor who pays very little attention to his, planted out in the middle of his yard, and it survived the low 20's although it was partially defoliated.  I am finding mine have outrageous nutrient demands and when grown properly is surprisingly hardy.

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NBTX11

(KatyTX @ Dec. 31 2007,09:20)

QUOTE
P.canariensis is a solid 9a (and perhaps 8b) on the gulf coast.

This is what I have been trying to say...There are countless pre 1980s Phoenix Canariensis around San Antonio and Houston, and areas that are barely zone 9a...I've seen many, many mature ones, guess I'll need to post more pics...they aren't iffy at all here, very hardy.

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Tad

look at all of the ones in carizo springs and laredo,eagle pass prolly has a few. cidps and dacts

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NBTX11

Aren't there tons of P Dacts around Carizzo Springs where someone tried going into the date palm business.  Remember someone posting a pic and seeing tons of P Dacts all over.

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Tad

the coachella valley  ca. date palm business has its roots in carrizo springs Tx, who gottem from the usda experiment station in Weslaco Texas, which is a bad ass town to live in :) if your in the palm tree business !!

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NBTX11

I wish San Antonio was zone 10a like the valley.

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Tad

well, wish in one hand spit in the other, hey as a trade off tho you guys have schilo's, grumpys,and all the cool stuff that we just dont have!! Weslaco is getting a starbucks tho, already started construction, we are so in the 21st century now!!

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edbrown_3

The Canaries and edible dates survived all the freezes of the 80's here in Jax,  I thought they were all dead but they came back in June.  Many other palms like queens and more tropical were killed.

Arenga engleri < Rhapis and d accoeloraphe were killed to ground but came back. They lose there canes at a few degrees below 20F. but come back.  

I tried many species of Syagrus and gave up on them in 90s. I had alot of interest in S. glaucescens, S. flexuosa, duarei etc. -- I visited Diamintina 3x to see these palms but it is still tropical you see coconuts in the towns near by. I grew some S. glaucescns up to 3 gallons and planted them out..  They were killed by a freeze in the mid 20's .  This totally reversed my thinkng on a cold hardy syagrus.

So I startd seriously exploring hybrids.

I havent totally given up on Syagrus. I am going to give S. yungangensis a try.  I have a few plants that I will test -- the climate is a bit warmer than it was in the 80's and 90's when I had my failures.

Good luck and best regards,

Ed

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M@ximus

(edbrown_3 @ Jan. 01 2008,18:03)

QUOTE
The Canaries and edible dates survived all the freezes of the 80's here in Jax,  I thought they were all dead but they came back in June.  Many other palms like queens and more tropical were killed.

Arenga engleri < Rhapis and d accoeloraphe were killed to ground but came back. They lose there canes at a few degrees below 20F. but come back.  

I tried many species of Syagrus and gave up on them in 90s. I had alot of interest in S. glaucescens, S. flexuosa, duarei etc. -- I visited Diamintina 3x to see these palms but it is still tropical you see coconuts in the towns near by. I grew some S. glaucescns up to 3 gallons and planted them out..  They were killed by a freeze in the mid 20's .  This totally reversed my thinkng on a cold hardy syagrus.

So I startd seriously exploring hybrids.

I havent totally given up on Syagrus. I am going to give S. yungangensis a try.  I have a few plants that I will test -- the climate is a bit warmer than it was in the 80's and 90's when I had my failures.

Good luck and best regards,

Ed

Ciao  Ed!!

Here  in Rome I  have  tried  Syagrus  Youngasensis  in the  ground  this  winter  for  first time

Naturally  we  had  the  bad  Dicember   from  several  years,  with temperature  that  drop  at  -6c,  and  a week  belowe  zero ( -2/3c) with  cold  wind

The  Palm is  still  alive,  but  for  be  sure,  I  gave  it some  protection

My    archontophoenix  alexandrae, and  Wodetya , had  serious  demage  (with  protection,)  Ravenea  Rivularis seems  suffering  less(  also  protected)

Acoelorraphe  ,  Parajubaea  ( except  Cocoides  that  Had  serious  leaves  demages) Just  little  leaves demages,  with  no  protection

For Canariensis, Butia, Chamaerops, Traky, and  washingtonia(  that  usually  has  leaves  demages)  Is  like  to  be  on  the  beach !!!

And  Weather  forecast  bring  a  terrific  Jenuary

M@x

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richtrav

Oh man, that list is extremely optimistic for someone in an 8b/9a climate.

But about the dates, yes they did evaluate P. dactylifera cultivars at the Carrizo Springs Experiment Station but they never took off commercially, there are still a number left in town though. There were even smalltime commercial citrus orchards up there as recently as the mid-90s and there are people that still have backyard orchards there. The dryness out there definitely helps

In San Antonio most of the dactylifera were killed to the ground in the '80s but a number survived, and most of the canariensis survived but a few very old ones croaked (also very small palms - I had a few small ones that were killed in the February '89 freeze). Both were defoliated about 5 or 6 times between '82 and '90.

There were only a handful of large canariensis left standing in Austin after the '80s, notably the one at the Palm School downtown. It started to come back after '89 but died that summer.

Washingtonia robusta were pretty much taken out in SA during '83 (but not '89), but there was a beautiful old planting at a long defunct hotel in downtown SA near the Mexican consulate that all survived, it was the best example of the survivors. Most robusta that survived '83 in SA now have considerable trunk scarring. The streets around San Antonio College used to be lined with them and about 4 are still left. Now the hybrids (if that's what they are) are another matter, they generally survived.

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NBTX11

Richtrav, from what I have seen downtown SA, many of the Hybrids that survived are very difficult to tell apart from pure Robusta.  Lots of tall slender Washingtonia downtown.  Either that or there was a decent # of Robusta that survived.  I haven't inspected them up close, but have seen them driving by.

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