Saguaro?

[gurugu]

I was sold this cactus as Saguaro (Carnegia gigantea),

 

 

but I´m not so sure because this other one is 99% saguaro.

 

 

but it is thinner at the base, not so red at the head, and with shorter espines than the previous one.

What do you think?

 

 

[ahosey01]

12 hours ago, gurugu said:

I was sold this cactus as Saguaro (Carnegia gigantea),

 

 

but I´m not so sure because this other one is 99% saguaro.

 

 

but it is thinner at the base, not so red at the head, and with shorter espines than the previous one.

What do you think?

 

 

Looks like a saguaro to me.  I have seen some peculiar variation just like this in the wild seedlings around my house.

[gurugu]

8 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

Looks like a saguaro to me.  I have seen some peculiar variation just like this in the wild seedlings around my house.

Thanks. It"s odd because I have two of each, and both show the same pattern. That"s why I thought they could be different species. 

I intend to plant them in the ground, in sand y soil. I don"t know how they will fare in my rainy weather (winter wise). 

[ahosey01]

8 hours ago, gurugu said:

Thanks. It"s odd because I have two of each, and both show the same pattern. That"s why I thought they could be different species. 

I intend to plant them in the ground, in sand y soil. I don"t know how they will fare in my rainy weather (winter wise). 

Honestly the biggest risk with these getting a lot of water is that they get very heavy and inclined to topple.

I might try and make a big mound of sand and perlite and perhaps a limited amount of organic soil, then plant them in there.  Depending on how much rain you get per year.

[GeneAZ]

You should plant in rocks, not soil, not fine gravel.  Even here in their native desert, they do best in rather a lot of rock for most of the top two feet of open ground.  Their roots grow shallow in a fan shape around the trunk and extending enormously in all directions -- but fairly shallow, maybe two or three feet.  We only get 6 or 8 inches of rain a year here, and four months of super hot temperatures every day all day.  These things are used to HOT SUN and HOT NIGHTS and severe LOW HUMIDITY.

If you have humidity, that will provide plenty of moisture which will be absorbed ambiently through the skin.  You'd be surprised how dry you have to keep these in a mild climate.

[Silas_Sancona]

4 hours ago, GeneAZ said:

You should plant in rocks, not soil, not fine gravel.  Even here in their native desert, they do best in rather a lot of rock for most of the top two feet of open ground.  Their roots grow shallow in a fan shape around the trunk and extending enormously in all directions -- but fairly shallow, maybe two or three feet.  We only get 6 or 8 inches of rain a year here, and four months of super hot temperatures every day all day.  These things are used to HOT SUN and HOT NIGHTS and severe LOW HUMIDITY.

If you have humidity, that will provide plenty of moisture which will be absorbed ambiently through the skin.  You'd be surprised how dry you have to keep these in a mild climate.

The darn things can grow straight out of solid rock, and peeking out from up on cliff faces.. Definitely don't need much water ..at all.. lol






Watering too much = trouble, even here where they're native.. Is one reason big specimens in landscapes can topple over.  The extreme heat seen here in 2020  also negatively effected landscape specimens.  Out in the desert, some of the die hard researchers who study them are noticing heat induced migration to cooler, less intensely hot north facing slopes in some areas. ( More mortality among older specimens / less recruitment among those on south facing slopes, healthier plants/ more youngins'  on north facing slopes )

The species as a whole could eventually shift a majority of its core range north and west out of AZ in time also.  I'm curious which giant, columnar cactus species in Sonora would fill the newly opened niche once Saguaro aren't filling most of it.

[gurugu]

12 hours ago, GeneAZ said:

You should plant in rocks, not soil, not fine gravel.  Even here in their native desert, they do best in rather a lot of rock for most of the top two feet of open ground.  Their roots grow shallow in a fan shape around the trunk and extending enormously in all directions -- but fairly shallow, maybe two or three feet.  We only get 6 or 8 inches of rain a year here, and four months of super hot temperatures every day all day.  These things are used to HOT SUN and HOT NIGHTS and severe LOW HUMIDITY.

If you have humidity, that will provide plenty of moisture which will be absorbed ambiently through the skin.  You'd be surprised how dry you have to keep these in a mild climate.

12 hours ago, GeneAZ said:

You should plant in rocks, not soil, not fine gravel.  Even here in their native desert, they do best in rather a lot of rock for most of the top two feet of open ground.  Their roots grow shallow in a fan shape around the trunk and extending enormously in all directions -- but fairly shallow, maybe two or three feet.  We only get 6 or 8 inches of rain a year here, and four months of super hot temperatures every day all day.  These things are used to HOT SUN and HOT NIGHTS and severe LOW HUMIDITY.

If you have humidity, that will provide plenty of moisture which will be absorbed ambiently through the skin.  You'd be surprised how dry you have to keep these in a mild climate.

 

7 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

The darn things can grow straight out of solid rock, and peeking out from up on cliff faces.. Definitely don't need much water ..at all.. lol






Watering too much = trouble, even here where they're native.. Is one reason big specimens in landscapes can topple over.  The extreme heat seen here in 2020  also negatively effected landscape specimens.  Out in the desert, some of the die hard researchers who study them are noticing heat induced migration to cooler, less intensely hot north facing slopes in some areas. ( More mortality among older specimens / less recruitment among those on south facing slopes, healthier plants/ more youngins'  on north facing slopes )

The species as a whole could eventually shift a majority of its core range north and west out of AZ in time also.  I'm curious which giant, columnar cactus species in Sonora would fill the newly opened niche once Saguaro aren't filling most of it.

Thanks you all for this good and interesting piece of information, coming from people who live in Saguaro habitat. 

I want to set up a small parterre for my tiny collection of cacti. I"ll use train sleepers to shape it round, and will pour sand in it. 

The soil is already 2 mts deep of  pure sand mixed with little organic soil.  I hope this will be drainy enough for the cacti since this is a very rainy place: 1.200 ltrs of rain a year. Being July the driest with 59 ltrs, and November the wettest with 150 ltrs. 

Despite all this rain, you can see some cacti growing in the surroundings. Most of them on the east and south faces of buildings  under the eaves of houses.  And some in the open space.

With so much rain, they grow quite tall if they are in a place with good drainage and provided they don"t get rot. 

Most surely, I won"t have succes since we suffer endless rainy spells from late fall to early spring, but, at least, I"ll give it a try because cacti in pots tend to decline in time. 

 

[Silas_Sancona]

6 minutes ago, gurugu said:

 

It really depends on the cacti.. and what they're grown in ..and how they're handled of course.. I have tons ( Well, not literally, haha ) that have been in pots for years that have lived in Mediterranean climate San Jose, CA.. Hot and wet Florida,  and now here ..in the hot and dry Sonoran desert of Arizona and most have done fine..  That said, there are numerous species / genera that melt Florida heat / humidity, or fry pretty quickly in our dry heat all that well..

It sounds weird to some people but here, when temperatures exceed about 78-82F or so overnight, you want to avoid watering pretty much -any- cactus.. especially potted specimens.  The reason being they end up cooking / rotting. Yes, lol, even cacti need to chill out a bit at night ( that is actually when most "breathe" ).  Oddly enough, water provided by rainfall on our hot and humid nights doesn't seem to hurt most things ..i certainly haven't noticed any ill effects within my own collection or among all the things i see in habitat.

With Saguaro,  remember that Arizona, ...well.. a good % of the state where they grow, experiences two rainy seasons.. One in winter,  which can be quite wet ( ...and chilly at times. Some parts of the foothills up this way, and down around Tucson can see a trace to a few inches of snow occasionally as well.  )  and our summer Monsoon season, which also can be pretty wet ...when it wants to be..  All that said, yes, " wet " in Arizona is rarely as wet as almost anywhere else in the U.S., or other parts of the world.

The trick to keeping them happy is letting nature do 99% of the watering.

Your idea for creating an ideal spot for them is excellent, though i might add in gravel to the sandy mix since really fine grained sand can hold a lot of water, which can choke out roots/ invite  root rot.  Here, while the surface of the soil might seem dense and full of clay / fine sand in some areas where Saguaro grow, dig down a bit and it is full of rock of various size ..so excess moisture drains off pretty well - in most cases-
 



 

[Meangreen94z]

They don’t like wet cold and may rot if the temperatures suddenly drop in a cold front from their growth threshold to cold overnight lows. I can confirm they don’t seem to mind heavy rainfall during warm temperatures as long as they aren’t in standing water. I had a specimen that was about 3 feet tall when Hurricane Harvey dumped 50+ inches in 3 days in Houston. The Saguaro was in ground and only slightly raised a few inches over soggy clay soil. It didn’t seem to mind at all. I lost it later when it rained and dropped from around 75°F during the day to high 30’s overnight. It had survived that situation in the past though. 

[gurugu]

5 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

It really depends on the cacti.. and what they're grown in ..and how they're handled of course.. I have tons ( Well, not literally, haha ) that have been in pots for years that have lived in Mediterranean climate San Jose, CA.. Hot and wet Florida,  and now here ..in the hot and dry Sonoran desert of Arizona and most have done fine..  That said, there are numerous species / genera that melt Florida heat / humidity, or fry pretty quickly in our dry heat all that well..

It sounds weird to some people but here, when temperatures exceed about 78-82F or so overnight, you want to avoid watering pretty much -any- cactus.. especially potted specimens.  The reason being they end up cooking / rotting. Yes, lol, even cacti need to chill out a bit at night ( that is actually when most "breathe" ).  Oddly enough, water provided by rainfall on our hot and humid nights doesn't seem to hurt most things ..i certainly haven't noticed any ill effects within my own collection or among all the things i see in habitat.

With Saguaro,  remember that Arizona, ...well.. a good % of the state where they grow, experiences two rainy seasons.. One in winter,  which can be quite wet ( ...and chilly at times. Some parts of the foothills up this way, and down around Tucson can see a trace to a few inches of snow occasionally as well.  )  and our summer Monsoon season, which also can be pretty wet ...when it wants to be..  All that said, yes, " wet " in Arizona is rarely as wet as almost anywhere else in the U.S., or other parts of the world.

The trick to keeping them happy is letting nature do 99% of the watering.

Your idea for creating an ideal spot for them is excellent, though i might add in gravel to the sandy mix since really fine grained sand can hold a lot of water, which can choke out roots/ invite  root rot.  Here, while the surface of the soil might seem dense and full of clay / fine sand in some areas where Saguaro grow, dig down a bit and it is full of rock of various size ..so excess moisture drains off pretty well - in most cases-
 



 

Here, at construction materials firms, they sell what they call "arrocillo" (small rice), due to its tiny size, which is limestone broken into very small pieces.

I had thought to add it to the sand, to make it not so cloggy. Now I´m determined to do it, keeping your advice.

I could also add peebles. I always try to pick thickest grained sand, because beach sand is too fine/thin, but it is for free too!

5 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

The trick to keeping them happy is letting nature do 99% of the watering.

This is true if it does discontinuosly, but here we can suffer winter rain endlessly for days in a row. It is a fine rain, almost imperceptible, called "sirimiri" ( a basque word) or "orbayo" (a galician/asturian word). It is also called "calabobos",meaning that it only soaks dumbs, because they think it doesn´t rain on them.

Anyway. There are people growing cacti outdoors, and successfuly in Ireland! a much rainy place than here and far less sunny or warm.

That advice of not watering cacti at warm/tropical nights, is extrapolable to, let´s say, palmtrees? No, right?

[gurugu]

1 hour ago, Meangreen94z said:

They don’t like wet cold and may rot if the temperatures suddenly drop in a cold front from their growth threshold to cold overnight lows. I can confirm they don’t seem to mind heavy rainfall during warm temperatures as long as they aren’t in standing water. I had a specimen that was about 3 feet tall when Hurricane Harvey dumped 50+ inches in 3 days in Houston. The Saguaro was in ground and only slightly raised a few inches over soggy clay soil. It didn’t seem to mind at all. I lost it later when it rained and dropped from around 75°F during the day to high 30’s overnight. It had survived that situation in the past though. 

Which overnight lows are you referring to? Luckily weather here is quite stable all year long. It doesn´t fluctuates so much.

As you say, standing water must be lethal to them, that´s why it is advisable to plant it in deep sandy soil.

How old was yours? Is it true they need 30 years to grow just 1 meter?

[Meangreen94z]

30 minutes ago, gurugu said:

Which overnight lows are you referring to? Luckily weather here is quite stable all year long. It doesn´t fluctuates so much.

As you say, standing water must be lethal to them, that´s why it is advisable to plant it in deep sandy soil.

How old was yours? Is it true they need 30 years to grow just 1 meter?

They are very slow growing. If you want something with a similar look, cold hardiness, but faster growing I would look at Trichocereus terscheckii or Neobuxbaumia polylopha. Pachycereus pringlei is another option. I believe they are faster growing than Saguaro but they aren’t as cold hardy. terscheckii and polylopha are hardier than even Saguaro.The few small specimen of Pachycereus pringlei I tried didn’t seem to like a wet climate either. They survived but the skin disfigured.

Saguaro did fine in wet cold as long as it had been consistently colder than their growing temperature threshold. My Saguaro survived a wet icy 19°F(-7.2°C) fine. I just had a light blanket over it, no damage. What they can rot in is when say it’s been 75°F(23.8°C) all week and a cold front comes in with rain and drops temperatures overnight to 37°(2.7°C). This sudden temperature swing while they are in the middle of growing and absorbing water can cause them(or any cactus)to rot. I’ve had them survive that situation fine several times before, but then one day it randomly causes them to rot.Out of what I’ve listed Neobuxbaumia polylopha seems the most tolerant to sudden wet cold from what I’ve seen. 

[gurugu]

1 hour ago, Meangreen94z said:

They are very slow growing. If you want something with a similar look, cold hardiness, but faster growing I would look at Trichocereus terscheckii or Neobuxbaumia polylopha. Pachycereus pringlei is another option. I believe they are faster growing than Saguaro but they aren’t as cold hardy. terscheckii and polylopha are hardier than even Saguaro.The few small specimen of Pachycereus pringlei I tried didn’t seem to like a wet climate either. They survived but the skin disfigured.

Saguaro did fine in wet cold as long as it had been consistently colder than their growing temperature threshold. My Saguaro survived a wet icy 19°F(-7.2°C) fine. I just had a light blanket over it, no damage. What they can rot in is when say it’s been 75°F(23.8°C) all week and a cold front comes in with rain and drops temperatures overnight to 37°(2.7°C). This sudden temperature swing while they are in the middle of growing and absorbing water can cause them(or any cactus)to rot. I’ve had them survive that situation fine several times before, but then one day it randomly causes them to rot.Out of what I’ve listed Neobuxbaumia polylopha seems the most tolerant to sudden wet cold from what I’ve seen. 

Luckily our coldest temperature ever here was around -3ºC. long, long time ago. According to what you say, I´ll have to keep an eye when southern winds blow in winter and temperatures go above 20ºC and suddenly northern cold storms blow in and temperatures drop, but very seldom it freezes, maybe some snow or hail but no freeze. Coldest temperatures here come from the east (Europe, France) but the weather is dry and sunny in the day.

By the way: is this Trichocereus terscheckii or Pachycereus pringlei or none of the two?

 

And this, the one on the right below? Neobuxbaumia polylopha?

 

[Meangreen94z]

Neither . The first looks like Cereus repandus and the second maybe Trichocereus peruvianus or a hybrid with it.

It sounds like your weather shouldn’t give you much of a problem growing Saguaro.

[Silas_Sancona]

3 hours ago, gurugu said:

Here, at construction materials firms, they sell what they call "arrocillo" (small rice), due to its tiny size, which is limestone broken into very small pieces.

I had thought to add it to the sand, to make it not so cloggy. Now I´m determined to do it, keeping your advice.

1: I could also add peebles. I always try to pick thickest grained sand, because beach sand is too fine/thin, but it is for free too!

2: This is true if it does discontinuosly, but here we can suffer winter rain endlessly for days in a row. It is a fine rain, almost imperceptible, called "sirimiri" ( a basque word) or "orbayo" (a galician/asturian word). It is also called "calabobos",meaning that it only soaks dumbs, because they think it doesn´t rain on them.

Anyway. There are people growing cacti outdoors, and successfuly in Ireland! a much rainy place than here and far less sunny or warm.

 

1:  Gravel, Pebbles, whatever landscape material supply places call it there,  yea,  something like that ..in the 1/2" to 1-3" size range ( size of the rocks ) would be great to add..  Large- grained sand, similar to what i pull from washes here for adding to my own soil mixes, is great as well.. ( is sometimes called " Chet" here )  W/ beach sand- type "sand" there just isn't enough pore space between the grains to allow enough water to drain off.. Even in pots, i was quite surprised to see just how much water finer sand retained.

When you mix that with anything high in Clay, really silty clay esp, you get Cement.

2: Interesting,  this sounds like parts of California, esp. right next to the coast where the fog can cause it to drizzle somewhat often at times during the winter ..enough so that the drizzle keeps the ground pretty wet.

3:  Palms would exhibit a different means of " breathing " compared to almost all cacti, and a majority of other Succulent- type plants  so they wouldn't necessarily be adversely effected by watering when night time temps are hot.. Majority of them anyway   ..No doubt there are some " high altitude / Cloud Forest " species that would melt after a week or two of 28-31C overnight lows..

Cacti in particular are " CAM " plants which evolved to keep their stoma closed through the day as a means to avoid moisture loss in arid climates, opening them to breathe only after dark when the air is generally moister / cooler..


Some good articles to read over when you have some free time..

How too much heat can kill Saguaro:

https://azbigmedia.com/business/heres-how-arizonas-extreme-weather-is-killing-the-saguaro/

https://abq.news/2021/07/even-saguaro-cacti-have-had-enough-of-the-heat-az-desert-icons-migrating-to-cooler-weather/


CAM plant info:

https://centralarizonacactus.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/CACSS_Article_Waiting_To_Exhale_Tom_Gatz.pdf

https://biologydictionary.net/cam-plants/