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Coconut Growing Farthest From Equator

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James West

Hi Nick1985

The average highs during Sydney's last winter [2017] were June: 18.2; July: 19.1; Aug: 19.5. Not bad and definitely warmer than Malaga. Only about 2c below the long term average for Surfers Paradise. We seem to be going through a warm cycle here, so it's good time to plant. I believe you're on the Northern beaches somewhere. I remember years ago a woman at Dee Why with a date palm - full crop of dates - right next to the beach. But the "peninsular" must be the best place for tropicals - anywhere from Newport to Palm Beach. Good luck.

 

 

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Alicante
1 hour ago, Nick1985 said:

But still Warmer winters than Malaga. I can tell you that where I live in Sydney, the winters are warmer than in the CBD. I also looked at Malaga’s weather this week in late winter. You have temps well below sydneys average. Comparing Sydney to southern turkey is in accurate as we don’t get anywhere near the extreme lows they get which would kill tropical plants. We have never seen a freezing temperature in the history of records. 

9547028C-DB5A-45FB-855C-67B5CDC21E18.png

Why are you comparing Málaga with Sydney? I never said Málaga had warmer winters, I didn't even mention Sydney unless when I said Funchal is warmer to the guy affirming that Sydney is as warm as Funchal/Madeira.

Sydney is at -34ºS and Málaga at 37ºN, it's natural to be warmer. Btw the 2nd week of February has been one of the coldest in the history of Málaga, but still that data and climate chart are from the airport. The city and the coastline are about 1ºC warmer on winters, just as Sydney or any other city. AEMET offers 3 stations in Málaga (airport, observatory and port) most times the airport is the coldest one, and during many times it has lows even up to 2ºC lower than the port, and about 1ºC than the observatory. 

 

 

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Alicante
35 minutes ago, James West said:

Hi Nick1985

The average highs during Sydney's last winter [2017] were June: 18.2; July: 19.1; Aug: 19.5. Not bad and definitely warmer than Malaga. Only about 2c below the long term average for Surfers Paradise. We seem to be going through a warm cycle here, so it's good time to plant. I believe you're on the Northern beaches somewhere. I remember years ago a woman at Dee Why with a date palm - full crop of dates - right next to the beach. But the "peninsular" must be the best place for tropicals - anywhere from Newport to Palm Beach. Good luck.

 

 

Take account that it's always better to use long term averages. That's why I was saying I prefer Perth although it's at 32ºS, which is closer to the Equator.

Málaga for example has high averages of 17.5ºC, 16.8ºC and 17.7ºC during winters (1981-2010) yet in 2017 were 17.8ºC, 17.0ºC and 18.2ºC or in 2016 17.5ºC, 19.6ºC and 19.2ºC... in 2015: 19.7ºC, 17.6ºC and 17ºC. That's the airport, not the city itself which is warmer. Source. Long term avgs fit better I think.

I know Sydney has warmer winters, I never compared Málaga with Sydney! I'm just saying there are a couple of coconuts which survived 3 winters in a row in Málaga at 37ºN at this is their 4th one, they also grow, not only survive. So 37ºN is naturally further than 34ºS. Yes, I agree in Sydney they can survive longer.

Edited by Alicante

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Nick1985
4 hours ago, Alicante said:

Take account that it's always better to use long term averages. That's why I was saying I prefer Perth although it's at 32ºS, which is closer to the Equator.

Málaga for example has high averages of 17.5ºC, 16.8ºC and 17.7ºC during winters (1981-2010) yet in 2017 were 17.8ºC, 17.0ºC and 18.2ºC or in 2016 17.5ºC, 19.6ºC and 19.2ºC... in 2015: 19.7ºC, 17.6ºC and 17ºC. That's the airport, not the city itself which is warmer. Source. Long term avgs fit better I think.

I know Sydney has warmer winters, I never compared Málaga with Sydney! I'm just saying there are a couple of coconuts which survived 3 winters in a row in Málaga at 37ºN at this is their 4th one, they also grow, not only survive. So 37ºN is naturally further than 34ºS. Yes, I agree in Sydney they can survive longer.

I didn't mean to offend you, I just didn't really agree with the comparisons. I live in Sydney, while not ideal for coconuts I think it could be a stretch. Especially if they're just moved out of the cold on the particular cold days. If in the South of Turkey they'd die straight away, yes they get some nice days but they can get many days without going above 10c. Sydney hardly ever goes below a max of 15c. But mostly it's around 17-22c. I only compared Malaga as if it could survive there, I believe it could survive in Sydney. 

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Cluster

I am growing pineapple in Lisbon in my flat "backyard, back stairs of the building to be more precise" since August, it has always been outside in a pot mostly in shade. Since it is in a type of balcony and has concrete and buildings surrounding it, it probably has lows of 10 in January, it even managed perfectly in this cooler February. I do not consider this anything but a very specific mini micro climate, just for the fun of it I will even try a coconut next winter, maybe try to give it a bit more sun.  If I lived in the Azores and had a balcony or a place with concrete around I would try to beat the record, because Azores average mean temperatures are above Málaga for 4 months and Sydney for 3 months. Even Corvo Island above 39 latitude manages these feats. 

This is an example of Santa Maria Island airport station which is at 100 m elevation (it will be warmer in lower elevations), unlike Sidney station at 39 m and Málaga at 5 m  and it is for the period of 91-90, if you were to add a realistic 0.7 C (highs and lows or simply to the average) to convert it to the 81-2010 averages like the ones shown before, the difference would be bigger. 

D3B4Bt0.png

Azores is also less affected by extreme cool weather than Málaga and Sydney.

In any case I think these may be a low-medium term success as even with balcony climate a long cooler winter, might do them. A more realistic attempt is being done at the botanical gardens in Sydney where we will see how they fair for years in the ground.

 

 

Edited by Cluster

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Alicante

It has been talked before, a coconut won't stand one single winter in the Azores. Mean temperatures are not all.

Azores has poor temps from December to May, even if it's less affected by cool weather, it's neither afected by warm one. The seasonal lag is tremendous, it's not like it's cool but it is too cool for a coconut with these highs. Both Málaga and Sydney can have a couple warmer winter months with high averages above +19°C, just as they had these past years. In Azores 2 months a year, have record highs barely touching 20°C. By late winter 19-20 are not normal in Azores, but 17, barely 1C more than in January.

This combined with the very low sun hours Azores has... but even less chance for a coconut in Lisboa, which is directly not an option imho. Lisboa has an average high of 14.8C during January and 15.3C during December. Remember lows aren't all, but highs are more important for coconuts, see the ones near La Quinta, CA or Durban. Pineapples grow easily in balconies in Valencia, 39°N. I remember we had this talk before, that's not an indicator imho. Pots have warmer soil temps than the ground itself. Azores besides is a better option to grow high altitude tropical palms which require higher lows and cooler summers.

Edited by Alicante

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Cluster

I do not agree with you. Soil average temperatures are probably as important, La Quinta soil temperatures are way warmer than south Spain, the problem with La Quinta is the occasional super freeze, not their normal or even slightly cooler winters. Santa Maria low lands will have highs of 17+ (like Sydney) with lows of 12 in coolest month, the only problem is that it does not warm up much as you know, still during 4 or 5 Months Santa Maria soils will be warmer than Málaga.

Unlike Valencia Azores grow pineapples in the ground above 39 if needed. If Isabel manages to keep a coconut in a balcony I see no reasons for someone in the warmest region of Azores to not give it a chance in similar mini micro conditions. I can't say it would work, but I think if we had more people from the Azores on the forum, it would be a nice experiment. In any case I believe it has a chance, their native soil is also volcanic.

 

Edited by Cluster
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Alicante
6 hours ago, Nick1985 said:

I didn't mean to offend you, I just didn't really agree with the comparisons. I live in Sydney, while not ideal for coconuts I think it could be a stretch. Especially if they're just moved out of the cold on the particular cold days. If in the South of Turkey they'd die straight away, yes they get some nice days but they can get many days without going above 10c. Sydney hardly ever goes below a max of 15c. But mostly it's around 17-22c. I only compared Malaga as if it could survive there, I believe it could survive in Sydney. 

Oh ok, I think you switched quotes before, as I never compared no place with Sydney. :D 

I agree with that, it should live in Sydney too, but a long term one probably is just a dream at the moment. That's why I was saying Perth sounds more realistic about a long term one, as it's warmer in winter.

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Alicante
22 minutes ago, Cluster said:

I do not agree with you. Soil average temperatures are probably as important, La Quinta soil temperatures are way warmer than south Spain, the problem with La Quinta is the occasional super freeze, not their normal or even slightly cooler winters. Santa Maria low lands will have highs of 17+ (like Sydney) with lows of 12 in coolest month, the only problem is that it does not warm up much as you know, still during 4 or 5 Months Santa Maria soils will be warmer than Málaga.

Unlike Valencia Azores grow pineapples in the ground above 39 if needed. If Isabel manages to keep a coconut in a balcony I see no reasons for someone in the warmest region of Azores to not give it a chance in similar mini micro conditions. I can't say it would work, but I think if we had more people from the Azores on the forum, it would be a nice experiment. In any case I believe it has a chance, their native soil is also volcanic.

 

Yes, soil temps play a part but you said lows before, refering to these warmer lows Azores has. Azores are way too stable and mild, I don't think in 20 years it warmed up that much. Santa Maria is the warmest spot in Azores and it's still too weak for coconuts, and that considering that Santa Maria is as warm as you can get there. Also the winter sunshine hours are very low as well. 

About the pineapples at 39°N in Azores i'm kinda skeptic about that, do you have visual proofs? It's not like pineapples like 14-15C highs 3-4 months a year and the lack of real summers. 

Coconuts in Málaga don't have even a medium term chance, that's assumed. I don't know why this constant comparison with Málaga, there are many other factors too. As you know, we didn't manage yet to find Roystoneas in the Azores, yet in Málaga you can find Caribbean looking ones. I bet a tropical highland palm would do it much better in Santa Maria for instance. The climates are different, just saying, so it's not like if it's a good option to compare them!

Málaga and that zone of Spain have almost twice winter sun and a lot warmer summers, as well as much warmer springs (highs) meanwhile Azores are way too mild and stable. If something grows in southern Spain it's not automatically like it will grow in Santa Maria, same backwards. And yes Santa Maria has warmer winter means, of course. :)

Edited by Alicante

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Cluster

A forum member posted a picture of one of their farms growing pineapple outdoors when I asked if they could and he posted the picture. I do not know where I asked that. Corvo is as Warm as the other islands by the way. The thing is Santa Maria average temperatures at 100 m elevation are warmer and those are a combination of lows and highs. The highs will be around 17 in the coolest month but their lows are helping. Needs people to test out:P I can't say it would work, but in theory it has a chance because for 3 or more months it is warmer than the places we are discussing here in their respective coldest months in terms of mean temperatures and it is more stable. The sun equation is also a factor of course, still give them volcanic sand and water won't be much of an issue. I know of coconuts on Madeira growing almost in full shade.

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Anamurlu

Australia

1.PNG

Turkey

2.PNG

Are the data correct? I wonder if this platform is reliable.

Edited by Anamurlu

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Kenarr09
3 hours ago, Anamurlu said:

Australia

1.PNG

Turkey

2.PNG

Are the data correct? I wonder if this platform is reliable.

Do you live in Almaya Cem?

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Nick1985

I would be worried about the lack of warm weather in the Azores. The lows certainly are high enough but the highs not. Especially as I believe coconuts will only really stand 1-2 months with max temps below 20. Historically I don’t think sydney could do it. But average high temps over winter for the last decade have been around 19-20 so that’s the only reason I am trying. I think if I left it out on the odd day out high is 14-15 it wouldn’t survive. Looking at Europe that’s quite a common occurance. 

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Nick1985

We have coconut palms 3 hours north of Sydney. Here is climate averages. Not far off sydney. 

 

Three hours north they’re not as effected by the cold fronts. So a cold day may only have a high of 17. That is the difference in my opinion. 

4D03A55B-5D5B-47B8-990A-B6220439D5E0.jpeg

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Nick1985
6 hours ago, Cluster said:

I am growing pineapple in Lisbon in my flat "backyard, back stairs of the building to be more precise" since August, it has always been outside in a pot mostly in shade. Since it is in a type of balcony and has concrete and buildings surrounding it, it probably has lows of 10 in January, it even managed perfectly in this cooler February. I do not consider this anything but a very specific mini micro climate, just for the fun of it I will even try a coconut next winter, maybe try to give it a bit more sun.  If I lived in the Azores and had a balcony or a place with concrete around I would try to beat the record, because Azores average mean temperatures are above Málaga for 4 months and Sydney for 3 months. Even Corvo Island above 39 latitude manages these feats. 

This is an example of Santa Maria Island airport station which is at 100 m elevation (it will be warmer in lower elevations), unlike Sidney station at 39 m and Málaga at 5 m  and it is for the period of 91-90, if you were to add a realistic 0.7 C (highs and lows or simply to the average) to convert it to the 81-2010 averages like the ones shown before, the difference would be bigger. 

D3B4Bt0.png

Azores is also less affected by extreme cool weather than Málaga and Sydney.

In any case I think these may be a low-medium term success as even with balcony climate a long cooler winter, might do them. A more realistic attempt is being done at the botanical gardens in Sydney where we will see how they fair for years in the ground.

 

 

Hi Cluster

 

i don’t hold much hope for these ones. They’re Malay dwarfs so not very hardy. However they lasted last winter (just) after being planted in May (more or less winter.) it’s been a humid warm summer so hopefully they will make it through the coming winter. 

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James West

Hi Nick1985. As you say, Sydney has been going through mild winters for a number of years. Last winter there were only a few days that didn't reach 16c. Winter highs averaging about 19c. However, we're not getting much rain and they are not watering those Malay Dwarfs. They should give them a quick drink on these hot humid days, with some water down the crown. The healthiest one now has six fronds. I'm sure with a bit of TLC they should handle the coming winter in view of the fact they were transplanted at the worst possible time last year. As far as the Azores or Turkey are concerned - little chance. I think 34 degrees from the equator is pushing the envelope about as far as it can stretch. . .

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James West

+Nick1985

I don't think I've posted this previously - a snap from about a month ago: 

Cocos2.jpg

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Nick1985
7 minutes ago, James West said:

+Nick1985

I don't think I've posted this previously - a snap from about a month ago: 

Cocos2.jpg

Awesome James

i was in there for the cinema just last week. I wish I’d gone to check them out. I will before winter. 

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Cluster

Hello Nick

Even Madeira can go as low as 15 c high in the worst record cold days and cocos are hardy there. This year (coldest February(February is the coldest month there) I have seen in the last years) we had a day with 16.5 high and 10.9 low for Funchal observatory station(still warmer than average temp for Sydney in 80-2010), a little warmer in lower elevations. I have searched the official data for Sydney and they have records of highs below 10 C, for example 9.6 in 1984. Brisbane which is way further north where the station has been active since only 1999 has already seen highs of only 12. So realistic speaking Sydney and north Sydney will see temps way below 15 C at some point and probably for more than one or two days. If that is enough or not, to kill coconuts, I am not sure, Florida has seen such days as well and they thrive. Sydney official station for 81-2010 only gives 17.4 C to Sydney and that is what I expect for Santa Maria villages at lower elevations for the same period. If the last decade increased 2 C compared to normals, chances are in the future it will be -2C for some years as well. Temperatures tend to warm up at a rate of 0.3 C, give it or take, per decade. The advantage of Azores here is that they pack way warmer lows than Sydney when it counts the most, like I said for 3 months your soils will be cooler than Santa Maria, lowlands, still maybe it can succeed long term with protection on both locations.

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Nick1985
7 minutes ago, Cluster said:

Hello Nick

Even Madeira can go as low as 15 c high in the worst record cold days and cocos are hardy there. This year (coldest February(February is the coldest month there) I have seen in the last years) we had a day with 16.5 high and 10.9 low for Funchal observatory station(still warmer than average temp for Sydney in 80-2010), a little warmer in lower elevations. I have searched the official data for Sydney and they have records of highs below 10 C, for example 9.6 in 1984. Brisbane which is way further north where the station has been active since only 1999 has already seen highs of only 12. So realistic speaking Sydney and north Sydney will see temps way below 15 C at some point and probably for more than one or two days. If that is enough or not, to kill coconuts, I am not sure, Florida has seen such days as well and they thrive. Sydney official station for 81-2010 only gives 17.4 C to Sydney and that is what I expect for Santa Maria villages at lower elevations for the same period. If the last decade increased 2 C compared to normals, chances are in the future it will be -2C for some years as well. Temperatures tend to warm up at a rate of 0.3 C, give it or take, per decade. The advantage of Azores here is that they pack way warmer lows than Sydney when it counts the most, like I said for 3 months your soils will be cooler than Santa Maria, lowlands, still maybe it can succeed long term with protection on both locations.

Definitely worth giving it a go. As I said I just worry about the max only going over 20 for 5 months of the year. Sydney has 8-9 months of over 20 and that’s going off long term averages. 

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Cluster
39 minutes ago, James West said:

Hi Nick1985. As you say, Sydney has been going through mild winters for a number of years. Last winter there were only a few days that didn't reach 16c. Winter highs averaging about 19c. However, we're not getting much rain and they are not watering those Malay Dwarfs. They should give them a quick drink on these hot humid days, with some water down the crown. The healthiest one now has six fronds. I'm sure with a bit of TLC they should handle the coming winter in view of the fact they were transplanted at the worst possible time last year. As far as the Azores or Turkey are concerned - little chance. I think 34 degrees from the equator is pushing the envelope about as far as it can stretch. . .

You may be right but remember your soils are cooler than Azores for 3 months (average temperature, with the coldest month having around the same high temperature and lower lows and then Sydney takes off with the highs slowly) and that station was for the period of 61-90 at 100 m elevation in the west side of the island. One can't look at 37 degrees Azores and compare it to Europe, because it is literally in the middle of the Atlantic getting sheltered from cold fronts and being boosted by the gulf stream, the sole reason Bermuda is quite warm and to a lesser extent Madeira. 

This beach called praia formosa in Santa Maria is protected by 200 m walls and is facing south:

praia-formosa-sta-maria.jpg

 

Praiaz1.JPG

Here the temperatures will be higher than the airport station in the west at 100 m elevation and also more protected from northern cold fronts.

If I had to place a bet and if we arrive to the conclusion Sydney can keep up coconuts growing unprotected, then I am sure a place like this is more than suitable and probably better.

Edited by Cluster

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Nick1985
2 minutes ago, Cluster said:

You may be right but remember your soils are cooler than Azores for 3 months (average temperature with the coldest month having around the same high temperature) and that station was for the period of 61-90 at 100 m elevation in the west side of the island. One can't look at 37 degrees Azores and compare it to Europe, because it is literally in the middle of the Atlantic getting sheltered from cold fronts and being boosted by the gulf stream, the sole reason Bermuda is quite warm and to a lesser extent Madeira. 

This beach called praia formosa in Santa Maria is protected by 200 m walls and is facing south:

praia-formosa-sta-maria.jpg

 

Praiaz1.JPG

Here the temperatures will be higher than the airport station in the west at 100 m elevation and also more protected from northern cold fronts.

If I had to place a bet and if we arrive to the conclusion Sydney can keep up coconuts growing unprotected, then I am sure a place like this is more than suitable and probably better.

Nice spot! Looks very nice.

If it was averaging 2-3 degrees warmer I would tend to agree with you. For example Funchal has them but it's 2-3 degrees warmer. I would say Funchal would be pushing the limits as it is. You should definitely try though in a sheltered corner from prevailing winter winds. 

Screen Shot 2018-02-20 at 8.00.32 am (2).png

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Cluster

That is not Funchal temperature, even Porto Santo airport (inland and 100 m elevation) has warmer temperatures than that. Official source: http://www.ipma.pt/en/oclima/normais.clima/1981-2010/009/

Coldest month is 19.7/13.4. Madeira has around 30 coconuts, though and some are older than 30 years, it is bullet proof even at 200 m elevation. Porto Santo island also has tall coconuts. At the moment what I question about Madeira is if the warmest regions can grow a lipstick palm for example:)

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Nick1985
1 hour ago, Cluster said:

That is not Funchal temperature, even Porto Santo airport (inland and 100 m elevation) has warmer temperatures than that. Official source: http://www.ipma.pt/en/oclima/normais.clima/1981-2010/009/

Coldest month is 19.7/13.4. Madeira has around 30 coconuts, though and some are older than 30 years, it is bullet proof even at 200 m elevation. Porto Santo island also has tall coconuts. At the moment what I question about Madeira is if the warmest regions can grow a lipstick palm for example:)

Now you’re definitely dreaming! They only grow on far North Queensland and Northern Territory here. These places are far warmer than Miami ois Havana. Let alone Madeira. 

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Cluster

I probably am but I have the feeling some southwest Zones like Jardim do Mar on the island have average lows of 14.5+ in February. I know of people with success in West Palm beach (not to mention Miami, Key west or Hawaii) and once I heard someone growing just 50 km north of Brisbane and of course Canary Islands as well. It might be a dream but I think it is less far fetched than coconuts in Sidney personally, after all I am talking about zone 12 here. In fact Funchal observatory is already a zone 12 station and is at 50 m elevation.

Edited by Cluster
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Nick1985
5 minutes ago, Cluster said:

I probably am but I have the feeling some southwest Zones like Jardim do Mar on the island have average lows of 14.5+ in February. I know of people with success in West Palm beach (not to mention Miami, Key west or Hawaii) and once I heard someone growing just 50 km north of Brisbane and of course Canary Islands as well. It might be a dream but I think it is less far fetched than coconuts in Sidney personally, after all I am talking about zone 12 here. 

You’re in Lala land. Sorry mate!

the tropics are not too far north of brisbane. 

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Cluster

The only reason I am saying this is because in the past when the Spanish community of Canaries was speaking more often on our forums, I remember them growing potted lipsticks in the northern parts of the island for sometime (during winter) and they were at a higher elevation (100 m + if my memory serves me well). The idea was to move them to some gardens in the south side if I recall and the Palmetum of Santa Cruz, sorry but I read this here on palmtalk long ago:). Brisbane is close to the tropics for sure like Sunshine Coast, but they have lower lows and especially record lows than Funchal as well as mean averages in the coldest month, our southwest coast is warmer than Funchal. The only southwest station we have averages around 14 C low on February and 20.5 C or so high. 

Anyway it is a dream, but if I had land in the warmest zones I would certainly try it out! If it dies at least I tried:), not hard, unlike a coconut that is heavy to transport and import!

Edited by Cluster
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Mr. Coconut Palm
On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2018‎ ‎3‎:‎43‎:‎33‎, Nick1985 said:

I’m attempting to grow a coconut on Sydney’s Northern beaches. It’s growing heaps of shoots during summer. winter will be the test. It’s in a pot on my balcony north facing, protected from wind. We have  good microclimate here so I’m semi confident in it. I have pineapples going nuts and fruiting here and all down my street there are papayas mangos and bananas. I have also seen a coconut on sydney Harbour around point piper I think. It’s on the property of a millionaire so may have been planted Already establishes. Wasn’t fruiting.  

Ill keep you guys posted. 

Hi Nick,

Welcome to the forum!  I would definitely give it a try.  I am successfully growing a juvenile trunking Green Malayan Dwarf in a very marginal climate for Coconut Palms in Corpus Christi, Texas, so you should try it too, especially with one of the more cold hardy tall varieties.

John

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Mr. Coconut Palm
On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2018‎ ‎11‎:‎22‎:‎00‎, Anamurlu said:

Howea palm is probably; sharp leaves give that impression.? The photo is not clear; but can there be a coconut palm like the fruits there?

https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/114708274217031770724/6480945702594759170

 

 

DSCN2416.JPG

Those look like Coconut Palms to me.

John

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Mr. Coconut Palm
On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2018‎ ‎11‎:‎22‎:‎00‎, Anamurlu said:

Howea palm is probably; sharp leaves give that impression.? The photo is not clear; but can there be a coconut palm like the fruits there?

https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/114708274217031770724/6480945702594759170

 

 

DSCN2416.JPG

Cem,

Where is that location?  I tried to enlarge the map with the photo to find what country it is in, but couldn't do it.

John

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Alicante
5 hours ago, Cluster said:

I probably am but I have the feeling some southwest Zones like Jardim do Mar on the island have average lows of 14.5+ in February. I know of people with success in West Palm beach (not to mention Miami, Key west or Hawaii) and once I heard someone growing just 50 km north of Brisbane and of course Canary Islands as well. It might be a dream but I think it is less far fetched than coconuts in Sidney personally, after all I am talking about zone 12 here. In fact Funchal observatory is already a zone 12 station and is at 50 m elevation.

That's a personal estimation, the warmest spot of Madeira with an official station, Funchal, averages 13.4ºC in the coldest month (lows) so no place in Madeira will be nowhere as close to +14.5ºC lows in the coldest month, that's just a biased opinion which seems way too unrealistic (don't take it bad, please).

Madeira is known for it's stable, mild temps as well as the Azores are. Just look at the extremes on both places Funchal is also affected by the UHI being the only city (and pretty dense) on the island, and that affects on the temps too. Maybe the warmest microclimate in Madeira can come close to a 14ºC low in February, which would be already +0.6ºC warmer than Funchal, which is something important for such a stable place. It's an estimation as well.

About the Porto Santo coconuts, some Portuguese guys here tried to find as many as possible and barely few were found, even Madeira has less than 3 dozens as you say, which grow in isolated places (I agree the city of Funchal can grow them in lowlands) but I wouldn't call tall the famous coconut in Porto Santo. After all it has some meters, it's an old specimen. But a coconut can grow up to 30m and that coconut seems like 5-6m, isn't it? It has the height of that small house. 

Edited by Alicante

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Alicante
18 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Cem,

Where is that location?  I tried to enlarge the map with the photo to find what country it is in, but couldn't do it.

John

Curraghbeena Point, Sydney. They're actually Howeas, but they can be quite misleading when they're adult ones.

Btw, I envy a lot Australians because they really take advance of their climate when landscaping. Here where I live, the luxury hotels have like lots of tropical species thriving very good, but most palms are just Phoenixes, W.Robusta and Syagrus. At least Raveneas, Bismarckias, Archontophoenix, Howeas and Roystoneas are becoming more and more famous, but still not much. Even in the Canaries, with such potential, they mostly landscape with few species. :(

About the Cyrtostachys Renda in Madeira, it's definetly impossible. Nick is right here, not even in the warmest microclimate the island can bring. 

Edited by Alicante
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Nick1985
4 minutes ago, Alicante said:

Curraghbeena Point, Sydney. They're actually Howeas, but they can be quite misleading when they're adult ones.

Btw, I envy a lot Australians because they really take advance of their climate when landscaping. Here where I live, the luxury hotels have like lots of tropical species thriving very good, but most palms are just Phoenixes, W.Robusta and Syagrus. At least Raveneas, Bismarckias, Archontophoenix, Howeas and Roystoneas are becoming more and more famous, but still not much. Even in the Canaries, with such potential, they mostly landscape with few species. :(

 

Yes they do really go for it here. There are dozens of different Palms around, kentia (same as Howea) are very common as they are native to Lord Howe near here. Definitely people push the boundaries. We have a lot of poinciana and pandanus around which I don’t think would normally grow so far south of the equator. 

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Xenon
6 hours ago, Cluster said:

I probably am but I have the feeling some southwest Zones like Jardim do Mar on the island have average lows of 14.5+ in February. I know of people with success in West Palm beach (not to mention Miami, Key west or Hawaii) and once I heard someone growing just 50 km north of Brisbane and of course Canary Islands as well. 

I think you are overemphasizing average lows and record lows. Madeira simply lacks heat, looks like only 4-5 months of average highs above 23-24C while most of the locations you listed average near or above that in mid-winter. The intensity of the sun is also much stronger due to the lower latitude. Optimal highs would probably be in the 29-30C range (like its lowland equatorial habitat) which Madeira does not even come close to having on a consistent basis. I think a lipstick palm has a much greater chance of surviving a string of mild winters in WPB than sulking in maritime Madeira. However, I do think its very impressive that you are able to get coconuts to fruit. 

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Alicante
9 hours ago, James West said:

+Nick1985

I don't think I've posted this previously - a snap from about a month ago: 

Cocos2.jpg

Was the coconut planted on soil from a nursery/greenhouse being already a "mature" palm? Or it just went like that after years outdoors, on the ground?

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Cluster
5 hours ago, Alicante said:

That's a personal estimation, the warmest spot of Madeira with an official station, Funchal, averages 13.4ºC in the coldest month (lows) so no place in Madeira will be nowhere as close to +14.5ºC lows in the coldest month, that's just a biased opinion which seems way too unrealistic (don't take it bad, please).

Madeira is known for it's stable, mild temps as well as the Azores are. Just look at the extremes on both places Funchal is also affected by the UHI being the only city (and pretty dense) on the island, and that affects on the temps too. Maybe the warmest microclimate in Madeira can come close to a 14ºC low in February, which would be already +0.6ºC warmer than Funchal, which is something important for such a stable place. It's an estimation as well.

About the Porto Santo coconuts, some Portuguese guys here tried to find as many as possible and barely few were found, even Madeira has less than 3 dozens as you say, which grow in isolated places (I agree the city of Funchal can grow them in lowlands) but I wouldn't call tall the famous coconut in Porto Santo. After all it has some meters, it's an old specimen. But a coconut can grow up to 30m and that coconut seems like 5-6m, isn't it? It has the height of that small house. 

Adam,

Ponta do Sol 81-2010 is already at 14 C  and is at 40 m elevation and a bit inland, Funchal/Lido already surpasses that as it is lower elevation (25 m) in west Funchal. Porto Moniz also reaches around 14 C in the northern coast at 35 m elevation. Funchal observatory is one of the coolest places to put a station in the south coast to be honest, even Porto Moniz has warmer lows (even though lower highs). Saying 14.5 is a stretch in the warmest places at 15 m elevation when we already have stations at or just above 14 and higher elevation is not a stretch, especially if you know the island. 

Porto Santo coconut has probably only 10 years maybe a bit more, but there is more than one if I recall. You have to see barely anyone lives in Porto Santo, only 5k people, the island is very small and unlike Madeira it has desert like rain. If it is hard to get a coconut to Madeira, more so to Porto Santo, especially when you have no one to take care of them, unless they are there in their summer vacations. In Madeira I know two coconuts above 170 m elevation one is 25+ year old in Ponta do Sol, the other at 200 m is 6 years old in Funchal. Growing coocnuts there is quite easy, fruiting is another story more research is needed!

 

 

 

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Cluster
4 hours ago, Xenon said:

I think you are overemphasizing average lows and record lows. Madeira simply lacks heat, looks like only 4-5 months of average highs above 23-24C while most of the locations you listed average near or above that in mid-winter. The intensity of the sun is also much stronger due to the lower latitude. Optimal highs would probably be in the 29-30C range (like its lowland equatorial habitat) which Madeira does not even come close to having on a consistent basis. I think a lipstick palm has a much greater chance of surviving a string of mild winters in WPB than sulking in maritime Madeira. However, I do think its very impressive that you are able to get coconuts to fruit. 

I am not disagreeing with you, but I think it would be nice to attempt. Have you read the Spanish forums infojardim where a user got the lipstick palm to survive and got to 8 C(that was in a very cool place in north of Tenerife called Bajamar at some higher elevation) It did look bad from what I understood but it survived the cooler than usual winter. In the past people said coconut would not fruit on Madeira island either. The thing with lipstick if I understood all the reports about the palm is that it is not as demanding of highs as coconut, but it certainly hates cold, more so than coconut. 

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Shoowow

The Azores topic has been beaten to death on these forums. Until there’s a coconut on the ground it’s all theory. 

A few points:

- You can look all day at weather charts, but being on the ground is different. We have high humidity, high dewpoints, stable temps and many hours of filtered sun (which of course doesn’t count as sunshine hours). The sun is very hot. 

- Yes, pineaples can grow outdoors fine in the Azores — although we are famous for greenhouse pineapples. We can also grow bananas commercially, as well as anonas, papayas, mangoes, jambu, etc., to a less extend. I have tons of guavas on my property.

- We do indeed have Roystoneas on the ground. I know one about 6m tall. I have a very healthy looking and fast growing young one in my backyard at 100m. There’s not much of this stuff here because it’s hard to come around, only a few palm collectors and people are not really that interested in making the Azores look like Hawaii.

In any case, at 37N we have a very stable climate. Yes, the cool winter season is long, but temps are extremely stables. In my location we have dropped to about 8c this winter only a couple of times. We’ve gotten to 18/19c many days. Most days reach 16 to 17 for several hours. So, again, I think if a coconut can grow in Porto Santo and Madeira, it should, theory, survive in the Azores.

 

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Alicante
1 hour ago, Cluster said:

Adam,

Ponta do Sol 81-2010 is already at 14 C  and is at 40 m elevation and a bit inland, Funchal/Lido already surpasses that as it is lower elevation (25 m) in west Funchal. Porto Moniz also reaches around 14 C in the northern coast at 35 m elevation. Funchal observatory is one of the coolest places to put a station in the south coast to be honest, even Porto Moniz has warmer lows (even though lower highs). Saying 14.5 is a stretch in the warmest places at 15 m elevation when we already have stations at or just above 14 and higher elevation is not a stretch, especially if you know the island. 

Porto Santo coconut has probably only 10 years maybe a bit more, but there is more than one if I recall. You have to see barely anyone lives in Porto Santo, only 5k people, the island is very small and unlike Madeira it has desert like rain. If it is hard to get a coconut to Madeira, more so to Porto Santo, especially when you have no one to take care of them, unless they are there in their summer vacations. In Madeira I know two coconuts above 170 m elevation one is 25+ year old in Ponta do Sol, the other at 200 m is 6 years old in Funchal. Growing coocnuts there is quite easy, fruiting is another story more research is needed!

 

 

 

 

46 minutes ago, Cluster said:

I am not disagreeing with you, but I think it would be nice to attempt. Have you read the Spanish forums infojardim where a user got the lipstick palm to survive and got to 8 C(that was in a very cool place in north of Tenerife called Bajamar at some higher elevation) It did look bad from what I understood but it survived the cooler than usual winter. In the past people said coconut would not fruit on Madeira island either. The thing with lipstick if I understood all the reports about the palm is that it is not as demanding of highs as coconut, but it certainly hates cold, more so than coconut. 

Where is the Ponta do Sol long long term averages? Funchal, affected by the UHI, in southern Madeira, has low averages of 13.4ºC in the coldest month...

According to IPMA, the station of Ponta do Sol is at  32º40.81'N, 17º06.35'W  which seeing it on the maps, is exactly on the coast, at 20 meters from the ocean in a sheltered zone with a mountain above it and in the "garden" of a public building surrounded by concrete. Anyways, anything <1km from the coast is very coastal. 

That Bajamar 8ºC didn't happen, it's a Mexican guy asking if he can grow them in a zone which gets 8-10ºC lows, and then the Bajamar guy said yes, his zone gets about 10ºC minimums, I would recall it a bit more than 10ºC because that Bajamar area is 12a looking at plant maps. Lipsticks need at least 15ºC low averages in the coldest month, so it's impossible for Madeira. Just as Xenon pointed, there is also the lack of warmth in the highs, but that's another case now. If something grows in the Canaries it doesn't mean it will grow in Madeira because as you know, the Canaries are from significantly to much warmer, natural as well being 4ºN closer to the Equator, and it has a stronger sun as well. I don't understand why this constant comparison thing between both places. :D

As now we're with this topic, I will answer you this time but then I will stick to the coconuts in furthermost areas. The lipstick palms in northern Tenerife, a bit inland in Bajamar, died some years ago after growing nicely for 8 years, because they got constant 13-14ºC lows that month they died. Funchal averages 13.4ºC, so it can't grow there even one single winter. Lipsticks suffer under 15ºC, which is what Funchal gets in average 4-5 months a year, from mid-late December to April. 

There are many lipsticks in the Canaries on coastal areas, although someone mentioned in InfoJardin a couple of users living a bit inland at a +100m altitude growing nicely, but the Canaries have average lows in official stations up to 16.4ºC in the coldest month (Hierro). Quite a difference from 13.4ºC.

This February for example, http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsynres?ind=08521&ndays=31&ano=2018&mes=02&day=20&hora=06&ord=REV&enviar=Ver Funchal got even a 14.4ºC high with a 10.8ºC low the same day. Unless 1 day with 15.3ºC, all of the other days since 25th January had highs under 15ºC; with some under 12ºC as well and many under 13ºC. That's too cold for a lipstick, and I won't mention the highs which had several days under 17ºC. This is the station of Santa Catarina, right in the city and in front of the ocean, in Funchal marina. This website from above only uses 100% official data, in this case from IPMA.

If you want, we can continue this conversation in private. It's too off topic for this thread, it's better to continue it elsewhere. :)

 

Edited by Alicante
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Nick1985

Yes I’ve noticed constant comparisons for Canaries-Madeira-Azores. They’re all moderated by sea but in that order they are a few degrees warmer than the other. 

Looking at Canaries I would say they have a similar climate to northern New South Wales in Australia or possibly Gold Coast. Although coconuts grow and fruit unattended throughout northern NSW & SE QLD. I’m unsure what they’re like in the canaries. 

The Azores I think would be impossible for a coconut but please prove me wrong. No need to argue just make an attempt and good luck. It would definitely be the furtherest from the equator I’ve heard of. 

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