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Key Largo Coconuts

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bubba

Go:25712104-595C-4174-AACA-0BB33C860A77.thumb.jpeg.1514a9a3e12e74a47836def6ab54f5a4.jpeg

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bubba

D0AF12A3-29DF-4A3F-A45D-9F5F7148B8B6.thumb.jpeg.0fb256ff590fb7c4132fe53a83f2dd9f.jpeg

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bubba

8A4E6A0B-B5A6-4416-A75A-C01E0E8672CC.thumb.jpeg.3d3773ad824c2ec2415e3d42c5825902.jpeg

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bubba

4B0E6F87-7992-4219-84C0-07FADABA34EE.thumb.jpeg.c1e977f18a0f404b63d3658d586a90e2.jpeg

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SeanK

Are the fan palms Thrinax radiata?

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bubba

Many, many Thrinax radiata! That stated, this is Copernicia City.  More to come…

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RedRabbit

Thanks for sharing the pictures. I might have thought they’d be a bit taller to be honest, did Key Largo get hit bad by lethal yellowing? 

Edited by RedRabbit
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GottmitAlex
1 hour ago, bubba said:

D0AF12A3-29DF-4A3F-A45D-9F5F7148B8B6.thumb.jpeg.0fb256ff590fb7c4132fe53a83f2dd9f.jpeg

:yay:

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Looking Glass
3 hours ago, bubba said:

Many, many Thrinax radiata! That stated, this is Copernicia City.  More to come…

There’s got to be some really nice Pseudophoenix and Cuban palms, and some really exotic stuff hiding in people’s gardens around there.  

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bubba

Oh ya! More to come!

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Mr. Coconut Palm
19 hours ago, SeanK said:

Are the fan palms Thrinax radiata?

Thrinax radiata are my favorite fan palms.  They should be used more in landscaping here on the coast in Corpus Christi and in the Rio Grande Valley.

John

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Mr. Coconut Palm
19 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Thanks for sharing the pictures. I might have thought they’d be a bit taller to be honest, did Key Largo get hit bad by lethal yellowing? 

Me too.  I would have thought that most of the mature Jamaican Talls there would be at least 15 to 20 ft. taller.

John

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mnorell
35 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Me too.  I would have thought that most of the mature Jamaican Talls there would be at least 15 to 20 ft. taller.

John

Jamaican Talls generally have much larger leaves and fuller crowns than those in these photos. You can't always tell the variety from a photo due to lack of fruit as well as poor appearance of the trees from overpruning and subsequent lack of fertilization to restore the removed nutrients. Jamaicans are not common these days after the LY wipeout of the late 20th century, but they still exist in the Keys (and a few are indeed quite tall). Those of us who have them on our properties in the Keys usually trade the fruits/sprouts amongst neighbors/friends...those who know and care about them, that is. Green Malays are the most commonly grown/sold and they are nice but don't have the huge boles and spectacular crowns of the Jamaican Talls. Aside from the Green Malay (and some MayPans), it is the Panama Tall and Malay Gold types that dominate the landscape in the Keys. Jamaicans are also quite slow to get going. (Panamas, on the other hand, are like racehorses.) If you want to see what south Florida used to look like, with dense stands of Jamaican Talls, take a look at the John Ford film, They Were Expendable. It was shot on Key Biscayne doubling the Philippines and the look with those coconuts will leave an impression! One YouTube example, here: They Were Expendable scene

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bubba

More to come. As it relates to the size of the Coconut palms, scale is a difficult thing to conjure down here because things are so large. As it relates to Thrinax radiata, the tallest ones I have actually seen are in PB:EF9A0F08-CACC-4F20-B69D-C00124A2A5F8.thumb.jpeg.de3a780687249cd6b7b3c86b1b8b9ac7.jpeg

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bubba

Not the greatest shot of some Coconuts and a Thrinax radiata but pink:F0A9CB23-03EB-4375-818D-8EA80697B05E.thumb.jpeg.3b24c975b178062d0a3f35cb546d1d0d.jpeg

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bubba

Another for the pink:BF341A5A-EEDC-44E9-8E79-78D217955DE3.thumb.jpeg.43e9f6c14278b016ef2d6a823dbca92a.jpeg

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Mr. Coconut Palm
6 hours ago, mnorell said:

Jamaican Talls generally have much larger leaves and fuller crowns than those in these photos. You can't always tell the variety from a photo due to lack of fruit as well as poor appearance of the trees from overpruning and subsequent lack of fertilization to restore the removed nutrients. Jamaicans are not common these days after the LY wipeout of the late 20th century, but they still exist in the Keys (and a few are indeed quite tall). Those of us who have them on our properties in the Keys usually trade the fruits/sprouts amongst neighbors/friends...those who know and care about them, that is. Green Malays are the most commonly grown/sold and they are nice but don't have the huge boles and spectacular crowns of the Jamaican Talls. Aside from the Green Malay (and some MayPans), it is the Panama Tall and Malay Gold types that dominate the landscape in the Keys. Jamaicans are also quite slow to get going. (Panamas, on the other hand, are like racehorses.) If you want to see what south Florida used to look like, with dense stands of Jamaican Talls, take a look at the John Ford film, They Were Expendable. It was shot on Key Biscayne doubling the Philippines and the look with those coconuts will leave an impression! One YouTube example, here: They Were Expendable scene

So, the ones in Bubba's post, with the really curved trunks, are not Jamaican Talls?  They don't appear to be Green Malayans.  And the many tall Coconut Palms that my wife and I saw in the Keys in December 2010, were likely not Jamaican Talls, even though many of them had really curved trunks, large leaves and large boles at the base?

John

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mnorell
2 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

So, the ones in Bubba's post, with the really curved trunks, are not Jamaican Talls?  They don't appear to be Green Malayans.  And the many tall Coconut Palms that my wife and I saw in the Keys in December 2010, were likely not Jamaican Talls, even though many of them had really curved trunks, large leaves and large boles at the base?

John

All coconut types can have curved trunks if their environment causes the curvature. Usually this happens when the weight of the tree and/or soil instability in combination with water (inundation) or wind knocks the tree over to some extent and then it corrects upward. The boles vary and If they have large boles and a "hefty" quality, they are probably either Panama or Jamaican Talls. MayPans can also have a good-sized bole but it varies and true MayPans are not as common as one might think. The easiest way to identify is by the fruit and petiole color in combination with those qualities. Jamaicans have green petioles and a somewhat elongated fruit with a "three-cornered" or pinched end. They are also painfully slow (though not anywhere near the slow speed of the Niu Leka/Fiji Dwarf). Panamas have a caramel-colored petiole, sometimes mixed with green, and a "cannonball"-shaped fruit, often also with the caramel color, and tremendous growth speed. Most resorts have planted Malayans, some MayPans. Many coconuts sold as MayPans are actually Malayans. Malay Golds are slow-growing, beautiful but they really suffer in the winter and have yellow leaves, even in the Keys. The reticulated whitefly loves this type for some reason and really sucks the life out of those leaves during the cool season. The Jamaicans and Panamas tend to be planted residentially, traded between locals or bought at local nurseries. But in Miami (where growing is performed on a large scale) it is the Malays that predominate. It's kind of a shame because, aesthetics aside, the lack of the large bole is thought to weaken them in windstorms.

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bubba

Highly erudite summary on all things coconut by Michael (no surprise). Quite frankly, there are so many out of the ordinary specimens somehow coconuts seem almost ordinary (Sabal like). 
 

I will strive to find some more out of the ordinary Coconuts so that further expert articulation and testimony can occur!

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Mr. Coconut Palm
15 hours ago, mnorell said:

All coconut types can have curved trunks if their environment causes the curvature. Usually this happens when the weight of the tree and/or soil instability in combination with water (inundation) or wind knocks the tree over to some extent and then it corrects upward. The boles vary and If they have large boles and a "hefty" quality, they are probably either Panama or Jamaican Talls. MayPans can also have a good-sized bole but it varies and true MayPans are not as common as one might think. The easiest way to identify is by the fruit and petiole color in combination with those qualities. Jamaicans have green petioles and a somewhat elongated fruit with a "three-cornered" or pinched end. They are also painfully slow (though not anywhere near the slow speed of the Niu Leka/Fiji Dwarf). Panamas have a caramel-colored petiole, sometimes mixed with green, and a "cannonball"-shaped fruit, often also with the caramel color, and tremendous growth speed. Most resorts have planted Malayans, some MayPans. Many coconuts sold as MayPans are actually Malayans. Malay Golds are slow-growing, beautiful but they really suffer in the winter and have yellow leaves, even in the Keys. The reticulated whitefly loves this type for some reason and really sucks the life out of those leaves during the cool season. The Jamaicans and Panamas tend to be planted residentially, traded between locals or bought at local nurseries. But in Miami (where growing is performed on a large scale) it is the Malays that predominate. It's kind of a shame because, aesthetics aside, the lack of the large bole is thought to weaken them in windstorms.

Michael,

Thank you for the detailed descriptions.  I have studied Coconut Palms ever since I was 14.  They are my favorite tree.  I thought I knew all about the ones that are most commonly grown in Florida, but I am still learning more.  When I lived in South Florida back in 2000 and 2001, I saw some old mature ones with full crowns that appeared to be 70 to 80 ft. tall, some with boles, and some without.  I assumed they were old Jamaican Talls that survived LY, and many of them, if not most of them DID NOT have injectors in the trunks.  So, that lead me to believe a couple of things about the Jamaican Talls, 1. that there must be some strains of them that are naturally more resistant to LY than other Jamaicans, and 2. that they often have the bole at the base, but sometimes do not (I have seen some very tall ones that truly appeared to be Jamaican Talls with full crowns, but that occasionally do not have the bole at the base).  From what I understand about the Maypans, they don't have full crowns, more like an umbrella shaped crown, but usually have the bole, but from what I remember when I lived over there, they often have notches in their boles, kind of a ragged edged bole at the base where the roots would protrude right before they go into the ground, whereas the boles of the Jamaican Talls always seemed to be more symmetrical and extending right down to the ground, without many roots protruding above ground.  The Malayans (all 3 varieties) usually had straighter trunks overall, but occasionally with some curvature, and narrower trunks.  I never recall seeing any Malayans over 40 to 45ft. tall, not even Green Malayans any taller than this, even though they seem to be the most robust and faster growing of the 3 Malayans.  The Malayans over there, and the ones we had here along the South Texas Coast and in the RGV before the big freeze, would usually have some bulging at the base of the trunk, but not what I would call a bole, just bulging at the base of the trunk.  Also, the Malayans don't seem to have a full crown either, more like an umbrella shaped crown to what I would call a 2/3 full crown.  Out of the 3 Malayans, the Green Malayan seems to be the most cold hardy, as we have grown them here on the east side of Corpus Christi to maturity with nuts on them between our really bad winters, but the Goldens and Yellows, forget it, our winters are just too chilly for them.  Though there were some mature Golden Malayans with nuts on them in the RGV and even a few mature Yellow Malayans around Port Isabel and South Padre Island before last year's Big Freeze.

In regard to the Panama Talls, you said they are really fast growing.  I have also heard they are a little more cold hardy, but I wonder, as I have one in the ground to replace my Mexican Tall that I lost in the Big Freeze.  This past winter, my yard had 4 freezes, the coldest of which got down to 28.6F.  I must have had at least 20 nights down in the 30'sF in my yard, but I only protected my in ground Coconut Palms and in ground Christmas Palms by wrapping them with sheets and blankets on 2 of those nights.  I live in Flour Bluff on the east side of Corpus Christi, on a little peninsula just about 6/10 of a mile from the Laguna Madre (typically a low end 10A Climate).  I can normally go for about 2 to 3 years at a time without a single freeze, and normally will not get down into the 30'sF more than 4 or 5 times in a typical winter.  With that said, my supposedly Panama Tall, which was about 10.5 ft. tall in overall height before we started having freezes this past winter, was more cold injured than my Green Malayan Dwarf that was about 10.5 ft. to 11 ft. tall in overall height when the freezing weather started back in January.  The Panama Tall was slower to start recovering too.  It is now producing what looks like will be a near normal size new spear after pushing out a new spear that is opening and is fairly normal, and after pushing out two cold injured leaves that broke off in our high winds here (one broke off towards the tip, and the other in the middle).  It has lighter colored leaflets and very bright orangish colored petioles and swelling at the base of the trunk that may become a bole over time.  My replacement Green Malayan (to replace the mature fruiting one I lost in the Big Freeze), also had 2 cold injured leaves break off in our high winds (one about 2/3 of the way down the leaf, and the other just basically flopped over at the tip).  Each of the palms had an older mature leaf that survived the winter kink at the petiole near the trunk and fall over on a windy day.  But the Green Malayan seems to be recovering better and faster than the Panama Tall.  Granted, the Green Malayan is probably about 4 to 5 months older than the Panama Tall, and the Green Malayan is planted right off my front patio, where my mature fruiting one was, so it does get a little bit of protection from the house from cold north winds, and possibly a little heat coming off the house (but not much, it is a very small house).  Whereas, my Panama Tall is further out in the yard, next to my Sea Grape.  

As far as you know, how does the cold hardiness of Fiji Dwarfs compare to other varieties?  I have a palm that was given to me in a palm swap, and at the time I just thought it was a very robust, yet slower growing Green Malayan, but as the last couple of spear leaves opened up, it honestly appears to be a juvenile Fiji Dwarf, or a hybrid cross between a Fiji Dwarf and some other variety.  It is approximately 5 ft. tall, has open mature leaves that are fairly short, but very robust, green leaflets and petioles, and a slightly fatter trunk than other varieties the same height.  I have had it for about a year and half as I recall, maybe a little while longer.  Up until the last couple of months, it has been slow growing.  My wife and I really like the look of it, and want to plant it in the yard next spring on the south side of the house about 12 ft. over from where I have my Green Malayan growing, where it will get a little protection from winter winds.

John

Edited by Mr. Coconut Palm
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SeanK

When I was on Grand Bahama years back, there was a lot of T.radiata but the areas were natural. On Puerto Rico, I never noticed it. Most fan palms out that way are street planted P.pacifica.

Is Pritchardia planted in the Keys?

 

Edited by SeanK
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bubba

I have seen P. pritchardia butACD4179F-F82A-4C55-AD63-BD13421AFEC0.thumb.jpeg.a2fe34b9da1beb9b028390b104dc67ea.jpeg it is obviously an underutilized palm in this area. A few more coconuts, with more to come. Not certain of the predominant variety:

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bubba

D3E22FB3-9DDB-42BD-8F6F-FB69CFA2C782.thumb.jpeg.dbb2928a3f56c553398199a4deb7d6c4.jpeg

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bubba

They are everywhere:28EBCDDD-2373-417E-8F5B-BE3E4551F32B.thumb.jpeg.61f19851104c540ef12944a3f1df9d89.jpeg

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bubba

I will start looking for squigglers:12803065-0D6C-4741-8DD0-22F3F1DCB37B.thumb.jpeg.e9379ce6a3c89d5faa43fb75efbd16ab.jpeg

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mnorell

John, in re your questions on the Fiji Dwarf...my own experience with this type, and I know I have the actual Fiji Dwarf because I obtained it directly from Dave Romney, who kept tight control over pollination (this type outcrosses very easily so you have to segregate them to keep them 'pure' ): they are pretty painfully slow for the first few years, and they need a lot of heat and sun. Mine was overshadowed by various dicot trees/shrubs plus a Panama Tall that grew to over 20' overall height in 2-1/2 years...the Fiji survived but languished, and it was after Irma, when virtually everything was cleared around it, once it was in the sun it started to grow and throw leaves like crazy. This type has a very congested crown, really more of a true dwarf, and the whole tree has a stumpy, shuttlecock-like crown. To me, it really looks more like a Ravenea rivularis than anything. But it does fruit while quite short. Mine is just making trunk and it has been planted for about 11 years. Thus I would not recommend it for cooler/colder areas, because it takes years even in a tropical climate to look like anything. it has mostly green leaves/petioles (I don't remember if it had any color while juvenile, but it might have), but the fruit have a bronze/caramel hue.  

By the way, I should correct a statement I made earlier about Jamaicans, in that they are always green in their parts, the fact is that they can have more golden petioles/midribs when they are juveniles, but pretty quickly they become mostly green. I have a juvenile in our driveway on Big Pine right now that has a lot of that coloration in it.  But it is variable...and the gold is not the same as the darker caramel color typically seen on Panamas (which makes Panamas fairly easy to identify without fruit, although they also shed that color mostly, eventually). Jamaicans, to me at least, are hard to identify without seeing those rather uniquely shaped fruits, unless an older tree where the massive crown sort of gives it away...but in fruit, a Panama (cannonball fruit) and Jamaican (long, three-cornered/pinched fruit-tip) next to each other are easy to identify in a blink.

I can't speak to the cold-hardiness of the various types, but I'd say the Green Malayans are in general strong growers. But I believe they outcross a lot (hence the MayPan) or just have some natural variability. I have a bunch of them on Big Pine that mostly grew from dropped fruit of our original group of Green Malay trees. They may have larger or smaller boles, differences in the crowns, etc. but are strong growers. They definitely grow better sprouted in situ rather than transplants as larger trees (well, isn't that true of most everything).

Here are some shots of my 11-years-in-the-ground 'Niu Leka' ('Fiji Dwarf') taken about a month ago. The vast majority of its growth, though, came after Irma (almost five years now). That is a young Roystonea oleracea in the foreground.

IMG_0109.JPEG

IMG_0104.JPEG

IMG_0101.JPEG

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Mr. Coconut Palm
12 hours ago, mnorell said:

John, in re your questions on the Fiji Dwarf...my own experience with this type, and I know I have the actual Fiji Dwarf because I obtained it directly from Dave Romney, who kept tight control over pollination (this type outcrosses very easily so you have to segregate them to keep them 'pure' ): they are pretty painfully slow for the first few years, and they need a lot of heat and sun. Mine was overshadowed by various dicot trees/shrubs plus a Panama Tall that grew to over 20' overall height in 2-1/2 years...the Fiji survived but languished, and it was after Irma, when virtually everything was cleared around it, once it was in the sun it started to grow and throw leaves like crazy. This type has a very congested crown, really more of a true dwarf, and the whole tree has a stumpy, shuttlecock-like crown. To me, it really looks more like a Ravenea rivularis than anything. But it does fruit while quite short. Mine is just making trunk and it has been planted for about 11 years. Thus I would not recommend it for cooler/colder areas, because it takes years even in a tropical climate to look like anything. it has mostly green leaves/petioles (I don't remember if it had any color while juvenile, but it might have), but the fruit have a bronze/caramel hue.  

By the way, I should correct a statement I made earlier about Jamaicans, in that they are always green in their parts, the fact is that they can have more golden petioles/midribs when they are juveniles, but pretty quickly they become mostly green. I have a juvenile in our driveway on Big Pine right now that has a lot of that coloration in it.  But it is variable...and the gold is not the same as the darker caramel color typically seen on Panamas (which makes Panamas fairly easy to identify without fruit, although they also shed that color mostly, eventually). Jamaicans, to me at least, are hard to identify without seeing those rather uniquely shaped fruits, unless an older tree where the massive crown sort of gives it away...but in fruit, a Panama (cannonball fruit) and Jamaican (long, three-cornered/pinched fruit-tip) next to each other are easy to identify in a blink.

I can't speak to the cold-hardiness of the various types, but I'd say the Green Malayans are in general strong growers. But I believe they outcross a lot (hence the MayPan) or just have some natural variability. I have a bunch of them on Big Pine that mostly grew from dropped fruit of our original group of Green Malay trees. They may have larger or smaller boles, differences in the crowns, etc. but are strong growers. They definitely grow better sprouted in situ rather than transplants as larger trees (well, isn't that true of most everything).

Here are some shots of my 11-years-in-the-ground 'Niu Leka' ('Fiji Dwarf') taken about a month ago. The vast majority of its growth, though, came after Irma (almost five years now). That is a young Roystonea oleracea in the foreground.

IMG_0109.JPEG

IMG_0104.JPEG

IMG_0101.JPEG

Michael, 

Thanks for the detailed description.  Wow, they REALLY ARE slow growers!!!  But the crown and leaves are beautiful.  Maybe the one that I think is a Fiji Dwarf is a hybrid.  As far as hybridizing is concerned, I always heard the dwarfs, especially the Malayan Dwarfs are self pollinating, but that the Talls are cross pollinating, which means, you should get palms true to form to the parent trees from Malayan Dwarfs, but the nuts from Talls could be true to form if that is the predominant variety in the vicinity, or could be hybrids with pollen from nearby Dwarfs.  That was always the way I understood it, but someone (it may have been Keith-Zeeth) who said that the Talls can sometimes be self pollinating.  As for the growth rate of Panama Talls, I hope mine will really take off soon, if it truly is a pure Panama Tall.  So far, the fastest growth rate I have had with any palm seems to be Green Malayans.  The big one I had before the Big Freeze over here last year, was putting out a new spear on average every 3 weeks in the summer, and somewhat slower in our cool to chilly winters here.  I did have what I thought was a Maymex Hybrid cross between a Golden Malayan Dwarf and a Mexican Tall, that in the months prior to the Big Freeze was starting to produce VERY ROBUST LARGE leaves and the new spears that were emerging from it were very stout and not very tapered to a long point at the end like with my Green Malayans and some other varieties I have had.  It (Maymex Hybrid sprouted from a nut washed up on Padre Island) was developing a fat base/bole and even just barely starting to trunk immediately prior to the Big Freeze.  It was about 14ft. tall in overall height right at the time of the Big Freeze.  It had even survived a Rhinoceros Beetle attacking it a couple of years earlier.  I finally flushed that thing out of the hole it made adjacent to my palm and killed that ugly looking monster.  Maybe I can take a couple of pics with my phone tomorrow and upload them here to see if you can id the palm that I thought was a Fiji Dwarf.

John

P.S.  Nice Royal in the foreground.  I had a Florida Royal (elata) that was about the exact same height with trunk at the base, and a Puerto Rican Royal that was 8.5ft. tall immediately prior to the Big Freeze.  There were some mature Cuban Royals 30 ft. to 40 ft. tall in overall height near where I live.  It is a shame we lost all our Royals here, but some survived in the RGV south of here, and actually look pretty good again.

Edited by Mr. Coconut Palm
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Blueman

Michael: I've read Dave Romney had a nice assortment of coconut varieties.  Is anyone else carrying the torch in FL and propagating those varieties?  

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bubba

I met Dave Romney at a Fairchild sale numerous years ago and hung with him as long as possible. Great guy, who I believe was originally from Jamaica.

I am uncertain what the universal variety is in this area. I do not disagree that it is not as tall as expected. Many specimens in PB much taller. I can only speculate that this area was devastated by LY and these are younger specimens of unknown variety. The Panama Talls in PB are enormous in height and thickness. A few more squiggles as promised:

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bubba

654FF49C-F16A-4B21-8739-BB8F9226B6E3.thumb.jpeg.3907fab00636a864efe88d853aee1df6.jpeg

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bubba

CD28E956-E6FB-4311-A28E-FBCE1D2EB1D7.thumb.jpeg.55a94b02c8efe40c0245a01d91fbc798.jpeg

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bubba

Upshot:B97674DD-1790-4624-8B61-0F6F88F9EAA7.thumb.jpeg.ae3e6fb224ff443bed54148ae3714e37.jpeg

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