Veitchia Merrillii vs. Adonidia Merrillii

[Logolight]

They look very identical to me.  Are they closely related or is there a big difference between the two?

Thanks

[cryptobionic]

Both the same. What was once Veitchia merrillii is now Adoninia.

[SunnyFl]

This is another palm which has had a couple of name changes.  As cryptobionic said, they're the same species.

It started out as Adonidia merrillii, then it was put in the genus Veitchia (Veitchia merrillii), but before long, it was returned to Adonidia.  (I recall seeing it somewhere with the label "Veitchia adonidia - which, of course, was never its correct name )

[quaman58]

Part of the confusion is that it is still being marketed at many of the big "box" stores as Veitchia. Whick brings up a question...is there a snowballs chance in h... of them surviving outdoors in San Diego? I'm seeing them more often sold here. And question # 2 is; if it croaks within a year & is brought back under warrantee, does the original grower get charged back? Any growers here that can weigh in on that?

B/R's

Bret

[BobbyinNY]

Part of the confusion is that it is still being marketed at many of the big "box" stores as Veitchia. Whick brings up a question...is there a snowballs chance in h... of them surviving outdoors in San Diego? I'm seeing them more often sold here. And question # 2 is; if it croaks within a year & is brought back under warrantee, does the original grower get charged back? Any growers here that can weigh in on that?

Bret,

As long as San Diego doesn't drop below 40f, they should do fine there....  I've had them outside here during  November when the night temps dropped to the mid 40's for a week at a time and they were fine.

[Jeff Searle]

(quaman58 @ Aug. 16 2006,09:10)

QUOTE

Part of the confusion is that it is still being marketed at many of the big "box" stores as Veitchia. Whick brings up a question...is there a snowballs chance in h... of them surviving outdoors in San Diego? I'm seeing them more often sold here. And question # 2 is; if it croaks within a year & is brought back under warrantee, does the original grower get charged back? Any growers here that can weigh in on that?

B/R's

Bret

Bret,

   Good question.  I don't sell to the HD stores or anyone else for that matter, but I do know that more and more vendors are required to "eat or take back" plants that die or don't sell. It's the stores way of having the upper hand with the vendor, for allowing them to sell .

[BobbyinNY]

Bret,

  Good question.  I don't sell to the HD stores or anyone else for that matter, but I do know that more and more vendors are required to "eat or take back" plants that die or don't sell. It's the stores way of having the upper hand with the vendor, for allowing them to sell

Jeff, this is very sad because it allows consumers to treat the plant any way they want and completely neglect it's needs - knowing that they have no responsibliity...ugghhh..

[spockvr6]

(BobbyinNY @ Aug. 16 2006,09:45)

QUOTE

Bret,

  Good question.  I don't sell to the HD stores or anyone else for that matter, but I do know that more and more vendors are required to "eat or take back" plants that die or don't sell. It's the stores way of having the upper hand with the vendor, for allowing them to sell

Jeff, this is very sad because it allows consumers to treat the plant any way they want and completely neglect it's needs - knowing that they have no responsibliity...ugghhh..

At least for the first year anyway

[quaman58]

Thought I'd ask, as I'm seeing some pretty marginal plants being sold these days. I can't even bring myself to buy a bottle palm (Hyophorbe) despite the fact they're beautiful AND dirt cheap. I saw a book on "palms for SoCal" once, that refered to many of these palms as annuals!!

Bret

[BobbyinNY]

Thought I'd ask, as I'm seeing some pretty marginal plants being sold these days. I can't even bring myself to buy a bottle palm (Hyophorbe) despite the fact they're beautiful AND dirt cheap. I saw a book on "palms for SoCal" once, that refered to many of these palms as annuals!!

Bret

Why not give it a shot... Heck, If I lived in San Diego I'd be planting everything I could... Especially a Bottle - doesn't grow tall.. With a little protection, you could probably keep that going for a long time.

[tikitiki]

(BobbyinNY @ Aug. 16 2006,09:16)

QUOTE

As long as San Diego doesn't drop below 40f, they should do fine there....  I've had them outside here during  November when the night temps dropped to the mid 40's for a week at a time and they were fine.

They do fine here in Orlando and Orlando gets way lower than 40's. I think I'm the only house on the street not to have one.

[BobbyinNY]

They do fine here in Orlando and Orlando gets way lower than 40's. I think I'm the only house on the street not to have one.

Really?? that's good to know... I was under the impression that anything even close to 40f and they were toast..... But a couple of people told me they can take close to 28f.....   I set my limit at 45f just to be sure.... I can't replace them as easy as the guys in Florida..

[quaman58]

Bobby, you're always thinkin'.. Alright, you talked me into it. I'll give one (Bottle) a go, maybe in the pot for the first year or so. I've seen quite a few get slammed into the ground right away, but really suffer during the winter.

Bret

[BobbyinNY]

Bobby, you're always thinkin'.. Alright, you talked me into it. I'll give one (Bottle) a go, maybe in the pot for the first year or so. I've seen quite a few get slammed into the ground right away, but really suffer during the winter.

Bret

Bret, They sell these "plant houses" that are like Polyetheylene tents to cover plants - gives about an extra 5-7f of protection - perfect for a species that is Marginally hardy in an area. I'm gonna get one for my Trachy that  I have in the ground. My thinking is that if I can keep the plant growing as cold as possible, it'll "harden" off as opposed to keeping it warm and babying it.

[AS in SA]

Bobby,

What do these tents look like?  Do you have a link to or picture of one?  I have a bottle in a pot that's doing great right now, but I worry about it suffering through the winter.

Allen...

Santa Ana, CA

[BobbyinNY]

Hi AS....

look on the website: www.acfgreenhouses.com under the title "flowerhouse" and you willl see it.

Bobby

[Walt]

Like Cocos nucifera, I think Adonidia merrillii suffers in So. Cal. due to lack of winter heat, more than absolute low temperature.

I have many A.merrillii in the ground and some winters they get their leaves frost burned. Even in milder winters the first 2-3 spring/summer fronds are stunted from winter cold (relative cold). By relative cold I mean temperatures below 40 degrees.

Based on absolute low temperature readings I've taken over the past nine winters I've concluded my USDA zone rating to be 9b (with one winter 9a, two 10a and the rest 9b). While I may get one morning each winter where low temperatures fall into the high 20s, I do have good winter time heat compared with So. Cal. zones 10b-11. My average daily temperatures are probably 10 degrees higher. My January average high is 74 degrees. Hence, this allows me to grow adonidia palms quite well as long as I protect them during the coldest freeze events.

I grew the adonida palm below from a one gallon size. If you look at the photo in full view you can see the top most (newest) fronds are stunted in size compared to last year's older fronds.

by waltcat100

[BobbyinNY]

Based on absolute low temperature readings I've taken over the past nine winters I've concluded my USDA zone rating to be 9b (with one winter 9a, two 10a and the rest 9b). While I may get one morning each winter where low temperatures fall into the high 20s, I do have good winter time heat compared with So. Cal. zones 10b-11. My average daily temperatures are probably 10 degrees higher. My January average high is 74 degrees. Hence, this allows me to grow adonidia palms quite well as long as I protect them during the coldest freeze events.

I grew the adonida palm below from a one gallon size. If you look at the photo in full view you can see the top most (newest) fronds are stunted in size compared to last year's older fronds.

Walt,

This is a GREAT observation and I think a very accurate one..... Your analysis is dead on with absolute lows vs. constant dismal conditions...

My stuff grows in leaps and bounds for 5 months out of the year due to our temps from late spring thru early fall. My adonidias put out 4 new fronds in the past 3 months, whereas I'll bet that in a place like San Francisco where the night temps drop to the 50's for the summer, stuff probably grows alot slower. So, I think that, in your situation, as long as you get your stuff thru the cold times, the plants have more to look forward to than in a place where it might not drop as low but it also stays relatively cold for a long period.

[Walt]

Bobby: Adonidia loves heat and humidity. They actually start cranking out the fronds once summer kicks in here (in April for me).

The below photos show the variance in temperature in my area during a radiational freeze. If you are in a low area (like I am) nighttime lows can be at least ten degrees colder than areas at higher elevation (Lake Wales Ridge) or around the lakes.

This is what happened to adonida palms in the low areas without protection on 2/14/06:

by waltcat100

These adonidias are about one block from the lake, proving once again that there's no substitute for large bodies of water in Florida to keep temperatures up on radiational freeze nights:

by waltcat100

[BobbyinNY]

WOW..... what a difference....... Did the Trees in the first photo die or did they regrow new fronds?.... That's incredible.... what a difference 10 degrees can make..

[Walt]

Bobby: All of the adonidias have pretty much regrown their crowns (maybe just a few more fronds to go) but most of them are stunted. I venture to say had these palms been on  a northern exposure (the are on the south and southeast side of the guy's house) and/or farther out in the open yard, they would have been even more damaged. Note even the Phoenix roebelenii palms were burned. Also, he had some small Ficus alii trees that got burned and they all died.

Even though the radational freeze event of  Feb. 14th was mostly windless, I noticed far more damage on the north exposure to all my tender plants and palms.

Temperatures in my county were all over the board the morning of 2/14/06. Lakeside temperature at my parent's lot was 39 degrees (at ground level), while I recorded 27 degrees. However, one temperature recording station logged in at 18 degrees! Had 2/14 been an advective freeze the temperature range throughout the county would have been far more consistant.

[SunnyFl]

(Walt @ Aug. 17 2006,18:17)

QUOTE

Temperatures in my county were all over the board the morning of 2/14/06. Lakeside temperature at my parent's lot was 39 degrees (at ground level), while I recorded 27 degrees. However, one temperature recording station logged in at 18 degrees! Had 2/14 been an advective freeze the temperature range throughout the county would have been far more consistant.

This is just astonishing to me - how low the temps got on 2/14, and how much of the state got frost.  And here - nothing.  No freeze, no damage.  The only frost I saw - and I was up obscenely early, worrying about my lil palmies - were a couple of patches on the grass in low spots in the front yard.  Nothing on the plants, no frost at all in the back & side yards.

As for adonidia, they are numerous in this neighborhood, and they've been there since at least the late 90's.  There are also some bottles, and I haven't seen anyone doing any protection.  Except moi.  There was one (frost-free) cold snap about 4 or so years ago that claimed a few fronds on my spindle.  The adonidias weren't even fazed.

But I'm still going to check on the "plant houses" that Bobby posted about.  Cuz sooner or later, we're gonna get nailed.  Count on it

[spockvr6]

(SunnyFl @ Aug. 17 2006,22:17)

QUOTE

This is just astonishing to me - how low the temps got on 2/14, and how much of the state got frost.  And here - nothing.  No freeze, no damage.  The only frost I saw - and I was up obscenely early, worrying about my lil palmies - were a couple of patches on the grass in low spots in the front yard.  Nothing on the plants, no frost at all in the back & side yards.

Such are the advantages of having your neighbors's houses close by

In the past few years I have learned just how important this is as far as frost protection goes.   Im all but convinced that I will never see frost in my side yards between my house and my neighbors.  

There is an artificial climate in this area and I am taking advantage of it!  You have never seen palms planted so close to a house as I have planted some of mine

[Logolight]

Having nice palms like that, I'd consider using smudge pots for the cold nights.

[SunnyFl]

(spockvr6 @ Aug. 18 2006,06:37)

QUOTE

Such are the advantages of having your neighbors's houses close by

In the past few years I have learned just how important this is as far as frost protection goes.   Im all but convinced that I will never see frost in my side yards between my house and my neighbors.  

There is an artificial climate in this area and I am taking advantage of it!  You have never seen palms planted so close to a house as I have planted some of mine

Oh really?  You haven't seen how close I' ve planted a palm to my house - okay, it's a very special palm, but it's real close.    The only problem will be - if this particular glauca ever grows up, I may have to remove some soffit!  

We should take pics and compare our plantings.

You're right about close proximity of houses, though.  My side yard was where I kept all my potted lovelies - also to protect from wind.  But now that the shade from the oak is gone, I'll have to find another spot.

[spockvr6]

(SunnyFl @ Aug. 18 2006,23:26)

QUOTE

Oh really?  You haven't seen how close I' ve planted a palm to my house - okay, it's a very special palm, but it's real close.    The only problem will be - if this particular glauca ever grows up, I may have to remove some soffit!  

We should take pics and compare our plantings.

You're right about close proximity of houses, though.  My side yard was where I kept all my potted lovelies - also to protect from wind.  But now that the shade from the oak is gone, I'll have to find another spot.

I guess I am due for another round of yard pics.  (I do this every once in awhile as I can look back and see how things have grown).

So, Ill take the pics today and maybe we can start a thread entitled "How Close Can you Go"!

[spockvr6]

(spockvr6 @ Aug. 19 2006,07:10)

QUOTE

(SunnyFl @ Aug. 18 2006,23:26)

QUOTE

Oh really?  You haven't seen how close I' ve planted a palm to my house - okay, it's a very special palm, but it's real close.    The only problem will be - if this particular glauca ever grows up, I may have to remove some soffit!  

We should take pics and compare our plantings.

You're right about close proximity of houses, though.  My side yard was where I kept all my potted lovelies - also to protect from wind.  But now that the shade from the oak is gone, I'll have to find another spot.

I guess I am due for another round of yard pics.  (I do this every once in awhile as I can look back and see how things have grown).

So, Ill take the pics today and maybe we can start a thread entitled "How Close Can you Go"!

Sunny - See the "How Close Can You Go" thread I just started!