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Zone 11


bubba

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Jack, My source was the National Climatic Data Center, which reflects a temperature low for LA Airport at 23 degrees F. and indicates the data goes back 67 years.

What you look for is what is looking

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Bubba is siting LA airport (Santa Monica/beach area) and El Hoagie is siting Downtown LA 20 miles further inland and surrounded by concrete jungle.

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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discrepencies like that never stopped any debate in any of the other forums :D (especially the one we will no longer speak of...)

the "prince of snarkness."

 

still "warning-free."

 

san diego,california,left coast.

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Hey you could probably carry more palms if you put down that grudge. :cool:

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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go fetch me something to hit you with! :laugh:

the "prince of snarkness."

 

still "warning-free."

 

san diego,california,left coast.

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Here's a thousand dollars, from your wallet.  Hit away.

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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You two are so cute when you play together.

Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

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Beginning with post 43, read Paul and Matt's banter, but "hear" Paul with Groucho Marx voice, and Matt with Chico's voice. It works.

I gotta go to bed....

Zone 9b/10a, Sunset Zone 22

7 miles inland. Elevation 120ft (37m)

Average annual low temp: 30F (-1C)

Average annual rainfall: 8" (20cm)

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  • 2 weeks later...

(ruskinPalms @ Oct. 13 2007,22:36)

QUOTE
I think there is probably zone 11 in California that is big enough to be painted on a map. I think the point that happ is trying to make is that even though it is zone 11, it still kinda sucks. Too cool for too long for a lot tropical palm species. Way too many nights in the 40's with days that may not warm up much at all. Throw a winter rainfall pattern on top of that with realatively cool summers compared to the southeast U.S. and then you can start to see the challenge of palm growing even if it is technically zone 11 by the USDA definitions. That being said, zone 10 and 11 areas of california can look every bit as tropical and lush as zone 10 and 11 areas of FL, just with different palm species that like the cool, but not freezing, temperate/med climate.  The whole california frost debate continues I see. Like it has been stated, the freeze last year was too dry for frost to form. That is not to say that there is not frost in california.  I can't even guess how often it happens there in cali but for my own record keeping here, I define a "frost event" as any time there is any kind of frozen water not from precipitation observable on anything in the area be it only a few flakes on the tops of the cars, windshields and house roofs to an all out white washing like what happened here most recently in feb 2006.  For time period oct 2006 through mar 2007, I observed "frost" by my definition 3 times at my house. 2 times were only car tops and roofs, 1 time a few blades of grass had some frost very sporadically. I am pretty sure that areas deep into southeast florida had frost by my definition a few times last year too. I remember folks reporting car top and windshild ice with temps as high as the low 40's F last year. So my point with all the talk about frost is that a zone 11 is not necessarily frost free. Anyone know if there has ever been frost of any kind in Key West? Cuba? Bahamas? Bermuda?  Interestingly, I tried to get people to make their own zone map based upon their best guess, data they can find, and what grows in the area. I couldn't find the thread but here is the last revision of the map I tried to make for the Tampa Bay area. I went through a few revisions and made adjustments based upon peoples' critique from this forum. This map is still open for critique and revision :)

ZoneMapwithLegend-1.jpg

How do you make these map?  Do you use some sort of graphic over a road map or something?  I am thinking of doing one for the Brevard county/Orlando area.

Thanks,

Jimmy

Brevard County, Fl

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I just used microsoft paint and borrowed a map from mapquest. It seems to work out ok. I orginally wanted to get other people to make zone maps then put them on this board for critique from other members in the hopes of making more accurate zone maps that dipict as small a micro climate as one wants to include.

Parrish, FL

Zone 9B

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Here's one I made a while back of San Diego County. I took one of the zone maps you can find online, and layered it with a highway and a river/lake map. Then I made the zones follow the rivers downhill. I have no clue if the zone map I started with was accurate. I'm also sure you could get a topo map and give the hilltops a bump into the next zone also.

post-662-1193775424_thumb.jpg

Zone 9b/10a, Sunset Zone 22

7 miles inland. Elevation 120ft (37m)

Average annual low temp: 30F (-1C)

Average annual rainfall: 8" (20cm)

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Actually, I should not be drawing climate maps while being half way asleep (so to speak).  

I will get back to you folks when my memory starts serving me better.  

Jimmy

Brevard County, Fl

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Jimbean, I think your map is too conservative.  If you look at the long term averages, I bet it isn't that cold on average in the interior.  Also think more parts of Orlando are zone 10A on average.  I have a hard time believing interior FL south of Orlando gets down to 22-25 on AVERAGE (key word average).  Once in a while sure, but not on average.   Remember this is average winter low, not what it could get in a severe winter.

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Absolutely love those maps.

I can't figure out what all the fuss is over this zone 11 deal. If there were to be a zone 11 somewhere in SoCal, it doesn't mean that you can suddenly run out and plant cyrtostachys and cocos all over the place. I'm not sure about what this thread is all about? Zones don't mean as much to us here as they would in Florida or Texas or the Carolinas.

If I'm in zone 10b, so called, then why was I freezing my a** off at 7AM this morning when it was 55 degrees?  ???

Coastal San Diego, California

Z10b

Dry summer subtropical/Mediterranean

warm summer/mild winter

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I think it's great to make these detailed maps, but I must add that the San Diego map needs a lot of fleshing out...since most of the area is mesas and canyons and lots of mountains/foothills to the east and up around the Escondido area, there are so many microclimates that this would just very much be a starting point...but having grown up there and still visiting regularly I can say that the 10b area could probably be defined as west of the I-5 away from the low-lying river/lagoon canyon/valley areas as you have some of them mapped already. South of Mission Valley (I-8) you can probably include everything west of 805 (basically the downtown and Balboa Park areas) as 10B except, again, for any canyons where cold air would settle. Also many of the eastern areas, like Ramona, should be more like 9a/b, out there it basically freezes every morning in the winter. And frosts are a regular occurrence in most of the areas marked as 10a (e.g., the lower-lying areas of Vista, Poway). Coronado, Point Loma and probably the west-facing slopes of Mt. Soledad and downtown La Jolla would classify as 11a, or at least very close to that. It's very complicated to draw zone-maps in California!!! In the January freeze, apparently some areas that went into the teens were within viewing distance of places that remained frostless! I'll bet Phil Bergman would have a very good handle on more details for this area.

Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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Guys, I have spent most of my 50+ year life in the computer science field.  One that I learned early on is not to try to turn art into a science.  The weather is art, painted by nature with a broad, sloppy, and inconsistant brush.  Kind of reminds me of computer users.  You will never get past educated guesses, so leave it as art and appreciate both its beauty and inconsistency.  Get the marguaritas ready so every now and then when you have to say "I'll be damned, look at that."

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Hi Jim. Thanks for working on the maps. They look good so far. The first revision of the map I did was too cold, the second too warm then the third is the one that all of the folks that live in tampa area agreed upon though it still has flaws for sure. My first bit of advice would be to give the areas around the big lakes around orlando a little more heat, even in polk county too. Also, I think you took a more challenging area to tackle than tampa bay area because you also have to start taking ridge that runs down the center of the state into account. I think you have the coastal areas pretty good except I think you probably could extend the light green right around the barrier islands around merrit island - and even on into merrit island itself. One of our forum members has not recorded a freezing temperature out on merrit island since 1989. I think the northern east coast barrier islands are very warm on average, but they are not spared during the big freezes. Same goes for the west coast barrier islands all the way up to anclote key. I would almost bet that egmont key in the mouth of tampa bay and also anna maria island are true zone 11 areas, but they have seen severe freezes historically.

As for the original topic of this thread, REMEMBER, the zone system created by the government only takes into account the average lowest temp for each winter. This is why true zone 11 areas exist in california even though they are likely to be either in the mddle of the pacific like the channel islands, or very very close to the coast - or even a freakishly well cold drained hillside in an urban heat island area. The coldest winter low averaged over several years is greater than 40 F, thus zone 11. As far as size of the areas to show up on maps, I am not sure which state (between FL and CA) has more area that is tr zone 11. In FL, in my opinion, true zone 11 areas are limted to the keys and a few select barrier islands on the west coast and then the barrier islands from about Jupiter island southward on the east coast. This isn't a huge amount of territory.

As far as what plants that grow in FL Z11 compared to CA Z11, well I personally prefer what grows well in the FL Z11 areas. True Z11 in CA is likely to be quite chilly pretty much the whole year due to likely close proximity to the cool pacific waters. I guess there are a lot of neat plants suited to that climate, but as many palms and tropicals that one plants in the cool Z11, it just would not give me the tropical vibe like living in a warm Z11 (or even a warm Z9B). This is just my opinion and since I have never lived in california and only have visited, it is possible that the cool Z11 would start to feel more tropical if I lived and worked there longer.

Parrish, FL

Zone 9B

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(ruskinPalms @ Nov. 01 2007,18:07)

QUOTE
Hi Jim. Thanks for working on the maps. They look good so far. The first revision of the map I did was too cold, the second too warm then the third is the one that all of the folks that live in tampa area agreed upon though it still has flaws for sure. My first bit of advice would be to give the areas around the big lakes around orlando a little more heat, even in polk county too. Also, I think you took a more challenging area to tackle than tampa bay area because you also have to start taking ridge that runs down the center of the state into account. I think you have the coastal areas pretty good except I think you probably could extend the light green right around the barrier islands around merrit island - and even on into merrit island itself. One of our forum members has not recorded a freezing temperature out on merrit island since 1989. I think the northern east coast barrier islands are very warm on average, but they are not spared during the big freezes. Same goes for the west coast barrier islands all the way up to anclote key. I would almost bet that egmont key in the mouth of tampa bay and also anna maria island are true zone 11 areas, but they have seen severe freezes historically.

Yes, I agree with you that Orlando is a bit challenging.  In fact, the first version I did is way off!  That is why the maps that I did after that were just the coastal areas.  I used to travel up and down the Florida East coast, from Brevard county to Miami every so often, so I feel pretty comfortable with most of it.  You might be right about Merritt Island though, I'll have to double check on the data that I have available, and maybe even take a couple of hours (if I ever have it) to drive around that area to get a better feel for the probable average minimums.

Maybe I should make another tread for all of this, since this is supposed to be about zone 11.

Brevard County, Fl

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Someone really needs to morph both the USDA growing zones and the heat zones and come up with a new map. But, here in SoCal, I'm not even sure that would give you more of a direction on what you can grow.

Coastal San Diego, California

Z10b

Dry summer subtropical/Mediterranean

warm summer/mild winter

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I guess this map I found here is the final authority...

post-662-1194033666_thumb.jpg

Zone 9b/10a, Sunset Zone 22

7 miles inland. Elevation 120ft (37m)

Average annual low temp: 30F (-1C)

Average annual rainfall: 8" (20cm)

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Read mild snarkism in that last post. I'm sure no one here thinks there's that much Zone 11 real estate in SoCal. Sadly, there is no better map online.

The Sunset map dials it down extremely well, but none of us use there system because each zone is defined differently.

Zone 9b/10a, Sunset Zone 22

7 miles inland. Elevation 120ft (37m)

Average annual low temp: 30F (-1C)

Average annual rainfall: 8" (20cm)

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Agree, Terry that the map is an inaccurate broad brush of the zones.  Too bad  :laugh:

My understanding of topography & climate suggests wide/spread-out USDA 11 zone in coastal So. California.

Wish I had the technical skill to produce a map.  Here are regions that predominately report lowest yearly minimum temperature 40F/4.4c or above each year:

Foothills of Simi Valley & Santa Susana Mts [above Granada Hills/Chatsworth/San Fernando].  Foothills of San Gabriel Mts [above Tujunga/La Crescenta/La Canada into Altadena/Sierra Madra.  The Santa Monica Range from Malibu to Montebello including hills of Santa Monica/Hollywood/Silverlake/El Sereno etc.

In Orange Co : foothills of Santa Ana Mts [La Puente/La Habra/Brea/Yorba Linda/Rancho Santa Margarita], San Joaguin Hills [Laguna Niguel/Mission Viejo].  Also Newport Beach/San Clemente.

San Diego County must be the hardest to map since the peninsular mountains are quite a ways from the ocean and other coastal mountains are less apparent [above 2000' ]. There's a network of foothills/canyons/mesas/valleys dotted with zone 11.  San Diego bayside is very close to being in the zone [especially with a little elevation - blooming poinciana for crying out loud  :laugh:

Ok, Terry map it, my man  :P

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

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Hi All,

Great topic. Non-scientific rambling below.

Michael-I live in one of the banana belts in the Hollywood Hills. I am in the middle of a canyon on a downward slope. I am on the sunny side or the "make my hill slide in major rainstorm cause I face the right way" side of the canyon.

This area was the original area used to grow poinsettias and pineapples. This was in the teens and 1920s. The plumeria here get Hawaiian sized and are more than 50 years old in places. Singapore plumeria grow here and in in Echo Park.

I think that Sunset zone 23 could be split to show the Zone 11 areas-thermal belts in canyons and on hillsides. It's fairly clear from Somis in the north to San Diego in the south. In my 10 years here, we've seen brief upper 30s in parts of the yard, but we usually hang around 48-49 in December/January.

At the top of the canyon or at the bottom, it's much colder. And this phenomenon is noted in the Sunset Books of Western Gardening for Zones 23 & 24.

We're not H1 but more like H2  in the Sunset zones. My test his year: White Torch Ginger. If it blooms next year, I'll try the coconut.

Thanks,

David

Hollywood Hills West, Los Angeles, CA USA

Southwest facing canyon | Altitude 600 - 775 feet | Decomposing granite
USDA Zone 10b | AHS 6 | Sunset Zone 23 | Köppen Csb | No frost or freezes
Average Low 49 F°/9.4 C° | Average High 79 F°/28.8 C° | Average Rainfall 20"/50.8 cm

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Nicely articulated, David  :D  The real/tangible signs of USDA 11 are the plants [brugmansia/cannas/banana flower/fruit all year, dombeya/plumeria/hibiscus get huge

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here's an example of the zone 11 difference [it's the night temperature's  :P

GETTY CENTER : 88 /  69

HAWTHORNE : 89 /  59

LAX  :  84 /  58

DOWNTOWN/USC : 87 /  56

UCLA : 87 /  66

CHATSWORTH : 88 /  61

NORTHRIDGE : 89 /  62

PASADENA : 87 /  56

SAN GABRIEL : 90 /  54

SIMI VALLEY : 82 /  66

THOUSAND OAKS :   86 /  61

FULLERTON :   93 /  55

ANAHEIM  : 93 /  61

SANTA ANA : 93 / 57  

CORONA :  91 /  46

FALLBROOK : 86 /  65 [not consistently zone 11  :(

ESCONDIDO : 86 /  51

RANCHO SAN PASQUAL :  91 /  47

SAN DIEGO : 80 / 57

Night winds are warm/balmy  :cool:

LA/Mt Washington : 89 / 64

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

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Happ, I do not mean to rain on your Zone 11 parade but let me paraphrase the Department of Agriculture's stated intent in preparation of it's Plant Hardiness Zone Map."Recognizing that generally the most important adaptation of landscape plants to their environment is survival through winter, a Plant Hardiness Zone Map was developed, which divides the US into 11 zones."If this is their intent, they have failed miserably.You and they only need to review the Fairchild shots,Tiki Riki's shots or any of Jeff Searle's shots to see that the USDA's criteria is ridiculously flawed, arcane,out of touch with reality...The point is that why continue to propogate this idiotic criteria when there are many other criteria such as Koppen or Sunset(25) that are much closer to the reality under your nose.

What you look for is what is looking

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Bubba

This is your thread.  You challenged the designation of USDA zone 11 in California as "urban myths." Citing the deceased landscape architect, Desmond Muirhead in his book "Palms" (1959) you offered anecdotal information and your personal opinion that zone 11 does not exist in California.  

"Recognizing that generally the most important adaptation of landscape plants to their environment is survival through winter, a Plant Hardiness Zone Map was developed, which divides the US into 11 zones."

The survival of my palm trees last January was due to the fact that the coldest minimum for the winter was 37F [ 2 nights below 40F.  It was painful to see the photos fellow Californios posted of frost and sub-freezing damage since I had none [due to elevation/topography/wind/climate].  Nothing too exotic [archontophoenix, howea, euterpe, veitchia, roystonea, ravenea, areca, wodyetia, etc], it was, none-the-less a relief that these trees were not damaged.  Bolden by the reality that frost essentially does not occur & average coldest annual minimum is above 40F, I now have planted several more palms, thanks to Danny/Palmazon  :P

Bubba

I continually visit Fairchild and go orgasmic over the variety & mature beauty of the palms and tropical plants.  You are correct, in my opinion, that the gardens of So. Florida cannot be realistically replicated in Southern California.  I wish the climate of Los Angeles was much wetter and that spring would warm up much faster  :(

the reality under your nose

My "reality" of recording daily temperatures since 1980 is that frost does not occur, monthly winter minimums average 50F+ [maximums 69F-72F].  There are no places at 33N latitude in the US that can match the winter warmth of So. California and many areas much farther south are quite a bit colder [i.e. Texas].

Florida is warmer than California in winter but more prone to the occasional rare frost.  

As far as raining on my parade, as you write, if only it would  :laugh: but there is a perverse upside to drought [it allows poinciana to flower

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

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(happ @ Nov. 04 2007,09:26)

QUOTE
Nicely articulated, David  :D  The real/tangible signs of USDA 11 are the plants [brugmansia/cannas/banana flower/fruit all year, dombeya/plumeria/hibiscus get huge

Happ, I'd have to contend your point about the plumeria.  They seem to get huge no matter where you plant them here in SoCal.  It's just a matter of age.  I've seen them tree size, over the roof line here in Lemon Grove 10a.  I guess if you planted one in the 50's when the houses were originally built they're gonna be big no matter what.

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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(happ @ Nov. 04 2007,09:26)

Nicely articulated, David    The real/tangible signs of USDA 11 are the plants [brugmansia/cannas/banana flower/fruit all year, dombeya/plumeria/hibiscus get huge

Happ, I'd have to contend your point about the plumeria.  They seem to get huge no matter where you plant them here in SoCal.  It's just a matter of age.  I've seen them tree size, over the roof line here in Lemon Grove 10a.  I guess if you planted one in the 50's when the houses were originally built they're gonna be big no matter what.

And to further confuse things, in FL all those plants can be quite large in the upper end of 9b.

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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Happ,Let me restate what I believe to be the analysis in this thread. I first stated that no Zone 11 could exist in California because the Micro-climates that fulfilled this requirement were too small to be drawn on a map.I never said that Zone 11 micro-climates did not exist in California because they clearly do.It was then argued that a Zone did not have to be large enough to be seen on a map but could be a single point.To this I responded that if a single point represented the full requirement for Zone 11 inclusion, the USDA map limiting Zone 11 in Florida to the Key's, is flawed because there are certainly points in the Palm Beach area near the beach(Gulfstream/85 degree water/one mile from shore)where the temperature has never dropped below 40 degrees F. After giving consideration to the whole Zone 11 issue, it became readily apparent that the USDA Plant Hardiness Zone Map does not fulfill it's stated purpose of "giving an accurate criteria to gauge plants survival through winter."As you correctly state, the evidence is that which is growing in the ground.The fact is that warm temperatures on a consistent basis are much more important in establishing the level of tropical palm or plant that will survive a winter than a rare frost episode.To quote Desmond Muirhead in "Palms"(old but not outdated)"Incidentally, it is often the several months of these cold nights in California which are the limiting factors to the growth of sub-tropical palms, rather than the low freezing temperatures."With that said, the point is that Koppen or Sunset are much better gauges for what survives in the ground rather than the fatally flawed USDA Zone criteria. If you disagree, show me your coconuts and not that poor guy down in Newport Beach.

What you look for is what is looking

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(bubba @ Nov. 14 2007,16:23)

QUOTE
and not that poor guy down in Newport Beach.

OMG Bubba!  You had me rolling with that one!

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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Bubba

At risk of becoming repetitive, the region that clearly/historically/scientifically meet USDA zone 11 standards in So. California are much more extensive than areas around Palm Beach, Florida.  I have identified an area of Los Angeles [santa Monica Range/Simi Hills/Santa Susana Mts/Verdugo Hills/San Rafael Hills/parts of San Gabriel Mts/Puente Hills/parts of Santa Ana mts. etc] in zone 11.  Hopefully someone with graphic skills will create a map.  Until then various gardening organizations have attempted to "broad-brush" the zone on maps [as already posted].

I'm glad & not at all surprised to read that parts of Palm Beach & southern most Florida are also USDA zone 11.  Perhaps even extreme south Texas meets zone 11 criteria.  

After giving consideration to the whole Zone 11 issue, it became readily apparent that the USDA Plant Hardiness Zone Map does not fulfill it's stated purpose of "giving an accurate criteria to gauge plants survival through winter."

You inadvertently keep making my point.  Palm trees listed as appropriate for zone 11 in many publications survive in SoCal where the average coldest temperature is above 40F.  If you compare these same palms with those growing in Florida then it is quite evident that they do not thrive in California [look at the photos posted; the palms are smaller and less full than one would observe in Florida  :(  .  Everything is slower due to the coolness of the climate in California.  But freezing temps do not kill these palms because it doesn’t freeze!

I don't see a disagreement other than your statements like:

The point of my post is that there cannot be any true Zone 11's in California
.  Respectfully, you are wrong.

It's exasperating having to cite over and over the evidence to the contrary.  

BTW I have not planted cocos in the ground but fully believe that they will survive in my area. But who wants a miniature/non-fruiting coconut palm?  On the other hand, I will transplant one of my coco palms next spring just to prove to you that they can grow in California  :laugh:

Do you have something against California?

Los Angeles/Pasadena

34° 10' N   118° 18' W

Elevation: 910'/278m

January Average Hi/Lo: 69F/50F

July Average Hi/Lo: 88F/66F

Average Rainfall: 19"/48cm

USDA 11/Sunset 23

http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?MTW

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(bubba @ Nov. 14 2007,09:37)

QUOTE
The point is that why continue to propogate this idiotic criteria when there are many other criteria such as Koppen or Sunset(25) that are much closer to the reality under your nose.

Bubba,

Best to give up, your not going to convince Happ. :;):

Much like his fellow Californian, Charlton Heston of the NRA...

You are going to have to pry that ZONE 11 designation from his COLD DEAD FINGERS! :D

Scott

Titusville, FL

1/2 mile from the Indian River

USDA Zone COLD

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