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Flowering Mazari + Cold Hardy Avocado

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buffy

This is my 10 year oldish Kashmir Mazari. If you look up at the top of the fronds, you can see a giant inflorescence snaking it's way up top. It's the first meristem to go to flower. Also, just to the left of my friend Juan, you can see my avocado tree that supports three varieties through grafting.  Pretty cool to have a fruiting avocado north of I-20. 

N3zFTShPsz4lJDQsqOPQuLodK07wkl_51qP3JmxrLSeRBTPuPOPGETYlVTKRPvliJfubD9CsEms2GCOsAzDdtH_ur1d8mcFgybCvmja_IqjwxHmVSZHgJYLDnbQVlAoNtfR5Xuhlzx4cy6fusUiE2S7zWVFNY4vsyIW5kqAq3RuDp8NYejBoVNvBvdb2DtHOC8Y4i2hrgg0wM8Y5awjY1bKEcG0lT2QNvG-6A6G5yWuakG3PVMk4ZOgP3B3iBqPULF1T9pr1Hvp70gqs7YZBNNoUwADaytzu5zILa1iB6JkLjxTJcz794wN-bMzTvSGELk3odcTYAWstIzvoDJrDxshDR626pG5h8_hBb31N_GCfRopZKuRwVbMStGFBczU1qTq-UPPPuP30LtLrcrhPAcYHPzWekHZ55iWnxwUM0Ty75sh_rB4Vr10dcfTSW8v2U7EqFBnazNt8msbwd5rVtn4mgGXstkoonBQygqRAz3NAytVyNC-z-9ecDppneZpNnb_oi3_zQlI1nXV5gJh4TsD7b6kaGVYZUUYZjuBhc6P59eqc2EhA9nJpEOG0IxDa4SWS8dafL-lP9a86gVUCqxdEi3BxaiA8obgJd-kLu2i-TKUVo1LPF-ILK9rOOdGkUr6f0kwA5JkIAWlieuyzG8Quh_Xj-7LueAhUQWoj1VUzRXuNcY90UxPEePWgxXdV6z0iIC0d5lNR4729M-pPIuGEFBFeVdTtkr2c8o2iR-e-lD8N0-D53e-xSD19da8=w793-h1057-no?authuser=0

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amh

What cultivars and whats the rootstock?

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ShadyDan

Never realized Manzaris got that beefy, puts it in perspective a human beside it. The stem which flowers usually dies after flowering, correct?

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DAVEinMB
1 hour ago, buffy said:

 

N3zFTShPsz4lJDQsqOPQuLodK07wkl_51qP3JmxrLSeRBTPuPOPGETYlVTKRPvliJfubD9CsEms2GCOsAzDdtH_ur1d8mcFgybCvmja_IqjwxHmVSZHgJYLDnbQVlAoNtfR5Xuhlzx4cy6fusUiE2S7zWVFNY4vsyIW5kqAq3RuDp8NYejBoVNvBvdb2DtHOC8Y4i2hrgg0wM8Y5awjY1bKEcG0lT2QNvG-6A6G5yWuakG3PVMk4ZOgP3B3iBqPULF1T9pr1Hvp70gqs7YZBNNoUwADaytzu5zILa1iB6JkLjxTJcz794wN-bMzTvSGELk3odcTYAWstIzvoDJrDxshDR626pG5h8_hBb31N_GCfRopZKuRwVbMStGFBczU1qTq-UPPPuP30LtLrcrhPAcYHPzWekHZ55iWnxwUM0Ty75sh_rB4Vr10dcfTSW8v2U7EqFBnazNt8msbwd5rVtn4mgGXstkoonBQygqRAz3NAytVyNC-z-9ecDppneZpNnb_oi3_zQlI1nXV5gJh4TsD7b6kaGVYZUUYZjuBhc6P59eqc2EhA9nJpEOG0IxDa4SWS8dafL-lP9a86gVUCqxdEi3BxaiA8obgJd-kLu2i-TKUVo1LPF-ILK9rOOdGkUr6f0kwA5JkIAWlieuyzG8Quh_Xj-7LueAhUQWoj1VUzRXuNcY90UxPEePWgxXdV6z0iIC0d5lNR4729M-pPIuGEFBFeVdTtkr2c8o2iR-e-lD8N0-D53e-xSD19da8=w793-h1057-no?authuser=0

Juan looks like he's got some kinda crazy headdress on

Edited by DAVEinMB
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MarkbVet

Can't see your Picture(s), but nice to know you've got N. ritchiana thriving in your zone 8a.   That's my zone too, and I plan on trying one of these outdoors.  Any tips you have for keeping this species happy?  Not too much winter wet is probably the biggest thing... any soil amendments other than the typical 'great drainage'?    Would love to see the pic if you could repost it...  

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Swolte

Apparently the Kashmir form is more tolerant of humidity and cold! This surely peaked my interest. I cannot see the pic either!

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MarkbVet
4 hours ago, Swolte said:

Apparently the Kashmir form is more tolerant of humidity and cold! This surely peaked my interest. I cannot see the pic either!

Yeah, I dunno.   First I've heard of this.  I know the silver 'arabica' form is less hardy than regular N. ritchiana from Pakistan.    Kashmir I don't see for sale anywhere...any suggestions?  Hmmm, just looked it up, seems this variety is more green than blue/silver, if true then I'd be less interested in growing it...  Plantdelights lists it as quite small, 4 feet tall.    Would love to see more pics.

Edited by MarkbVet

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Swolte

I haven't seen 'Kashmir' for sale either so I am interested in how adult specimens look that are grown in different areas and if they retain their presumed increased cold hardiness in, for example, Texas. I think I have a small 'arabica'.

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buffy
16 hours ago, amh said:

What cultivars and whats the rootstock?

Pryor roots, Wilma and Opal grafts amongst the Pryor branches. I'm about to build a chicken coop structure around the whole thing to keep the raccoons from shredding the limbs to get to the fruit. I was a mad man last year when that happened. 

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buffy
10 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Can't see your Picture(s), but nice to know you've got N. ritchiana thriving in your zone 8a.   That's my zone too, and I plan on trying one of these outdoors.  Any tips you have for keeping this species happy?  Not too much winter wet is probably the biggest thing... any soil amendments other than the typical 'great drainage'?    Would love to see the pic if you could repost it...  

Without the summer heat, I'd bet it would be a struggle. The first 3-5 years it would lose spears every winter. At a certain size it became really tough. I had 20% burn at 8F in 2018. I didn't risk it in 2021. Otherwise, it's near bulletproof.  If you could see the picture, its silver, not white silver, but silver. It's weird that the picture isn't pulling up for y'all. Maybe right click and open in a separate window. 

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buffy
16 hours ago, ShadyDan said:

Never realized Manzaris got that beefy, puts it in perspective a human beside it. The stem which flowers usually dies after flowering, correct?

That's right. Each meristem dies after flowering. Something not really talked about on this palm is that it will branch above the ground.  New meristems will show up from the ground and along existing meristems.  It's a dense beast. This picture is right after I trimmed a lot of mass from the base. 

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GoatLockerGuns
17 hours ago, buffy said:

This is my 10 year oldish Kashmir Mazari. If you look up at the top of the fronds, you can see a giant inflorescence snaking it's way up top. It's the first meristem to go to flower. Also, just to the left of my friend Juan, you can see my avocado tree that supports three varieties through grafting.  Pretty cool to have a fruiting avocado north of I-20. 

N3zFTShPsz4lJDQsqOPQuLodK07wkl_51qP3JmxrLSeRBTPuPOPGETYlVTKRPvliJfubD9CsEms2GCOsAzDdtH_ur1d8mcFgybCvmja_IqjwxHmVSZHgJYLDnbQVlAoNtfR5Xuhlzx4cy6fusUiE2S7zWVFNY4vsyIW5kqAq3RuDp8NYejBoVNvBvdb2DtHOC8Y4i2hrgg0wM8Y5awjY1bKEcG0lT2QNvG-6A6G5yWuakG3PVMk4ZOgP3B3iBqPULF1T9pr1Hvp70gqs7YZBNNoUwADaytzu5zILa1iB6JkLjxTJcz794wN-bMzTvSGELk3odcTYAWstIzvoDJrDxshDR626pG5h8_hBb31N_GCfRopZKuRwVbMStGFBczU1qTq-UPPPuP30LtLrcrhPAcYHPzWekHZ55iWnxwUM0Ty75sh_rB4Vr10dcfTSW8v2U7EqFBnazNt8msbwd5rVtn4mgGXstkoonBQygqRAz3NAytVyNC-z-9ecDppneZpNnb_oi3_zQlI1nXV5gJh4TsD7b6kaGVYZUUYZjuBhc6P59eqc2EhA9nJpEOG0IxDa4SWS8dafL-lP9a86gVUCqxdEi3BxaiA8obgJd-kLu2i-TKUVo1LPF-ILK9rOOdGkUr6f0kwA5JkIAWlieuyzG8Quh_Xj-7LueAhUQWoj1VUzRXuNcY90UxPEePWgxXdV6z0iIC0d5lNR4729M-pPIuGEFBFeVdTtkr2c8o2iR-e-lD8N0-D53e-xSD19da8=w793-h1057-no?authuser=0

I can't see the picture in the original post, but I would love to actually see a picture of your flowering Nannorrhops ritchieana.  I have a 6 year old Nannorrhops ritchieana planted in here in San Antonio that is a VERY slow grower (it is shade grown though).  Is there any way you could post that picture via another means?

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buffy

Did this work?

juanavocadomazari.thumb.jpg.1f8c3afb7d705083f577ea4a214c1a8e.jpg

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MSX

Awesome Mazari! But what size it was when you planted it in the ground 10 years ago?

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GoatLockerGuns
2 hours ago, buffy said:

Did this work?

Yes...holy...that is a 10 year old palm?

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amh
3 hours ago, buffy said:

Pryor roots, Wilma and Opal grafts amongst the Pryor branches. I'm about to build a chicken coop structure around the whole thing to keep the raccoons from shredding the limbs to get to the fruit. I was a mad man last year when that happened. 

Okay, the second round of questions is where did you acquire the Pryor and grafts?

A cold hardy avocado project is in my future.

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amh
3 hours ago, buffy said:

It's weird that the picture isn't pulling up for y'all. Maybe right click and open in a separate window. 

This might be why the initial picture doesn't show.

I had right clicked, open image in new window, and received a google log in message. The next time I looked at the page, the picture no longer loaded, so it may be a security issue.

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buffy

I grew it from RPS seed. Now that I think of it, it could be closer 13 years old. 

I bought the avocado plants from Bill Schneider in Devine, Texas. I've kept it pruned down to a manageable size. I protect it below 20F. 

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MarkbVet
6 hours ago, buffy said:

Without the summer heat, I'd bet it would be a struggle. The first 3-5 years it would lose spears every winter. At a certain size it became really tough. I had 20% burn at 8F in 2018. I didn't risk it in 2021. Otherwise, it's near bulletproof.  If you could see the picture, its silver, not white silver, but silver. It's weird that the picture isn't pulling up for y'all. Maybe right click and open in a separate window. 

Heat won't be a problem where I'm going lol...  So. Oregon area is hottest in the entire state, warm Mediterranean climate.  Curious how much winter rain you get.    FYI you posted about this plant as a potted seedling (assuming same specimen) in late June 2009; eight years later it was 7 feet tall.  That's good growth!!  Hats off to ya!!!  Now if I could just fine a source besides seed....  

Edited by MarkbVet
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ShadyDan
4 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Heat won't be a problem where I'm going lol...  So. Oregon area is hottest in the entire state, warm Mediterranean climate.  Curious how much winter rain you get.    FYI you posted about this plant as a potted seedling (assuming same specimen) in late June 2009; eight years later it was 7 feet tall.  That's good growth!!  Hats off to ya!!!  Now if I could just fine a source besides seed....  

I’m technically a warm summer Mediterranean climate myself, but no way a manzari would survive here. It’s the combination of cool and wet like the rest of the PNW (even in Southern Oregon) I would worry about. Not the hot hot summers you will get down there. 

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Xenon

Gotta be the coolest palm in North Texas...it needs a monument :D

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MarkbVet
59 minutes ago, ShadyDan said:

I’m technically a warm summer Mediterranean climate myself, but no way a manzari would survive here. It’s the combination of cool and wet like the rest of the PNW (even in Southern Oregon) I would worry about. Not the hot hot summers you will get down there. 

Well... there's really no comparison between the Medford area and your area.  Unless I'm mistaken, you're in a cool semi-Mediterranean climate with some warm summer weather.  Medford is a true warm dry Mediterranean climate.  It's significantly hotter (than anywhere else in Oregon or Washington), and has a longer growing season each year, with much more sun/less clouds, and much much drier than you  (19 total inches of rain yearly, down to 10-12 in a dry year-- that qualifies as true desert conditions in the driest years).  WInters are NOT cool and wet there; it's cool and semi-dry.   Southwestern Oregon (non coastal) is basically California, climate wise.  The Rogue Valley exists in the northern edge of the California chaparral scrub/ Oak-Madrone woodland habitat.  Climate-wise it doesn't belong at all within the PNW;  it just happens to sit within the political map boundry of Oregon (just barely).   It's a great area to try to grow exotic palms.  I expect Mazari Palms (especially Kashmir variant) to do well there.  They probably wouldn't do well in my current area near Portland, for reasons you mentioned-- the darned winter wet.   I get 40 inches rain average in the Portland area, and would suspect that your area receives even a bit more?   That's the  polar opposite of the Medford climate.  I'm curious to see what Buffy says re: NE Texas rainfall, but I'd wager that region gets similar winter rainfall (or slightly more) than Medford Oregon does.  

Anyway, I'll find out in a few years when I plant all my palms in the ground down south--- gotta try it!!  :yay:

Edited by MarkbVet

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MarkbVet
49 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

Well... there's really no comparison between the Medford area and your area.  Unless I'm mistaken, you're in a cool semi-Mediterranean climate with some warm summer weather.  Medford is a true warm dry Mediterranean climate.  It's significantly hotter (than anywhere else in Oregon or Washington), and has a longer growing season each year, with much more sun/less clouds, and much much drier than you  (19 total inches of rain yearly, down to 10-12 in a dry year-- that qualifies as true desert conditions in the driest years).  WInters are NOT cool and wet there; it's cool and semi-dry.   Southwestern Oregon (non coastal) is basically California, climate wise.  The Rogue Valley exists in the northern edge of the California chaparral scrub/ Oak-Madrone woodland habitat.  Climate-wise it doesn't belong at all within the PNW;  it just happens to sit within the political map boundry of Oregon (just barely).   It's a great area to try to grow exotic palms.  I expect Mazari Palms (especially Kashmir variant) to do well there.  They probably wouldn't do well in my current area near Portland, for reasons you mentioned-- the darned winter wet.   I get 40 inches rain average in the Portland area, and would suspect that your area receives even a bit more?   That's the  polar opposite of the Medford climate.  I'm curious to see what Buffy says re: NE Texas rainfall, but I'd wager that region gets similar winter rainfall (or slightly more) than Medford Oregon does.  

Anyway, I'll find out in a few years when I plant all my palms in the ground down south--- gotta try it!!  :yay:

Just did a quick climate comparison out of curiosity (see what you made me do!):  Dallas area (NE Texas) average winter rain:  Nov= 2 inches, Dec/Jan= 1.5 inches each month, Feb= 2 inches, for a total of 7 inches for those 4 winter months.  Medford area average winter rain:    Nov=3 inches, Dec=3.25 inches, Jan= 2.75 inches, Feb=2.3 inches, for a total of 11.3 inches, so  a bit more than Dallas (approx. 1 inch more per month), but still nowhere near what Portland has.   Medford's humidity is also very low in the winter (less than 35% throughout these 4 months).  Your area (Nanoose Bay BC) has less overall rain than I would have guessed, approx. 33 inches a year (still almost double that of Medford), with winter breakdown as follows:  Nov rain=5.7 inches,  Dec=  5.5 inches,  Jan= 6.25 inches, and Feb= 3.3 inches, for a total of 20.75 inches,  again nearly double that of Medford.  You have more rain in those 4 winter months than Medford has for the entire year.  That's a huge % difference, and will likely make all the difference when growing Braheas,  C. humilis,  N. ritchiana, Washingtonia, etc.  

Edited by MarkbVet

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ShadyDan
37 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

Well... there's really no comparison between the Medford area and your area.  Unless I'm mistaken, you're in a cool semi-Mediterranean climate with some warm summer weather.  Medford is a true warm dry Mediterranean climate.  It's significantly hotter (than anywhere else in Oregon or Washington), and has a longer growing season each year, with much more sun/less clouds, and much much drier than you  (19 total inches of rain yearly, down to 10-12 in a dry year-- that qualifies as true desert conditions in the driest years).  WInters are NOT cool and wet there; it's cool and semi-dry.   Southwestern Oregon (non coastal) is basically California, climate wise.  The Rogue Valley exists in the northern edge of the California chaparral scrub/ Oak-Madrone woodland habitat.  Climate-wise it doesn't belong at all within the PNW;  it just happens to sit within the political map boundry of Oregon (just barely).   It's a great area to try to grow exotic palms.  I expect Mazari Palms (especially Kashmir variant) to do well there.  They probably wouldn't do well in my current area near Portland, for reasons you mentioned-- the darned winter wet.   I get 40 inches rain average in the Portland area, and would suspect that your area receives even a bit more?   That's the  polar opposite of the Medford climate.  I'm curious to see what Buffy says re: NE Texas rainfall, but I'd wager that region gets similar winter rainfall (or slightly more) than Medford Oregon does.  

Anyway, I'll find out in a few years when I plant all my palms in the ground down south--- gotta try it!!  :yay:

Nanoose (or Nanaimo where I get my climate data from) sits firmly within Csb (warm summer Mediterranean). Yes, Medford is significantly hotter in the summer but your winters are cool and damp, just like the rest of us in the PNW. Medford’s record low is actually significantly lower than that of Nanaimo. 
 

My company (forestry) has an office in Medford and they manage the same Douglas fir forests as we do on Vancouver Island. Sure, seed of a different provenance but still regular ole PNW dry zone Douglas fir forests. Although they don’t get nearly as much precip, there are still lonnnnngggg stretches of cool, overcast, damp weather that makes it the PNW. 
 

I’m still rootin for you to try manzari palms , but I wouldn’t downplay the cold wet weather that they hate… even in Medford. 

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MarkbVet
36 minutes ago, ShadyDan said:

Nanoose (or Nanaimo where I get my climate data from) sits firmly within Csb (warm summer Mediterranean). Yes, Medford is significantly hotter in the summer but your winters are cool and damp, just like the rest of us in the PNW. Medford’s record low is actually significantly lower than that of Nanaimo. 
 

My company (forestry) has an office in Medford and they manage the same Douglas fir forests as we do on Vancouver Island. Sure, seed of a different provenance but still regular ole PNW dry zone Douglas fir forests. Although they don’t get nearly as much precip, there are still lonnnnngggg stretches of cool, overcast, damp weather that makes it the PNW. 
 

I’m still rootin for you to try manzari palms , but I wouldn’t downplay the cold wet weather that they hate… even in Medford. 

Well, warm SUMMER Mediterranean climate isn't same as a truly warm Mediterranean climate; Southern Italy looks a lot like Southern Oregon, and not like B.C.   Record lows don't mean much here;  you're coastal so of course the record lows are higher.   Medford occasionally gets colder because of their clear cold (dry) nights, which are more common there due to the drier/sunnier weather; cloud cover & humidity (and ocean influence) keep temps up in winter.   Mazari handles cold down into zone 7 by some accounts; occasional 'lows' won't matter as much.  And the cool winter weather in Medford isn't nearly as damp as you suggest (literally 1/2 the rain, and humidity close to 30% through the winter, much drier conditions no matter which way you measure it, despite being  'cool').  If there's minimal rain and minimal humidity, where does this supposed damp moisture come from?  I know cactus growers that grow stuff unprotected in So. Oregon that consistently rots here in Portland if not covered.  Different level of moisture in the air and ground.  Not the same at all, so it's not really accurate to lump it together as  'cool overcast damp weather than makes it the PNW".   Cool and overcast in winter, yes (though less overcast than where you and I currently live, with more frequent sun breaks).  But damp (as in truly moist)?...not really.   As a side note:  there are no Douglas fir forests in Medford lol.   If someone tells you that,  I'll sell you some "prime" swampland in Florida.   You have to head into the hills/mountains (out of the Rogue Valley) to find any Doug firs.  Then you're out of the micro climate I'm referring to, into more elevated, cool terrain, sometimes with more precipitation, etc (as is often the case with mountain terrain).   The only native trees in Medford valley area are oaks, madrone, some tiny scrubby mountain mahogany, etc.  My family has lived in that area for over half a century, so I'm intimately familiar with the area.   Here's hoping the plants agree!!   ;-)

Edited by MarkbVet

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MarkbVet
15 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Well, warm SUMMER Mediterranean climate isn't same as a truly warm Mediterranean climate; Southern Italy looks a lot like Southern Oregon, and not like B.C.   Record lows don't mean much here;  you're coastal so of course the record lows are higher.   Medford occasionally gets colder because of their clear cold (dry) nights, which are more common there due to the drier/sunnier weather; cloud cover & humidity (and ocean influence) keep temps up in winter.   Mazari handles cold down into zone 7 by some accounts; occasional 'lows' won't matter as much.  And the cool winter weather in Medford isn't nearly as damp as you suggest (literally 1/2 the rain, and humidity close to 30% through the winter, much drier conditions no matter which way you measure it, despite being  'cool').  If there's minimal rain and minimal humidity, where does this supposed damp moisture come from?  I know cactus growers that grow stuff unprotected in So. Oregon that consistently rots here in Portland if not covered.  Different level of moisture in the air and ground.  Not the same at all, so it's not really accurate to lump it together as  'cool overcast damp weather than makes it the PNW".   Cool and overcast in winter, yes (though less overcast than where you and I currently live, with more frequent sun breaks).  But damp (as in truly moist)?...not really.   As a side note:  there are no Douglas fir forests in Medford lol.   If someone tells you that,  I'll sell you some "prime" swampland in Florida.   You have to head into the hills/mountains (out of the Rogue Valley) to find any Doug firs.  Then you're out of the micro climate I'm referring to, into more elevated, cool terrain, sometimes with more precipitation, etc (as is often the case with mountain terrain).   The only native trees in Medford valley area are oaks, madrone, some tiny scrubby mountain mahogany, etc.  My family has lived in that area for over half a century, so I'm intimately familiar with the area.   Here's hoping the plants agree!!   ;-)

FYI this is a good summary of the microclimate that the Medford area experiences (from an online summary):   "Medford sits in a rain shadow between the Cascade Range and Siskiyou Mountains called the Rogue Valley. As such, most of the rain associated with the Pacific Northwest and Oregon in particular skips Medford, making it drier and sunnier than the Willamette Valley. Medford's climate is considerably warmer, both in summer and winter, than its latitude would suggest, with a Mediterranean climate (Köppen Csa). Summers are akin to Eastern Oregon, and winters resemble the coast. Here, summer sees an average of 57 afternoons over 90 °F or 32.2 °C and eleven afternoons over 100 °F or 37.8 °C.[33] In August 1981, the high temperature reached over 110 °F or 43.3 °C for four consecutive days,[34] with two days reaching 114 °F or 45.6 °C.""

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teddytn
5 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

FYI this is a good summary of the microclimate that the Medford area experiences (from an online summary):   "Medford sits in a rain shadow between the Cascade Range and Siskiyou Mountains called the Rogue Valley. As such, most of the rain associated with the Pacific Northwest and Oregon in particular skips Medford, making it drier and sunnier than the Willamette Valley. Medford's climate is considerably warmer, both in summer and winter, than its latitude would suggest, with a Mediterranean climate (Köppen Csa). Summers are akin to Eastern Oregon, and winters resemble the coast. Here, summer sees an average of 57 afternoons over 90 °F or 32.2 °C and eleven afternoons over 100 °F or 37.8 °C.[33] In August 1981, the high temperature reached over 110 °F or 43.3 °C for four consecutive days,[34] with two days reaching 114 °F or 45.6 °C.""

That will get those sabals growing for sure! Will change the game with agaves and cactus down there too. 

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MarkbVet
17 hours ago, teddytn said:

That will get those sabals growing for sure! Will change the game with agaves and cactus down there too. 

Yes the hope is that long hot summers and relatively dry winters will favor some of these palm tree species that I don't dare plant in the ground around Portland.  The plants will have the final say, of course!  But the desert plants definitely favor the So. Oregon climate more than Portland;  we'll see if the palm trees agree with the cacti. 

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GoatLockerGuns
23 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

FYI this is a good summary of the microclimate that the Medford area experiences (from an online summary):

Aside from a few outliers, the historical climatology definitely looks promising.  The chart below (from NOAA/NWS) would suggest a solid Zone 8b/9a.  But like you said, a narrow one confined to that valley.  I stayed in Medford, Oregon back in 2015 (first and only trip to Oregon thus far) as part of a larger hiking trip to Crater Lake National Park and Rogue River.  I think I remember seeing some tall Washingtonia spp. around town.  I drove up there via I-5 when I was living in Fairfield, California.  There were definitely large Washingtonia spp. growing in Redding, California when I passed through, which is not that much warmer than Medford it would appear (at least from year after year data, albeit not as many outlier lows, or as severe).  Good luck with your palm growing efforts there.  Those years with single digit lows are a little concerning; however, as may of us here on Palmtalk can attest, definitely recoverable/protectable when they occur again.  There are many on here that would be jealous of that zone/area from a palm growing perspective.

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MarkbVet
9 hours ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Aside from a few outliers, the historical climatology definitely looks promising.  The chart below (from NOAA/NWS) would suggest a solid Zone 8b/9a.  But like you said, a narrow one confined to that valley.  I stayed in Medford, Oregon back in 2015 (first and only trip to Oregon thus far) as part of a larger hiking trip to Crater Lake National Park and Rogue River.  I think I remember seeing some tall Washingtonia spp. around town.  I drove up there via I-5 when I was living in Fairfield, California.  There were definitely large Washingtonia spp. growing in Redding, California when I passed through, which is not that much warmer than Medford it would appear (at least from year after year data, albeit not as many outlier lows, or as severe).  Good luck with your palm growing efforts there.  Those years with single digit lows are a little concerning; however, as may of us here on Palmtalk can attest, definitely recoverable/protectable when they occur again.  There are many on here that would be jealous of that zone/area from a palm growing perspective.

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Thanks for compiling that data in an easily accessible format!   It's probably safest to call it zone 8a-b, but the occasional lows (3 events in 25 years) are into zone 7 temps... the only 'good' thing about those cold events is that they are typically  1) brief and 2) calm/clear usually, not harsh blowing winds and frozen precipitation.  The coldest winter nights down there tend to be cloudless (hence the cold air).   So I think many species of palms that are rated cold hardy may handle it ok once  they are established.  The summer heat and relatively dry winters are the biggest positives; it also warms up earlier/stays warm later than areas further north (such as where i'm at in the Portland Oregon area).   This week the weather projects mostly as mid-60's F in Medford (high of 74F one day);  but only mid 50's in the Portland area.   About this time of year we really start to see the differences, with many more sunny/warm days in the Rogue Valley than I get to see where I'm currently at.   My parents stayed in Medford when I moved north for work, and they would always call and tell me how nice it was there on any given day in April/May, when I was dealing with rain/clouds/cool damp weather still.    I think they wanted me to move back closer to them lol.    I do miss that weather for sure.  

I don't recall having noticed any Washingtonias in Medford (but there could easily be some, it's a good sized town now).  I do recall the college campus in Ashland having a couple good sized Washingtonias there when i was a student in the early 1980's, but I think they were taken out during construction projects since then.   I also saw a decent sized Washingtonia in front of a bank in Roseburg in the 1990's (further north, but still more warm/dry than northern Oregon/Willamette Valley).  

Well, in a few years I get to plant a lot of palm species and see what takes and what thrives best.   For now,  they're in pots and protected in winter.   If I get one of those low temp events down south, I may have to protect some plants, especially when they're young.  Hoping to get lucky and have 3-5 years in the ground with very mild winter temps, so they gain some size & hardiness before being tested by cold.  Fingers crossed...

Edited by MarkbVet

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MarkbVet

Ok, @buffy you did it, you made me buy Kashmir Mazari palm seeds!  Found a place in Europe  ((Seeds of World) that has them, 10 seeds (including shipping) for about $11  U.S.    So I figured what the heck, worth a try, even if I may be old 'n gray by the time the plant(s) are decent sized!    Or maybe not, if I can get them to grow at the speed that yours did.   :w00:

Edited by MarkbVet

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Jesse PNW

good luck Mark...  I've had 2 shipments of palm seeds intercepted and destroyed by US Customs in the last couple months.  They won't allow seeds from Canada or Europe, but seeds from China skated through just fine!  So at least there's that. 

I too would like to get ahold of some Mazari Nannorhops.  I've been to Mazari Sharif a couple times, it's locally referred to as Mazar, I assume that's where the name comes from.  Unfortunately that's before I was into palms, otherwise I may have been able to acquire some seeds directly from the source.   Unfortunately these are one of many palms that I don't think would do well up here (at least where I live) because it is said to require hot summers to thrive.  I know your climate is a little warmer than mine, but I think the majority of the PNW is too mild for most palms that like the heat. 

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5 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

good luck Mark...  I've had 2 shipments of palm seeds intercepted and destroyed by US Customs in the last couple months.  They won't allow seeds from Canada or Europe, but seeds from China skated through just fine!  So at least there's that. 

I too would like to get ahold of some Mazari Nannorhops.  I've been to Mazari Sharif a couple times, it's locally referred to as Mazar, I assume that's where the name comes from.  Unfortunately that's before I was into palms, otherwise I may have been able to acquire some seeds directly from the source.   Unfortunately these are one of many palms that I don't think would do well up here (at least where I live) because it is said to require hot summers to thrive.  I know your climate is a little warmer than mine, but I think the majority of the PNW is too mild for most palms that like the heat. 

Yup,  my current (non Kashmir) seedling is gonna stay potted until I head south, and protected in winter.   Will put it out in my desert garden (south exposure, hot, all day sun) in the summer. Then It will go in the ground eventually after I move, plenty of heat where I'm headed (no, I don't mean Hades!)  Will probably pick up a larger plant from Junglemusic or Fairview before I move.   Geez I hope the seeds make it, maybe the company won't put their name on the box.  :wacko:

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MarkbVet

@GoatLockerGuns I looked at a couple of those cold events in more detail,  and they were kinda what I was thinking/hoping would be the case; temps dropped low at night for 2-3 days,  then 20 degrees higher in day time (likely due to clear sunny skies).  So the plants would be exposed to a handful of hours of below-10F air, then up again during the days.  Probably calm air too.  That should be friendlier than a palmageddon-type severe-weather freeze event where winds whipped the plants and temps stayed down for days at a time.  At least, that's my thinking (but hey, I'm an optimist, one kinda has to be if you want to try growing 'exotic' plants out of their usual habitats.  I'm choosing my palm species somewhat carefully though, so as to not be silly about it.  Hence no Bismarckia,  even though I'd really love to have one!

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Jesse PNW

For me, the ones that got intercepted specifically said "seeds" on the label....  The ones that made it said "beans".... I wonder where they draw the line.... pit, kernel, nut, ovule, grain, etc.  I also had a couple types of fern spore destroyed (as documented by Customs).  Thank God we have those watchdogs keeping us safe from those terrorist palms and ferns.  

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GoatLockerGuns
10 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

I don't recall having noticed any Washingtonias in Medford (but there could easily be some, it's a good sized town now).

Yeah, I could easily be miss-remembering as well.  I just remember seeing them a lot further north than I expected on the drive up I-5 to get there.

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Chester B

Ashland is colder than Medford,  a half zone colder, I think its 7B.  So if there are Washies there, they will do fine in Medford.  I don't recall seeing any Washies in Medford when I was there a couple years ago, but I only stopped for lunch on my way to Brookings.

As far as vegetation, it's completely different than what we have up here.  As Mark as described its mostly Oak, Madrone and pine.  Lots of hues of yellow, gold and brown, not so much green in those parts.   I track the weather down there daily, and I can say they get a lot more sun in winter than we do, but many more nights below freezing.  However, those cold nights are brief as the rebound during daytime is much more than what I would see.

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buffy
On 4/22/2022 at 10:10 PM, MarkbVet said:

Just did a quick climate comparison out of curiosity (see what you made me do!):  Dallas area (NE Texas) average winter rain:  Nov= 2 inches, Dec/Jan= 1.5 inches each month, Feb= 2 inches, for a total of 7 inches for those 4 winter months.  

Our rainfall is quite different than Dallas. I live in mixed pine/hardwood forests. We get 10 inches more a year than Dallas. 

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15 hours ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Yeah, I could easily be miss-remembering as well.  I just remember seeing them a lot further north than I expected on the drive up I-5 to get there.

Yes once you get into No. Calif and into the low valley areas out of the mountains, the palm trees start showing up pretty quickly.  I remember seeing them as a kid driving to San Fran for holidays.

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10 hours ago, buffy said:

Our rainfall is quite different than Dallas. I live in mixed pine/hardwood forests. We get 10 inches more a year than Dallas. 

Nice! That bodes well for Mazari palms where I'm headed.   Not sure how much difference there will be between the "Kashmir" cultivar versus regular N. ritchiana though.  Maybe yours is more wet tolerant than the average plant of the species.  Still gotta try 'em, Kashmir or not.  

Edited by MarkbVet

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