So close yet so far from 7b

[MonkeDonkezz]

I am located in zone 7a, and as you can see I am a couple blocks from 7b. I know the map is not that reliable but maybe I could get some 7b palms in a good microclimate?

[knikfar]

9 minutes ago, MonkeDonkezz said:

I am located in zone 7a, and as you can see I am a couple blocks from 7b. I know the map is not that reliable but maybe I could get some 7b palms in a good microclimate?

You'll never know if it'll work unless you try it, right? People on here will give you advice and suggestions but nobody will be able to tell you if a 7b palm can survive in your warm 7a zone. There are so many factors that can make a microclimate warmer or cooler. And there's so much variation even within specific palm species and individual plants. 

[Collectorpalms]

52 minutes ago, MonkeDonkezz said:

I am located in zone 7a, and as you can see I am a couple blocks from 7b. I know the map is not that reliable but maybe I could get some 7b palms in a good microclimate?

What do you have now?

what do you want to try?

[oasis371]

Absolutely! microclimates matter big time.  Cold hardiness zones (and HEAT hardiness zones for that matter) are just general guides.  They ARE useful, but you are free to experiment and have FUN!

[jwitt]

These first 2 pics are in a zone 6b.

The third pic is in zone 7b about a mile away. All pictures taken the same day in March, 2019.  

I think that may clear things a bit.

Edited June 10, 2022 by jwitt

[Little Tex]

22 hours ago, jwitt said:

These first 2 pics are in a zone 6b.

The third pic is in zone 7b about a mile away. All pictures taken the same day in March, 2019.  

I think that may clear things a bit.

could filifera work in 7b OKC? or is it just because of ABQ's dryness?

[Collectorpalms]

18 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

could filifera work in 7b OKC? or is it just because of ABQ's dryness?

Hello No. The ABQ -7 and El Paso 1 , Feb 2011 Freezes were 2-3 days events. When Oklahoma city hit -14 in Feb 2021 it was 11 consecutive days below freezing .

Edited June 11, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[NBTX11]

1 hour ago, Collectorpalms said:

Hello No. The ABQ -7 and El Paso 1 , Feb 2011 Freezes were 2-3 days events. When Oklahoma city hit -14 in Feb 2021 it was 11 consecutive days below freezing .

Just out of curiosity, I looked up the low temp in OKC in 3 out of the past 4 winters, not including 2021.  They were 10, 15, and 15.  Assuming this is somewhat typical of a winter low, a Filifera could easily live a good number of years in OKC.  Someone should seriously do a test on this.  Of course it's going to die in an extreme freeze, but I think someone could coax quite a few years out of it, if they are willing to do some light protection.  I have personally seen established Filifera in Wichita Falls, Texas (prior to the 2021 freeze).  Not many, but a couple, that had obviously made it through a several winters.  And WF is 138 miles SW of OKC. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by NBTX11

[SailorBold]

1 hour ago, NBTX11 said:

Just out of curiosity, I looked up the low temp in OKC in 3 out of the past 4 winters, not including 2021.  They were 10, 15, and 15.  Assuming this is somewhat typical of a winter low, a Filifera could easily live a good number of years in OKC.  Someone should seriously do a test on this.  Of course it's going to die in an extreme freeze, but I think someone could coax quite a few years out of it, if they are willing to do some light protection.  I have personally seen established Filifera in Wichita Falls, Texas (prior to the 2021 freeze).  Not many, but a couple, that had obviously made it through a several winters.  And WF is 138 miles SW of OKC. 

It all can be done.. its all about how much work you want to put into it.... and selecting certain strains or hybrids. There are quite a few filifera here..and robusta x filifera hybrids that are long term survivors... and they are winter damaged nearly every winter. (Less so for pure filifera imho TorC filifera) So expect pruning every spring and recovery times.. 3-4 months.  Most of abq is solid 7b with areas of 6b..and to 8a.. there may be extremely small pockets of 8b dare I say it.... with huge elevation changes by Midwest and eastern standards. Long term avg low for airport is 10f.. so it's mostly cold 8aish by that average..

I see trachy get protected here.. larger palms like filifera etc not really.. but if you're expecting yearly defoliatiom anyway.. then put xmas lights on the trunk.. and wrap the trunk when the killer freezes arrive...  your higher rainfall will help the palm more than any neglected poorly cared for palm here.. it hasn't rained here going on 3 months!  I'd look into Sabal Mexicana also.. .. an awesome cold hardy palm.! Under utilized by far..

[SailorBold]

On 6/9/2022 at 2:56 PM, MonkeDonkezz said:

I am located in zone 7a, and as you can see I am a couple blocks from 7b. I know the map is not that reliable but maybe I could get some 7b palms in a good microclimate?

Yes.. absolutely without a doubt.. you can venture into the zone 8 palms for sure..

[jwitt]

10 hours ago, Little Tex said:

could filifera work in 7b OKC? or is it just because of ABQ's dryness?

There was a growing filifera in OKC documented by amazing gardens for several years.

That said, there is way more to it than the dryness.  Way more. 

If it were the "dry", I suspect Abilene and Lubbock would be more "palmy" than DFW. Not the case. 

Solar, duration, diurnal temperatures are key to ABQ long-term success.

On a side note, the warmest zones of ABQ(far NE), do not have any documented long-term trachies.  It has to do with our arctic events being ushered in with an east wind.  The palm zone that truly exists in ABQ, this wind is somewhat blocked and is locally known as the "snow hole". 

While Corrales saw 2 nights of -11f, much colder than Albuquerque's one night of -7, Corrales saw even less than ABQ's 88 consecutive hours below freezing.

We do not see the extended freezes of say a DFW. 

Oh, and those palms that saw -11f, saw below zero the next winter.  They grow today unprotected.

As Sailorbold mentioned, Sabal Mexicana may be one to look at.  It also survived here.

 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by jwitt

[teddytn]

Not knocking pushing the limits. Everyone does it, all of us to some extent. But remember we’re talking “7a-7b” in the northeast…there’s no blast furnace heat to get a lot of palms to come back after a tough winter, growing season is shorter, cumulative heat over the season is way lower. Very few 90f days. For trunking palms windmills might be your bread and butter. Just saying

[DreaminAboutPalms]

There was a guy that grew Robustas in Tulsa with protection and they lasted about a decade. A Filifera should definitely be able to survive in OKC if protected from North Wind and protected during coldest days. The problem in OKC though is that they get way more ice than Dallas does  

[Collectorpalms]

OKC is a long term 7a. I was there and a restaurant chain had them, one year only for 1 season. Just looking back, they hardy never if ever get back to back season to get them even established. Oh and the Wind, holy cow! 
ABQ and the SW is another animal. 
 

[Collectorpalms]

26 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

OKC is a long term 7a. I was there and a restaurant chain ( Rainforest Cafe?) had them, one year only for 1 season. Just looking back, they hardy ever if never get back to back season to get them even established. Oh and the Wind, holy cow! 
ABQ and the SW is another animal. OKC is a minor only city, even Sabal Louisiana gets hammered. Crape Myrtle dead after last year. 

OKC Sabal Minor, without protection,  Needle, Louisiana, Birmingham are marginal and can get to some size.
 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[Collectorpalms]

1 hour ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

There was a guy that grew Robustas in Tulsa with protection and they lasted about a decade. A Filifera should definitely be able to survive in OKC if protected from North Wind and protected during coldest days. The problem in OKC though is that they get way more ice than Dallas does  

This is a commercial property,  No protection helped they are dead. They were -20 just a year or so before they were planted. Very short term and a lot of work for a home owner. Not realistic. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[Little Tex]

12 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

No protection helped they are dead. They were -20 just a year or so before they were planted. Very short term and a lot of work for a home owner. Not realistic. 

Well, the person I had in mind for it is retired and spends most of their time gardening.

[DreaminAboutPalms]

21 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

This is a commercial property,  No protection helped they are dead. They were -20 just a year or so before they were planted. Very short term and a lot of work for a home owner. Not realistic. 

Well ya last year was obviously too much for them, but this was also in Tulsa and these are also Robustas. A filifera in southern microclimate in OKC protected from wind might be feasible for a decade 

[Collectorpalms]

OK fine, I am so close to Zone Xa, so I should I go out and plant zone Xa+1 full zone. It just does NOT work that way east of NM and I DO not plan to build the pyramids of eqypt to protect them every winter. 

I consider marginal palms that make it almost every year no problem, not die back every year. 

Freeze of 2021, has taught zero lessons to this board! It will be repeated.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[Collectorpalms]

3 hours ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Well ya last year was obviously too much for them, but this was also in Tulsa and these are also Robustas. A filifera in southern microclimate in OKC protected from wind might be feasible for a decade 

OK fine, If you can grow them in ABQ despite the fried look, then why not tell people in Zone 7 a/b in Staten Island NY like the poster, or Boise Idaho 7a they should try them too.....

Edited June 12, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[jwitt]

6 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

OK fine, If you can grow them in ABQ despite the fried look, then why not tell people in Zone 7 a/b in Staten Island NY like the poster, or Boise Idaho 7a they should try them too.....

Kind of like growing a queen palm In College Station.  One should never try by your logic.

Oh and the pics I posted were from March, coming out of winter. I would say the 7b palms look pretty unfried.  Maybe not the case with the palms in the 6b zone.  But if you look the 6b pics closely, you can see trachy, S Mexicana, even oleander looking unfried.

At the end of the day, dryness may be the easiest thing to replicate if one thinks that is the key. 

If nobody tried here, we wouldn't know filifera can survive zone 6b unprotected somewhat long-term.

Edited June 12, 2022 by jwitt

[Collectorpalms]

48 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Kind of like growing a queen palm In College Station.  One should never try by your logic.

Oh and the pics I posted were from March, coming out of winter. I would say the 7b palms look pretty unfried.  Maybe not the case with the palms in the 6b zone.  But if you look the 6b pics closely, you can see trachy, S Mexicana, even oleander looking unfried.

At the end of the day, dryness may be the easiest thing to replicate if one thinks that is the key. 

If nobody tried here, we wouldn't know filifera can survive zone 6b unprotected somewhat long-term.

Ok I am 

just an idiot. JWITT no idea what I am doing…

Edited June 12, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[Collectorpalms]

I think these comments have been very unhelpful for the originator of the thread. They should chime back in and give us more details of their plans.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[NBTX11]

All I know is that I knew of at least two established Filifera in Wichita Falls, Texas, 10-15 miles from the Oklahoma border.  I have also personally seen a very large established Sabal in Burkbunett, TX, which is literally right on the Red River.  I am sure they died in the 2021 freeze, but they were there, and they were alive, and they were quite large.  I've also seen an established 20 foot plus Trachycarpus in the Wichita Falls area before.  It is exactly 138 miles from Wichita Falls to Oklahoma City. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by NBTX11

[Collectorpalms]

2 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

All I know is that I knew of at least two established Filifera in Wichita Falls, Texas, 10-15 miles from the Oklahoma border.  I have also personally seen a very large established Sabal in Burkbunett, TX, which is literally right on the Red River.  I am sure they died in the 2021 freeze, but they were there, and they were alive, and they were quite large.  I've also seen an established 20 foot plus Trachycarpus in the Wichita Falls area before.  It is exactly 138 miles from Wichita Falls to Oklahoma City

I saw Trachycarpus Fortunei in Oklahoma, in Idabel. McCurtain County ring a bell? Which happens to be in Zone……. 8a. Not zone 7a.
 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[jwitt]

7 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

I saw Trachycarpus Fortunei in Oklahoma, in Idabel. McCurtain County ring a bell? Which happens to be in Zone……. 8a. Not zone 7a.
 

12 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

I think these comments have been very unhelpful for the originator of the thread. They should chime back in and give us more details of their plans.

I guess we can disregard the same palms at the OKC zoo because it is not zone 8a.

The original poster asked if they could try 7b palms as his 7a location is mere blocks away from zone 7b.  I demonstrated that being done in a full zone difference and distance of less than 1 mile.  

What the original poster asked for was shown and documented to have been done by others, in other locales, with some suggestions and learnings. 

Heck, a 7a climate, with the right microclimate.........imagine the possibilities!

 

[DreaminAboutPalms]

https://www.islandwidepalmtrees.com/windmill-palms.html

 

 

[DreaminAboutPalms]

[Allen]

2 hours ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

They winter protect these palms

[jwitt]

3 hours ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Zone 8 palms can look worse than z7 palms

 

 

[DreaminAboutPalms]

50 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Zone 8 palms can look worse than z7 palms

 

 

Agree 100%. DFW has had some terrible looking palms in the past for example.

But If you are trying to grow palms in Zone 7 it is a non negotiable that you are going to have to protect them at least part of the year unless you only want to plant sabal minor.

If you are going to have to protect them for a few months, then why not go for a trachy or a Washingtonia that will actually put on size and have an effect on your yard or garden. May only last a decade before a bad freeze does them in or they get to tall to protect but would have far more of an impact on landscape than needles and minors 

[DreaminAboutPalms]

1 hour ago, Allen said:

They winter protect these palms

Yes, but looks to be a fairly efficient process, the company comes out and does the protection for customers each year. Trachies don't need 80 degrees to grow and if they look that good during summer than it is definitely worth it if you live in Northeast. Sabals are more risky even with protection as they need too much heat to grow 

[Allen]

1 minute ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Yes, but looks to be a fairly efficient process, the company comes out and does the protection for customers each year. Trachies don't need 80 degrees to grow and if they look that good during summer than it is definitely worth it if you live in Northeast. Sabals are more risky even with protection as they need too much heat to grow 

I agree on that.  I bet my Trachy grow better here than in Texas.  And my Sabal worse.

[jwitt]

2 hours ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

But If you are trying to grow palms in Zone 7 it is a non negotiable that you are going to have to protect them at least part of the year unless you only want to plant sabal minor.

I personally grow 3 different trunking species in zone 7. Never protected. 

I provided 3 pictures of 4 different trunking palm species in zone 7 or less  with no protection.

I know some posters with trunking palms in zone 7 east of NM.

It has and can be done. That is indisputable.

 

[DreaminAboutPalms]

4 hours ago, jwitt said:

I personally grow 3 different trunking species in zone 7. Never protected. 

I provided 3 pictures of 4 different trunking palm species in zone 7 or less  with no protection.

I know some posters with trunking palms in zone 7 east of NM.

It has and can be done. That is indisputable.

 

I should have clarified and said zone 7's in the east, and for long term survival. Wet zone 7's are a whole different animal. It's not even the temps it's just all the ice and snow and freezing rain in the crown that causes issues for all sorts of species.

If you're in Zone 7 Oklahoma, Arkansas, Tennessee, Georgia, Carolinas, Maryland, Delaware Etc, whether it be ice or wind or both nothing you plant will look good and healthy without protection at least part of the year. Look at that one user on here who has a beautiful looking Mule Palm in Zone 7 Tennessee that gets protected during winter. I would much rather do that then try to Zone push a sabal and have it look ratty most of the time. If you live in an Eastern zone 7 and want palms you don't have to protect you are going to be limited with your options and stressed out every winter. 

That is just my opinion though. If you are in Zone 7 and willing and able to protect palms for at least a few months, than that greatly expands the list of palms that you can plant and if the goal is to make your yard look more palmy I think that is best way

Edited June 14, 2022 by DreaminAboutPalms

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

1. If you're in Zone 7 Oklahoma, Arkansas, Tennessee, Georgia, Carolinas, Maryland, Delaware Etc, whether it be ice or wind or both nothing you plant will look good and healthy without protection at least part of the year.

2. If you live in an Eastern zone 7 and want palms you don't have to protect you are going to be limited with your options and stressed out every winter. 

Your first sentence - I was unaware of this.  Good to know if I move to one. 

The second sentence definitely agree on the limited palm species part. But we kind of knew this as the poster was asking if 7b palms may be doable in a warm 7a microclimate.  

I was able to demonstrate this with pictures, that yes, zones can be pushed with microclimates. 

But in the end, you remind me, of the need to show my med palm that is planted under a canale.  Should make for some incredible, ice pics next winter. 

I was unaware of a protected mule palm in Tennessee.  Not really interested tho.  Thanks.

I do wholeheartedly agree that providing protection increases ones options and lessens damage. I'm lazy and like to sleep.

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by jwitt

[jwitt]

On 6/12/2022 at 10:09 AM, Collectorpalms said:

OK fine, I am so close to Zone Xa, so I should I go out and plant zone Xa+1 full zone. It just does NOT work that way east of NM and I DO not plan to build the pyramids of eqypt to protect them every winter. 

I consider marginal palms that make it almost every year no problem, not die back every year. 

Freeze of 2021, has taught zero lessons to this board! It will be repeated.

What was the lesson(s) of 2021?

Phoenix C. palms are hardier than known?  I knew that.  In fact, I predicted it in your armegeddon post. 

Trunk cutting may be necessary in zone 8 with zone 8 palms some winters?

 

 

 

[teddytn]

Definitely a bunch of people that have palms in zone 7 that don’t protect them and they look good. Sabal minor, Louisiana, Birmingham, Brazoria, really have to include palmetto (7b long term), needle palm, there’s a bunch of pics I’ve seen of huge windmills that there’s no way they get protected and look good. Just look at plant delights or JC Raulston arboretum both in Raleigh NC, really eye opening what’s possible. They both officially claim they have never protected any palms they’ve planted. 
 

To paraphrase Tony Avent from plant delights - the gradual cool down in the fall/ early winter helps not just palms but a lot of other “tropical looking” plants to acclimate to the cold weather, or “harden off”. In some cases I would say zone 7 would be preferable in that regard. There’s not a sudden change from hot weather that still has palms pushing growth and then a cold snap that zaps them. Obviously every part of the country regardless of it’s zone is different and unique. 

[PalmTreeDude]

I’m on the border of zone 7a/7b and I have a few 8a palms growing, for example my Chamaerops humilis, which I don’t protect, and some Sabal palmetto seedlings, which are so slow but don’t die, at least not yet, they’re kind of getting buried and are under basically full shade. So it can be done! 

[knikfar]

On 6/11/2022 at 10:54 AM, teddytn said:

Not knocking pushing the limits. Everyone does it, all of us to some extent. But remember we’re talking “7a-7b” in the northeast…there’s no blast furnace heat to get a lot of palms to come back after a tough winter, growing season is shorter, cumulative heat over the season is way lower. Very few 90f days. For trunking palms windmills might be your bread and butter. Just saying

Ha, def not a problem we have here in Raleigh on the 7b/8a line. Its going to hover around and above 100f all week.