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Beccariophoenix alfredii

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kinzyjr
Just now, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

 

Dang 40' that is some canopy lol. How would you rate its speed of growth ? Slower then a date palm ? 

The canopy is provided by trimmed up mature live oaks.  Thus far, on par with my Trachycarpus fortunei => a new frond per month thus far.  It is still very young, so that is subject to change. 

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
5 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

The canopy is provided by trimmed up mature live oaks.  Thus far, on par with my Trachycarpus fortunei => a new frond per month thus far.  It is still very young, so that is subject to change. 

Wow that's really good growth I'm sure getting wider too 

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Equistar

The ones on i4 in Orlando are mule palms not BA. Pretty sure about this. I am waiting on a big freeze to see how my 8 footer does with only some protection on the west side of my property

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kinzyjr
1 hour ago, Equistar said:

The ones on i4 in Orlando are mule palms not BA. Pretty sure about this. I am waiting on a big freeze to see how my 8 footer does with only some protection on the west side of my property

The palms at the interchanges on I-4 look like mules (ex. Exit 60 onto 429 just outside of Polk County) so I agree on the palms directly on the highway and its interchanges.  By I-4 corridor, I'm including the cities along it such as Daytona, Deltona, Sanford, Orlando, Kissimmee,  Davenport, Lakeland and Tampa.

This thread had a bunch in Orlando that didn't appear to have anything overhead (Livingston St.):

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/56646-new-beccariophoenix-alfredii-street-plantings-in-downtown-orlando/

While not technically part of the I-4 corridor, these will be a true test of hardiness up in Dade City the next time we have a freeze:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/60041-beccariophoenix-alfredii-grove/

Not that I want to ruin your experiment, but I hope we don't get a big freeze ;)

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FishEyeAquaculture
On 1/2/2020 at 6:45 PM, kinzyjr said:

.While not technically part of the I-4 corridor, these will be a true test of hardiness up in Dade City the next time we have a freeze:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/60041-beccariophoenix-alfredii-grove/

Not that I want to ruin your experiment, but I hope we don't get a big freeze ;)

Challenge accepted!!!! 

This is the second winter since these were planted (lowest temp has been 31 w/ frost) and so far only a slight bronzing on lower fronds (that curiously turns green again within a couple weeks).  

However, tonight/tomorrow morning might give them their biggest challenge since planting.  Dade City is foretasted drop to 30, and I usually see 2 degrees lower being more of a rural area.

There are another 14 smaller specimens on a different part of the property, w/ half of them experiencing their first winter.  Below is a picture this December, note the Jacaranda that I planted in summer of 2010 

IMG_9968.jpg

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kinzyjr

@FishEyeAquaculture Thank you for doing this.  I'm sure that the information that you provide will sway a lot of folks one way or the other on this one, particularly in Central Florida.  Good luck tonight/tomorrow!

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FishEyeAquaculture

@kinzyjrTemperature sensors are out there among tonight!

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kinzyjr
4 hours ago, FishEyeAquaculture said:

@kinzyjrTemperature sensors are out there among tonight!

I moved my temperature sensor to an exposed bamboo stalk ~10 feet from my Beccariophoenix alfredii.  I'm expecting positive results since the wind will likely stop frost from forming, but only one way to tell for sure.  I'll probably monitor the palm for ~2-3 months due to the number of reports of latent damage on this thread.

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FishEyeAquaculture

- Morning of 1/22/20

- Dade City, FL

- Lowest temps>>> *Sensor hanging off Jacaranda (pictured above), 3’ above ground level: 28F    *NWS: 29F    *Truck temp sensor: 30F

- No frost...anywhere

I will update on B. alfredii status in a couple weeks

49D6F54D-1A38-48FD-921F-D445F42963D2.jpeg

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sonoranfans

I think what is happening is the length of cold is sometimes as important as the low temperature in palm survival.  Evidence says this is a 9b palm in humid subtropical(longer cold events), and it can take lower temps in CA inland desert areas because it warms up much faster after a cold front.  As the palm grows it will be come a bit more cold hardy to radiational events as the bud rises in height.  My own experience with the advective cold of jan 2018(30 degrees for many(10-12) hours with 3 BA (~15-23' in height) was they were not effected at all.  Not even leaf tip burn.  When this front came through, my archies and kentiopsis were completely defoliated and my 35' royals were also mostly fried with with spears intact .  The foliage is less tender than those palms than royals, archies or kentiopsis or teddy bears.  But is it the hoped for mule palm alternative? of course not.  No coconut comes close in cold hardiness, though many in my area survived the 30 degree event fried but grew back.  Out west in CA or AZ, these palms might be OK in 9a, kind of like bismarckia.  If your bizzie was killed, these palms would also have died.  Note bizzies really struggle in 9a florida or lousiana, but out west, they can probably survive long term in a warm 9a.  

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Sandy Loam

QUOTE:

"Not even leaf tip burn.  When this front came through, my archies and kentiopsis were completely defoliated and my 35' royals were also mostly fried with with spears intact ." 

Are you saying that beccariophoenix alfredii are more cold-hardy than mature royals or kentiopsis oliviformis?  I thought that all three would be the same, with kentiopsis winning out slightly.  I guess I was wrong. 

QUOTE:

"Out west in CA or AZ, these palms might be OK in 9a, kind of like bismarckia.  If your bizzie was killed, these palms would also have died.  Note bizzies really struggle in 9a florida or lousiana, but out west, they can probably survive long term in a warm 9a."  

Actually, I am in zone 9a up here in the cold parts of northern Florida.  Here, there seem to be plenty of mature bismarckia nobilis around town, but I have never seen a single beccariophoenix alfredii.  I would be very surprised if those two palms had the same cold-hardiness, but I am certainly open to being wrong.  Bismarckias are tough.  I would not risk planting one in borderline places like Charleston SC or Austin, TX, but they do fine here in Gainesville, FL.  They are perhaps the same as queen palms in terms of cold-hardiness. 

 

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
On ‎1‎/‎28‎/‎2020 at 12:20 AM, Sandy Loam said:

"Out west in CA or AZ, these palms might be OK in 9a, kind of like bismarckia.  If your bizzie was killed, these palms would also have died.  Note bizzies really struggle in 9a florida or lousiana, but out west, they can probably survive long term in a warm 9a."  

Actually, I am in zone 9a up here in the cold parts of northern Florida.  Here, there seem to be plenty of mature bismarckia nobilis around town, but I have never seen a single beccariophoenix alfredii.  I would be very surprised if those two palms had the same cold-hardiness, but I am certainly open to being wrong.  Bismarckias are tough.  I would not risk planting one in borderline places like Charleston SC or Austin, TX, but they do fine here in Gainesville, FL.  They are perhaps the same as queen palms in terms of cold-hardiness. 

I think us folks in 9a Texas would be ecstatic if Alfies had the same hardiness as Bizzies . Around here Bizzies are considered long term palms for us, even 100% defoliation in 2018 didn't kill them, which in the same area killed much larger queens. I got a hold of a couple Alfies and one day I plan to plant them with overhead protection of large Oaks

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sonoranfans
On 1/27/2020 at 10:20 PM, Sandy Loam said:

QUOTE:

"Not even leaf tip burn.  When this front came through, my archies and kentiopsis were completely defoliated and my 35' royals were also mostly fried with with spears intact ." 

Are you saying that beccariophoenix alfredii are more cold-hardy than mature royals or kentiopsis oliviformis?  I thought that all three would be the same, with kentiopsis winning out slightly.  I guess I was wrong. 

QUOTE:

"Out west in CA or AZ, these palms might be OK in 9a, kind of like bismarckia.  If your bizzie was killed, these palms would also have died.  Note bizzies really struggle in 9a florida or lousiana, but out west, they can probably survive long term in a warm 9a."  

Actually, I am in zone 9a up here in the cold parts of northern Florida.  Here, there seem to be plenty of mature bismarckia nobilis around town, but I have never seen a single beccariophoenix alfredii.  I would be very surprised if those two palms had the same cold-hardiness, but I am certainly open to being wrong.  Bismarckias are tough.  I would not risk planting one in borderline places like Charleston SC or Austin, TX, but they do fine here in Gainesville, FL.  They are perhaps the same as queen palms in terms of cold-hardiness. 

 

You wouldn't see alfrediis of size pretty much anywhere "around town" even down by me, they are only 10-12 years in cultivation.   Bismarckias have been around forever.  Zone 9a only gets you within 5 degrees F(temp range of a zone) and most references have bismarckia as a 9b palm it will take a cold 9b over the long term.  Alfredii's might not be quite as cold hardy as bismarckias, but you couldn't tell from looking around since the first seed only first arrived in 2005(?).   I do not know of a single alfredii within 5 miles of me and I am in 9b with 10 winters for 7 years running.  There are plenty of royals here though, which are much less cold hardy. than beccariophoenix alfredii.  No alfredii has even set seed in cultivation yet as far as we know.  

As far as bismarckia and alfredii, they BOTH prefer a dry 9a out west to the ice/snow and longer cold durations in 9a florida.  I dont think alfredii makes it in a cool 9a florida, I can agree to that.  https://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Beccariophoenix_alfredii  (cold tolerrance is 25F)

https://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Bismarckia_nobilis                     Palmpedia is a great reference for hobbyists

"Full sun is the best location for this palm. Unfortunately full sun often means the most intense cold exposure in the winter. It is cold tolerant down to the high 20s/-3.3C as a seedling, often being defoliated at temps below 27F/-2.77C (but usually recovers if the bud is treated well). However, as this plant matures its cold tolerance seems to improve dramatically, with some palms surviving temps down near 22F/-5.55C with only moderate leaf damage. Over winter this is one of those palms that tends to go 'into a coma' often not showing the least bit of growth for 4-6 months at a time. However, once it warms up, it is not unusual to see some palms produce up to 1-2 leaves a month (the larger the faster it grows) which is very fast for a Mediterranean climate palm."   So if you are in a cold 9a buy a bigger one, its more cold hardy by 5 degrees F or more.  Big bismarckias are available I see them all the time, but that is likely the only way for long term survival in florida 9a.  There are no bigger Beccariophoenix to buy, cant even find a trunking one for sale.  We also dont know the cold tolerance of large alfredii since so few large ones exist in cultivation.  But larger alfredii are less susceptible to frost exposure below freezing.

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sonoranfans

by the way yes alfredii are notably more foliage hardy than large royals or kentiopsis.  Ultimate cold hardiness is unknown until someone kills a big alfredii.  I have all 3 palms as 25' and taller(royal), and the alfredii is the clear winner here.  Kentiopsis and large royal?  I have both at 25'+, I say they are pretty close to each other and the royals may do better in successive hard winters since they recover faster.   Bismarckia is a few degrees more cold tolerant than BA but they too take the cold better out west in the dry radiational events that don't last as long as those florida ice storms.  My guess is adult Bizzies take ~23F here in florida, but it can take down to ~19-20F for a short period out west in arizona/california as adults.  Dry radiational events out west warm up quickly, you can often get a 30-35 degree warmup from the morning low to the afternoon.  That almost never happens in 9a florida.

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Sandy Loam

I just had a beccariophoenix alfredii transplanting disaster.   I was reluctant to go through with the transplant because of my prior experience, but I decided to go for it anyway.   Back in about 2013, I transplanted a juvenile beccariophoenix alfredii from one in-ground location to another.  The palm died a month later.   I hope that doesn't happen again this time.  Here's what happened during my recent transplant:  I had trouble getting this juvenile beccariophoenix alfredii out of the ground due to competing tree roots which had become woven into the Alfredii's.  After I finally got it unrooted, the soil was 100% gone from the rootball (bare-rooted entirely) and most of the roots had been ripped off of the beccariophoenix alfredii.   There are a few roots left, but they are shorter than before.  I now have it replanted in a pot instead of the ground (potting mix), but with so few roots remaining, I don't know how the tree will manage to absorb water.  Also, isn't the overall trauma to the three another variable in its survival? 

What are my chances that this beccariophoenix alfredii will survive?   

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kinzyjr

January 22, 2020

Palm is a youngster (2ft. overall) with pinnate fronds in the ground not quite a year before the cold event.  The planting is under live oak canopy in one of the lower sections of the property where cold air tends to drain.  For this event, the thermometer was tied to a bamboo stalk in the shade at 6 feet high ~10 feet from the palm in question.  The official low for the city was 34F.  In the lower part of the garden, the thermometer measured 32.4F briefly for an ultimate low.  Under canopy with light wind there was no frost, but there was some light frost in empty retention ponds in the region.  Date has historical significance as a day when we recorded a record low in the past (20F).  Palm shows zero damage after almost 2 months and remains in active growth. 

Comparison with Coconut Palms:

Coconuts closer to the house were unprotected, but roughly 6-10 ft. higher in elevation in an area that averages 2.5F above what the airport records.  All showed some spotting or leaf tip browning on their older fronds, but no spear or upper crown damage.  Malayan Dwarf had recently regrown its crown after being down to just the spear leaf due to unauthorized root pruning by Spectrum personnel while I was not home.  It was in the most protected spot and is the oldest of all of the coconuts (2011) and had very little damage.  All are growing fine and have pushed out fronds since.

Anxious for @FishEyeAquaculture to release his report from the friendly confines of Dade City. :)

20200310_184903_Beccariophoenix_alfredii_1600.jpg

202001220615_LakelandWeather_monthly.png

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kinzyjr
On 2/19/2020 at 8:13 PM, Sandy Loam said:

I just had a beccariophoenix alfredii transplanting disaster.   I was reluctant to go through with the transplant because of my prior experience, but I decided to go for it anyway.   Back in about 2013, I transplanted a juvenile beccariophoenix alfredii from one in-ground location to another.  The palm died a month later.   I hope that doesn't happen again this time.  Here's what happened during my recent transplant:  I had trouble getting this juvenile beccariophoenix alfredii out of the ground due to competing tree roots which had become woven into the Alfredii's.  After I finally got it unrooted, the soil was 100% gone from the rootball (bare-rooted entirely) and most of the roots had been ripped off of the beccariophoenix alfredii.   There are a few roots left, but they are shorter than before.  I now have it replanted in a pot instead of the ground (potting mix), but with so few roots remaining, I don't know how the tree will manage to absorb water.  Also, isn't the overall trauma to the three another variable in its survival? 

What are my chances that this beccariophoenix alfredii will survive?   

Curious if this one managed to survive the transplanting event as well...

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Sandy Loam
3 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Curious if this one managed to survive the transplanting event as well...

It is too soon to know.  So far, so good. 

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FishEyeAquaculture
4 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Anxious for @FishEyeAquaculture to release his report from the friendly confines of Dade City. :)

January 22, 2020, our property in Dade City, FL (zone 9b) hit a low of 28F, per my acurite / NWS says 29F / weather station a couple properties away says 27F.   No frost in open areas where B. alfredii are

6hrs post event, any B. alfredii planted in the ground and under 2' OH (just starting to go pinnate), showed a little bit of bronzing....any over 2' OH look as if nothing happened.  All of these specimens are planted full sun with no protection. 

24hrs post event, any bronzing seemed to have faded back to green.  

3 weeks after event, all B. alfredii that were planted in the ground look as if nothing happened...not a blemish. 

HOWEVER, this is not the same story for those that were potted.  Three weeks after the event, 39 out of 40 B. alfredii that were potted in 7gal containers and were placed no more than 75' from several planted specimens have suffered heavy foliage damage and spear pull (only one did not suffer any damage, no idea why it was unscathed).   You can see in the pictures below, the difference between in the ground and potted

IMG_0505.JPG

IMG_0507.JPG

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Hferrell87
8 hours ago, FishEyeAquaculture said:

January 22, 2020, our property in Dade City, FL (zone 9b) hit a low of 28F, per my acurite / NWS says 29F / weather station a couple properties away says 27F.   No frost in open areas where B. alfredii are

6hrs post event, any B. alfredii planted in the ground and under 2' OH (just starting to go pinnate), showed a little bit of bronzing....any over 2' OH look as if nothing happened.  All of these specimens are planted full sun with no protection. 

24hrs post event, any bronzing seemed to have faded back to green.  

3 weeks after event, all B. alfredii that were planted in the ground look as if nothing happened...not a blemish. 

HOWEVER, this is not the same story for those that were potted.  Three weeks after the event, 39 out of 40 B. alfredii that were potted in 7gal containers and were placed no more than 75' from several planted specimens have suffered heavy foliage damage and spear pull (only one did not suffer any damage, no idea why it was unscathed).   You can see in the pictures below, the difference between in the ground and potted

IMG_0505.JPG

IMG_0507.JPG

Great real world data on these! Thanks

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Sandy Loam
On 3/11/2020 at 2:11 AM, Sandy Loam said:

It is too soon to know.  So far, so good. 

Now it is dead. I should have just left it where it was planted originally.

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kinzyjr
1 hour ago, Sandy Loam said:

Now it is dead. I should have just left it where it was planted originally.

Sad news, but thank you for keeping us posted.

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Sandy Loam
On 3/22/2020 at 10:16 PM, kinzyjr said:

Sad news, but thank you for keeping us posted.

Hold on - - all fronds turned brown/dead, but there is a tiny sprig of green at the growth point. I will keep watering it and hope for the best.

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FishEyeAquaculture

Update on potted specimens that suffered heavy damage to foliage and spear pull after experiencing 27F-29F on 1/22/20

4/22/20 .... 3 months after event .... 36 out of the 39 B. alfredii that were potted in 7gal containers that suffered heavy foliage damage and spear pull are recovering and pushing out beautiful new spears!!!! 

*I should've mentioned that I did drench the soil, bud, and foliage with Banrot on the evening of 1/22 (~12hrs after coldest temperatures)

*3 out of the 39 did not survive

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Zeeth
On 4/22/2020 at 5:16 AM, FishEyeAquaculture said:

Update on potted specimens that suffered heavy damage to foliage and spear pull after experiencing 27F-29F on 1/22/20

4/22/20 .... 3 months after event .... 36 out of the 39 B. alfredii that were potted in 7gal containers that suffered heavy foliage damage and spear pull are recovering and pushing out beautiful new spears!!!! 

*I should've mentioned that I did drench the soil, bud, and foliage with Banrot on the evening of 1/22 (~12hrs after coldest temperatures)

*3 out of the 39 did not survive

Set aside the undamaged one and plant it somewhere special! It's probably got better genetics than the rest. 

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FishEyeAquaculture
12 hours ago, Zeeth said:

Set aside the undamaged one and plant it somewhere special! It's probably got better genetics than the rest. 

Agreed

#DarwinApproves

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Tropicdoc

The problem I see with B alfredii is that when it gets defoliated/ heavy damage, it takes 1-2 years to grow out of it. I have 2 in "full" sun (the most I can give them at my place) and they grow about 4 fronds a year. SO SLOW. So even if I protect the growing point I'm gonna have a nearly frondless palm for a while.

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mnorell

In my previous garden in Natchez, Mississippi (9a), I did not have great luck with Beccariophoenix. I tried both B. alfredii (back in those days it was known as 'high plateau') and also B. madagascariensis (back then known as 'no windows'). I started with eight B. alfredii and at least two B. madagascariensis, strap-leaved and in the ground. They pretty much defoliated around 26-27F (even B. alfredii) and returned from the subterranean bud after events down to 23 or so. But growth was very slow, and they were all wiped out at 18F in the long 2010 freeze even though the buds were below ground-level. By contrast, two other pinnate Madagascan palms, Dypsis madagascariensis 'Mahajanga' and Ravenea glauca, came right back from their below-ground meristems after that winter. Who knows, maybe the Beccariophoenix would have been a little hardier if they were much larger to begin with.

As a comparison, I also grew Bismarckia and managed to keep it alive for four or five winters in that climate. I witnessed repeatedly that it defoliated identically with exposed Washingtonia robusta and Livistona chinensis at about 23F. Three days below freezing in 2010, and down to 18F, did it in even though it was pretty large; while Washingtonia and Livistona recovered at much smaller sizes. And I don't think Bismarckia can be considered long-term palms anywhere north of Central Florida, since long, wet freezes to teens or single digits will happen in all such areas every 10-30 years. Correct me if I'm wrong and there are 30-plus-year-old survivors, but with 1989 being the benchmark, I think a reasonable assumption is that they are truly safe only from roughly the I-4 corridor southward (even there, was there 100% survival?). And the effort required to remove a large, dead Bismarckia is not trifling! (Let alone the danger of its huge, rotten crown coming down on houses, cars or people.) And I am sure that Beccariophoenix is at best three degrees more **tender** than Bismarckia.

I agree that it is very likely that Beccariophoenix is much hardier out west...what Tom Blank (sonoranfans) says about eastern (wet) vs western (dry) freezes is very true; I have witnessed in my garden in Rancho Mirage (near Palm Springs) a dip to 30F having absolutely no effect on tender plants under open sky, not only because the temp rebounded pretty quickly in the morning, but also because dewpoints were down in single digits, and no frost formed anywhere. In-ground Adenium were completely unfazed and didn't even defoliate. Plumeria went on blooming and held full crowns of foliage as well. Ground-hugging Bougainvillea down in the flats of the Coachella Valley, where lows were several degrees lower than my garden, were undamaged and kept blooming their heads off. Kind of mind-boggling. That would never be the case in the southeast or Florida if those temps were experienced.

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Marc

I live in northern california near San Jose and have 3 alfredii; I have seen temperatures as low as 24 degrees F with no damage at all (not even leaf tips).  However, as someone indicated earlier in this thread, western freezes are much more short lived, i.e., it only happens for a few hours on the coldest nights in winter, around 4-7am, usually when there is no humidity at all, and temperatures then always heat back up to the 50s-60s during the daytime - freezing temperatures with either high humidity or duration of longer than 4-5 hours max are unheard of here.  For comparison purposes, I have an R. Glauca that will show leaf burn at around 25.5 degrees, but otherwise seems to come back without hindrance.  B. Fenestralis seems more tender (I have one with significant leaf burn that it's still recovering from).  BTW, I am finding that C. Amazonicum at least in this climate seems very comparable to B. Alfredii in terms of growth rate and performance.

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Hillizard
1 hour ago, Marc said:

I live in northern california near San Jose and have 3 alfredii; I have seen temperatures as low as 24 degrees F with no damage at all (not even leaf tips).  However, as someone indicated earlier in this thread, western freezes are much more short lived, i.e., it only happens for a few hours on the coldest nights in winter, around 4-7am, usually when there is no humidity at all, and temperatures then always heat back up to the 50s-60s during the daytime - freezing temperatures with either high humidity or duration of longer than 4-5 hours max are unheard of here.  For comparison purposes, I have an R. Glauca that will show leaf burn at around 25.5 degrees, but otherwise seems to come back without hindrance.  B. Fenestralis seems more tender (I have one with significant leaf burn that it's still recovering from).  BTW, I am finding that C. Amazonicum at least in this climate seems very comparable to B. Alfredii in terms of growth rate and performance.

Please share pictures with us, esp. of your C. amazonicum. Would love to see it! Not sure how many private growers in NorCal have success with this species.

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