Landscaping with crushed stone. Watering palms

[MSX]

Hello everyone, I'm going to use crushed stone as a ground cover/mulch for our entire front yard but I'm not sure what to do with my palms. I have a couple of newly planted Windmills that already started pushing new fronds and one Washingtonia planted last year. As I'm regularly deep watering my palms with a hose there is a soil berm all the way around the outside of the hole to retain the water.

This is how it is right now. Sorry for my silly painting

 

But what to do with this when a truck with the crushed stone arrives - should I a) just leave as it is and fill the existing bermed hole with the crushed stone and continue watering with the hose or throw a drip tubing with emitters on top of the crushed gravel?

or b) back fill the hole with soil, cover it with the gravel and connect it to the drip system? Any advice/opinion on what is more appropriate here is greatly appreciated! Thanks

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by MSX

[Silas_Sancona]

1 minute ago, MSX said:

Hello everyone, we're going to use crushed stone as a ground cover/mulch for our entire front yard but I'm not sure what to do with my palms. I have a couple of newly planted Windmills that already started pushing new fronds and one Washingtonia planted last year. As I'm regularly deep watering my palms with a hose there is a soil berm all the way around the outside of the hole to retain the water.

This is how it is right now. Sorry for my silly painting

 

But what to do with this when we start covering everything with the crushed stone - should I a) just leave as it is and fill the existing bermed hole with the crushed stone and continue watering with the hose or throw a drip tubing with emitters on top of the crushed gravel?

or b) back fill the hole with soil, cover it with the gravel and connect it to the drip system? Any advice/opinion on what is more appropriate here is greatly appreciated! Thanks

 

Yes, stone is a great mulch, even right up to the base of your palms.. If you look at 90% of yards here in / around Phoenix( really anywhere here in AZ, or many areas around Palm Springs in CA. ), you'll see most yards are " mulched " w/ gravel..  Unlike wood chips, at least here, stone won't wash out during our summer Monsoon rains, or blow away. It also slowly releases various nutrients over time and will help reduce evaporation, while allowing plenty of air to move down into, and through the soil. 

As far as Organics, i allow roughly half of whatever leaves drop or get blown in to lay between the stone and break down.. At the old house, had lots of Mushrooms popping up thru the stone when we got enough rain which tells me plenty of Organic material was sifting down through the stone to the soil below. I  also planted Spring and Summer annual natives in the rock, and would leaves the roots in the soil when removed once they had died down for each season. 

There's a thread in Ohana Nui titled " Little Bit of Everything " @teddytn had started where i detailed re-doing the front yard of a rental i'm currently in. While i can't plant palms here, you can see everything else has stone right up to the bases of the plants.  I also bury all emitters from the drip i installed, rather than placing on top of the gravel.  Part of the reason for this is our sun will cook anything dark colored, inc. drip line / emitters.  Looks better buried anyway.

One thing i did do w/ some plants was top the " bowl " they're planted in w/ ..what is sometimes referred to here as " Chet " ..which is essentially gravel that is larger than sand grain size, but smaller than 1/4th inch sized stone.. I myself go out into the desert here and collect such material from a couple large washes ( A regional term for seasonally dry streams )  Emitters placed near those plants are laid between the " Chet " and larger stone topping it.

Hopefully this helps..

[Allen]

I'd run drip in there if you could.  You can also lay 3/4 pvc in there under the gravel to get close then fit 1/2 drip line and drip connectors to it.  

[Silas_Sancona]

8 minutes ago, Allen said:

I'd run drip in there if you could.  You can also lay 3/4 pvc in there under the gravel to get close then fit 1/2 drip line and drip connectors to it.  

Agree, Drip makes everything so much easier..

This is exactly what i did.. using an adapter that screws into 1/2" risers off the 3/4th inch irrigation line..

Main entry bed before dropping stone/ adding the 1/2" drip line. Can see the adapter ( where 1/2" line will run from ) in the picture. One thing i didn't like about this yard was the 3/4" line was a little closer to the surface in these areas, making burying the adapter harder to do.



Right before the gravel was delivered. Can see how i laid out the 1/2" line.. " Spaghetti " runs off the 1/2" line to the plants ( only a few things in that bed right now ) Used some old metal wire to form pins to hold the 1/2" line in place.

[Allen]

Once you lay the 3/4 pvc pipe in the hard to get to areas before the stone goes in then you get any adapter you want that has a threaded end then use something like this to add your 1/2 poly drip line.  You can then add drippers or drip line.  You will need the standard drip stuff like timer, filter, pressure regulator at the faucet/irrigation valve.  

https://www.lowes.com/pd/LASCO-3-4-in-x-3-4-in-x-3-4-in-dia-Adapter-PVC-Fitting/3339820

https://www.dripdepot.com/item/threads-by-barb-tubing-coupling-adapter-thread-size-three-quarter-inch-mpt-barb-size-half-inch

https://www.dripdepot.com/item/polyethylene-tubing-size-half-inch-600-inch-inside-diameter-by-700-inch-od-length-50-feet

 

[redbeard917]

 Nice drawings. With regards to the last one, I think it might not be good for the palm to bury it too deep. I'm not familiar with your conditions there in Uzbekistan. Were you planning on keeping the water ring (soil berm) or is that only to get the palm established?

[MSX]

23 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Yes, stone is a great mulch, even right up to the base of your palms.. If you look at 90% of yards here in / around Phoenix( really anywhere here in AZ, or many areas around Palm Springs in CA. ), you'll see most yards are " mulched " w/ gravel..  Unlike wood chips, at least here, stone won't wash out during our summer Monsoon rains, or blow away. It also slowly releases various nutrients over time and will help reduce evaporation, while allowing plenty of air to move down into, and through the soil. 

As far as Organics, i allow roughly half of whatever leaves drop or get blown in to lay between the stone and break down.. At the old house, had lots of Mushrooms popping up thru the stone when we got enough rain which tells me plenty of Organic material was sifting down through the stone to the soil below. I  also planted Spring and Summer annual natives in the rock, and would leaves the roots in the soil when removed once they had died down for each season. 

There's a thread in Ohana Nui titled " Little Bit of Everything " @teddytn had started where i detailed re-doing the front yard of a rental i'm currently in. While i can't plant palms here, you can see everything else has stone right up to the bases of the plants.  I also bury all emitters from the drip i installed, rather than placing on top of the gravel.  Part of the reason for this is our sun will cook anything dark colored, inc. drip line / emitters.  Looks better buried anyway.

One thing i did do w/ some plants was top the " bowl " they're planted in w/ ..what is sometimes referred to here as " Chet " ..which is essentially gravel that is larger than sand grain size, but smaller than 1/4th inch sized stone.. I myself go out into the desert here and collect such material from a couple large washes ( A regional term for seasonally dry streams )  Emitters placed near those plants are laid between the " Chet " and larger stone topping it.

Hopefully this helps..

Thanks a lot for your input! Well, here one large bag of imported conifer chips mulch cost nearly the same as a whole truck of crushed stone, so this is expensive if your project is larger than a small flowers bed size. Another important thing is that nobody actually guarantees that wood/bark chips mulch come from healthy trees, from healthy forests, and so free of bark beetle or woodworm eggs. Apart from palms, I have plenty of conifers, I started many of them from scratch such as nice arizona and mediterranian cypress trees, platycladus, almond trees, I don't want to put them at risk because I don't personally feel that this type of mulching is hundred percent free of bio hazards like these. Another option was a regular lawn but when we sat down and calculated all the maintenance costs and the time we gave up this idea. So the only option to cover the ground was to use the stone, crushed stone. It's bio risk free, always looks clean and requires no maintenance.

By the way, do you use some weed membrane barrier (weed cloth) under gravel? And do you have the problem with weeds?

[MSX]

23 hours ago, Allen said:

I'd run drip in there if you could.  You can also lay 3/4 pvc in there under the gravel to get close then fit 1/2 drip line and drip connectors to it.  

Yes, we do have a drip system, I just never connected my palms to it thinking they would benefit more from infrequent but very deep manual waterings twice a week or so, but the amont of palms is slowly and steadly growing and manual watering becomes a time problem!

2 or 3 emitters per palm is enough for the young palms like mines?

Edited April 30, 2022 by MSX

[MSX]

7 hours ago, redbeard917 said:

 Nice drawings. With regards to the last one, I think it might not be good for the palm to bury it too deep. I'm not familiar with your conditions there in Uzbekistan. Were you planning on keeping the water ring (soil berm) or is that only to get the palm established?

Thanks! Yes, I also think so I don't feel like buring it completely, after all crushed stone is technically a mulch and I think I will leave everything as it is and just fill the hole with stones as if they were wood chips. And yeah I read it everywhere to do the bermed ring when you plant the palm but I just kept the soil berms, they're useful when you manualy watering the palms so you know when to stop, it may aesthetically look not that good but it does its job.

[Allen]

14 minutes ago, MSX said:

Yes, we do have a drip system, I just never connected my palms to it thinking they would benefit more from infrequent but very deep manual waterings twice a week or so, but the amont of palms is slowly and steadly growing and manual watering becomes a time problem!

2 or 3 emitters per palm is enough for the young palms like mines?

Yes I'd say so.  I am not familiar with your soil and temps but you can either do individual emitters matched to the rest of the emitters on your system or run a drip line like this:

https://www.dripdepot.com/item/quarter-inch-polyethylene-dripline-emitter-spacing-6-inch-flow-rate-half-gph-roll-length-100-feet-color-brown

or this but you need to match the flow rate with other emitters on your drip system.  More emitters for more water

https://www.dripdepot.com/item/irritec-idrop-button-dripper-flow-rate-one-gph

 

 

[Silas_Sancona]

52 minutes ago, MSX said:

Thanks a lot for your input! Well, here one large bag of imported conifer chips mulch cost nearly the same as a whole truck of crushed stone, so this is expensive if your project is larger than a small flowers bed size. Another important thing is that nobody actually guarantees that wood/bark chips mulch come from healthy trees, from healthy forests, and so free of bark beetle or woodworm eggs. Apart from palms, I have plenty of conifers, I started many of them from scratch such as nice arizona and mediterranian cypress trees, platycladus, almond trees, I don't want to put them at risk because I don't personally feel that this type of mulching is hundred percent free of bio hazards like these. Another option was a regular lawn but when we sat down and calculated all the maintenance costs and the time we gave up this idea. So the only option to cover the ground was to use the stone, crushed stone. It's bio risk free, always looks clean and requires no maintenance.

By the way, do you use some weed membrane barrier (weed cloth) under gravel? And do you have the problem with weeds?

Absolutely hate wood chips, lol ..Aside from the reasons you stated, it just looks awful ..in many cases anyway..   Gravel looks a million times cleaner and yes, very low chance  stone could introduce something potentially harmful.  As mentioned, don't have to constantly refresh / replenish stone/ gravel,  unlike wood chips.  If laid correctly, and maintained, stone / gravel might need to have a fresh layer laid down once every 4-7 years ..maybe longer.. Try going that long w/ out  replenishing wood mulch.

Aside from all that, What do many palms grow in in habitat? desert adapted sp esp?  No one out there trucking mulch to lay around them.

Size wise, the project i just did was 14 tons of 1" gravel, or covering approx, 1500sq ft.  Another, a Ballet Studio my landlord's wife owns/ operates,  Think that was around 3K sq ft.. ( May be grossly under estimating the Sq ft 'age on that project, lol )

As far as weed barrier,  ..some people use it. I don't. Is actually bad for the soil below, ..not allowing it to breathe properly / excess runoff to absorb correctly / evenly  ..and no, despite what some people might assume,  it doesn't stop " weedy " native and introduced pioneering - type annual plants from growing..  We also have Bermuda Grass here which tears right through weed barrier.  Believe it is illegal to install anyway here in Arizona, or maybe just in my part of AZ.   Regardless, w/ stone the deeper you go, the less weeds can establish themselves..

Good example:  Notice many people will lay only the minimal amount of rock ..say 2" deep..  Not bad,  ..but laying 4" ..or even 6" deep  < ..if you are able to.. >  is better / more economical..  4" is actually perfect in my personal opinion.. Not too shallow so that weedy stuff can easily root in, ..but not too deep either.  At 4" depth, majority of weeds / unwanted seedlings that might pop up come out pretty effortlessly when pulled.

[msporty]

I did crushed pea gravel in part of my garden but I’ve been getting rid of it and replacing it with mulch. 
 

It looks awesome at first but declines with time for many reasons: soil disturbance (gophers, additional plantings), plant litter settling, etc… Also, my drip line started migrating up through the gravel. 
 

Over time, I added a few layers, but my long term concern was turning fertile soil into a rocky habitat. It’s obvious that some of the gravel migrates down into the soil. I’ve since raked out the gravel and gone back to mulch. At least mulch breaks down into awesome compost and improves soil with time. 
 

I debated a weed screens too, but it breaks down over time, but may help keep the layers separate longer. 
 

If gravel is cheap and you don’t mind rocky soil, go for it. You can leave your water basins — they will look uniform once the gravel is leveled. 
 

Looking forward to seeing some photos of your handy work!!!

[Silas_Sancona]

25 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Absolutely hate wood chips, lol ..Aside from the reasons you stated, it just looks awful ..in many cases anyway..   Gravel looks a million times cleaner and yes, very low chance  stone could introduce something potentially harmful.  As mentioned, don't have to constantly refresh / replenish stone/ gravel,  unlike wood chips.  If laid correctly, and maintained, stone / gravel might need to have a fresh layer laid down once every 4-7 years ..maybe longer.. Try going that long w/ out  replenishing wood mulch.

Aside from all that, What do many palms grow in in habitat? desert adapted sp esp?  No one out there trucking mulch to lay around them.

Size wise, the project i just did was 14 tons of 1" gravel, or covering approx, 1500sq ft.  Another, a Ballet Studio my landlord's wife owns/ operates,  Think that was around 3K sq ft.. ( May be grossly under estimating the Sq ft 'age on that project, lol )

As far as weed barrier,  ..some people use it. I don't. Is actually bad for the soil below, ..not allowing it to breathe properly / excess runoff to absorb correctly / evenly  ..and no, despite what some people might assume,  it doesn't stop " weedy " native and introduced pioneering - type annual plants from growing..  We also have Bermuda Grass here which tears right through weed barrier.  Believe it is illegal to install anyway here in Arizona, or maybe just in my part of AZ.   Regardless, w/ stone the deeper you go, the less weeds can establish themselves..

Good example:  Notice many people will lay only the minimal amount of rock ..say 2" deep..  Not bad,  ..but laying 4" ..or even 6" deep  < ..if you are able to.. >  is better / more economical..  4" is actually perfect in my personal opinion.. Not too shallow so that weedy stuff can easily root in, ..but not too deep either.  At 4" depth, majority of weeds / unwanted seedlings that might pop up come out pretty effortlessly when pulled.

A couple more things i'll add regarding stone / gravel..  Regarding color, obviously, dark colored stone will retain the most heat.. Also, when you're looking at color options, assuming places that sell stone there offer up choices,  if say the exterior of your home is dark,  go with a lighter colored stone..  Earth toned stone usually works w/ a lot of color schemes.  The two colors i'd absolutely avoid ( hopefully they're not available where you're at, lol ), Blinding White Marble Chips, and anything red toned ..unless it works w/ the color(s) of your home.

If, once the gravel is laid, it looks kind of flat and " ok ",  but missing something, you can also add contrasting colored, larger rocks ( Called Rip Rap here, or easier to install / move boulders ) later to make a flat area of gravel look more appealing to the eye / give it some varied elevation ..so to say..  I'm slowly doing this here in some areas by collecting what larger rocks i can transport from out in the desert.

The " Utah Projects " thread, started by @RyManUtah offers up some excellent ideas.. inc. adding in various sized stone / areas of different colored / textured gravel  if something like that might interest you.  In his personal blog  @LJG  chronicled doing some stone work a couple years ago..  Excellent read as well..

[MSX]

On 4/30/2022 at 11:15 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Aside from all that, What do many palms grow in in habitat? desert adapted sp esp?  No one out there trucking mulch to lay around them.
 

Windmills and California fan palms mostly, you see them growing everywhere here. As for mulching, you won't see many properties doing that, people usually just leave the ground uncovered, pulling the weeds as soon as they sprout. some opt for lawns but you needs tons of water in the desert to keep it green and alive, and even so they often turn yellow/brown in the winter and in the summer when the temperature reaches its peaks and air humidity hits its lows because grass seed blends widely sold often unsuited to desert climate.

  

On 4/30/2022 at 11:15 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

As far as weed barrier,  ..some people use it. I don't. Is actually bad for the soil below, ..not allowing it to breathe properly / excess runoff to absorb correctly / evenly  ..and no, despite what some people might assume,  it doesn't stop " weedy " native and introduced pioneering - type annual plants from growing..  We also have Bermuda Grass here which tears right through weed barrier.  Believe it is illegal to install anyway here in Arizona, or maybe just in my part of AZ.   Regardless, w/ stone the deeper you go, the less weeds can establish themselves..

Good example:  Notice many people will lay only the minimal amount of rock ..say 2" deep..  Not bad,  ..but laying 4" ..or even 6" deep  < ..if you are able to.. >  is better / more economical..  4" is actually perfect in my personal opinion.. Not too shallow so that weedy stuff can easily root in, ..but not too deep either.  At 4" depth, majority of weeds / unwanted seedlings that might pop up come out pretty effortlessly when pulled.

Thanks a lot for this very important information, so we will need a thicker layer 4"+ to keep the weeds under control.

 

On 4/30/2022 at 11:59 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

A couple more things i'll add regarding stone / gravel..  Regarding color, obviously, dark colored stone will retain the most heat.. Also, when you're looking at color options, assuming places that sell stone there offer up choices,  if say the exterior of your home is dark,  go with a lighter colored stone..  Earth toned stone usually works w/ a lot of color schemes.  The two colors i'd absolutely avoid ( hopefully they're not available where you're at, lol ), Blinding White Marble Chips, and anything red toned ..unless it works w/ the color(s) of your home.

I think I will opt for a simpler standard grayish color closer to a concrete driveway color so they won't contrast with each other making the whole space visually larger, like pictured here

By the way, as you mentioned red tones the other day I saw mulching with red crushed rock granite and that actually reminded me martian landscape lol

Edited May 1, 2022 by MSX

[MSX]

On 4/30/2022 at 11:58 PM, msporty said:

I did crushed pea gravel in part of my garden but I’ve been getting rid of it and replacing it with mulch. 

It looks awesome at first but declines with time for many reasons: soil disturbance (gophers, additional plantings), plant litter settling, etc… Also, my drip line started migrating up through the gravel. 

Over time, I added a few layers, but my long term concern was turning fertile soil into a rocky habitat. It’s obvious that some of the gravel migrates down into the soil. I’ve since raked out the gravel and gone back to mulch. At least mulch breaks down into awesome compost and improves soil with time. 

I debated a weed screens too, but it breaks down over time, but may help keep the layers separate longer. 

If gravel is cheap and you don’t mind rocky soil, go for it. You can leave your water basins — they will look uniform once the gravel is leveled. 

Looking forward to seeing some photos of your handy work!!!

Thank you for your comment! How do you think, could be the size of gravel/stone the answer to your problem with stone mulching? Maybe the larger the size the better when it comes to stones, no?

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, MSX said:

Windmills and California fan palms mostly, you see them growing everywhere here. As for mulching, you won't see many properties doing that, people usually just leave the ground uncovered, pulling the weeds as soon as they sprout. some opt for lawns but you needs tons of water in the desert to keep it green and alive, and even so they often turn yellow/brown in the winter and in the summer when the temperature reaches its peaks and air humidity hits its lows because grass seed blends widely sold often unsuited to desert climate.

  

Thanks a lot for this very important information, so we will need a thicker layer 4"+ to keep the weeds under control.

 

I think I will opt for a simple standard grayish color closer to a concrete driveway color so they won't contrast with each other making the whole space visually larger, like pictured here

By the way, as you mentioned red tones the other day I saw mulching with red crushed rock granite and that actually reminded me martian landscape lol

See plenty of yards where nothing is laid, or a thin layer of something similar too paver base is laid down.. Some people keep it weeded / looking good, others let it go.  Lawns are  a different story.. Phoenix area used to be dominated by them, until many people started realizing what a waste of time, $$, and space they are, let alone how much water they consume. W/ our multi- decade drought, guaranteed more lawns will disappear in the near future.. Still see plenty of large lawns in certain neighborhoods,  but most new housing developments forbid extensive lawn areas, esp. front yard lawns. Makes sense since no one really uses the front lawn for entertainment purposes. 

Since the primary " Turf Grass " here is Bermuda, ..for now anyway,  it browns up in the winter in most areas, esp if we have a cooler winter. ..Some will leave it alone, other folks over seed with something like Annual Rye or Fescue,  which typically dies out just as the Bermuda greens up in Spring.


Agree, yards, or commercial landscapes that have used red toned stone, present a distinctly  " unique " view.   Only a couple i've seen where it actually looked good.. 

There's a yard i'll have to get a picture of where they used a greenish colored rock..  Very unique for sure..

Gray / Earth toned, as mentioned, is much easier on the eye for sure and does open up the view of the landscape.  In FL, some of the rock yards sold a stone called " Timberlite / Firelite " I wish was sold it here.. Really nice combination of earth tones, w/ some lighter / darker tones in it. Is a type of Lava Rock as well, so it isn't as weighty as Granite or Limestone - derived gravel. Use what i brought w/ me in pots i stage certain plants in.  Blue, dark Gray, or black-ish colored stone can look great, but forget that look here in the desert w/ or heat.

Here at this house, used a sandy - colored limestone - derived stone that works w/ both the driveway ( standard concrete, like the picture you posted ) but also lets all the green from plants added, the lawn area i kept, trees in the yard stand out.  Is a little bright in sun, but colors nicely when wet.  The darker colored boulders i'm working on scattering in add a nice contrast. " Standard " stone used in a lot of yards/ Commercial designs here?,  a golden - toned Granite,  ..Isn't bad,  but is greatly over used..

As far as depth,  ~as long as it is within your budget~,  4" depth is good for sure..  1" sized stone is good too for lessening the amount of weedy stuff that might try and root in later as well. Was going to use 1" stone here, but i guess the Quarry that supplies the specific stone to the place i bought from doesn't produce that size any more.  What i got is a mix of 1" and  1/2".. Not bad, but, would have liked the bigger rock better.

Edited May 1, 2022 by Silas_Sancona
edit

[MSX]

Still have no time to order and work the crushed stone for my project but decided to start from the drip irrigation for my winter survivors, hand watering is kinda relaxing but during the last year had became just too time consuming. I wonder if three adjustable flow rate emitters would be enough for water loving Windmills (loamy to clay soil, arid-desert)? Thanks

 

 

[aztropic]

On 4/30/2022 at 11:59 AM, Silas_Sancona said:

If, once the gravel is laid, it looks kind of flat and " ok ",  but missing something, you can also add contrasting colored, larger rocks ( Called Rip Rap here, or easier to install / move boulders ) later to make a flat area of gravel look more appealing to the eye / give it some varied elevation ..so to say..  I'm slowly doing this here in some areas by collecting what larger rocks i can transport from out in the desert. @RyManUtah @LJG

Example

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, aztropic said:

Example

This is a good start, lay out-wise ( ...That now needs to be filled to the brim with cool plants, inc. replacing the Elm with something like Ficus petiolaris / F. p. palmeri, cotinifolia, or trigonata, ...and/ or various Bursera sp./ Pachycormus discolor, Cyrtocarpa edulis ...And some Brahea, Sabal uresana  ..just to get the ball rolling,  lol )

In this situation, i would widen the " stream ", esp. toward where it meets the sidewalk ..Perhaps emphasizing more curvature in sections of it ( if the area is wide enough to do so )  Filling the bed of the stream with wash grit, and create two tall / wide mounds on either side of the "wash", topped w/ areas of rip rap / larger boulders where other neat stuff could be tucked into..