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Additional cold hardy palm species to discuss?


MarkbVet

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10 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Well, the PNW encompasses a huge variety of climates, warm to cold, wet to bone dry. Zone 10 to Zone 6 or colder.  Areas with 40-50 inches of rain down to less than 10 inches per year.   I'll be growing my palms outdoors in So. Oregon, where temps average in the 90's for months during the summer, and a long growing season (April to Oct-Nov).  We also don't have your occasional severely frigid spells, where Canadian arctic air sweeps down through the plains to the south lands (no mountains to stop the air where you're at).  Your average winter lows are similar to ours (both in zone 8) but your worst events are far worse than ours.  And that hot humid sultry air is great for Sabals (they don't grow up as fast in our climate) but not good for a lot of other palms, such as Brahea and Jubaea. 

I just checked your weather a bit so people can help advise you, and it looks like 50% of years are mid 20's low and 50% have a mid-upper teens low.  Lowest recent was 12F in 2017 on Weather Underground or 14F on 2013 via current results

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@tntropics - 60+ In-ground 7A palms - (Sabal) minor(7 large + 27 seedling size, 3 dwarf),  brazoria(1) , birmingham(4), etonia (1) louisiana(5), palmetto (1), riverside (1),  (Trachycarpus) fortunei(7), wagnerianus(1),  Rhapidophyllum hystrix(7),  15' Mule-Butia x Syagrus(1),  Blue Butia capitata(1) +Tons of tropical plants.  Recent Yearly Lows -1F, 12F, 11F, 18F, 16F, 3F, 3F, 6F, 3F, 1F, 16F, 17F, 6F, 8F

 

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1 hour ago, Allen said:

I just checked your weather a bit so people can help advise you, and it looks like 50% of years are mid 20's low and 50% have a mid-upper teens low.  Lowest recent was 12F in 2017 on Weather Underground or 14F on 2013 via current results

Yes, what you are describing is zone 8a to perfection.   Actually, mostly zone 8b-9a, with occasional drops to zone 8a.  Those are very brief lows with calm weather, not the blizzard type windy cold you see sometimes back in the south-central U.S. when they get their rare severe weather episodes.  Butias and Washingtonias appear to survive the weather in Medford/Jacksonville, including those events you just mentioned.   It's not cold stormy weather.    Minimal snow,  still air (not windy), clear weather/cold night situations with no cloud cover to keep it warmer.   Those brief cold/clear night lows that So. Oregon can occasionally get aren't as unfriendly as what they can see in Texas during a palmageddon event.  I lived in So. Oregon for a long time (back  before global warming) so am quite familiar with the weather patterns there.  Even in the 1980's, Washingtonias were surviving in Ashland for many years (higher elevation/colder than Medford). 

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4 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

@MarkbVet I know you've done some research on the Braheas, I'm thinking about ordering a couple if Fairview ships them... which one do you think is best suited for up here?  Decumbens looks interesting. 

Decumbens should be good (the main issue with it and B. armata would be the winter wet).  B. clara is more wet tolerant and still cold hardy, so may be the best one here-- and very pretty.   The problem is finding one!   Let me know if you  get a good source!  Armata and decumbens also grow really slowly; clara is quite a bit faster.

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On 4/11/2022 at 9:53 PM, Jesse PNW said:

Do you have references for this?  Based on what I can see from palmpedia, the shape of the fronds looks quite different. 

There are apparently a few differences as I understand it, including the fronds.  I believe the seeds are also bigger on the palm formerly known as Sabal miamiensis than on the Sabal etoniaSabal etonia was first published as a species in the Bulletin of the Torrey Botanical Club in 1896 by Swingle.  A copy of the paper is attached here: 1457797i00008001.pdf.  Scott Zona identified Sabal miamiensis as a separate and distinct species in a paper published in the journal Brittonia in 1985.  A copy of the paper is attached here: Sabal_miamiensis_PA.pdf.  A paper discussing plant extinction and rediscovery was published in the journal Nature Ecology & Evolution in 2019 by Humphreys et al.  I have not found a free copy of that paper; however, as I understand it, it was discussing a much broader topic than just genera/species taxonomy and naming conventions.  Apparently, somewhere in the paper the author(s) presented some sort of evidence that Sabal miamiensis was not a distinct species from Sabal etonia.  The full paper citation is here:  Humphreys, A.M., Govaerts, R., Ficinski, S.Z., Nic Lughadha, E. & Vorontsova, M.S. (2019). Global dataset shows geography and life form predict modern plant extinction and rediscovery Nature Ecology & Evolution 3: 1043-1047 (if you can find a free copy of it, or want to pay to read it).  That is the way it goes in botany apparently.  A species is only officially a species in so far as the last accepted published paper says it is.  Officially, it seems that Sabal miamiensis was considered a species from 1985 to 2019, but no more.  Unofficially, you can call it whatever you want.

 

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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22 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Well, the PNW encompasses a huge variety of climates, warm to cold, wet to bone dry. Zone 10 to Zone 6 or colder.  Areas with 40-50 inches of rain down to less than 10 inches per year.   I'll be growing my palms outdoors in So. Oregon, where temps average in the 90's for months during the summer, and a long growing season (April to Oct-Nov).  We also don't have your occasional severely frigid spells, where Canadian arctic air sweeps down through the plains to the south lands (no mountains to stop the air where you're at).  Your average winter lows are similar to ours (both in zone 8) but your worst events are far worse than ours.  And that hot humid sultry air is great for Sabals (they don't grow up as fast in our climate) but not good for a lot of other palms, such as Brahea and Jubaea. 

So you're at a disadvantage with many species of palms, despite your warm humid summer nights.   And those bad freeze episodes you occasionally get, well, those events don't happen in So. Oregon much at all, and it's dry (19 inches of rain yearly, down to 10-12 inches in a dry year).  Washingtonias do ok there, and I am confident that a bunch of other palms will too:   Brahea armata,  B. decumbens, B. clara, Butia odorata and its hybrids,  Chamaerops humilis, Trachcarpus (fortunei, takil, princeps, wagnerianus),  Trithrinax campestris,  Jubaea and its hybrids, multiple Sabal species (I've got 5 or 6), Rhapidophyllum hystrix, etc etc.   Nearly all of these have a strong chance at surviving (and thriving) down there. It's a very California-like, Mediterranean climate zone.  Cacti and other desert plants love it there too, which suits me fine!   I have over 200 varieties of desert plants (unprotected) in my zone 8, really wet Portland area yard, where people said it can't be done.  I'm used to being a zone-buster lol.   We'll see how it goes when I move south and plant my palms!   The key is:  there's a huge difference between Seattle Washington and Medford Oregon, even though they are both (just barely) within the PNW.     

One question:  which Trachycarpus hybrids were you referring to?  Haven't heard that much about hybridization within that genus.   I'd be interested, IF there are some cool looking plants that show significant phenotypic variation from the usual species.  If they just look like T. fortunei more or less, then I'd not see much advantage in them. 

Thanks for your input, as always!  It's great to hear from experienced growers in other parts of the U.S. 

Your talking to a Climatologist. What city are you planning to grow these palms in the perfect climate your referring to? 

Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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42 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

Your talking to a Climatologist. What city are you planning to grow these palms in the perfect climate your referring to? 

Ah, do you work in meteorology? I'm preaching at the choir!  My apologies! Lol nothing is 'perfect' of course, just better than the Portland area I'm in now.   The area I'll be moving (back) to is near Medford, Oregon.   The Rogue Valley, warmest area in Oregon (or the Pacific Northwest, for that matter).  It's got its own microclimate, different than anything else in Oregon.   No one outside of the So. Oregon region is typically familiar with it.  You have to go south to Redding or Red Bluff in Northern California to find hotter weather on the west coast.  

I'm still curious:   Which Trachycarpus hybrids were you thinking of in your prior post??  

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16 hours ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Sabal etonia was first published as a species in the Bulletin of the Torrey Botanical Club in 1896 by Swingle.

CORRECTION: Sabal etonia was first published by George V. Nash in the aforementioned paper, who credited Walter T. Swingle as the discoverer (hence the credit citation "Swingle ex Nash"). It was part of a larger article he wrote entitled "Notes on some Florida Plants."  The entire article (including the discussion on Sabal etonia) is attached here: 1458093i00008001.pdf.

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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On 4/14/2022 at 12:15 AM, Jesse PNW said:

@MarkbVet我知道你对布雷西亚做了一些研究,如果美景镇发货的话,我想订购一些...你认为哪一个最适合这里?卧姿看起来很有趣。

It's said that mule's paws are cold resistant, but I can't get seeds in ChinaIt's said that mule's paws are cold resistant, but I can't get seeds in China
It's said that mule palms paws are cold resistant, but I can't get seeds in China,I really want it,But our customs doesn't allow it.
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1 hour ago, ShiYi2022 said:

It's said that mule palms paws are cold resistant, but I can't get seeds in China,I really want it,But our customs doesn't allow it.

If you can get Butia odorata and Syagrus romanzoffiana, you might be able to grow them to maturity and do your own hybridization.

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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On 4/13/2022 at 1:25 AM, MarkbVet said:

One question:  which Trachycarpus hybrids were you referring to?  Haven't heard that much about hybridization within that genus.   I'd be interested, IF there are some cool looking plants that show significant phenotypic variation from the usual species.  If they just look like T. fortunei more or less, then I'd not see much advantage in them. 

When I started getting into palms, I couldn't tell one species of Trachycarpus from the next to save my life.  Now the differences in species* usually stand out, and I'm trying to grow various Trachy's from seed since they're often hard to find as living plants.  But I still think to any non-Trachycarpus enthusiast, they'll just see a bunch of the same thing.  So if you're searching for palms to create different impressions/statements, subtle differences within the Trachycarpus genus may not be what you're looking for.  

Additionally, Trachy hybrids just aren't common.  I've got some nova x wagnerianus seeds that I have no idea how they'll look.  I keep hearing about a wag/nanus hybrid which sounds like it would make a great understory palm, but I have yet to see one, let alone find seed.  Garry Tsen sent me some seeds from a "new Trachycarpus" that "may be a nanus hybrid".  I sure hope they germinate for me, and maybe we'll see. 

*I'm still not convinced that scientists/botanists know the difference between species, subspecies, variation, form, type, etc.  To this day, with all the genetic cataloging that has been done, the experts still can't even agree on genus in some cases. 

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36 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

When I started getting into palms, I couldn't tell one species of Trachycarpus from the next to save my life.  Now the differences in species* usually stand out, and I'm trying to grow various Trachy's from seed since they're often hard to find as living plants.  But I still think to any non-Trachycarpus enthusiast, they'll just see a bunch of the same thing.  So if you're searching for palms to create different impressions/statements, subtle differences within the Trachycarpus genus may not be what you're looking for.  

Additionally, Trachy hybrids just aren't common.  I've got some nova x wagnerianus seeds that I have no idea how they'll look.  I keep hearing about a wag/nanus hybrid which sounds like it would make a great understory palm, but I have yet to see one, let alone find seed.  Garry Tsen sent me some seeds from a "new Trachycarpus" that "may be a nanus hybrid".  I sure hope they germinate for me, and maybe we'll see. 

*I'm still not convinced that scientists/botanists know the difference between species, subspecies, variation, form, type, etc.  To this day, with all the genetic cataloging that has been done, the experts still can't even agree on genus in some cases. 

Yes, that's because the classification process is at some level somewhat arbitrary, depending on which traits you emphasize (or not), which things you consider important/different enough to justify splitting the plant into separate species (or combining different ones into a single species, with variations).   That's not to say it's totally arbitrary and without merit; it's certainly a worthwhile endeavor, and botanists (or zoologists) usually have good reasons for what they decide.  The old guideline (in zoology at least) that separate species are defined partially because they can't interbreed & produce fertile offspring-- well, exceptions have been found in animals, and in botany, separate species can quite often hybridize and produce fertile offspring, so that's not a good rule for determining whether 2 plants are indeed the same species. 

Genetic studies of the plants can help determine species separations too.  But even there, things can get fuzzy.  For instance, some distinct appearing plants are found to be basically the same genetically, but one type may be diploid (2 sets of chromosomes) and the other type is tetraploid (4 sets of chromososomes), likely due to an error in reproduction/cell division at some point that duplicated the plant's DNA-- a fatal flaw in an animal, but livable with plants (though they make look quite different).  So they are probably the same species, but with a mutation that altered chromosome numbers.  They look phenotypically distinct-- how do we classify those?  2 species?  Subspecies?    

An animal example of difficulties in classification:  there are frog populations along the Mississippi river; the most southern population is phenotypically distinct from the most northern population, and they can't interbreed-- so 2 different species.  But...  there is a gradual change in the frog population from north to south, with slow changes in appearance and genetics--  you can breed any 2 frogs together that originated within 50 miles of each other, all along the Mississippi from north to south, and they're fertile.  But take the extreme northern & southern populations, and they differ enough to qualify as different species (and aren't fertile together).  How do you classify that mess?   It's basically a species that is showing diversification to the point where the 2 extremes have now become separate species, by any usual definition.  But how do we classify the stages in between?    Subspecies?  There is no distinct cutoff point, just gradual change over a wide geographic area.  Muddy waters indeed, classification-wise.  

So botanists know what species, subspecies, genera, etc are 'supposed to be'...but plants & animals sometimes show gradations of variation in between the distinct categories we like to assign. Species/subspecies are still very useful concepts, and in the majority of cases, they are a fairly accurate way to think about living things, including microbes, plants, and animals.  The totality of nature is just a bit more complex than that. 

I know at least one person on palmtalk said they recently bought a waggie/nanus hybrid.   They're both kinda small/slow growing compared to other types, so I guess if you want a really small Trachy, then ok...  For me,  I'd love to get a true "nova" as they seem to look distinct, really thin trunks/long petioles and big leaves,  very drawn-out looking compared to usual T. fortunei.  There are some variants of fortunei that may be fun too... very furry fat trunks,  or thin trunks with large leaves, etc.  Different enough to catch the eye.  Another trachy hybrid that may be hardy and distinctive looking is T. wagnerianus X T. princeps... supposedly fast growth, hardy, and the pale leaf backs from princeps. 

Edited by MarkbVet
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For me anyway … the only Trachycarpus hybrids that would really interest me are hybrids that encompass the  more tropical species  with more hardy species. Sort of a Trachycarpus “mule”. 
 

for instance a Trachycarpus maritanus x Trachycarpus princeps would be appealing to me… 

 

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When I look for cold hardy palms I think

”what look do I want? What cold hardy species fit that look?”

ex. Chamadorea costaricana could be swapped for trunking c radicalis

sabal mauritiformis looks beautiful in Hawaii but a healthy sabal Bermudana will sub in quite nicely.

still looking for a coconut sub…. I have 4 butia x parajubaea 2 butia x jubaea x syagrus and 2 beccariophoenix Alfredii 

none seem to be doing the trick<_<

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29 minutes ago, Tropicdoc said:

When I look for cold hardy palms I think

”what look do I want? What cold hardy species fit that look?”

ex. Chamadorea costaricana could be swapped for trunking c radicalis

sabal mauritiformis looks beautiful in Hawaii but a healthy sabal Bermudana will sub in quite nicely.

still looking for a coconut sub…. I have 4 butia x parajubaea 2 butia x jubaea x syagrus and 2 beccariophoenix Alfredii 

none seem to be doing the trick<_<

Your bxbj must be getting pretty big by now !

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Maybe 8 feet to tip of tallest fronds

no trunk yet guess I need new pics

this shot is from April 1. You can see the shade b x p over to the left

0FFF3DEB-8C8C-42F4-A54D-0C14E84985C3.jpeg

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12 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

If you can get Butia odorata and Syagrus romanzoffiana, you might be able to grow them to maturity and do your own hybridization.

 

Your idea is very good, but the Butia odorata in China is not big, Because it has only been introduced into China for 10 years.These are the largest trees in China(picture),You can see that they grow very ordinary,I heard that many trees died. They are very cold resistant, but maybe they are not suitable for the climate of high temperature and humidity

 

 

 

 

IMG_9153(20220415-233457).JPG

IMG_9154(20220415-233545).JPG

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@ShiYi2022

The palms in the foreground of the photos look like Jubaea chilensis rather than Butia odorata, although I do see a few Butia in the background of the first photo.

Jubaea doesn't do very well here in Florida in the average case.  There are a few exceptions.  Butia is a lot more adapted to our environment. 

Does Syagrus romanzoffiana grow well there?

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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6 hours ago, Tropicdoc said:

When I look for cold hardy palms I think

”what look do I want? What cold hardy species fit that look?”

ex. Chamadorea costaricana could be swapped for trunking c radicalis

sabal mauritiformis looks beautiful in Hawaii but a healthy sabal Bermudana will sub in quite nicely.

still looking for a coconut sub…. I have 4 butia x parajubaea 2 butia x jubaea x syagrus and 2 beccariophoenix Alfredii 

none seem to be doing the trick<_<

In zone 9..maybe a canary island date palm?

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11 hours ago, Tropicdoc said:

2 beccariophoenix Alfredii 

I think once these palms get going imo they are much nicer then Coconuts. Very stately palms hoping to get mine in the ground this year and a couple mild winters to follow =) 

T J 

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T J 

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10 hours ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

I think once these palms get going imo they are much nicer then Coconuts. Very stately palms hoping to get mine in the ground this year and a couple mild winters to follow =) 

T J 

B alfredii in 9a loop like coconuts in 9b (alive but not healthy)

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16 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

In zone 9..maybe a canary island date palm?

Thick trunk kills the look.

I’ve seen some (possibly hybrids) with that beautiful green canopy and a thinner trunk around here.

wish I had one of those…..or 3 or 4

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Check out my neighbors CIDP. His house is three stories so that gives you an idea how tall it is. 
there are lots of tall phoenix dactylifera in New Orleans that give kind of a coconut vibe but the thin silver fronds don’t quite do it

image.jpg

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22 hours ago, RJ said:

Your bxbj must be getting pretty big by now !

Ok so maybe only 7 feet to top of fronds!

^_^

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Just now, Tropicdoc said:

Ok so maybe only 7 feet to top of fronds!

^_^

They are so beat up From the hurricane

im grateful to still have them 

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20 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

@ShiYi2022

The palms in the foreground of the photos look like Jubaea chilensis rather than Butia odorata, although I do see a few Butia in the background of the first photo.

Jubaea doesn't do very well here in Florida in the average case.  There are a few exceptions.  Butia is a lot more adapted to our environment. 

Does Syagrus romanzoffiana grow well there?

Syagrus romanzoffiana has performed very well here. I just got a beccariophoenix alfredii Palm this year,Do you know its cold resistance or maintenance methods?

O1CN01Ay9A2I1bWgHl2IkLd_!!74283473.jpg_400x400.jpg

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1 hour ago, ShiYi2022 said:

I just got a beccariophoenix alfredii Palm this year,Do you know its cold resistance or maintenance methods?

Here they require no maintenance.  Just plant them and they grow.  As far as cold goes, there are a lot of observations in the Cold Hardiness Observation Master Data spreadsheet.  The general pattern that stands out to me is that damage tends to start at or around 25F and death tends to happen in the high teens and low 20s.

Lakeland, FL

USDA Zone 1990: 9a  2012: 9b  2023: 10a | Sunset Zone: 26 | Record Low: 20F/-6.67C (Jan. 1985, Dec.1962) | Record Low USDA Zone: 9a

30-Year Avg. Low: 30F | 30-year Min: 24F

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41 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Here they require no maintenance.  Just plant them and they grow.  As far as cold goes, there are a lot of observations in the Cold Hardiness Observation Master Data spreadsheet.  The general pattern that stands out to me is that damage tends to start at or around 25F and death tends to happen in the high teens and low 20s.

Yep they are very tolerant of drought and infertile soil. They don’t grow very fast which is the bummer for here….. 8 fronds get cold damage and it only regrows 5 before the next winter….

they have a tendency to be wobbly and even disconnect from the roots and die so you have to keep mounding soil around the base and stake the palm till it gets going.

six foot brick wall in pictures 

image.jpg

image.jpg

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