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Beccariophoenix alfredii and Bismarckia nobilis: how far to space apart planting for long term success?


Jadd Correia

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Hi Everyone,

I am new to palm tree growing, but I have completely fallen in love with the idea of creating a long term paradise/jungle.  In my front yard there is somewhat limited spacing, but ample sunshine and warmth. Currently, I have in the ground an Alfie and I would love to know how close together I can plant a recently purchased Bismark palm? Both palms would be roughly the same size (2ft+) going into the ground with the Bismark only being planted 2 months after the Alfie went into the ground (March 2022). 

Please note: The Alfie and Bismark will be east and west of each other to not compete for southern sun with a planned 5+ feet of distance between their trunks. Is this enough room? Picture below shows Alfie to the left with a small ground light that will be about where the Bismark will be planted. Also to note, a queen palm is planted about 5 feet closer to the house behind the small light and will be about 5 ft from the planned planting site for the Bismark. (A triangle will be formed from Beccariophoenix trunk to Syagrus trunk to Bismarkia trunk with 5+ feet between each trunk.) 

I understand that all of these palms under ideal conditions will be huge, so I am planning accordingly with them going on the north side of my planting bed and will be shading out some grass only. All ideas welcome and thank you for the consideration.

 

JaddInkedIMG_0366_LI.thumb.jpg.e56a187c1dd20b4a3740c0bf63e765cc.jpgIMG_0367.thumb.JPG.47e16357b92fea0eb07255932bf0e8ef.JPG

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I have both, these palms are both large palms in full florida sun.  The alfredii will be about 30'' wide in 10 years so leaves extending horizontally ~15' from the trunk.  bismarckia are about 22-25' wide so 10-12' out from the trunk,  I'd say 20-25' trunk to trunk distance since I expect the bismarckia to gain height a little faster but not sure how much faster since both are in full sun.  You can put them closer together, but that will make you trim green leaves to prevent them from damaging each other in winds.  Trimming extra green/live leaves can shock a bismarckia here in florida.  I have two neighbors that overtrimmed theirs (by 4-5 live leaves) and they are in the process of shortening up the leaf lengths, they look unhappy now but were pretty nice.

 

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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@Jadd Correia nice to meet  you!

As @sonoranfans pointed out, alfies get big.

I'm gonna say, REALLY big, across the base, 30" is pretty average; they can be bigger.

Bismarckias are also big, both across the crown and the base. Like about 25 feet for the crown and 30" for the base.

I'd find a spot far from your alfie for your bizzie. The more sun and heat the better. Put them too close together and you'll have kind of a King Kong v. Godzilla effect as they grapple for space.

Also, see my PM (Private message.)

Again, WELCOME!

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Don't have spacing advice, but wanted to add that the combo of Beccariophoenix + Bismarckia is my all-time favorite from a visual standpoint. 

They don't need to be as close as they are in this photo... but if they can be visible at the same time - surrounded by colorful tropical plants - it's Heaven on Earth in my book.

Here's my absolute favorite palm photo of all time, from the amazing gardens of Dennis Hundscheidt...

hundscheidt.jpg.57c2cb6fa2a78df844fcbbc4c23f5bd4.jpg

https://www.dennishundscheidt.com.au/

* I'm pretty sure that's a B. Fenestralis (not Alfredii), but the overall look would be similar. The contrast between the Bismarkia & Beccariophoenix leaves is breathtaking.

Unsolicited advice... Try to get a bit more color in the yard if you can. Cordyline (Tis)? Hot pink Bloodleaf Plant? Angel Trumpets? Queen Emma Lily? Red Banana Plant? a Dark Purple Bush? Don't need much, but a little color sprinkled in can make the green plants pop. :wub2: 

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Stacey Wright  |  Graphic Designer

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The Hundscheidt garden ones look like they may be about 15-20' trunk-to-trunk?  That seems fairly close together, as others said you'd have to overtrim one of the two to keep them from fighting each other.  In the photo it looks like they keep the Bismarckia at full crown and keep the Beccariophoenix trimmed up in sort of a "shuttlecock" shape.  I have three Bismarckia and 5 B. Alfredii in my yard, but they are not too close to each other.  So I can't offer any other advice, just make sure they are far enough from any walls or buildings.  I made the mistake of planting an Alfredii about 6' from my well water treatment tanks...bad...bad...bad choice!  :D  I tranplanted it elsewhere after seeing pictures of the full sized plants.

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On 5/17/2022 at 10:23 AM, Jadd Correia said:

The Alfie and Bismark will be east and west of each other to not compete for southern sun with a planned 5+ feet of distance between their trunks. Is this enough room? Picture below shows Alfie to the left with a small ground light that will be about where the Bismark will be planted. Also to note, a queen palm is planted about 5 feet closer to the house behind the small light and will be about 5 ft from the planned planting site for the Bismark. (A triangle will be formed from Beccariophoenix trunk to Syagrus trunk to Bismarkia trunk with 5+ feet between each trunk.) 

You can see what planting things too close to a Bismarckia results in, in this thread:

I posted a couple of photos you will find in that thread of a Bismarckia planted too close to other palms and it reinforces what Tom and Dave said above on spacing.

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33.0782 North -117.305 West  at 72 feet elevation

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27 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

The Hundscheidt garden ones look like they may be about 15-20' trunk-to-trunk?  That seems fairly close together, as others said you'd have to overtrim one of the two to keep them from fighting each other. 

Thanks for the spacing estimate (I was curious since this is the closest I'd ever seen these two palms placed). The Hundscheidt distance is definitely closer than most people should put these two palms... Mr. Hundscheidt is a master of space usage, so was able to get away with it, but he undoubtedly trims the Beccariophonenix to make it happen. It also looks like the Bizzie might be a little closer to the camera than it appears in the photo. In other words, the Hundscheidt spacing is really pushing it... and any closer than that is a definite no-go (if you don't want the "two monsters battling it out" look).

For my front yard (which is smaller than the backyard) I'm picturing doing something like this... with Bizzie & Beccariophoenix in the corners, and smaller plants in between. I do love having these two massive palms in the same visual space... but not necessarily RIGHT next to each other.

spacing.thumb.jpg.52129db93c914ea06661b1e6bdb4cad0.jpg

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Stacey Wright  |  Graphic Designer

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Thank you all for the very detailed and thoughtful responses. I will definitely be spacing them farther apart than I originally planned so my future self thanks you all for the distancing advice. I agree that the visual of a Bizzie and a Alfie or Fenestralis would be beautiful and something I would enjoy looking at for years to come, given enough space that they don't have to battle it out. Follow up pics to come once I plant the Bizzie.

Additionally, I completely agree about adding more color to the yard to make the green foliage pop. Luckily, my yard had very established Japanese maples (both green and red varieties) which I use to shade younger plants and palms until I need to prune back to make more light room. The other red ornamental that I have had success with is the Ensete ventricosum maurelii which takes our winters fairly well for a big wide leaf banana.  Happy Wednesday.

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Looked up the garden that @iDesign put on this thread and Dennis Hundscheidt planted 100 palms on 1/4 acre lot I guess I better get busy!!!!

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21 hours ago, Tracy said:

You can see what planting things too close to a Bismarckia results in, in this thread:

I posted a couple of photos you will find in that thread of a Bismarckia planted too close to other palms and it reinforces what Tom and Dave said above on spacing.

I totally agree with the comments about Bismarckia fronds winning!  The fans are big, heavy, and do not flex.  The petioles are remarkably strong and the serrated edges can rip apart nearby palms.  I didn't realize that when I planted my three, so I lucked out with *most* of my nearby plantings.  The Bismarckia are growing up and above other plants, and I've only had to cut off 2 or 3 fronds to prevent damage.  Here's another good example of what frond wins.  The petiole that's missing the fan utterly crushed a Bottle just by slowly pressing down over it as new fronds grew...

1365363886_P1090493BismarckiacrushingBottle.thumb.JPG.5d4287baba2d6320aa8d7dbb8a3a44ea.JPG

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1780255497_IMG_8636(2).thumb.JPG.13b024b565729944cdb070d24944a2e7.JPG1533652145_IMG_8638(2).thumb.JPG.e1863c0c92a7e10da5e697846cb2b7a4.JPG

23 hours ago, iDesign said:

Thanks for the spacing estimate (I was curious since this is the closest I'd ever seen these two palms placed). The Hundscheidt distance is definitely closer than most people should put these two palms... Mr. Hundscheidt is a master of space usage, so was able to get away with it, but he undoubtedly trims the Beccariophonenix to make it happen. It also looks like the Bizzie might be a little closer to the camera than it appears in the photo. In other words, the Hundscheidt spacing is really pushing it... and any closer than that is a definite no-go (if you don't want the "two monsters battling it out" look).

For my front yard (which is smaller than the backyard) I'm picturing doing something like this... with Bizzie & Beccariophoenix in the corners, and smaller plants in between. I do love having these two massive palms in the same visual space... but not necessarily RIGHT next to each other.

spacing.thumb.jpg.52129db93c914ea06661b1e6bdb4cad0.jpg

that bismarckia is heavily trimmed up, 7-8 leaves total at that height?  Mine have over 20 leaves and they hold grey to the horizontal.  Not a huge fan of these hurricane cut bizzies.  But that is what happens when your initial perception of space these things take up was so far off.  I was well aware of the size of these palms, one sabal uresana is within leaftip touching distance, nothing else.  Personally, I like bismarckia to be a focal point, framed by other smaller palms at a distance fo course.  ALfredii ar the same way, too big to share space.  When I said alfredii were "30" wide"  I really meant the crown of leaves was 30 feet wide.  I dont think the trunk on my alfie has maxed out in thickness but its pretty thick now.

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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26 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

1533652145_IMG_8638(2).thumb.JPG.e1863c0c92a7e10da5e697846cb2b7a4.JPG

How close are the Alfie & Bizzie in this photo?
This is a great reference photo for spacing purposes (esp if you can add data on the distance between these two beautiful palms). If you could add a second photo of the point where the Bizzie & Alfie are "holding hands" that might be helpful as well. Looks like you have them pretty close, but still workable (though I wouldn't put them any closer).

As for the Bizzie "Hurricane Cut" in my mockup photo, that one is a "Photoshop Bizzie" so no actual palms were harmed in the making of that mockup. I'll make sure to let my "real" Bizzie grow more fronds. Though sadly there's actually no Bizzie in that spot yet. A Caryota Gigas/Obtusa is in that spot currently. I'm just planning ahead for the Caryota's inevitable demise :wacko:

Stacey Wright  |  Graphic Designer

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I wish my wife asked me for a palm.

:(

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5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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1 hour ago, iDesign said:

How close are the Alfie & Bizzie in this photo?
This is a great reference photo for spacing purposes (esp if you can add data on the distance between these two beautiful palms). If you could add a second photo of the point where the Bizzie & Alfie are "holding hands" that might be helpful as well. Looks like you have them pretty close, but still workable (though I wouldn't put them any closer).

As for the Bizzie "Hurricane Cut" in my mockup photo, that one is a "Photoshop Bizzie" so no actual palms were harmed in the making of that mockup. I'll make sure to let my "real" Bizzie grow more fronds. Though sadly there's actually no Bizzie in that spot yet. A Caryota Gigas/Obtusa is in that spot currently. I'm just planning ahead for the Caryota's inevitable demise :wacko:

that fan palm is a borassus Aethiopum not a bizzie and its getting removed within a week, its far too big for that spot, my mistake.  The borassus frost burned over the winter, so I cut it back(-7 leaves) and Im putting in a concrete pad with screen there.   I really did like that borassus but its huge heavy leaves(bigger than bismarckia for sure) would be falling on the house one day on one side and ripping up alfredii leaves on the other.  The alfie will go on with plenty of room, the borassus edit had to be done.

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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1 hour ago, Billy said:

…..With 24’10” between my little 15g Bismarckia and a once 15g Alfredii that’s starting to come into it’s own, I still don’t think it’ll be enough spacing but only time will tell. I may have to prune one of them back like others have mentioned, but hopefully not as I like to see my palms as full as possible. 

Your way good as far as I’m concerned. I’d love to have 20ft between specimen palms. 
 

1 hour ago, Billy said:

……My wife wanted it so I guess “happy wife=happy life”?

She’s got good taste and you’re smart for complying. 
 

-dale

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1 hour ago, 96720 said:

My beccariophoenix and Bismarckia 15’apart.

Thanks for the awesome reference photo! Looks like the Bizzie had a head start (right)? If so, it probably won't be as big of an issue with frond overlap as it would have been if they were the same age. 

Microphone out... Would you say that 15-20' is an ideal minimum distance between these two palms (assuming they start out at similar size)? Any other advice?

Stacey Wright  |  Graphic Designer

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The bizzies were quite large they were readily available you can see their fronds on either side of the picture I have 2 of them also probably 15’ apart. Beccariophoenix were not so readily available I think I bought it from jungle music you can see it in the 5gal. Pot getting ready to be planted.

AC5941FA-E3CC-4630-8356-C96F9D602F25.jpeg

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Man, I’m going to have some heavy editing to do someday. All my palms are anywhere from 3ft. to 6ft. apart including some big boys. What can I say, my yard is not large enough to both properly space palms and support my palm addiction. I’m hoping it will somehow pull off a jungle look without totally distorting the palms in their battle for supremacy. Hopefully the growth rates will vary enough to prevent that.

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2 hours ago, 96720 said:

My beccariophoenix and Bismarckia 15’apart.

EEA4351C-8E75-4E32-9634-1CCC753DCF0E.jpeg

To me….this looks fine. As noted in previous posts, what size they are planted out and when make all the difference in the world. 
 

1 hour ago, The Gerg said:

Man, I’m going to have some heavy editing to do someday. All my palms are anywhere from 3ft. to 6ft. apart including some big boys. What can I say, my yard is not large enough to both properly space palms and support my palm addiction. I’m hoping it will somehow pull off a jungle look without totally distorting the palms in their battle for supremacy. Hopefully the growth rates will vary enough to prevent that.

I’m the same with some of my trees. I don’t mind the jungle look tho. I like different height palms throughout so all the canopies or crownshafts aren’t at the same height. If I gotta cut some down to thin out the herd in 15-20yrs…. decisions are gonna have to be made. It is what it is….

 

-dale

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I agree I keep planting more palms to have the jungle effect you can’t plant everything at once you need shade and it also gets expensive so I just keep planting!!!

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ALfredii are not going to grow the same for everyone.  If root areas are confined, this will restrict growth above the soil.  In florida we have some skinny royals(<20" thick trunks) with concrete all around the roots, and then there are royals with huge root areas and 30"+ thick trunks.  Of my (3) alfredii (planted at at the same time 11 years ago as 3 gallons), one is clearly 7-10' taller with a much thicker trunk than the others who had less sun exposure and more confined root areas.  The big one is the one with huge low competition root area and full sun.  Palms planted close can fight each other for root area/nutrients and become a bit stunted.  The question is how much can you stunt a palm with root competition and lack of water/nutrients?  My suspicion is that alfredii will be stunted easier than bismarckia, based on what I have seen.  I would be concerned in putting one of these monsters in a raised bed as limited root areas create weaknesses in wind resistance of a palm.  Alfredii is already known to get knocked down by wind here in florida, my suspicion is its due to under development of roots vs above ground "sail" of the crown.  Bismarckia seem to grow here well without irrigation so you cant reduce growth by limiting water. and they grow in habitat is low nutrient soil.  Bizzies also do well in wind, with the big fans tending to give the "hand wave of the queen" motion to let air out of leaves.  My fully exposed 30' bizzie didnt lose a leaf in IRMA's 65-75 mph sustained winds for hours.  The damage was extensive limp(fractured) leaflet tips on the lower windward side of the palm crown.  My large alfredii with its massive root system faired very well, of the oldest 3-4 leaves were bent(factured) at the petiole.   One alfredii I had in part sun in a 6" raised bed area did tilt noticably but it has since adapted on its known.  When planting alfredii out ask yourself if it has enough root area.  IF its limited, you could trim it up 4-5 leaves and the "sail" wont be so big.

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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4 hours ago, Billy said:

Have you acquired a Beccariophoenix for the front yet? Which one of the 3 did you land on? This looks amazing by the way. Definitely my style with bromeliads littered all over the joint. Just needs some ti's!

I happily own all palms shown in the mockup, with the exception on the Bizzie.  That spot will continue to be occupied by a Caryota Gigas/Obtusa till it flowers (which sadly could happen any time). Oh, and I do own a LOT of Ti plants (in addition to bromeliads, etc).  Some of the color areas in the mockup are placeholders for "put lots of colorful stuff here".

The Beccariophoenix was a tough decision for me, and I’m still not sure I made the right call...

- I bought a Fenestralis first because it’s my favorite cosmetically, but am embarrassed to say it was my first official kill (RIP). Was planted out much too young and died over the winter. Sounds like this one survives only in the most protected spots (in SoCal), so probably a bad choice for that spot anyway. Good it died early so I didn’t waste time on it.

- I then bought a sun-hardened 20g Madagascarensis, since that’s my second favorite cosmetically (and am not in a huge hurry for it to reach.monster status). Looks great and super healthy (and takes tons of sun)... but doesn’t seem to have grown at all in the year I’ve had it.  Maybe it will grow after I get it in the ground next spring, but for now it just stays "small & cute" in its pot.

- I don't have anything against Alfredii...just have a slight preference for Madagascarensis cosmetics . But they're both gorgeous palms!!! And as much as I love the look of Madagascarensis, I might second doubt my choice if it still looks "small & cute" many years from now.  Grow darn it!

Bottom line.: Alfredii is the safe bet... or you can be weird like me and wait PATIENTLY for Madagascarensis.

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Stacey Wright  |  Graphic Designer

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23 minutes ago, Billy said:

Forgot to add...

As I'm sure you already have as well, I've heard B. Mad is on the slower side. Alfredii on the other hand has blown me away with how fast they've grown for me. Such an easy grow it's not even funny. I'll post a before and after of one of mine that's easily tripled in size in 2 years. As soon as you get 'em in the ground and they establish they start going off. Hopefully the Madagascariensis taps in and starts cranking for you! I'd plant it sooner than later. Especially if there's no need for sun acclimation. 

Quite so:  B. madagascariensis is the slowest of the three.

 

Don't get me wrong, they're are slow.  Just that Alfie's and fenestralis are a less slow growers. I call them "the next CIDP"s replacements" . And they should be!

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5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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8 hours ago, GottmitAlex said:

Quite so:  B. madagascariensis is the slowest of the three.

Don't get me wrong, they're are slow.  Just that Alfie's and fenestralis are a less slow growers. I call them "the next CIDP"s replacements" . And they should be!

It's kinda funny how different they are in CA vs FL.  My biggest Alfie was planted in June 2018 as a 3g 5' tall palm.  It's now approaching 20' overall, and looks like it should start trunking later this summer or next spring.  It isn't quite as fast as a Mitis next to it, planted at the same height in March 2019...but pretty close!  Meanwhile my CIDP up front is barely bigger than when I bought it in April 2018.  It has grown maybe 1-2 feet in overall height in 4 years, the Alfie has grown 15 feet!

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On 5/17/2022 at 3:13 PM, iDesign said:

Don't have spacing advice, but wanted to add that the combo of Beccariophoenix + Bismarckia is my all-time favorite from a visual standpoint. 

They don't need to be as close as they are in this photo... but if they can be visible at the same time - surrounded by colorful tropical plants - it's Heaven on Earth in my book.

Here's my absolute favorite palm photo of all time, from the amazing gardens of Dennis Hundscheidt...

hundscheidt.jpg.57c2cb6fa2a78df844fcbbc4c23f5bd4.jpg

https://www.dennishundscheidt.com.au/

* I'm pretty sure that's a B. Fenestralis (not Alfredii), but the overall look would be similar. The contrast between the Bismarkia & Beccariophoenix leaves is breathtaking.

Unsolicited advice... Try to get a bit more color in the yard if you can. Cordyline (Tis)? Hot pink Bloodleaf Plant? Angel Trumpets? Queen Emma Lily? Red Banana Plant? a Dark Purple Bush? Don't need much, but a little color sprinkled in can make the green plants pop. :wub2: 

Spectacular deisgn! 

 

I have mine 15 feet apart in Fresno. They're touching fronds now. 

20220525_073409.jpg

Edited by Josue Diaz
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As people mentioned, these grow to a massive size. I placed one on either end of my backyard property. I tried to upload a pano, but that wouldn’t work. So you’ll have to take the 3 pics as one to get an idea of how I placed mine. (The alfredi is in the corner if the 3rd pic)
I’d give them quite a wide berth each. 

2ACF6F19-6089-4B42-A1AB-89952F7759FD.jpeg

B7C306A7-0A07-487E-ACE9-44F440EE2755.jpeg

F4D454E3-C8FB-48F2-BAF8-C7430606D38A.jpeg

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